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[Saucy_Jack]

The videos with his comments in this thread show one of the reasons I can't bring myself to feel that much sympathy for him -he's just so sleazy and inappropriate, and constantly bitter towards Hawke (though it's not Hawke's fault he's had such a rough life). He takes it out on everyone around him, and that makes him a arsehole.

[congokong]

Gamlen's a scheming liar who happens to be very bad at it, a similar problem Petrice had, but for very different reasons. And because Gamlen's a loser this draws sympathy from many players. While he has some redeeming qualities such as helping fix his mess to his limited ability (ex: taking Leandra in), he is very unlikable. The best case was when you choose the witty response after he admits losing everything chasing the Gem of Korroshak. He snaps at you calling you a self-righteous ass who had no rightful claim to the Amell wealth; all without preamble.

 

Apologists will cite that he has reasons for his unlikable qualities, but everyone has reasons for being the way they are. It doesn't change what he is.

[straykat]

I love this dude. He's a symbol of everything that's missing in DAI.

 

 

 

OK, maybe not that. But there's a kernel of truth there.

[sylvanaerie]

Gamlen is an ass, but he's got Teagan's voice actor.  Sometimes I'd talk to him just to hear him speak.  I think he did the best he could with the situation he had.  He will insist he didn't just throw away the money in buckets, though I think he spent more than a few coins at the Blooming Rose on wine, women and song.  He's the second born, second best in his parents' eyes, but at least he stuck around and took care of their ungrateful asses.  The Amell parents and Leandra come off as 'entitled' nobles to me, expecting the world to owe them a living.

 

By Act 2, when Leandra dies he seems more like an uncle and less like an unpleasant lodestone.  And I introduce his daughter to him in Act 3.  That was a sweet scene.

 

She should check her pockets after each visit though 

[congokong]

Gamlen is an ass, but he's got Teagan's voice actor.  Sometimes I'd talk to him just to hear him speak.  I think he did the best he could with the situation he had.  He will insist he didn't just throw away the money in buckets, though I think he spent more than a few coins at the Blooming Rose on wine, women and song.  He's the second born, second best in his parents' eyes, but at least he stuck around and took care of their ungrateful asses.  The Amell parents and Leandra come off as 'entitled' nobles to me, expecting the world to owe them a living.

 

By Act 2, when Leandra dies he seems more like an uncle and less like an unpleasant lodestone.  And I introduce his daughter to him in Act 3.  That was a sweet scene.

 

She should check her pockets after each visit though 

One of the few things I'm more with Carver on than Bethany was his disinterest in their grandparents. They sounded like very unlikable people. It's true that familiarity breeds contempt, and that could be why they gave all the inheritance to Leandra (who wasn't there), but it's completely unacceptable to give Gamlen nothing when he was there for them. Like him or not, he should have gotten most of the wealth for not abandoning the family. It's always possible there was more we don't know about because Gamlen is a known liar. Who knows if he stole from them, how much he really helped, etc.

 

As for Gamlen's estranged daughter, I never reunited them. I disliked her too much after she tried pulling that manipulative scheme on Gamlen instead of simply knocking on his door. And Gamlen treats you so poorly after you find that letter I find it hard to care about reuniting them.

[Illegitimus]

They did leave Gamlen a stipend.  They just wanted Leandra to administer it because Gamlen is blatantly not up to managing his own financial affairs.  

[straykat]

As for Gamlen's estranged daughter, I never reunited them. I disliked her too much after she tried pulling that manipulative scheme on Gamlen instead of simply knocking on his door. And Gamlen treats you so poorly after you find that letter I find it hard to care about reuniting them.

 

Harsh. I thought she and the quest were funny. So I like wrapping it up on a light note.

 

"What's a Veld?"

[Ghost Gal]

Gamlen is an ass, but he's got Teagan's voice actor.  Sometimes I'd talk to him just to hear him speak.  I think he did the best he could with the situation he had.  He will insist he didn't just throw away the money in buckets, though I think he spent more than a few coins at the Blooming Rose on wine, women and song.  He's the second born, second best in his parents' eyes, but at least he stuck around and took care of their ungrateful asses.  The Amell parents and Leandra come off as 'entitled' nobles to me, expecting the world to owe them a living.

 

Yeah... that's the main reason I both sympathize with Gamlen and feel less sympathetic for Leandra more than the game intended.

 

Gamlen may be a sleazy, scheming, womanizing gambler, but you know what? At least he stayed. At least he took care of his dying parents. At least he tried to increase the family's fortune (boneheaded though his investments were) instead of just dumping it on someone else like Leandra did. He even took his runaway sister in despite how she abandoned him years ago, left him to take care of the life she left behind without offering any help (for years), then didn't show the least amount of gratitude for the help he could offer when she turned up on his doorstep years later.

 

I could sympathize with Leandra more if she wasn't so freaking self-entitled about everything.

 

Leandra: My children deserve to be among the nobility! Not in indentured servitude!

Me: Then why did you leave the nobility for the life of a commoner years ago?

 

Leandra: I still can't believe father didn't leave me anything.

Gamlen: You don't get to run off and still be the favorite, Leandra.

Leandra: I'm still their daughter. The eldest.

Me: In other words, "I exist, therefore I deserve it."

 

I could sympathize with Leandra a lot more if she at least had the humility to acknowledge, "Yes, I chose to leave everything behind years ago, so it's not exactly fair/realistic of me to just expect it all to be waiting for me like I never left," or that her brother got the raw end of the stick. But she never does. Any time Gamlen tries to point out that she chose to leave the old life behind, she brushes it off and goes back to that whole, "I deserve it just because I want it" mentality, and I think, "No, the world doesn't owe you anything. Roll up your sleeves and work like the rest of us."

 

One of the few things I'm more with Carver on than Bethany was his disinterest in their grandparents. They sounded like very unlikable people. It's true that familiarity breeds contempt, and that could be why they gave all the inheritance to Leandra (who wasn't there), but it's completely unacceptable to give Gamlen nothing when he was there for them. Like him or not, he should have gotten most of the wealth for not abandoning the family. 

 

That's how I see it.

[Qun00]

My only beef with Leandra is that she gets upset when Gamlen suggests that she should find a job.

It's just the least that is expected from... anyone.

[straykat]

My only beef with Leandra is that she gets upset when Gamlen suggests that she should find a job.

It's just the least that is expected from... anyone.

 

What does Gamlen do anyways? They both look old..

 

And Hawke and sibling are indentured servants... and they still live in a hovel. There's a reason for her to grumble, I think.

[Ghost Gal]

What does Gamlen do anyways? They both look old..

 

And Hawke and sibling are indentured servants... and they still live in a hovel. 

 

They live in a hovel with free room and board. And they willingly entered indentured servitude to get into the city, since it was the only way to get into the city.

 

Everyone said, "Gamlen! Get us into the city! Get us into the city!" He did, then they whined for over a year that it wasn't the way they wanted... but still refused to come up with their own plan to get into the city or move somewhere else, or to get a job, move out, and get their own place once the year of indentured servitude was up. (You'd think Leandra would have at least taken on a part-time job to generate some extra income if she was really worried about her kids.)

 

There's a reason for her to grumble, I think.

 

But not enough for her to get off her butt and get a job, apparently. 

 

Leandra's really good at complaining that her situation isn't to her liking, but the moment someone suggests she do something about it ("Why don't you go to the mansion and ask the slavers for our parents' will if you want it so bad?" asks Gamlen, "Why don't you get a job and start paying rent?"), she balks and insists that someone else should have to do it. (Gamlen should magically make her family's influence and fortune reappear, some Viscount should acknowledge that some piece of paper says she's entitled to live in a mansion instead of getting a job to pay her own way, Hawke and Sibling should risk their lives to strike gold in the Deep Roads to afford some mansion in Hightown instead of starting over somewhere else where everyone can be safe, etc.)

 

For all her grumbling, Leandra never comes up with a solution or volunteers to take on any responsibilities or generate income to lighten the load for her family members.

[straykat]

Everyone said, "Gamlen! Get us into the city! Get us into the city!" He did, then they whined for over a year that it wasn't the way they wanted..

 

I don't know what they did over a year. And I think they were almost out of hope by the time we do see them. The Expedition was supposed to be a last ditch attempt. They must've tried other things before that.

 

In any case, I like the drama that we see though. I'm not going to hold it against Leandra too much (or Gamlen for that matter). Or expect her to not complain. They live in a shithole. She's no different than the dog trying to dig out and Hawke smelling the mysterious object in Gamlen's room. All of the desperation is supposed to be funny. I don't want to analyze Leandra too much about it. It's just all there to color the situation.

[sylvanaerie]

Yeah... that's the main reason I both sympathize with Gamlen and feel less sympathetic for Leandra more than the game intended.

 

Gamlen may be a sleazy, scheming, womanizing gambler, but you know what? At least he stayed. At least he took care of his dying parents. At least he tried to increase the family's fortune (boneheaded though his investments were) instead of just dumping it on someone else like Leandra did. He even took his runaway sister in despite how she abandoned him years ago, left him to take care of the life she left behind without offering any help (for years), then didn't show the least amount of gratitude for the help he could offer when she turned up on his doorstep years later.

 

I could sympathize with Leandra more if she wasn't so freaking self-entitled about everything.

 

Leandra: My children deserve to be among the nobility! Not in indentured servitude!

Me: Then why did you leave the nobility for the life of a commoner years ago?

 

Leandra: I still can't believe father didn't leave me anything.

Gamlen: You don't get to run off and still be the favorite, Leandra.

Leandra: I'm still their daughter. The eldest.

Me: In other words, "I exist, therefore I deserve it."

 

I could sympathize with Leandra a lot more if she at least had the humility to acknowledge, "Yes, I chose to leave everything behind years ago, so it's not exactly fair/realistic of me to just expect it all to be waiting for me like I never left," or that her brother got the raw end of the stick. But she never does. Any time Gamlen tries to point out that she chose to leave the old life behind, she brushes it off and goes back to that whole, "I deserve it just because I want it" mentality, and I think, "No, the world doesn't owe you anything. Roll up your sleeves and work like the rest of us."

 

 

That's how I see it.

 

The only grief I got with Gamlen is how he went on about how their parents hated Leandra for leaving, making her feel like they died angry with her.  In the end it seemed more like she didn't care so much about the money as about the idea that they never forgave her.  When it was a lie.  No one wants to think their parent died hating them, and that's what Gamlen did to Leandra, when all it would have taken would have been 1 letter to her.  Or he could have said something when they came back, but he was too full of jealous rage.  He could have said "They forgave you in the end", but he couldn't even be arsed to do that much.  

 

I get she fell in love and they had to run away (the circumstances are explained better in Legacy).  Had he remained in Kirkwall, Malcolm would have been lucky to see his children through plate glass.  And ever after, Hawke and/or Bethany would have been under templar scrutiny from their family's strong magical genetics mixed with an actual mage.  Returning meant taking a great risk, so much so that only the threat of the Blight made them go back, to the only place Leandra could think of that might provide them a home.

 

She's an entitled noble who feels the world owes her a living, but Gamlen did some pretty douchenozzle moves in the name of sibling rivalry.  And comes off as pretty entitled himself.

 

Ultimately, he loved his sister though, his grief at her death wasn't feigned, and his concern for Hawke then was the only time I actually liked him (except for when I introduce him to Charade).  I had to wonder why Hawke didn't just move Gamlen back to the estate.  It was certainly big enough, and Gamlen was family.

 

Gamlen was written as flawed and human and for that I can really appreciate the writing that went into him.  They made him a pretty unsympathetic character, but I tend to think he was ultimately, only human.

[sniper_arrow]

They live in a hovel with free room and board. And they willingly entered indentured servitude to get into the city, since it was the only way to get into the city.

 

Everyone said, "Gamlen! Get us into the city! Get us into the city!" He did, then they whined for over a year that it wasn't the way they wanted... but still refused to come up with their own plan to get into the city or move somewhere else, or to get a job, move out, and get their own place once the year of indentured servitude was up. (You'd think Leandra would have at least taken on a part-time job to generate some extra income if she was really worried about her kids.)

 

 

 

 

But not enough for her to get off her butt and get a job, apparently. 

 

Leandra's really good at complaining that her situation isn't to her liking, but the moment someone suggests she do something about it ("Why don't you go to the mansion and ask the slavers for our parents' will if you want it so bad?" asks Gamlen, "Why don't you get a job and start paying rent?"), she balks and insists that someone else should have to do it. (Gamlen should magically make her family's influence and fortune reappear, some Viscount should acknowledge that some piece of paper says she's entitled to live in a mansion instead of getting a job to pay her own way, Hawke and Sibling should risk their lives to strike gold in the Deep Roads to afford some mansion in Hightown instead of starting over somewhere else where everyone can be safe, etc.)

 

For all her grumbling, Leandra never comes up with a solution or volunteers to take on any responsibilities or generate income to lighten the load for her family members.

 

I think it has something to do with Leandra's pride. From Bethany and Hawke's banter in Legacy:

 

Bethany: I've tried to get mother to look for work, or reconnect with some of her childhood friends. But she went to visit the Comte de Launcet once, and now she refuses to try again. She says it's just "too pathetic."

[JJ Likeaprayer]

Gamlen looks like he's stone cold,but there's a little bit of fire in him...I see that,he's not a bad person. He kept Leandra company while Hawke was busy out there exploring...anyone can be like that when suddenly 3 grown people and a big dog moved in your tiny little apartment,even family members.But I like him...not a lot but I don't hate him one bit.

[Catilina]

Gamlen is a burned-out old Carver...

[kimgoold]

I don't think he's that bad. Granted, I haven't played the game so much as looked at detailed walkthroughs on Youtube, but I got the impression that the game wanted us to hate him more than they gave us reasons to hate him.

 

Apparently, we're supposed to hate him for "stealing" Leandra's inheritance, yet she chose to give it up years ago and never came back until she wanted something. (Gotta love people who don't give but expect to get.) Apparently we're supposed to hate him for "selling the Hawke children into indentured servitude," yet they asked him to get them into the city and it was the only way they could get into the city. Apparently we're supposed to hate him for asking Leandra to pay rent, but she had been sitting around doing nothing in his house for a year, so by that point I thought it was totally fair to ask her to either start pitching in or move out.

 

Granted, it was wrong of Gamlen to take his sister's inheritance and fritter it away, but I felt that he made a good point that she chose to give it up when she left and didn't help him take care of their parents or run the estate in the two and a half decades since she ran off, so how much did she really deserve it?

 

In fact, I personally think Leandra and the Hawke siblings come across as rather self-entitled and ungrateful (in that they seem to feel Gamlen owes them that lifestyle and passage into the city and free room and board, and they shouldn't have to say "thank you" or do anything in return), so that really decreases my outrage over his supposed theft.

Yes, yes and yes. I really wanted to slap the entire lot of Hawkes for their entitled attitudes, I'm no fan of Gamlen but i disliked Leandra more. I agree it sucks he lost the family fortune and holdings but Leandra threw it away when she left! to slink back years later and demand her inheritance is just incredibly arrogant.

[Ghost Gal]

The only grief I got with Gamlen is how he went on about how their parents hated Leandra for leaving, making her feel like they died angry with her. ..  No one wants to think their parent died hating them, and that's what Gamlen did to Leandra, when all it would have taken would have been 1 letter to her.  Or he could have said something when they came back, but he was too full of jealous rage.  He could have said "They forgave you in the end", but he couldn't even be arsed to do that much.  

 

It's true that he was wrong to do that.

 

On the other hand, I feel like he was really hurt and angry by how his parents discarded him and openly favored his sister even after she ran off with an apostate (which further hurt their family's already sinking prestige in Kirkwall after their cousin popped out dozens of mage babies, Warden Amell among them), so I think on some level he wanted her to experience that pain for herself. After a lifetime of their parents favoring her, he wanted her to know how it feels when her parents don't think the sun rises every time she enters a room then sets when she leaves.

 

He probably also felt like her parents should have been angry with her after the stunt she pulled. Which, to be honest, I can't fully blame him for.

 

It's not right, but on the other hand I can sympathize because I come from a family where favoritism is a huge problem. I've seen and experienced first-hand how devastating it is for kids who try to do everything "right" and still not get as much love, attention, or appreciation as siblings who didn't work as hard or didn't care as much, yet still get all or most of the love, attention, praise, presents, toys, sweets, opportunities, whatever. (It's like the story of the prodigal son but from the dutiful son's perspective.) And I've seen how that pain carries over into adulthood. How it's something you never really "get over." How part of you will always ache and yearn for the love or attention or whatever you didn't get when you were younger, and part of you will always resent your sibling for getting treated better than you, even if you know "logically" X, Y or Z. Again, it wasn't right of Gamlen to give into his resentment, but at the same time I understand where he's coming from.

 

In the end it seemed more like she didn't care so much about the money as about the idea that they never forgave her.

 

No. I'm sorry, but no.

 

Leandra did care about the money. Maybe not exclusively, but she cared about it at least as much as knowing her parents forgave her, if not more so. All she did from the moment she arrived in Kirkwall was complain about how she and her kids weren't being treated to the lifestyle she expected to find, and she mainly nagged and criticized Gamlen about the lack of money rather than the lack of forgiveness from her parents. Like I said, she complains, "My children deserve to be among the nobility! Not indentured servitude," and "I still can't believe father didn't leave me anything (i.e. money)... I'm still their daughter, the eldest (i.e. I deserve money)."

 

She kept nagging Gamlen to see the will to see if there was any money left in it for her. As soon as she found out her parents left her everything, including the estate, she didn't say, "At least father didn't die angry with me. Now I can put this away and we can put this behind us." She immediately decided to use the will to petition the Viscount to get back the old Amell Estate (note: after refusing to get a job or pay rent). Then she let Hawke (and potentially sibling) go down into the Deep Roads to seek their fortune instead of saying, "No, your safety is more important than money. Forget Hightown. We'll start a new life somewhere else, where you kids can be safe from Templars and we can make a decent living without you risking your life down there." But she didn't, because she wanted Hightown.

 

In the end, it was about the money as much as it was about the love.

 

And I'd respect Leandra a lot more if she was honest about it. I really can't stand people who preach "love is more important than money," but then complain about not having enough money every two seconds.

 

I get she fell in love and they had to run away (the circumstances are explained better in Legacy).  Had he remained in Kirkwall, Malcolm would have been lucky to see his children through plate glass.  And ever after, Hawke and/or Bethany would have been under templar scrutiny from their family's strong magical genetics mixed with an actual mage.  Returning meant taking a great risk, so much so that only the threat of the Blight made them go back, to the only place Leandra could think of that might provide them a home.

 

That may be so, but ultimately Leandra made her choice.

 

Part of being a noble is adhering to social and family responsibilities. Kirkwall nobility get their money through good standing with other noble families; marrying other families with money, and sealing trade agreements and business investments and transactions with other people with money (which come with good standing; if people with good prospects won't talk to you, you can't make those investments or transactions). She knew her family was losing face because of her cousin having dozens of mage kids, so her parents wanted her to marry de Lancelot to help get the family money and rebuild their status. She chose to elope with an apostate instead.

 

Yeah, she "fell in love," but that's not the be all, end all excuse in her society the way it is in ours. She had a choice: make her parents and neighbors happy by marrying the rich guy from a "good family" to improve her family's standing, or run off with the apostate and hurt her family's reputation further. She chose the latter.

 

And, that's fine. She was happy. Good for her. She chose the man she loved and she chose the life that made her happy.

 

... What I can't get behind is how she returned years later and then just expected the old fortune to be waiting for her like she never left, then complained endlessly about it when told it was gone. I'm sorry, but no. Part of life is making choices and living with the consequences. Part of giving up the fortune for love is the fortune isn't always going to be waiting for you like you never left. Yet, Leandra seems to think she should be able to eat her cake and still have it for later. She seems to think she should be able to blow off the responsibilities and obligations that come with being nobility, yet still enjoy all the wealth, luxury and prestige of nobility whenever she returns. And it's that self-entitled attitude that I can't get behind.

 

She's an entitled noble who feels the world owes her a living, but Gamlen did some pretty douchenozzle moves in the name of sibling rivalry.  And comes off as pretty entitled himself.

 

Maybe, but Gamlen still got a raw deal when you really think of it.

 

From where he's standing, his sister got everything. She got their parents' love and their entire fortune. She ran off while he stayed, yet she remained the favorite while he remained forgotten. She chose her new hubby over coming back to help while he stayed and wiped their bedpans when they were dying of cholera (do you know what that is? It's not pleasant), yet they still called out her name as they died, and left her everything. That hurts.

 

Paraphrasing what Gamlen said in the game, "I'm no longer looking for love... at least I got the money."

 

I just really find the "I should be able to leave whenever I want and still get treated like royalty whenever I return" mentality less sympathetic than "I did everything right and I still got passed over."

 

I think it has something to do with Leandra's pride. From Bethany and Hawke's banter in Legacy:

 

Bethany: I've tried to get mother to look for work, or reconnect with some of her childhood friends. But she went to visit the Comte de Launcet once, and now she refuses to try again. She says it's just "too pathetic."

 

Interesting... Well, there's another strike against Leandra in my book.

 

Yes, yes and yes. I really wanted to slap the entire lot of Hawkes for their entitled attitudes, I'm no fan of Gamlen but i disliked Leandra more. I agree it sucks he lost the family fortune and holdings but Leandra threw it away when she left! to slink back years later and demand her inheritance is just incredibly arrogant.

 

Pretty much. You just summed up what bothers me about Leandra.

[Illegitimus]

One of the few things I'm more with Carver on than Bethany was his disinterest in their grandparents. They sounded like very unlikable people. It's true that familiarity breeds contempt, and that could be why they gave all the inheritance to Leandra (who wasn't there), but it's completely unacceptable to give Gamlen nothing when he was there for them. Like him or not, he should have gotten most of the wealth for not abandoning the family. 

 

 

I believe it wasn't so much about them not thinking he was entitled, as them thinking he was an incompetent who would ****** it all away if he wasn't kept on a leash by a competent trustee.