We did, actually. Mythal. She seemed to be on the same page as Solas about the rest of them.
I'm not sure about Mythal. My gut feeling tells me she's hiding something from Solas (and the PC) regarding about the Evanuris or anything in general. Also, I honestly don't buy the whole "Mythal is the only good one of the Evanuris" thing. It would be nice to hear from the others.
Find a lot of the hyberbole surrounding the ancient elven empire funny. Elves wore markings of the God they served. Doesn't seem too far from any other society in Thedas(do Orlesian nobles not rule over their commoners). Difference is the godhood claim(but then they are immortal supremely powerful beings) whereas kings and lords are regular people. As someone else said anything said about other elven gods is suspect until we hear their side of the story.
As to the Dalish, they clearly face a choice. Those that really care about restoring the Elven place in the world need to flock to Fen'harel's banner.
Those that don't might as well go into the Alienages.
I'm not sure how well they'd take it if they knew the truth. I feel they should know what they are doing because if Solas messed up and the Evanuris were freed and no one died, they might see them with their makings and take them. I feel like what Cass did with the Seekers should be done for them. Take them aside and show proof, but they won't accept it as easily as a human sadly and might even take it as an offence and fight.
We did, actually. Mythal. She seemed to be on the same page as Solas about the rest of them.
Forgive me, but I'd much rather her not have a Flemeth filter.
Funny enough, the Dalish DID give new meaning to old things like the Vallaslin. They reclaimed the Vallaslin and re-purposed them from slave markings into symbols of pride and defiance and players mock them for wearing it.
"Look forward, not backwards"
I hear this so much for years and I wonder what exactly do people even mean when they say it. They usually never elaborate beyond that. It seems they kinda expect the Dalish to just throw away everything just because its in the past even though it is all they have left. It is their source of strength and solidarity. Its what keeps them going in a world that would like to snuff them out as a culture..
And why should they stop having mages be leaders? It works for them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They care for their mages and their mages care for them in return.
The point is not whether or not it works for them. Having mages as leaders is a clear attempt at emulating a time where immortal, super powerful mages enslaved all elves.
The question being discuss is thus, should practices such as these be preversed because it is their culture despite the fact what they are exalting are slavers and their practices or discarded, understanding that this means destroying Dalish culture?
You appear to be they should be preserved. Fair enough.
Oh and stop having the mages be the leaders. It sets a dangerous precedent should they ever be able to find a new homeland. And vice versa, of course. Just pick the best leaders on their merits.
Yeah, like humans do. You know, the ones who become leaders based on who was the first born to a family already in power...
Wait.
A mage should totally be a leader of clan...
If they have the merit for it. Just allowing them to lead because their mage is ridiculous. No more so than allowing someone to rule a country just because their daddy or mommy was king or queen before them.
Meritocracy is the only way to go.
That's better.
Preserve what useful magical knowledge that the old elves created (the eluvians for instance) and accept the cultural ramifications of discovering that your ancestors and gods were essentially Tevinter magisters with big ears, unworthy of worship or emulation.
Really, the Dalish should just become secular historians and stop bothering with attempting to recreate an culture built on slave labor and theft.
To be fair, this is Thedas. Every culture is built on slave labor and theft, and anyone who claims otherwise is lying.
Otherwise, I agree. That's where the "study history to learn from it" part comes in. While every culture has oppression and problems, they also have a lot of good in them worth preserving. I can understand the elves seeing good in their old culture and wanting to restore the best parts of their old society. I think it's important, though, for them to learn everything about the past, good and bad, so they can make informed decisions on which parts are worth recreating and which parts should be discreetly brushed aside.
The Dalish are adults, they can handle it.
"We are the last of the elvhenan and never again shall we submit". This is the Dalish mantra and in the light of what we have been told, is actually a good one.
My Dalish Inquisitor does not believe everything Solas told him because it is only from his view point. Therefore, it is likely prejudiced. However, what is clear is that the evanuris cannot currently help them since they were locked away by Fen'Harel, just a the Dalish have always believed. If Solas tears down the Veil it will likely kill everyone, including the Dalish, so they need to be persuaded not to help him. Giving them the warning of the evanuris against Solas might actually be helpful. Of course there is the possibility that some of them might assist Fen'Harel in the hope that once the evanuris are freed they will restore the elven empire. I would imagine the Keepers might since being mages they would identify with the evanuris. Focussing on the fact that the Dalish have promised themselves never again to be slaves is the essential point.
He is going to tell them about Ameridan. There was a time when you could honour both Andraste and the Creators in good conscience. Ameridan warned against isolationist ideas at the time but once he was gone those views held sway. He was betrayed by Drakon's heir but in a way also by his own people because clearly he believed the best way to ensure a future for the elves was to work with their neighbours against the problems of the world.
It has occurred to him that as nomads all of Thedas is in fact their homeland. Thus Solas threatens their home. May be Merrill was right and instead of longing for a specific location as homeland, which would always be at risk of invasion by one faction or another, they should just concentrate on preserving the best bits of their old culture, establishing their own customs (like vallaslin as a badge of pride) and making a home for themselves wherever they might be, being friendly and helpful towards their neighbours, whatever their race, provided of course those neighbours are not actively hostile towards them. It has worked for the last 700 years or so, so perhaps they should stick to it.
Bottom line, whatever you do, do not follow the Dread Wolf. We were right and he is not to be trusted.
To be fair, this is Thedas. Every culture is built on slave labor and theft, and anyone who claims otherwise is lying.
Otherwise, I agree. That's where the "study history to learn from it" part comes in. While every culture has oppression and problems, they also have a lot of good in them worth preserving. I can understand the elves seeing good in their old culture and wanting to restore the best parts of their old society. I think it's important, though, for them to learn everything about the past, good and bad, so they can make informed decisions on which parts are worth recreating and which parts should be discreetly brushed aside.
The Dalish are adults, they can handle it.
It's true in real life as well. Every history has the good and bad, but they live on because people value them.
I also agree on finding every facets of history, but also have the Dalish look forward and keep going as Dalish. Besides, if the Dalish ways are not continued, the only other options are to assimilate into human cultures who oppress elves and treat them as second-class citizens majority of the time. Like Morrigan have mentioned, there's beauty to be preserved and once it's lost, it's lost. To find it, one might find the most ugliest things imaginable, but to find that one precious thing, the journey might be worth it.
Still, I don't think all the Dalish clans will change their ways. Sharing the Inquisitor's knowledge might lead to potential traditionalist vs liberal views of current Dalish knowledge. Not all Keepers are wise and kind like the one from TME showed (that Keeper was an awful person imo). Some will be stubborn and outright reject it, be in denial. I mean who wants to believe their sacred pantheon once owned them as slaves like the Tevinter magisters.
We need to speak to more than one of the Evanuris to make a decision, particularly more than the chronically lying one.
I'm pretty sure the fact about the others being slavers is true
Guest_Keeva_*
Considering that their culture revolves around the worship of gods who are unworthy of such? I would say change. Well, maybe both. There is much to be learned from the ancient elves.
Flemeth: And to whom should I reveal myself?
Inquisitor: To the elves! To the world!
Flemeth: I've known the hearts of men long before Mythal came to me. It is why she came to me. They don't want the truth!
Yep. That's why it's a choice that could be really bad in the end, but they still have a right to know too. That's why it's so hard to make one decision right and one wrong. They are both and neither.
I'm not sure about Mythal. My gut feeling tells me she's hiding something from Solas (and the PC) regarding about the Evanuris or anything in general. Also, I honestly don't buy the whole "Mythal is the only good one of the Evanuris" thing. It would be nice to hear from the others.
I agree that she's hiding something, and most likely still has plans. I was just pointing out that we've met both her and Solas.
It's true in real life as well. Every history has the good and bad, but they live on because people value them.
I also agree on finding every facets of history, but also have the Dalish look forward and keep going as Dalish. Besides, if the Dalish ways are not continued, the only other options are to assimilate into human cultures who oppress elves and treat them as second-class citizens majority of the time. Like Morrigan have mentioned, there's beauty to be preserved and once it's lost, it's lost. To find it, one might find the most ugliest things imaginable, but to find that one precious thing, the journey might be worth it.
Still, I don't think all the Dalish clans will change their ways. Sharing the Inquisitor's knowledge might lead to potential traditionalist vs liberal views of current Dalish knowledge. Not all Keepers are wise and kind like the one from TME showed (that Keeper was an awful person imo). Some will be stubborn and outright reject it, be in denial. I mean who wants to believe their sacred pantheon once owned them as slaves like the Tevinter magisters.
Or, you know, they can say screw this and create something new and different. Traditions have to start from somewhere, right? So why not create a new cultural identity that doesn't have all the distressing issues of the past and instead create one that pertains to the challenges and realities of the present.
@ rpgfan321
I can't comment on The Masked Empire as I haven't read it, but I definitely agree that telling the Dalish the truth is bound to get a mixed response. I'm sure some would outright dismiss it, because change is hard at the best of times and finding out that there's a whole lot wrong with the culture you've been trying to emulate and holding up as an ideal to be recreated is outright demoralizing. I hope that some of the Dalish would at least be willing to consider the new information and examine their people's history with a more critical eye going forward. Regardless of the reaction, my elf Inquisitor would feel obligated to try, so that everything she's learned would at least be out there and accessible to those willing to consider it.
Whatever the Dalish decide as a whole will have to wait till an Arlathven. Maybe they'll hold an emergency Arlathven in light of the revelations. I can't see them completely abandoning their way of life, their separation from human society hasn't got anything to do with the evanuris.
The point is not whether or not it works for them. Having mages as leaders is a clear attempt at emulating a time where immortal, super powerful mages enslaved all elves.
The question being discuss is thus, should practices such as these be preversed because it is their culture despite the fact what they are exalting are slavers and their practices or discarded, understanding that this means destroying Dalish culture?
You appear to be they should be preserved. Fair enough.
I'm....kinda confused.
....are you assuming that the Dalish know that having their mages as leaders is an attempt to emulate a time when superpowerful mages enslaved elves? I don't think they know that.
As far as the Dalish are concerned, their mages are not their slave-masters and the clan members are not their slaves. I doubt they would be receptive to the idea if they learned the full extent of what their Creators were really like and what the Creators' relationships were with common elves.
Or, you know, they can say screw this and create something new and different. Traditions have to start from somewhere, right? So why not create a new cultural identity that doesn't have all the distressing issues of the past and instead create one that pertains to the challenges and realities of the present.
Yes and yes. But I stand on the point that Dalish should accept all facts that come across and not self-censor themselves. That they also know the dark past behind what they've been preaching, but come to accept the new meaning they've created within themselves. Kind of like what Cassandra is doing when she decides to rebuild the Seekers 
I do hope Dalish cultures, not just ancient elven lores, are expanded in future installments because I do like the rich background of Dalish clans or modern elves in general.
I can't comment on The Masked Empire as I haven't read it, but I definitely agree that telling the Dalish the truth is bound to get a mixed response. I'm sure some would outright dismiss it, because change is hard at the best of times and finding out that there's a whole lot wrong with the culture you've been trying to emulate and holding up as an ideal to be recreated is outright demoralizing. I hope that some of the Dalish would at least be willing to consider the new information and examine their people's history with a more critical eye going forward. Regardless of the reaction, my elf Inquisitor would feel obligated to try, so that everything she's learned would at least be out there and accessible to those willing to consider it.
TME is an interesting book, and should read it when you have the time. I enjoyed it.
The Gods the Dalish revere and pray to and what the Evanuris were really like reminds me of the Old and New Testament.
Yeah the Dalish were wrong about what their "Gods" were like but their, let's say, 're-imagined' gods sound a lot more noble and deserving of being 'Gods" than their real-life counterparts (except the Dread Wolf arguably). It's those re-imagined Gods that the Dalish revere and pray too, is that so bad?
Whatever the Dalish decide as a whole will have to wait till an Arlathven. Maybe they'll hold an emergency Arlathven in light of the revelations. I can't see them completely abandoning their way of life, their separation from human society hasn't got anything to do with the evanuris.
Totally agree. I don't know when was the last Arlathven, and doubt they had one when Inquisition was active (Corypheus was up and about after all).
I don't think the elves should simply forget or ignore their past, but I think a big adjustment is in order. Playing as an elf inquisitor who started the game as a devout believer in the elven gods, I'd say my character's view (and mine, to be honest) as of Trespasser is that the elves need to know the truth of their history. All of it--that is to say, everything that can be proven now, and everything that has been presented and may or may not be true, all with full acknowledgment of how much they still don't know. My own Lavellan, if given the chance, would speak to as many of her fellow elves as possible and tell them everything she's learned. Further, she would urge the elven people to continue to try to learn more about their own history, but not with the aim of restoring it in the present day. Rather, she now feels that they must learn their history in order to avoid repeating the mistakes of their ancestors, because she really doesn't think the world of the ancient elves deserves to be restored.
If the Dalish want to repurpose some of their old traditions and give them new meanings, that's fine, as long as they know who their ancestors were and where they went wrong. Learn from them, but don't worship them. And they definitely do need to find their own way forward and create their own identity based on who they want to be, not merely who they (erroneously) believe they used to be. After all, we all know what they say about those who forget history.
Its a tricky place for the Dalish. Can they survive as a culture if the very foundations of that culture are proved to be completely misinterpreted and undesirable? Given how hostile the rest of the world is to the Dalish, they need the unity of purpose that their culture and mission (to revive the old ways) provides, and I'm not sure that they can survive without it. So is reinventing their culture even possible, or will they splinter over ideological differences and their communities become nonviable? I don't know. I think the Dalish are at a real turning point and the next few years to come (and what Solas does) will decide their fate, but I would hesitate to make a prediction either way.
I'd very much dispute that the foundations of culture are undesirable & while slightly misunderstood(they certainly haven't been completely so)
The world is at a turning point, either the Dalish will eventually be swallowed by shem culture or their goal of reviving the old ways will truly succeed.
I think they should concentrate on the future. Try to uncover truths about the past sure, because recording history is a valuable thing. But I don't think they should be trying to re-live that history. They should also reach out to city elves.
As for stuff in their current culture, like the vallaslin, I think that should be a personal choice. Previously, afaik, vallaslin has been given when an elf is considered ready for adulthood. I think that should just be a personal choice instead. Or if they do use facial tattoos for that, why does it need to be associated with the gods from now on? They could use tattoos inspired from anything. Like their vocation or something.
@d1ta
Thank you! It sounds like our elves are in similar positions. I hadn't thought to compare a reformist Lavellan to Dorian, but their positions are somewhat similar (just how similar may depend on what the elves do next). Since you said "married" I'm guessing your Lavellan is with Cullen? Mine is with Blackwall, and is painfully aware that some (perhaps a great many) elves will view her as too assimilated or a race traitor for having so many non-elven friends and even being romantically involved with a human. She hates the idea of having to fight and kill fellow elves, but if it's between that and letting Solas destroy the world, it's no contest (which is the position Dorian found himself in, huh).
Even knowing that her credibility among her own kind has been compromised by her actions and associations of the last few years, she'd do the best she could to get the truth to her people. She will never stop caring about or wanting to help elvenkind (all of them, not only the Dalish), though the events of Inquisition have led her to conclude that she has a larger responsibility to all races--she wants to help the Dalish thrive, but not at the expense of anyone else--which is one more reason why Solas's plan holds absolutely no appeal for her.
I love that Varric made an alliance with Wycome, and I hope that Clan Lavellan living among city elves and human commoners as mutually respectful equals will set a precedent that others will consider worth following. As some others have said, what the Dalish got wrong in trying to recreate their past has turned out better than what they were trying to imitate. I think the key is that they need to understand what really happened in the past, where it went wrong, and how they can do better. They need and should have their own cultural identity, but it's better to base it on aspiration than misinterpretation. And their future outlook will be better if they adopt a less isolationist stance. I know some clans trade with humans, but others are openly hostile, and many take great pains to avoid contact with humans whenever possible. I understand that this is motivated by fear of attack, but if your neighbors actually know you, they're less likely to believe someone who claims that strange elf clan camped outside of town is planning to come in, burn their homes, and put them all to the sword.
Essentially I'm saying I believe that if the Dalish want to build the best possible future for themselves, education and communication are key to that.
I don't think Keepers are supposed to be any kind of emulation of the Evanuris in particular. Dalish legends say that all elves were once mages and whether or not that is true, clearly the Evanuris weren't the only mages. We know the entire Elvhenan was inextricably entwined with magic. I think a large part of it is that the Keepers are the ones who are supposed to know the most old lore and a lot of that is about magic.
I'd say in light recent revelations, the elven religion and culture no longer have the value they did and have been rendered no longer worth preserving. The fact that vallasline was once slave markings doesn't really matter as much because it means something different now. And that meaning is important. However, in light of just how evil the Evanuris were, I'd say even that is kind of iffy.
That said, their practices towards humans shouldn't really change, because it was avoiding them that allows to avoid the fate of the City Elves.
Elves actually do have their own old traditions in Andrastianism that have been forgotten. We know this from Ameridan and WoT 2 says The Canticle of Shartan was likely first written in the Dales.
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