163 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

 

Allow me to begin by saying, in full knowledge of its futility, that I do not intend for this to be an anti-Dalish or anti-elf thread. I myself am undecided.

 

I understand the position of the Dalish and even support. There is no worthier cause than to preserve your people, your culture, your identity in the face of all antagonism.

However, we now know that the Dalish seek to preserve the worst aspects of ancient Elvhenan. They worship the immortals who enslaved them, yearn for their return, tatoo themselves with slave markings. Even the very act of placing a mage as the leader of the clan is an attempt to imitate a time when immortal super powerful mages enslaved Thedas. They yearn for the return of their masters.

The human equivalent would be Southerners worshipping Magisters after Andraste's death.

 

And yet, these trappings have taken a new meaning in the Dalish. Much like Lavellan tells Solas, the blood writings are no longer meant to be a mark of ownership but rather one of pride and defiance against their enemies.

 

 

Therefore, the question is thus:

Should the Dalish remain as they are today, holding on to all these cultural traits despite their negative conotations because they are what makes them a distinct people?

 

Or should they change their culture entirely so as to not worship the Evanuris and thus no longer exalt their conditions of slaves?

 

[sandalisthemaker]

Unless the Inquisitor goes about telling them that they are wrong about their "gods" and their vallaslin etc, then the Dalish aren't going to know that they are wrong about them. 

 

Unless of course Solas reveals himself and demonstrates his newly acquired power.

[Potato Cat]

I think the advice we gave Velanna is the best. Make up your own stories, give new meaning to old things, etc. Want they want to find and reclaim just isn't there at the end of the day, after all. Look forward, not backwards.

 

Oh and stop having the mages be the leaders. It sets a dangerous precedent should they ever be able to find a new homeland. And vice versa, of course. Just pick the best leaders on their merits.

[sandalisthemaker]

 

Oh and stop having the mages be the leaders. It sets a dangerous precedent should they ever be able to find a new homeland. And vice versa, of course. Just pick the best leaders on their merits.

 

Amen.

[myahele]

I think the advice we gave Velanna is the best. Make up your own stories, give new meaning to old things, etc. 

That's exactly what they've been doing 

[Reznore57]

That's a tough question .

I'm not sure it's a question of "should" , I think it's more a "Can they do it?"...

Myth , stories , tradition have values ... it's like Santa Claus , yes it was probably funnier when you didn't know the truth about Xmas , but once you figure it out , it's just impossible to go back .

You can still have fun but in this case it's not discovering Santa Claus wasn't real but Santa may have been a serial killer...sort of kill the mood for merrymaking.

 

There's also the fact the main person claiming all those things is known as a trickster among the Dalish , so would they even take those new informations seriously , without proof?

 

It's not even like the ancient elves all had the same opinions anyway, in Trespasser you can hear the echo of elves crying "Where are our gods , what did the Dread Wolf do?!!"

Abelas had valasslin and he was a priest , yes he was bound to his Goddess but he still loves and worship her.

You can find an old temple of Dirthamen where the elves all freaked out when he disappeared , they weren't exactly celebrating.

Also the Dalish kind of know their Gods weren't all fluffly and nice , they don't know the tales of cruelty ,but Merrill tells you it's not wise to anger Mythal because she would kill you...

 

I think they would need to see one of their "good" god appearing and killing them while giggling to understand what was going on...

If it's the truth anyway , I mean Solas says Andruil hunted elves for the Lolz , and Falon Din liked to bath in elven blood but again that's just Solas words.

[Potato Cat]

That's exactly what they've been doing 

Well kinda. They've probably found scraps of stories and just assumed and embellished, all the while searching for more of the same to reinforce their vision of what the past was like.

[Xilizhra]

We need to speak to more than one of the Evanuris to make a decision, particularly more than the chronically lying one.

[Dabrikishaw]

They REALLY need to change. That past is not worth recovering or going back to.

[Big I]

Shoul they:

 

a. Worship the immortal mage kings who kept them as slaves and were going to destroy the world? or

 

b.  Worship the human Prophet who freed them from Tevinter slavery and gave them a homeland?

 

Not really much of a dilemma there.

[Xilizhra]

Shoul they:

 

a. Worship the immortal mage kings who kept them as slaves and were going to destroy the world? or

 

b.  Worship the human Prophet who freed them from Tevinter slavery and gave them a homeland?

 

Not really much of a dilemma there.

Well, the real question is whether either one is worthy of worship? And if they did do B, they certainly have no real reason to follow the Chantry instead of forming their own version of Andrastianism.

[Former_Fiend]

The efforts of the Dalish should be concentrated on sticking every arrow they have into Solas' chest cavity and worrying about theological problems after that is accomplished. 

[Ashagar]

Shoul they:

 

a. Worship the immortal mage kings who kept them as slaves and were going to destroy the world? or

 

b.  Worship the human Prophet who freed them from Tevinter slavery and gave them a homeland?

 

Not really much of a dilemma there.

 

The human prophetess worshiping a ancient Tevinter god might be a bit of a hang up because that what the maker is, the creator deity that the ancient northern Neromenians worshiped and the later Tevinter Imperium both believed in and honored with a festival for created the world even as they worshiped the old gods. They might have a bit of a issue with the whole god of the people who enslaved them thing plus the whole chantry declaring holy war after they quite successfully overran and sacked much of Orlais in a war that was admittedly both sides fault.

 

Also it seems to me getting the dalish to believe outsiders is hard enough, getting them to believe their ancient empire was Tevinter mark I with immortal rulers who were quite likely worse than the magisters might be hard sell unless you could provide physical proof to that effect.

[arelenriel]

Shoul they:

 

a. Worship the immortal mage kings who kept them as slaves and were going to destroy the world? or

 

b.  Worship the human Prophet who freed them from Tevinter slavery and gave them a homeland?

 

Not really much of a dilemma there.

B Gave them a homeland and then took it away when the elves did not conform to what the Andrastians expected of them (e.g. worshiping the Maker exclusively, not supporting a Grey Warden treaty that did not take into account the fact they may have already been dealing with the Blight, their entire nation getting punished for what was essentially a p#$%^^g contest between the human Templars and the Emerald Knights over a love affair between two teenagers)

 

IMO -- neither is worth worshiping. The Evanauris were essentially glorified slavers, tyrants, and petty despots who all but abandoned the majority of their people (except Mythal apparently). The Maker is not much better- he essentially abandoned every single one of his followers over the actions of 9 people (The six darkspawnisters who entered the Golden City, and Hessarion and his wife- [converted later after Andraste died]) who did not worship him to begin with- he's essentially been having a temper tantrum over his dead girlfriend and ignoring the needs of his followers for nearly 2000 years- and this has led to the Chantry perverting or sweeping under the carpet nearly everything he taught Andraste and becoming as corrupt as the Evanauris and their so-called "religion" were by the time Arlathan fell. Neither of them is worthy of worshp. Of course in DA4 we will probably find out that the Maker (creator of everything in Thedas) is really El'gar'nan the All Father and the Forgotten Ones, and the Evanauris are really the Old Gods and Avaar/Chasind Spirit gods and humans have been worshiping the Elven gods all along.

[Ashagar]

If anything the fact that the maker doesn't interfere makes him both better and less evil than every god and would be god in the setting because he's the only god that doesn't interfere with the world and its people beyond the act of creating it. if we go by the lore available the Maker was never one for directly interfering with the world beyond creating it, its why the Tevinter started worshiping the old gods in the first place because they did answer prayers. If the chant is to believed even if only in part, he seems to be a stickler for free will and if he actively interfered with the world he would be negatively impacting people's free will.

 

As for the chantry its hardly as corrupt as the Evanauris in fact I would go as far that even the old god worshipping magisters of the old Tevinter Imperium likely weren't as corrupt as the Evanauris judging by just the fragments of tales that survived.

[The Baconer]

I'm sure they'll figure out something.

[Vit246]

I think the advice we gave Velanna is the best. Make up your own stories, give new meaning to old things, etc. Want they want to find and reclaim just isn't there at the end of the day, after all. Look forward, not backwards.

 

Oh and stop having the mages be the leaders. It sets a dangerous precedent should they ever be able to find a new homeland. And vice versa, of course. Just pick the best leaders on their merits.

 

Funny enough, the Dalish DID give new meaning to old things like the Vallaslin. They reclaimed the Vallaslin and re-purposed them from slave markings into symbols of pride and defiance and players mock them for wearing it.

"Look forward, not backwards"

I hear this so much for years and I wonder what exactly do people even mean when they say it. They usually never elaborate beyond that. It seems they kinda expect the Dalish to just throw away everything just because its in the past even though it is all they have left. It is their source of strength and solidarity. Its what keeps them going in a world that would like to snuff them out as a culture..

 

And why should they stop having mages be leaders? It works for them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They care for their mages and their mages care for them in return.

[ComedicSociopathy]

 

Preserve what useful magical knowledge that the old elves created (the eluvians for instance) and accept the cultural ramifications of discovering that your ancestors and gods were essentially Tevinter magisters with big ears, unworthy of worship or emulation. 

 

Really, the Dalish should just become secular historians and stop bothering with attempting to recreate an culture built on slave labor and theft. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

And why should they stop having mages be leaders? It works for them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They care for their mages and their mages care for them in return.

 

A mage should totally be a leader of clan...

 

If they have the merit for it. Just allowing them to lead because their mage is ridiculous. No more so than allowing someone to rule a country just because their daddy or mommy was king or queen before them.

 

Meritocracy is the only way to go. 

[Xilizhra]

A mage should totally be a leader of clan...

 

If they have the merit for it. Just allowing them to lead because their mage is ridiculous. No more so than allowing someone to rule a country just because their daddy or mommy was king or queen before them.

 

Meritocracy is the only way to go. 

This is true, but the Dalish are probably closer to it than any human nation in Thedas as it is. There's already a degree of power-sharing between the mage Keeper and nonmage hahren.

[NoForgiveness]

Both?

 

Instead of clinging to the past they should learn from it, in order to prepare for the future. They should preserve their culture but use it to show their own freedom rather then their devotion to the "gods." 

 

I wont get into my opinions of the ingame gods, as people might not like what that would imply of their own RL gods.

[Wowlock]

Ever since Origins, I knew the past Elves had some dark stuff, because no civilization can become an empire without doing despicable things...and feel superior to others. And then they get brought down by the other races as justified. Then it leaves the prejudices we see today. Elves that suffering today are the result of the past Elves being a-holes but of course they won't tell it that for the future generations so they can create more hate for humans whom are also got shaped by the same experiences in the past...some took the extreme racist path, found power and used it against elves.

 

Someone needs to show the world, no matter how hard it is to believe... Past carries many dark secrets and no race or kingdom is fully innocent. The prejudices,the slaughters, the slavery ? happened on both sides and yet if it is ignored today, people like Solas will benefit from it by manipulating the elves...feeding on their hatred for humans and use them as tools. I don't believe for a second that he cares for his people or he wouldn't have set them up for a second genocide. 

 

Someone needs to show the elves ( and humans too, since they also contribute to their downfall ) blind reverence to beings they do not truly know , only brings bad things for you and the rest of the world. I mean Solas , as we see, is one of their Gods and he wants to destroy the world....the rest of the pantheon killed their kindest member who actually cared for them...and Solas put them behind the Veil ...in the plane of Demons. How smart is it to bring them back from the damn Demon infested plane they are in now , along with destroying the world and start over as Elven overlords again ? Do they thing it will go differently this time ? Isn't there other Gods of other races that will oppose that ? I mean they cannot be that arrogant to claim only elves have real gods and therefore they should rule ? What difference they have from the Humans they hate now ? 

 

I just hope they would give us the option to share the TRUTH about past mistakes so people might understand better and work towards a better future together. Because what I see from Solas' plan, it will only bring back the old stupid vendettas that happened already in the past, ended with GENOCIDE. And win or lose , it will happen again for the elves unless the cycle is broken. 

[Silent X]

I don't think the elves should simply forget or ignore their past, but I think a big adjustment is in order. Playing as an elf inquisitor who started the game as a devout believer in the elven gods, I'd say my character's view (and mine, to be honest) as of Trespasser is that the elves need to know the truth of their history. All of it--that is to say, everything that can be proven now, and everything that has been presented and may or may not be true, all with full acknowledgment of how much they still don't know. My own Lavellan, if given the chance, would speak to as many of her fellow elves as possible and tell them everything she's learned. Further, she would urge the elven people to continue to try to learn more about their own history, but not with the aim of restoring it in the present day. Rather, she now feels that they must learn their history in order to avoid repeating the mistakes of their ancestors, because she really doesn't think the world of the ancient elves deserves to be restored.

 

If the Dalish want to repurpose some of their old traditions and give them new meanings, that's fine, as long as they know who their ancestors were and where they went wrong. Learn from them, but don't worship them. And they definitely do need to find their own way forward and create their own identity based on who they want to be, not merely who they (erroneously) believe they used to be. After all, we all know what they say about those who forget history.

[BansheeOwnage]

We need to speak to more than one of the Evanuris to make a decision, particularly more than the chronically lying one.

We did, actually. Mythal. She seemed to be on the same page as Solas about the rest of them.