163 réponses à ce sujet

[ModernAcademic]

 

 

Allow me to begin by saying, in full knowledge of its futility, that I do not intend for this to be an anti-Dalish or anti-elf thread. I myself am undecided.

 

I understand the position of the Dalish and even support. There is no worthier cause than to preserve your people, your culture, your identity in the face of all antagonism.

However, we now know that the Dalish seek to preserve the worst aspects of ancient Elvhenan. They worship the immortals who enslaved them, yearn for their return, tatoo themselves with slave markings. Even the very act of placing a mage as the leader of the clan is an attempt to imitate a time when immortal super powerful mages enslaved Thedas. They yearn for the return of their masters.

The human equivalent would be Southerners worshipping Magisters after Andraste's death.

 

And yet, these trappings have taken a new meaning in the Dalish. Much like Lavellan tells Solas, the blood writings are no longer meant to be a mark of ownership but rather one of pride and defiance against their enemies.

 

 

Therefore, the question is thus:

Should the Dalish remain as they are today, holding on to all these cultural traits despite their negative conotations because they are what makes them a distinct people?

 

Or should they change their culture entirely so as to not worship the Evanuris and thus no longer exalt their conditions of slaves?

 

 

Those are excellent points you raised there. That question kept haunting me after the end of the game, too.

 

When Solas tries to convince my Dalish Inq. to remove her vallaslin, she refuses and replies to him that the vallaslin does not mean enslavement to her. They are part of her cultural identity, a symbol of her ancestry from the Dales.

 

Symbols cross the barrier of time and space. And while their design remains pretty much the same, their meaning changes. Perhaps in the time of Arlathan the elven tattoos meant something bad. Imprisonment, suffering, enslavement. But for the elves that lived in the Dales and their descendants, they mean something different, something positive: belonging, inheritance, cultural unity.

 

So at least for my Dalish Inq., there's no need to be rid of the vallaslin. For the Evanuris are long gone, along with the lost legacy of Arlathan and all the evil that happened during the days of the empire. She'll wear the vallaslin to honour those that died defending the Dales. That's what the vallaslin means to her. And that's the past she seeks to preserve. An old symbol gains new meaning, a better one, that may be used to unify the elves and help them build a future for themselves.

[Vit246]

Personally I find removing the vallaslin to be way too much defeatist. And I'm disappointed in how many people are so quick to remove them as some sort of act of "letting go of the past" or "freeing oneself of the chains of the past".

[dragonflight288]

For me personally, the hardest part will be convincing the Dalish as a whole that a lot of what they think, worship and hold near-and-dear to their hearts is not what they've been raised for generations to believe. 

 

It doesn't help that outside of their clans, the elves are not allowed any cultural identity whatsoever. Go to the humans and you'll be required to convert to the Chantry, but you'll also be required to live in an alienage due to the racism against elves. Go to the Qunari who are more fair in who gets what role in their society, it still will swallow up and destroy anything that they would call their own. 

 

The trick of moving forward and not backwards is not going to be easy at all, especially if no alternative to what they already do can be offered. Racism and cultural and religious dominance outside of the clans outright keep them from moving forward, settling a home and finding a new way. All they have is their clans and the way their raised to see themselves as victims of the humans. 

 

I think, before anyone says they need to move forward and forget the jaded past of their ancestors that person should first offer an alternative that allows the Dalish to keep their cultural identity as "uniquely elves" while also avoiding the pitfalls of ancient Arlathan. 

 

I do not think it's necessary to remove aspects of their culture that have developed on their own. The Valleslin is now a sign of adulthood, a symbol of defiance against the humans destroying the Dales and outlawing their religion, and a testament of a strong will as they must be silent through the pain of it being administered to them. 

 

They also can commune with the halla as friends, something no other race can do. As the Halla master in Origins says, they are not beasts of burden like horses or bronto are but companions. The Keeper chooses when they leave, the Halla decide where they go. This is a unique characteristic no other culture has. 

 

So, those who talked about teaching the elves the true history of the the ancients so they can establish new traditions and rituals while avoiding the dangers of the past, kudos. 

 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I actually sort of suspect that Solas is going to succeed at destroying the Veil and releasing the Evanuris at some point. After which they will begin indiscriminately destroying all life in Thedas in a fit of rage, including the Dalish Clans. And that's how the Dalish will learn their religion was a lie. Then all their blessings and benedictions will turn into curses.

 

Because the truth about the elven gods is something that we as the players all know, but I'm not sure there's a way to conclusively convince the Dalish Elves at large. It seems a little awkward that they'd create a situation where the players know that much more about a setting than the people they might potentially have to roleplay as or interact with, so I can't help but suspect eventually the nature of the Evanuris will somehow become common knowledge to all Thedas. Hence, I figure the elves will suffer the same fate as the Ancient Imperium did by having their gods turn on them.

[In Exile]

The Dalish don't have anything to preserve, in the sense that their culture was always a broken telephone fabrication of very old beliefs tied up with their modern and sometimes racist prejudice.

The question is whether their culture is worth something to them intrinsically or whether it was always just about being right about the past.

[straykat]

I always liked my (particular) story of a Dalish Warden already changing, embracing the Chantry a bit, even romancing Leliana. Picking up where Andraste and Shartan lost, I guess.

 

And now the story has come to a point where Elves in general aren't going to find a future in the Dalish. It'll either be a more loving Chantry Divine (and Inquisition), the Qun, or Solas. And Solas' idea of preservation is dramatically different.

[Darkly Tranquil]

The Dalish don't have anything to preserve, in the sense that their culture was always a broken telephone fabrication of very old beliefs tied up with their modern and sometimes racist prejudice.
The question is whether their culture is worth something to them intrinsically or whether it was always just about being right about the past.

I would argue that even if their established beliefs are wrong, they still serve a function maintaining a sense of unity, collective identity, and cultural/racial pride in a deeply downtrodden group that might otherwise simply wither away in the face of more dominant cultures surrounding them. For the elves, the alternatives may be between trying to build a new culture out of the wreckage of their existing culture (the parts about the Dales are mostly true) or simply surrendering the notion of an elven identity and just allowing themselves to be subsumed into Andrastian/Qunari/whatever society. But given the nature of recessive elven genetics, the latter seems (long term) like a recipe for species extinction. The only foreseeable way elves can survive as a species (Solas aside), is if they are able to hold onto their identity as a distinctive people and maintain their cultural boundaries, even if that means building their culture on some shaky foundations for a time, until a new more cohesive identity is able to be built.

[straykat]

or simply surrendering the notion of an elven identity and just allowing themselves to be subsumed into Andrastian/Qunari/whatever society

 

There's nothing saying they could shape at least some of the Chantry in return though too. It doesn't have to go one way.. which is what I think Andraste would have preferred. Or Shartan. And apparently Ameridan.

 

Not against their will or anything though. I'm talking more about city elf integration, I guess. Just being able to have a decent life and a respected opinion. And maybe just more dialogue with Dalish clans.

[Gervaise]

There is a model, albeit a small one, of how the Dalish can become active members of Thedas society in what happens with Lavellan's clan (if they survive).    Essentially they helped bring off a coup against a corrupt noble and now serve jointly on the Wycombe city council.    Presumably they are still living as Dalish within the vicinity of Wycombe, so retaining their cultural identity, but at the same time fostering better relations with their neighbours and having an actual say how things are run.   Varric has apparently also offered the support of Kirkwall to maintain this position and since Kirkwall is returning to being a regional power under his rule, this can only benefit the situation in Wycombe.     Of course, as Solas pointed out, the Lavellan clan were already notable for taking an interest in outside affairs (the Conclave).   Whilst they are likely a minority among the Dalish, they are not the only ones: the Dalish Warden's father encouraged just such activity and apparently the reason we so often hear Gisharel quoted about Dalish lore is because he advocated sharing their lore and culture with human scholars so that they would come to understand and respect the Dalish.   My hopes for the Dalish lie with leaders like these.

 

My main concern plot wise is that the elves are going to become the fall guys in the next game.   Essentially we have a situation where they are going to be suspected of either working for the qunari or working for Solas.    I doubt people are going to draw much distinction between city elves and Dalish.      Whilst I can see city elves flocking to Solas (provided he doesn't mention the fact they are all going to die in his brave new world), I do wonder about the Dalish.    The end slide shows an elf with vallaslin (I think of Mythal) heading to join Solas.    Whilst those who purport to follow Mythal might gravitate in his direction, if they believe the story about the murder of Mythal, I'm not convinced that other Dalish would.    If they are willing to accept even a small amount of the history that has been revealed by the Inquisition, then presumably they might also be willing to heed the warning that the evanuris left against Fen'Harel, which in fact ties in totally with their own lore on the matter.   Then it would be a balance of whether they supported Solas in the hope that he would release the evanuris, after which they would be prepared to change sides against him,  or whether they would overcome their prejudices against other races sufficiently to realise that anything he has planned is going to result in the destruction of the world they currently inhabit and thus themselves.    So the Dalish would be left as probably the main elven force actively opposing him.    I used to have mixed feelings about the Dalish and was more a city elf at heart after DAO (having played both).    However, having predominately played an elven Inquisitor and explored the various ways in which a Dalish might approach things, I have really become rather fond of my Lavellan who is deeply committed to the future of his people and retaining their own cultural identity, whilst acknowledging the mistakes of the past, including the isolationist stance in the Dales.    I really want the true Dalish to survive: "We are the last of the elvhanen and never again shall we submit" (not to cultural extinction, not to the Chantry, not to the evanuris and not to Solas).   If to do that we have to remain nomads, then so be it, but the situation in Wycombe does give me hope.

 

Since the next game is going to be in Tevinter, the Dalish position is not likely to be a significant factor, since we are told in DAI that there are no clans operating there.   If we are allowed to play races again, then I presume I am going to be back to being a city elf.

[Vit246]

There's nothing saying they could shape at least some of the Chantry in return though too. It doesn't have to go one way.. which is what I think Andraste would have preferred. Or Shartan. And apparently Ameridan.

 

Not against their will or anything though. I'm talking more about city elf integration, I guess. Just being able to have a decent life and a respected opinion. And maybe just more dialogue with Dalish clans.

 

.....what? The Dalish allowing the Chantry in and integrating into the City Elves? Are you kidding me? I hope I am misunderstanding this.

[Ghost Gal]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't the Dalish preserve and honor the past, but also work toward a better future.

 

The Dalish don't have anything to preserve, in the sense that their culture was always a broken telephone fabrication of very old beliefs tied up with their modern and sometimes racist prejudice.

The question is whether their culture is worth something to them intrinsically or whether it was always just about being right about the past.

 

I think Merrill summed it up best: "Your 'Maker' is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

 

I have never seen a Dalish character claim their people have the absolute, complete truth about their past. Every single Dalish character I have ever seen has fully admitted that their people have very few memories and records of their past, and that a lot of their stories and lore are placeholders until they discover more... but it's still a past worth learning and preserving because it's theirs. They'd rather practice their own religion, study their own history, and have their own culture than the ones humans constantly try to shove down their throats with a toilet plunger.

 

(And contrary to what this forum often says, the Dalish are usually good sports about accepting new information that contradicts the old bits. For centuries the Dalish said humans led an Exalted March against them because they rejected Andrasteism, and dismissed claims of Red Crossing as propaganda from the other side. If the Inquisitor finds written records that prove an elven attack on Red Crossing actually happened and gives it to the Dalish, they graciously accept it. They treat it as a treasured memento of their history despite how it puts them in a bad light, accept their share of responsibility for what happened, and immediately send a mourning halla to the present-day Red Crossing as an apology and a sign of good will. Who's to say the Dalish as a whole wouldn't also respond graciously if told Elvhenan fell to civil war rather than human conquer? That the Quickening was caused by the Veil rather than human contact? That Fen'Harel was a freedom-fighter rather than a malicious trickster? Sure, some Dalish might reject it, but you've got deniers like that in every culture--the Chantry's a prime example. There's nothing to say the greater Dalish culture at large won't say, "Okay, things didn't happen the way we thought they happened. This changes everything. Now, where do we go from here?")

 

There's nothing saying they could shape at least some of the Chantry in return though too. It doesn't have to go one way.. which is what I think Andraste would have preferred. Or Shartan. And apparently Ameridan.

 

Not against their will or anything though. I'm talking more about city elf integration, I guess. Just being able to have a decent life and a respected opinion. And maybe just more dialogue with Dalish clans.

 

You're kidding, right? We're talking about the same Chantry that forced the elves to convert but then barred them from the priesthood? The same Chantry that struck Shartan out of the Chant and then made the mere mention of him heresy? The same Chantry that rewrote the mage elven dual-worshiping Ameridan into a non-magic human Andrastian for the history books? The same Chantry that took back the elves' homeland but then herded city elves into impoverished slums and perpetuate negative propaganda against elves (constantly retelling Red Crossing but cutting out positive elven contributions like Shartan, Ameridan, Garahel, and Maker only knows how many others) to keep them as an exploited working class?

 

Gee, why would the Dalish not want to take in the Chantry? Why would the Dalish not want to live like city elves?

 

.....what? The Dalish allowing the Chantry in and integrating into the City Elves? Are you kidding me? I hope I am misunderstanding this.

 

Seriously, because accepting the Chantry and going to live in human society has worked so well for city elves.

[Qun00]

It is time to abandon the elven pantheon and preserve everything else that is worth preserving.

[Steelcan]

It is time to abandon the elven pantheon and preserve everything else that is worth preserving.

which is noting

[Dean_the_Young]

I would argue that even if their established beliefs are wrong, they still serve a function maintaining a sense of unity, collective identity, and cultural/racial pride in a deeply downtrodden group that might otherwise simply wither away in the face of more dominant cultures surrounding them.

 

Would this be a bad thing, though?

 

If we don't believe that cultures are inherently equal in worth, we have a question of if the Dalish culture is superior to the human culture. This is relevant, because if it is not superior than it is inferior, and trapping the elves into and with an inferior culture would be evil.

 

If we believe that cultures are inherently equal, however, then what is the sin in letting the elves assimilate into another, equal, culture of their own choice? Granted, this depends on there being a choice- and that they'd be allowed to assimilate- but if the culture whithers away because it's not as wanted despite being equal, why would that be wrong? It'd still be trapping elves into a culture they wouldn't otherwise want- because if they did want it, then the Dalish culture would still survive.

 

 

 

For the elves, the alternatives may be between trying to build a new culture out of the wreckage of their existing culture (the parts about the Dales are mostly true) or simply surrendering the notion of an elven identity and just allowing themselves to be subsumed into Andrastian/Qunari/whatever society. But given the nature of recessive elven genetics, the latter seems (long term) like a recipe for species extinction.

 

 

 

Would this, in fact, be a bad thing if it's by voluntary and consensual unions?

 

The fabled endstate of all human-elf equality is the fact that, if we accept that racial equality and liberalism is achieved, then only very un-liberal measures will prevent the 'extinction' of the elves (ignoring, for this argument, that elves are still producing their own children- just not children of their own race). If we accept that race relations are harmonious enough that it's equally acceptable, and equally likely, for copulation to be with another elf as it is as human- then eventually the elves will breed out.

 

The only way to preserve a permanent elven breeding population is to ultimately  restrict the sexual freedoms and rights of elves. Either by virtue of prohibiting 'non-productive' commited relationships that won't bring elves, or to require elf-elf couplings regardless of consent. The impositions would certainly be far lighter at the start- but the more integrated the elven population becomes, and the lower the pure-elf population goes, the more rigorously it will have to be held.

 

 

 

 

The only foreseeable way elves can survive as a species (Solas aside), is if they are able to hold onto their identity as a distinctive people and maintain their cultural boundaries, even if that means building their culture on some shaky foundations for a time, until a new more cohesive identity is able to be built.

 

 

I agree, merits or judgement of the Dalish aside.

[straykat]

.....what? The Dalish allowing the Chantry in and integrating into the City Elves? Are you kidding me? I hope I am misunderstanding this.

 

You are misunderstanding. I said integrating the City Elves better now. That is, the ones that already Andrastian (and I said not doing things against people's will). And simply having dialogue with the Dalish more.

 

It's plainly written. I'm surprised multiple people misunderstood:

 

"I'm talking more about city elf integration, I guess. [...] And maybe just more dialogue with Dalish clans."

[straykat]

You're kidding, right? We're talking about the same Chantry that forced the elves to convert but then barred them from the priesthood? The same Chantry that struck Shartan out of the Chant and then made the mere mention of him heresy? The same Chantry that rewrote the mage elven dual-worshiping Ameridan into a non-magic human Andrastian for the history books? The same Chantry that took back the elves' homeland but then herded city elves into impoverished slums and perpetuate negative propaganda against elves (constantly retelling Red Crossing but cutting out positive elven contributions like Shartan, Ameridan, Garahel, and Maker only knows how many others) to keep them as an exploited working class?

 

Gee, why would the Dalish not want to take in the Chantry? Why would the Dalish not want to live like city elves?

 

 

Seriously, because accepting the Chantry and going to live in human society has worked so well for city elves.

 

You should probably read what I posted before writing a paragraph like that. It's just not worth the time.

[In Exile]

I would argue that even if their established beliefs are wrong, they still serve a function maintaining a sense of unity, collective identity, and cultural/racial pride in a deeply downtrodden group that might otherwise simply wither away in the face of more dominant cultures surrounding them. For the elves, the alternatives may be between trying to build a new culture out of the wreckage of their existing culture (the parts about the Dales are mostly true) or simply surrendering the notion of an elven identity and just allowing themselves to be subsumed into Andrastian/Qunari/whatever society. But given the nature of recessive elven genetics, the latter seems (long term) like a recipe for species extinction. The only foreseeable way elves can survive as a species (Solas aside), is if they are able to hold onto their identity as a distinctive people and maintain their cultural boundaries, even if that means building their culture on some shaky foundations for a time, until a new more cohesive identity is able to be built.

 

But whether or not the identity they have is an identity they want to have is very much a question that turns on whether it matters to them that their identity is "right". The Dalish make a big deal about recovering the past - their culture is a myth about their past. We know - and the thread is based on the Dalish knowing - that this myth is a complete fabrication. Much of it is totally wrong (e.g. the supposed divinity of their beings, or the innocence of the Dales as a Kingdom), some of it is wrong and racist (humans as plague bearing vermin that stole their immortality) and some of it is more right than they could even dream (i.e., Arlathan wasn't just an ancient kingdom or city, it was a magical empire so far beyond the comprehension of present day people that they couldn't even imagine it). 

 

The moral of the Dalish myth is all wrong. Some of the events are right, but the moral conclusions they draw - about themselves and about humans, among others - are all screw-y. The Dalish would need to decide what their culture means to them.

 

If it matters that they be right about the past, if it matters that they are the unequivocal victims of the humans, at every stage of their past, then the cultural narrative doesn't work. 

 

The elves need a culture, but it doesn't need to be the regressive Dalish culture. 

[In Exile]

I think Merrill summed it up best: "Your 'Maker' is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

 

I have never seen a Dalish character claim their people have the absolute, complete truth about their past. Every single Dalish character I have ever seen has fully admitted that their people have very few memories and records of their past, and that a lot of their stories and lore are placeholders until they discover more... but it's still a past worth learning and preserving because it's theirs. They'd rather practice their own religion, study their own history, and have their own culture than the ones humans constantly try to shove down their throats with a toilet plunger.

 

(And contrary to what this forum often says, the Dalish are usually good sports about accepting new information that contradicts the old bits. For centuries the Dalish said humans led an Exalted March against them because they rejected Andrasteism, and dismissed claims of Red Crossing as propaganda from the other side. If the Inquisitor finds written records that prove an elven attack on Red Crossing actually happened and gives it to the Dalish, they graciously accept it. They treat it as a treasured memento of their history despite how it puts them in a bad light, accept their share of responsibility for what happened, and immediately send a mourning halla to the present-day Red Crossing as an apology and a sign of good will. Who's to say the Dalish as a whole wouldn't also respond graciously if told Elvhenan fell to civil war rather than human conquer? That the Quickening was caused by the Veil rather than human contact? That Fen'Harel was a freedom-fighter rather than a malicious trickster? Sure, some Dalish might reject it, but you've got deniers like that in every culture--the Chantry's a prime example. There's nothing to say the greater Dalish culture at large won't say, "Okay, things didn't happen the way we thought they happened. This changes everything. Now, where do we go from here?")

 

Red Crossing isn't a good example, because we don't really see any substantive reaction to it in terms of the myth the Dalish have created about their past. They don't actively deny reality - they don't pretend the very unequivocal account is fake. That's laudable, but that doesn't e.g. prove that they view the collapse of the Dales as something other than the aggressive military campaign of Orlais as part of a dedicated effort to exterminate their culture. 

 

For the Dalish to accept that everything at the core of their myth is a lie - that their gods don't exist, that they were immortal tyrants who treated elves like slaves, that their markings are just another form of slave collar that they proudly wear, that their entire society collapsed due to their failings, etc. ...

 

... That's all radical. A culture that believes that would have myths that are totally alien to the Dalish. Would that mean they'd want to restore the world that Solas took from them? Would they want to create a new one, in this one? Who knows. That's what makes it so hard to say. 

[Qun00]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't the Dalish preserve and honor the past, but also work toward a better future.


I think Merrill summed it up best: "Your 'Maker' is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

I have never seen a Dalish character claim their people have the absolute, complete truth about their past. Every single Dalish character I have ever seen has fully admitted that their people have very few memories and records of their past, and that a lot of their stories and lore are placeholders until they discover more... but it's still a past worth learning and preserving because it's theirs. They'd rather practice their own religion, study their own history, and have their own culture than the ones humans constantly try to shove down their throats with a toilet plunger.

(And contrary to what this forum often says, the Dalish are usually good sports about accepting new information that contradicts the old bits. For centuries the Dalish said humans led an Exalted March against them because they rejected Andrasteism, and dismissed claims of Red Crossing as propaganda from the other side. If the Inquisitor finds written records that prove an elven attack on Red Crossing actually happened and gives it to the Dalish, they graciously accept it. They treat it as a treasured memento of their history despite how it puts them in a bad light, accept their share of responsibility for what happened, and immediately send a mourning halla to the present-day Red Crossing as an apology and a sign of good will. Who's to say the Dalish as a whole wouldn't also respond graciously if told Elvhenan fell to civil war rather than human conquer? That the Quickening was caused by the Veil rather than human contact? That Fen'Harel was a freedom-fighter rather than a malicious trickster? Sure, some Dalish might reject it, but you've got deniers like that in every culture--the Chantry's a prime example. There's nothing to say the greater Dalish culture at large won't say, "Okay, things didn't happen the way we thought they happened. This changes everything. Now, where do we go from here?")


You're kidding, right? We're talking about the same Chantry that forced the elves to convert but then barred them from the priesthood? The same Chantry that struck Shartan out of the Chant and then made the mere mention of him heresy? The same Chantry that rewrote the mage elven dual-worshiping Ameridan into a non-magic human Andrastian for the history books? The same Chantry that took back the elves' homeland but then herded city elves into impoverished slums and perpetuate negative propaganda against elves (constantly retelling Red Crossing but cutting out positive elven contributions like Shartan, Ameridan, Garahel, and Maker only knows how many others) to keep them as an exploited working class?

Gee, why would the Dalish not want to take in the Chantry? Why would the Dalish not want to live like city elves?


Seriously, because accepting the Chantry and going to live in human society has worked so well for city elves.

Solas doesn't seem to believe in Dalish humility, though. That's clear in the line "I thought you would want to talk about YOUR view on elven culture. You're Dalish, are you not?"

He also mentions his failed attempts at sharing knowledge with them, often being dismissed as a "flat ear" and "mad man".

[Darkly Tranquil]

But whether or not the identity they have is an identity they want to have is very much a question that turns on whether it matters to them that their identity is "right". The Dalish make a big deal about recovering the past - their culture is a myth about their past. We know - and the thread is based on the Dalish knowing - that this myth is a complete fabrication. Much of it is totally wrong (e.g. the supposed divinity of their beings, or the innocence of the Dales as a Kingdom), some of it is wrong and racist (humans as plague bearing vermin that stole their immortality) and some of it is more right than they could even dream (i.e., Arlathan wasn't just an ancient kingdom or city, it was a magical empire so far beyond the comprehension of present day people that they couldn't even imagine it). 
 
The moral of the Dalish myth is all wrong. Some of the events are right, but the moral conclusions they draw - about themselves and about humans, among others - are all screw-y. The Dalish would need to decide what their culture means to them.
 
If it matters that they be right about the past, if it matters that they are the unequivocal victims of the humans, at every stage of their past, then the cultural narrative doesn't work. 
 
The elves need a culture, but it doesn't need to be the regressive Dalish culture.

I agree that they need to come to terms with their past and their own role in their downfall, but they need something to hold them together in the meantime until they figure out where to go from here. As I see it, the elves , especially the Dalish, need to stop focusing on the past (which they are wrong about anyway) and their whole victim narrative, and look forward to build themselves a new future with a new elven identity based on a truthful understanding of their history.

[Dean_the_Young]

I agree that they need to come to terms with their past and their own role in their downfall, but they need something to hold them together in the meantime until they figure out where to go from here. As I see it, the elves , especially the Dalish, need to stop focusing on the past (which they are wrong about anyway) and their whole victim narrative, and look forward to build themselves a new future with a new elven identity based on a truthful understanding of their history.

 

Why do they need to be Dalish if the point is to not be Dalish? Again- are cultures equal in intrinsic worth, or not?

 

Moreover, why would we assume that a 'new elven identity based on a truthful understanding of their history' would avoid the whole victim narrative? The revelations of the elven gods don't remove victimhood- they add to it. The Dread Wolf cut the heart out of their civilization, leaving them easy pickings for Tevinter. And before that, the Elven gods tyranized them. They can claim to be even more of the victims than before.

[Dabrikishaw]

That's a good point, the Dalish WERE the victims they claimed to be, they just didn't know who really abused them.

[In Exile]

Why do they need to be Dalish if the point is to not be Dalish? Again- are cultures equal in intrinsic worth, or not?

 

Moreover, why would we assume that a 'new elven identity based on a truthful understanding of their history' would avoid the whole victim narrative? The revelations of the elven gods don't remove victimhood- they add to it. The Dread Wolf cut the heart out of their civilization, leaving them easy pickings for Tevinter. And before that, the Elven gods tyranized them. They can claim to be even more of the victims than before.

 

It's a very different kind of victimhood. Thus far, the Dalish define their conflict and abuse in racial terms - it was the humans who did it, and their myth carries on quite offensively racist views about humans. Whereas with the Evanuris and Solas, their victimhood is of their own doing, in the sense that they are victims of the power structure their society built up. 

[Ashagar]

.....what? The Dalish allowing the Chantry in and integrating into the City Elves? Are you kidding me? I hope I am misunderstanding this.

 

I am more of the opinion that the sedentary City Elves and the nomadic Dalish are for the most part not capable of integration with each other beyond their current complex relationship, they are both elves proud of their own very different cultures and religious beliefs that they are not likely going to give up no matter what one side demands or wants.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's a very different kind of victimhood. Thus far, the Dalish define their conflict and abuse in racial terms - it was the humans who did it, and their myth carries on quite offensively racist views about humans. Whereas with the Evanuris and Solas, their victimhood is of their own doing, in the sense that they are victims of the power structure their society built up. 

 

That makes 'in addition to,' not 'instead of.' The Elvenham can still claim victimhood by the outsider- the Evanuris- who oppressed them.