163 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

*cough* Solas is planning to kill the Dalish because their not elfy and magicky enough. *cough* *cough*

 

That's unfair, C.S.

 

Solas is planning to kill everyone (or anyone) becuase they're not elfy and magicky enough.

[ComedicSociopathy]

That's unfair, C.S.

 

Solas is planning to kill everyone (or anyone) becuase they're not elfy and magicky enough.

 

Knew I forgot to mention something on that post.

 

 

[dragonflight288]

You're dodging the question I posed before: are cultures intrensically equal in worth, or not?

 

If cultures are equal, then voluntary assimilation within one, or willing adherance to one in which you are raised, is not a flaw.

 

Racially-exclusive cultures have no exceptional merit unless cultures are not equal- that there are better cultures, and worse cultures.

 

 

Why outside the clans? Why not the very racism and religious fervor inside the clan?

 

Moreover, why infatalize the Dalish as so? The Dalish prove they do not need land to hold a culture- why do they need one to change it? Are they children

 

 

 

Will this nation of elfyness allow other equally valid cultures to mingle and possibly convert, or will it suppress and seek to expel them to the borders as wrong and/or inferior?

 

And what is the 'true' history, anyway? That the elves were impotent and victims of their fate? That they were strong and brought tragedy upon themselves? That the conversion to Andrastianism was a horrible crime against elves? That the Dales were the cause of their own fall?

 

1. No, culture's are not equal but they may shine in separate ways, which is my subjective view. In real life, I don't give value to a culture for that culture's sake. I personally see how a culture benefits it citizens on all levels. Opportunities to grow, opportunities to advance in whatever field they wish and freedom to move where they wish or lawfully do what they wish. 

 

I won't get into comparing real life cultures because there are some real life ones I find utterly barbaric and wouldn't mind seeing wiped from the face of the earth as I see their practices as evil.

 

Orlais' culture, for instance, with its emphasis on being polite and wearing a pretty face to let your true self shine, for instance, has created a culture where honoring ones word and contract is a cultural necessity as we see with the House of Repose, so long as proof can be ascertained. 

 

They focus so much on how they appear that someone may subjectively think they are superior to Ferelden's culture, who are much more blunt and more "in-your-face" and as that girl in Denerim points out, since more power in Ferelden is held by the Freeholders of the bannorn and less by the crown, there is more freedom of operation for those of lower class than there is in Orlais, and to some that is superior but to Orlais or Tevinter it's just backwards not to have the top have the power. 

 

I for instance, find Ferelden's culture roughly equal to Orlais because I do not condone any culture that encourages killing people to advance oneself, which is what the game is all about, and why Howe is so repulsive. But Orlais still maintains a stronger military and economy because it's more centralized and the bannorn have been known to go to war with each other over trees. So Orlais is a stronger nation but its very culture and way of life has some people wanting to destroy the Game entirely, like Gaspard, because it IS self-destructive at a societal level while Ferelden lets human middle class, so to speak, move to which city they choose, the freeholders decide which lord they wish to pay taxes to and the people have a stronger voice in the direction of their nation than the King may have. 

 

2. Well, for inside the clans I find that 3/4 of the clans we meet in the three games are actually quite reasonable if you respect their way of life and help them. Zathrian's need for vengeance aside, if we help the Dalish recover their hunters, give them ironbark and treat them with respect the clan in turn starts treating a non-dalish warden with respect. Sarel is kind of a jerk, but he'll reveal he just lost his wife to a Dalish warden and is just bitter, but even he'll wise up and be friendly to a Warden that respects their ways. 

 

The Dalish we meet in the Exalted Plains are more than reasonable, their first in the Emerald Graves is pleasant and if we give the Keeper the true account of Red Crossing, he'll acknowledge the Dalish's role in the tragedy and immediately sends a mourning halla, one of the Dalish's most prized animals and friends, as they are not beasts of burden, to the humans by way of apology, whereas the Chantry whitewashes the truth and makes it seem like the Dalish have ALL fault for the massacre and completely ignore the humans role in a conflict that was built from misunderstanding and faults on both sides. 

 

The Lavellan Clan for a Dalish Inquisitor are also prime examples of perfectly reasonable elves who get along with humans for the most part. But even they have to travel between the borders of the Free Marches City-States to avoid getting wiped out to keep the humans from wanting to provoke a war with another monarch. 

 

So, yes there is racism among the Dalish, I find that most of it is actually aggressive caution because they would otherwise be wiped out.

 

And no, the Dalish are not children, but they are not united. From the Masked Emperor, the three games and the lore in general we know for a fact that while the Dalish have the same religious beliefs, one clan may differ greatly from another in how they approach humans. Some, like the Lavellan are very reasonable, but others further north are said to be little better than bandits. 

 

They would need a land to unite them and be able to enforce a cultural identity that is universal, with a set of rules and laws, and the various clans would overcome the disconnect from being apart so long actually brings. 

 

It's just sociology in a nutshell. Clans are separate so they develop their own unique cultures within their clans, and the clans are only united by their desire not to be overtaken by humans and a shared religion. Only unity without separation can bring them under a true cultural identity. 

 

Between the Chantry and the Qunari, there are no elven cultures that are strictly elven outside of the Dalish as a whole. 

 

3. I'd be all for it. Ameridan was a cool bean in wanting to keep the elves of the Dales from practicing isolationist policies and worshipped both the creators AND the Maker. 

 

As for the true history. We know that the evanuris may not have been gods, but they are extremely powerful immortals. If this is taught, and believed by the elves they may stop trying to reach out to them and instead build up on their own. We know that the valleslin used to be slave markings but they are not that anymore and are signs of adulthood, so I see no need to change that as a long-forgotten custom has naturally evolved into something very different from its original meaning. 

 

Kind of like the word "gay." It used to mean joyful, happy, merry making, and it still does for the very few who use it that way, but that definition has long been forgotten by the cultural connotations that have overshadowed it and thereby gave it a new definition. 

 

As for bringing about their own ruin? I find that highly debatable. They wiped themselves out with Arlathan and Solas essentially destroyed the whole empire by raising the veil, but Tevinter still conquered the remaining elves and forced them into slavery. The Dales were conquered in an exalted march by the chantry and by humans over a misunderstanding at Red Crossing that had both sides at fault. 

 

The misunderstanding, in its entirety would have to be taught to the elves and they would have to recognize their own fault, but that does not mean that the humans own religious fervor and Orlais's need to dominate everything they cast their eyes on has no bearing on the discussion. 

 

Humans bear, in my opinion, 65% of the blame for the fall of the Dales, because even though the war started on a misunderstanding and cultural tensions created by both sides, it was Orlais and the Chantry that sought ethnic cleansing and outlawed the elves religion.

[Ashagar]

I'd point out that the chantry only really got involved in the war after the Dales sacked over half of Orlais including the capital turning it into a holy war that was controversial even in the chantry. It was more of a Orlaisian war at first with as you noted the Orlaisian apparent need to rule the world for some reason.

 

In general  I'd say there was equal blame to go around though given how poorly the war started for the Orlaisians it was clear that unlike the Dales they weren't prepared for the war in spite the border troubles and their hostility towards the elves.

 

I do have my doubts that all the elves were forced converts or that some of the elves of the dales didn't follow the example of the last inquisitor worshiping both elven gods and the maker. I supect though it will likely never be proven that such things might have fed into the conflict on both sides

[dragonflight288]

The chantry wasn't involved at first, true, but they were key players in the absolute destruction of the Dales, and it was the Chantry who decreed elves live In alien ages after the fall of the dales.

But I won't say the elves are blameless, but neither do I say they are responsible for their fall from grace either

[Bad King]

The Dalish should continue doing what they've always done - adapt to their changing environment while sticking to the ways of their culture (be those the continued ways of the past, newly invented ways or recently reinvented ways) that have so far benefited them greatly when compared with their generally far more wretched brethren in the human cities.

 

The jury's still out on what the Evanuris truly represent. Solas clearly despises them, but then Solas has a tendency to demonise those who disagree with him - we'll have to wait and see. From what we know of both Dalish and ancient elven lore, the Evanuris were clearly beings of incredible power and creativity who transformed the world and elven culture (and thus also played a key role in the creation of later human culture which is modelled on ancient elven culture).

 

If Solas is indeed right about the Evanuris, then Mythal at least was a benevolent god-monarch deserving of continued reverence.

[Qun00]

They kept slaves and branded their faces.

You may want to try and paint this your way so that the Dalish can still come out looking good, but things are pretty much going south.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Can't we just agree that everyone of Thedas is an arsehole and leave it that?

[Dean_the_Young]

1. No, culture's are not equal but they may shine in separate ways, which is my subjective view. In real life, I don't give value to a culture for that culture's sake. I personally see how a culture benefits it citizens on all levels. Opportunities to grow, opportunities to advance in whatever field they wish and freedom to move where they wish or lawfully do what they wish. 

 

I won't get into comparing real life cultures because there are some real life ones I find utterly barbaric and wouldn't mind seeing wiped from the face of the earth as I see their practices as evil.

 

Orlais' culture, for instance, with its emphasis on being polite and wearing a pretty face to let your true self shine, for instance, has created a culture where honoring ones word and contract is a cultural necessity as we see with the House of Repose, so long as proof can be ascertained. 

 

They focus so much on how they appear that someone may subjectively think they are superior to Ferelden's culture, who are much more blunt and more "in-your-face" and as that girl in Denerim points out, since more power in Ferelden is held by the Freeholders of the bannorn and less by the crown, there is more freedom of operation for those of lower class than there is in Orlais, and to some that is superior but to Orlais or Tevinter it's just backwards not to have the top have the power. 

 

I for instance, find Ferelden's culture roughly equal to Orlais because I do not condone any culture that encourages killing people to advance oneself, which is what the game is all about, and why Howe is so repulsive. But Orlais still maintains a stronger military and economy because it's more centralized and the bannorn have been known to go to war with each other over trees. So Orlais is a stronger nation but its very culture and way of life has some people wanting to destroy the Game entirely, like Gaspard, because it IS self-destructive at a societal level while Ferelden lets human middle class, so to speak, move to which city they choose, the freeholders decide which lord they wish to pay taxes to and the people have a stronger voice in the direction of their nation than the King may have.

 

I'm proud of you, dragonflight.

 

No, I'm not being sarcast- I'm honestly pleased at your honesty. A lot of people duck behind modern rhetoric of multiculturalism- all cultures are equal, absolute moral relativism- even if they argue otherwise. You didn't, and you can articulate your views, and I approve of that.

 

 

Now, next time, we can argue if the Dalish culture is better or worse. I'll give you a friendly start.

 

In seven hundred years, city elves in Orlais have gotten a cultural reformer (Celene) who is interested in reforming society to be more open to them, her only credible rival (Gaspard) is willing to judge them on their abilities and will keep his word with them rather than dismiss them on race alone, and a potential noble interested in playing the Game on their behalf (Briala). Nowhere near 'great', but significant and real improvements in their status and propsects.

 

In seven hundred years, what have the Dalish gotten except hard souls (and hard soles) from walking around all the time? They any closer to a healthy culture?

 

2. Well, for inside the clans I find that 3/4 of the clans we meet in the three games are actually quite reasonable if you respect their way of life and help them. Zathrian's need for vengeance aside, if we help the Dalish recover their hunters, give them ironbark and treat them with respect the clan in turn starts treating a non-dalish warden with respect. Sarel is kind of a jerk, but he'll reveal he just lost his wife to a Dalish warden and is just bitter, but even he'll wise up and be friendly to a Warden that respects their ways. 

 

The Dalish we meet in the Exalted Plains are more than reasonable, their first in the Emerald Graves is pleasant and if we give the Keeper the true account of Red Crossing, he'll acknowledge the Dalish's role in the tragedy and immediately sends a mourning halla, one of the Dalish's most prized animals and friends, as they are not beasts of burden, to the humans by way of apology, whereas the Chantry whitewashes the truth and makes it seem like the Dalish have ALL fault for the massacre and completely ignore the humans role in a conflict that was built from misunderstanding and faults on both sides. 

 

The Lavellan Clan for a Dalish Inquisitor are also prime examples of perfectly reasonable elves who get along with humans for the most part. But even they have to travel between the borders of the Free Marches City-States to avoid getting wiped out to keep the humans from wanting to provoke a war with another monarch. 

 

So, yes there is racism among the Dalish, I find that most of it is actually aggressive caution because they would otherwise be wiped out.

 

 

I notice you didn't mention a few of the other relevant clans and examples- the clan of the Masked Empire, the Dalish Warden's clan in which the response to coming across a human was a debate over whether to kill him or not, and Velanna's clan (or whatever her spinoff group should be called)

 

Human society-iniated clan wipe outs in Dragon Age at this point is... zero? Maybe one- Clan Levellan via war tables. Whereas every dalish wipeout we've seen or read in the books or base games has been a consequence of their 'aggressive caution' rather than the humans. Zarathians's revenge, Valanna's vendetta, Merril and her Keeper, and Masked Empire clan with the Choice Spirit.

 

 

And no, the Dalish are not children, but they are not united. From the Masked Emperor, the three games and the lore in general we know for a fact that while the Dalish have the same religious beliefs, one clan may differ greatly from another in how they approach humans. Some, like the Lavellan are very reasonable, but others further north are said to be little better than bandits. 

 

They would need a land to unite them and be able to enforce a cultural identity that is universal, with a set of rules and laws, and the various clans would overcome the disconnect from being apart so long actually brings. 

 

It's just sociology in a nutshell. Clans are separate so they develop their own unique cultures within their clans, and the clans are only united by their desire not to be overtaken by humans and a shared religion. Only unity without separation can bring them under a true cultural identity. 

 

Between the Chantry and the Qunari, there are no elven cultures that are strictly elven outside of the Dalish as a whole. 

 

 

Why is strictly elven desirable? Besides racism, I mean.
 

More to the point- is a universal Dalish culture being enforced even a good thing?

 

3. I'd be all for it. Ameridan was a cool bean in wanting to keep the elves of the Dales from practicing isolationist policies and worshipped both the creators AND the Maker. 

 

As for the true history. We know that the evanuris may not have been gods, but they are extremely powerful immortals. If this is taught, and believed by the elves they may stop trying to reach out to them and instead build up on their own. We know that the valleslin used to be slave markings but they are not that anymore and are signs of adulthood, so I see no need to change that as a long-forgotten custom has naturally evolved into something very different from its original meaning. 

 

Kind of like the word "gay." It used to mean joyful, happy, merry making, and it still does for the very few who use it that way, but that definition has long been forgotten by the cultural connotations that have overshadowed it and thereby gave it a new definition. 

 

As for bringing about their own ruin? I find that highly debatable. They wiped themselves out with Arlathan and Solas essentially destroyed the whole empire by raising the veil, but Tevinter still conquered the remaining elves and forced them into slavery. The Dales were conquered in an exalted march by the chantry and by humans over a misunderstanding at Red Crossing that had both sides at fault. 

 

The misunderstanding, in its entirety would have to be taught to the elves and they would have to recognize their own fault, but that does not mean that the humans own religious fervor and Orlais's need to dominate everything they cast their eyes on has no bearing on the discussion. 

 

 

 

I'm cool with the 'not the Dales'- but you're not really describe a 'true' history here. You're describing a subjective interpretation of history. What is the penalties for people who disagree with your interpretation and try to preach their own?

 

 

Humans bear, in my opinion, 65% of the blame for the fall of the Dales, because even though the war started on a misunderstanding and cultural tensions created by both sides, it was Orlais and the Chantry that sought ethnic cleansing and outlawed the elves religion.

 

The war didn't start based on a misunderstanding or cultural tension- it started because a Dales military unit massacred a settlement unprovoked and the rest of the Dales decided to use that as a pretext for a unilateral invasion. Humans weren't at fault, in any respect, for Red Crossing- or the subsequent Dales invasion and sacking of the Orlesian capital.

 

Well, not unless we accept 'stupid sexy humans', and a tolerance for interracial marriage, as faults.

 

Kinda hard to say Humans bear the blame for how the war ended, unless you ignore how it began.

[dragonflight288]

I'm proud of you, dragonflight.

 

No, I'm not being sarcast- I'm honestly pleased at your honesty. A lot of people duck behind modern rhetoric of multiculturalism- all cultures are equal, absolute moral relativism- even if they argue otherwise. You didn't, and you can articulate your views, and I approve of that.

 

 

Now, next time, we can argue if the Dalish culture is better or worse. I'll give you a friendly start.

 

 

I try to be honest and express my views as they exist. I also try not to get bogged down by rhetoric. I'll call a spade a spade even if saying so isn't popular in a multi-cultural atmosphere I was surrounded with in college. 

 

And SWEET!   You've also been very articulate yourself in expressing your opinions and can back up your assertions with either facts or solid logic. You've had my respect for some time.

 

 

In seven hundred years, city elves in Orlais have gotten a cultural reformer (Celene) who is interested in reforming society to be more open to them, her only credible rival (Gaspard) is willing to judge them on their abilities and will keep his word with them rather than dismiss them on race alone, and a potential noble interested in playing the Game on their behalf (Briala). Nowhere near 'great', but significant and real improvements in their status and propsects.

 

In seven hundred years, what have the Dalish gotten except hard souls (and hard soles) from walking around all the time? They any closer to a healthy culture?

 

 

No, but they are often hunted by Templars for their Keepers and mages (Dragon Age: Redemption,) hunted for sport by some Orlesian nobles (some side comment in Val Royeaux I heard,) facing humans looking for a fight (those humans that a Dalish Warden can let go will rally the town to attack the clan, which is why they leave, and also why the Lavellan clan stays close to the city-states in the Free Marches so if humans attack they may provoke a response from that particular city-state.)

 

Celene may be trying for reforms, but her actions clearly show just where her priorities are. When things start looking bad for her politically she'll raze an alienage alongside putting down a rebellion just to keep from looking bad, and Gaspard, while a man of his word, also sees elves as rabbits, or less than human, according to Inquisition. 

 

Sad fact is that most humans don't see elves as being equal to humans and it doesn't help that, as Giselle says, the Chantry says they are further from the Maker than humans as a political ploy to keep them out of the priesthood. 

 

Now, if there was a nation of humans who stood up and said elves were equal to humans and gave them equal rights, and by that I mean humans would be treated equally before the law as the elves, and elves could achieve status and possibly be given noble titles through their achievements then I would definitely say that working with humans would improve their lot in life and such a culture would be worth assimilating into. 

 

As it is, I see no evidence that besides a few reformers here and there that things will improve for elves at a societal level among the humans no matter the country. I mean, Alistair gave a Dalish Warden land for the elves and the local humans kind of utterly ruined that and drove the elves out and you get an immediate dock in points at the Winter Palace just for being an elf, because that is how they are viewed. 

 

 

I notice you didn't mention a few of the other relevant clans and examples- the clan of the Masked Empire, the Dalish Warden's clan in which the response to coming across a human was a debate over whether to kill him or not, and Velanna's clan (or whatever her spinoff group should be called)

 

Human society-iniated clan wipe outs in Dragon Age at this point is... zero? Maybe one- Clan Levellan via war tables. Whereas every dalish wipeout we've seen or read in the books or base games has been a consequence of their 'aggressive caution' rather than the humans. Zarathians's revenge, Valanna's vendetta, Merril and her Keeper, and Masked Empire clan with the Choice Spirit.

 

 

I didn't mention them because they weren't the most reasonable clans.  Though they do exist as proof that the separation of the clans keep them from being truly united culturally as they have different interpretations of the same beliefs. 

 

Kind of like most religions in real life to be honest. 

 

AS for clans destroyed by preemptive attacks by humans, zero that we know of specifically, true, but as I said before, there have been a few examples in the lore and the games that show definite preemptive aggression by humans. Whether for racism (Vaughn, that one templar who threatened Merethari's clan and outright said she didn't care about the opinions of some knife-ears,) or for religious reasons, like the templars hunting the keepers, firsts and other mages, which Merrill tells us and we see that one templar again threatening the clan after taking a young hunter and torturing him with fire. 

 

 

 

 

Why is strictly elven desirable? Besides racism, I mean.
 

More to the point- is a universal Dalish culture being enforced even a good thing?

 

 

Well, as I said, I thought Ameridan was a cool cat with his whole no-isolation, being best friends with Drakon and worshipping both the creators and the Maker so I don't think it would need to be strictly elven, but considering the recessive genes that elves have, an elf and a human always make a human as well as the level of dominance the Chantry and the various human nations have, I think it would be worth it to have a predominantly elven nation where they can live on their terms and not the terms of such and such lord or the chantry and then see what they make of it before judging it.

 

And a universal Dalish culture wouldn't necessarily be what I'm aiming for, but as the Dalish are the only ones who take any significant pride in being elven, I think they can lay a foundation for a future society, subject to reforms as there is a huge difference between running a country with friendly and no so friendly neighbors outside the borders and friendly or not-so-friendly dissidents within and being a nomadic clan. 

 

Their ability to commune with the halla is unique to them and they don't have beasts of burden so much as friends with them. 

 

While wrong on many respects, they have also been surprisingly accurate on the existence of their gods/evanuris considering the length of time they were slaves.

 

 

I'm cool with the 'not the Dales'- but you're not really describe a 'true' history here. You're describing a subjective interpretation of history. What is the penalties for people who disagree with your interpretation and try to preach their own?

 

The war didn't start based on a misunderstanding or cultural tension- it started because a Dales military unit massacred a settlement unprovoked and the rest of the Dales decided to use that as a pretext for a unilateral invasion. Humans weren't at fault, in any respect, for Red Crossing- or the subsequent Dales invasion and sacking of the Orlesian capital.

 

Well, not unless we accept 'stupid sexy humans', and a tolerance for interracial marriage, as faults.

 

Kinda hard to say Humans bear the blame for how the war ended, unless you ignore how it began.

 

Red Crossing started with a murder of an elf, another elf went to be with his lover and not-really-convert as he gave as much credence to his own religion and the maker and just wanted to be with her, but the murdered elf's sister and a group of emerald knights, fearing he was a traitor went in after him and the sister shot the lover as all she could make out was that she was running at them with something in the hand and was shocked to discover daisies and the humans attacked in retaliation, killing the elven lover who refused to leave his beloved's side and the emerald knights had to fight their way out, killing many humans in the process. 

 

It really was just a huge and tragic misunderstanding. The villagers were no match for the Emerald Knights, who are probably the cream of the crop for the Dalish, and one member of the knights was hasty because she was grieving because her sister was murdered and they suspected a traitor. 

 

Both sides were at fault for that. 

 

And those can probably be faults as well, along with "Beautifully dexterous elves that humans are jealous of."  Leliana outright says in Origins that some Orlesian nobles value elves because they are naturally dexterous. 

 

I don't really say humans have all the blame. They won the war, as such things happen, but I do assign them more blame than I do elves for the complete destruction of the elven country and the ethnic cleansing. 

[Gervaise]

The reason the elves of the Dales were in favour of just shutting their borders and keeping everyone else out was largely because of their experiences during the previous several thousand years.   Those who took the long march to freedom were determined never again to let their children have to endure what they had.    Elves had not simply been down trodden workers in Tevinter, they had been seen as magical fodder to fuel spells.    Blood magic was more effective when using elves because of the magic in their blood.   Probably the reason the Tevinter just didn't try and breed them out of existence was largely because of this ironic benefit of keeping them elves.   Somehow through all the oppression they had managed to keep some of their racial memories in tact, probably through folk tales handed down through the years, and this meant a great deal to them.    They wanted to feel they were distinctly different from the world around them and to recover what they once were; the very fact that Tevinter recognised something special in their blood would reinforce the idea that elves are meant to be different.   Inter racial marriage was discouraged principally because it would result in the extinction of their race.  

 

We are told that Shartan didn't just dream of freedom for his people but a homeland where they would be safe.    Without actually consulting with the spirit of Andraste, we will never know exactly what she taught but you have to assume that she at least supported him in this because otherwise Maferath and his sons would never have honoured her memory in that way.     I would also point out that Andraste was meant to have taught that the blight and darkspawn were a punishment inflicted on erring humans by the Maker.   If that is the case, you have a situation where Drakon starts a new religion purporting to be in Andraste's name and starts actively trying to convert everyone else to it, and shortly after a new Blight begins.     So, leaving aside Ameridan and his friendship because people are arguing that he didn't represent the Dales but only the Inquisition, might not the elves, who revered Andraste as the friend of Shartan who helped win their freedom, think that the darkspawn attacking Orlais was an indication that the Chantry did not enjoy the Maker's favour and this reinforced their decision not to intervene, particularly if the darkspawn seemed to have no interest in attacking the Dales.   Just a thought.

 

There seems to be a argument being made here that the Dalish should accept the inevitable and assimilate into the surrounding human culture because there is no way they are ever going to have the power to restore an elven homeland and the humans call the shots in Thedas.    That is ridiculous.   For a start off this has been the situations since the fall of the Dales and yet the Dalish have managed to survive everything thrown at them since then.   Just because everyone else  is stronger than you is not a reason to abandon your culture.     If the humans won't accept Dalish living according to their own ways within their communities, then there is no choice but to keep moving.      As nomads they have their freedom and autonomy.   They decide how they live.     Usually they leave humans alone because it is expedient to do so but also because at times they do need to trade for things they cannot make or hunt for themselves.   There are more aggressive clans or individuals among the less aggressive ones but on the whole all the Dalish ask is to be left in peace to live their lives as they wish.

 

If they abandon their way of life in the hope of acceptance by the humans they will become second class citizens, just like the city elves.    Whilst there are some decent humans who treat them like equals, most of whom seem to be in the Inquisition, the general attitude is they are little more than animals to be used as seen fit.   Even Ferelden has a law that makes it an offence to defend an elf; if you harm someone in doing so then you are guilty of a crime.    Whilst Celene has made some improvements in Orlais, the Chevaliers still train by indiscriminate killing of elves, nobles still hunt them for sport, elves need special permits to leave the alienage and trade elsewhere (this is true in Ferelden too), they are given insulting names, they are beaten for even looking a bit defiant, and an elven girl has to be very careful not to look too inviting or risk rape.  If they are raped they have little hope of anything being done about it; even Aveline didn't take any action over one of her guards raping an elf girl until her brothers were forced into taking the law into their own hands (which is what Hawke and co do all the time but for them it is okay).  The elves in Halamshiral revolted over an injustice of a noble butchering an elven merchant for no greater crime than a protecting a child from the wrath of the noble for throwing a stone.    Celene initially agreed to try and solve this by having her spy master kill the noble in secret but when Gaspard sponsored a play that was actually just as insulting to the prophet Andraste as it was insinuating about Celene, she decided to show her strength by marching on the elves and massacring them.    No option was given to surrender; her trained soldiers just slaughtered any out in the open (which they were accustomed to doing as Chevaliers) and then she torched the area, so any still hidden (who were likely non combatants and children) were burned to death.    Judging by the resistance that is given to Leliana's reforms of the Chantry, I doubt the situation for city elves generally is going to change any time soon.    Hardly surprising they are either joining the Qun or fleeing to the promises of Fen'Harel.

 

That is the sort of life that the Dalish have to look forward to if they abandon their traditions and customs and accept human culture.    Small wonder they feel it is not worth the price of a stable existence.    So until the day that a monarch enacts a law that makes all citizens equal under the law, the Dalish are better off out on the road.     I would note that there is a semi-permanent settlement of Dalish up in Rivain, where the people generally follow the rule of their wise women rather than the Chantry.   So clearly co-existence is possible whilst not surrendering your own values; just not in Chantry dominated lands (which includes Tevinter).

[Ieldra]

In answer to the OP's question:

 

They should know and accept the truth about their gods. Beyond that, whatever works for them. I can't imagine everything to continue unchanged though. A worshipful attitude towards gods who enslaved them isn't conducive to a positive attitude towards one's cultural identity. The custom of face-painting as a ritual of adulthood won't remain unchanged either - the custom is now irrevocably tainted - but it's also not necessary to do away with it completely. Maybe a change in art style and color is in order.

 

It is my impression that the Dalish are stuck in the past. This is their chance to adopt a healthier attitude, which means, take from the past what was good about it and reject the bad stuff. Elvhenan was an impressive and beautiful place in many ways. Those deserve to be remembered. The bad stuff must be remembered too, and if it is, it will also be a part of the new cultural identity, but more as a reminder that just because something was ancient it wasn't necessarily good.

 

Furthermore, the true history of the elves should do away with their victim complex. Sure, there was Tevinter's incursion and the Exalted March, but it wasn't humans who destroyed their ancient empire, they did it to themselves, and if they want to remake some of it, they'll have to look to the future. 

 

And lastly, emancipation from one's gods is good, from my point of view.

 

So....I guess that's a vote for change. Please note that this does not in any way entail "accepting human culture". Change need not destroy your identity, it just gives it a new foundation. It may drive them into Solas' arms though.

[Dean_the_Young]

The reason the elves of the Dales were in favour of just shutting their borders and keeping everyone else out was largely because of their experiences during the previous several thousand years.   Those who took the long march to freedom were determined never again to let their children have to endure what they had.    Elves had not simply been down trodden workers in Tevinter, they had been seen as magical fodder to fuel spells.    Blood magic was more effective when using elves because of the magic in their blood.   Probably the reason the Tevinter just didn't try and breed them out of existence was largely because of this ironic benefit of keeping them elves.   Somehow through all the oppression they had managed to keep some of their racial memories in tact, probably through folk tales handed down through the years, and this meant a great deal to them.    They wanted to feel they were distinctly different from the world around them and to recover what they once were; the very fact that Tevinter recognised something special in their blood would reinforce the idea that elves are meant to be different.   Inter racial marriage was discouraged principally because it would result in the extinction of their race. 

 

 

That's a great argument if we presuppose racism and that all humans are like Tevinter. Not so much otherwise.

 

As Humans aren't a hive-mind like the darkspawn, 'racial memory' is not an excuse to treat all other cultues, including historic allies, as Tevinter.
 

 

We are told that Shartan didn't just dream of freedom for his people but a homeland where they would be safe.    Without actually consulting with the spirit of Andraste, we will never know exactly what she taught but you have to assume that she at least supported him in this because otherwise Maferath and his sons would never have honoured her memory in that way.     I would also point out that Andraste was meant to have taught that the blight and darkspawn were a punishment inflicted on erring humans by the Maker.   If that is the case, you have a situation where Drakon starts a new religion purporting to be in Andraste's name and starts actively trying to convert everyone else to it, and shortly after a new Blight begins.     So, leaving aside Ameridan and his friendship because people are arguing that he didn't represent the Dales but only the Inquisition, might not the elves, who revered Andraste as the friend of Shartan who helped win their freedom, think that the darkspawn attacking Orlais was an indication that the Chantry did not enjoy the Maker's favour and this reinforced their decision not to intervene, particularly if the darkspawn seemed to have no interest in attacking the Dales.   Just a thought.

 

 

And a poor one. For one, if the Dales are arguing (and there's nothing to indicate they did) that the Blight is the Maker's wrath, then they're conceding to belief of the maker- and thus the ban on Andrastianism and dialogue on faith is hypocritical.

 

For another, this again appeals to the origin of the Dales (Shartan's intent and Andraste's debt) and not the cause of it's fall (the Dales war on Orlais). Unless you intend to argue that the Andraste and Shartan's legitimacy of a homeland was an infinite blank check, that the Dales would not only be granted a land but would be secure it in no matter what they did to the Andrastians, the debt of Andrastians to Shartan is not violated by the fall of the Dales.

 

 

There seems to be a argument being made here that the Dalish should accept the inevitable and assimilate into the surrounding human culture because there is no way they are ever going to have the power to restore an elven homeland and the humans call the shots in Thedas.    That is ridiculous.   For a start off this has been the situations since the fall of the Dales and yet the Dalish have managed to survive everything thrown at them since then.   Just because everyone else  is stronger than you is not a reason to abandon your culture.     If the humans won't accept Dalish living according to their own ways within their communities, then there is no choice but to keep moving.      As nomads they have their freedom and autonomy.   They decide how they live.     Usually they leave humans alone because it is expedient to do so but also because at times they do need to trade for things they cannot make or hunt for themselves.   There are more aggressive clans or individuals among the less aggressive ones but on the whole all the Dalish ask is to be left in peace to live their lives as they wish.

 

 

 

'As they wish' currently entails dangerous demonology in human lands, poaching in human lands, and occasionally murdering humans in human lands.

 

But to the earlier part- 'just because everyone else is stronger than you' is not a reason to abandon your culture. Having a self-defeating, self-marginalizing, and generally antagonistic culture when everyone else is stronger than you, however, is. To say they have survived is not enough- Tevinter has survived, and it is contemptable. It is also a temporary condition- the Dalish have not been destroyed (yet), largely because no one cares to, but their culture is fragmenting and diverging with no structural basis to expect a reversal. Whether humans crush them or not, Dalish culture as the Dalish know it is doomed- to either radical change, balkanization, or outright eradication. And that was before Solas woke up.

 

 

 

 

 

If they abandon their way of life in the hope of acceptance by the humans they will become second class citizens, just like the city elves.    Whilst there are some decent humans who treat them like equals, most of whom seem to be in the Inquisition, the general attitude is they are little more than animals to be used as seen fit.   Even Ferelden has a law that makes it an offence to defend an elf; if you harm someone in doing so then you are guilty of a crime.    Whilst Celene has made some improvements in Orlais, the Chevaliers still train by indiscriminate killing of elves, nobles still hunt them for sport, elves need special permits to leave the alienage and trade elsewhere (this is true in Ferelden too), they are given insulting names, they are beaten for even looking a bit defiant, and an elven girl has to be very careful not to look too inviting or risk rape.  If they are raped they have little hope of anything being done about it; even Aveline didn't take any action over one of her guards raping an elf girl until her brothers were forced into taking the law into their own hands (which is what Hawke and co do all the time but for them it is okay).  The elves in Halamshiral revolted over an injustice of a noble butchering an elven merchant for no greater crime than a protecting a child from the wrath of the noble for throwing a stone.    Celene initially agreed to try and solve this by having her spy master kill the noble in secret but when Gaspard sponsored a play that was actually just as insulting to the prophet Andraste as it was insinuating about Celene, she decided to show her strength by marching on the elves and massacring them.    No option was given to surrender; her trained soldiers just slaughtered any out in the open (which they were accustomed to doing as Chevaliers) and then she torched the area, so any still hidden (who were likely non combatants and children) were burned to death.    Judging by the resistance that is given to Leliana's reforms of the Chantry, I doubt the situation for city elves generally is going to change any time soon.    Hardly surprising they are either joining the Qun or fleeing to the promises of Fen'Harel.

 

 

You assume the Dales aren't also second class citizens. They aren't, true- but only because they are worse in the eyes of the lands they travel. Every legal indignity you list applies to the Dalish as well, and then some- because despite the things human nobles can get away with, the Chantry also offers legitimization and some form of support for the city-elves.

 

The Dalish are not above the contempt of Humans, safe and secure in respect. The Dalish live in fear of the humans, constantly flee from humans, and have crafted Humans as the cultural boogeyman for all that is wrong, while casting themselves in the heroic role of loser to humans across history and disempowering themselves from the responsibility of their own past.

 

And for all that, the Dalish aren't respected by Humans. A little fear from the locals, as afraid of the Dalish as the Dalish are of them, but no broad respect or admiration for the Dalish culture or society. There is idle curiosity at best, and less than that in most. Human powers and peoples pay nowhere near the attention to the Dalish that the Dalish do the humans. To the Human Kingdoms, the Dalish are an afterthought, a pest to be shooed away (and who generally stays shooed) while Important People are worried and concerned about Important Things.

 

The Dalish can claim to have pride, in things we know are often lies and half-truths at best. And they can claim to inspire a little fear from weak and isolated rural villages. But they can't claim to be respected or better than second-class citizens in the Kingdoms they traverse through.
 

 

 

That is the sort of life that the Dalish have to look forward to if they abandon their traditions and customs and accept human culture.    Small wonder they feel it is not worth the price of a stable existence.    So until the day that a monarch enacts a law that makes all citizens equal under the law, the Dalish are better off out on the road.     I would note that there is a semi-permanent settlement of Dalish up in Rivain, where the people generally follow the rule of their wise women rather than the Chantry.   So clearly co-existence is possible whilst not surrendering your own values; just not in Chantry dominated lands (which includes Tevinter).

 

 

The Rivain encampent is also near the city, where the Andrastians dominate, rather than the rural areas with under the abominations that are Seers.

 

And as for better- if we go back to agreeing on 'what they have to look forward to', then let's be frank about what the Dalish clans are actually looking forward to: the smug superiority of a life on the run, whispering tales of malevolent humans who barely care enough to acknowledge them, and romanticizing the days they were once slaves. At least until some one summons a demon or breaks the arravels or threatens the wrong human, and they have to run for their lives once more. With, and this is in one of those codexes, the hope/expectation that the Humans will kill themselves off and leave the elves to inherit Thedas, which will somehow stay empty and free from outside (or Qunari) interferance as the Dalish restore the 'true elf' land that they know almost nothing about.

 

Or they fail that, and get killed by a demon or local noble or something, who'd get even less legal and political consequence than sacking an alienage. And possibly a pat on the back.

 

Way to go, team Dalish.

[Dean_the_Young]

I try to be honest and express my views as they exist. I also try not to get bogged down by rhetoric. I'll call a spade a spade even if saying so isn't popular in a multi-cultural atmosphere I was surrounded with in college. 

 

And SWEET!   You've also been very articulate yourself in expressing your opinions and can back up your assertions with either facts or solid logic. You've had my respect for some time.

 

 

 

 

 

No, but they are often hunted by Templars for their Keepers and mages (Dragon Age: Redemption,) hunted for sport by some Orlesian nobles (some side comment in Val Royeaux I heard,) facing humans looking for a fight (those humans that a Dalish Warden can let go will rally the town to attack the clan, which is why they leave, and also why the Lavellan clan stays close to the city-states in the Free Marches so if humans attack they may provoke a response from that particular city-state.)

 

Celene may be trying for reforms, but her actions clearly show just where her priorities are. When things start looking bad for her politically she'll raze an alienage alongside putting down a rebellion just to keep from looking bad, and Gaspard, while a man of his word, also sees elves as rabbits, or less than human, according to Inquisition. 

 

Sad fact is that most humans don't see elves as being equal to humans and it doesn't help that, as Giselle says, the Chantry says they are further from the Maker than humans as a political ploy to keep them out of the priesthood. 

 

Now, if there was a nation of humans who stood up and said elves were equal to humans and gave them equal rights, and by that I mean humans would be treated equally before the law as the elves, and elves could achieve status and possibly be given noble titles through their achievements then I would definitely say that working with humans would improve their lot in life and such a culture would be worth assimilating into. 

 

As it is, I see no evidence that besides a few reformers here and there that things will improve for elves at a societal level among the humans no matter the country. I mean, Alistair gave a Dalish Warden land for the elves and the local humans kind of utterly ruined that and drove the elves out and you get an immediate dock in points at the Winter Palace just for being an elf, because that is how they are viewed. 

 

 

 

These are (mostly) fair criticisms of elves in Andrastian society. I could contest some of them, but it would be missing the point I was leading to:

 

After seven hundred years, Andrastian cultures are slowly but gradually moving towards coming to terms that racism may not be a cool thing after all, with a significant movement within the cultural moral authority supporting reforms and political rulers beginning to dispense positions of real power to elves. Not enough to expect any satisfaction, but undeniable progress.

 

Is this a better, or worse, cultural achievement than what the Dalish elves have accomplished in the same time frame?

 

Have the Dalish made as much progress towards racial equality? Have they made broad movements towards peace? Do they have a robust role of law- or any rule of law- that treats all citizens with equal respect regardless of birth or origin?

 

If we're going to judge by their perceptions by others- have the Dalish earned more respect and consideration than the City Elves?

 

 

 

 

I didn't mention them because they weren't the most reasonable clans.  Though they do exist as proof that the separation of the clans keep them from being truly united culturally as they have different interpretations of the same beliefs. 

 

Kind of like most religions in real life to be honest. 

 

AS for clans destroyed by preemptive attacks by humans, zero that we know of specifically, true, but as I said before, there have been a few examples in the lore and the games that show definite preemptive aggression by humans. Whether for racism (Vaughn, that one templar who threatened Merethari's clan and outright said she didn't care about the opinions of some knife-ears,) or for religious reasons, like the templars hunting the keepers, firsts and other mages, which Merrill tells us and we see that one templar again threatening the clan after taking a young hunter and torturing him with fire. 

 

 

 

 

So- having weighed the badness of the humans with the costs of themselves-

 

Are Andrastians the bigger threat to the Dalish, to justify being the cultural boogeyman, or are the Dalish?

 

 

 

Well, as I said, I thought Ameridan was a cool cat with his whole no-isolation, being best friends with Drakon and worshipping both the creators and the Maker so I don't think it would need to be strictly elven, but considering the recessive genes that elves have, an elf and a human always make a human as well as the level of dominance the Chantry and the various human nations have, I think it would be worth it to have a predominantly elven nation where they can live on their terms and not the terms of such and such lord or the chantry and then see what they make of it before judging it.

 

And a universal Dalish culture wouldn't necessarily be what I'm aiming for, but as the Dalish are the only ones who take any significant pride in being elven, I think they can lay a foundation for a future society, subject to reforms as there is a huge difference between running a country with friendly and no so friendly neighbors outside the borders and friendly or not-so-friendly dissidents within and being a nomadic clan. 

 

Their ability to commune with the halla is unique to them and they don't have beasts of burden so much as friends with them. 

 

While wrong on many respects, they have also been surprisingly accurate on the existence of their gods/evanuris considering the length of time they were slaves.

 

 

 

Pardon me while I step over that low bar, dragon.

 

And, again- how are you going to keep or sustain this predominately elven nation if it wants to live on Andrastian terms? If it accepts humans, and human couplings, and more humans?

 

Or rather, how are you going to keep this predominately elven nation without validating many of the same practices and flaws you condemn in the human nations? Are these practices acceptable from the human perspective, but only conmdemnable and invalidated for the minority group?

 

Is, in other words, the problem not that there's punching down, but merely who there's punching down on?

 

 

 

 

 

Red Crossing started with a murder of an elf, another elf went to be with his lover and not-really-convert as he gave as much credence to his own religion and the maker and just wanted to be with her, but the murdered elf's sister and a group of emerald knights, fearing he was a traitor went in after him and the sister shot the lover as all she could make out was that she was running at them with something in the hand and was shocked to discover daisies and the humans attacked in retaliation, killing the elven lover who refused to leave his beloved's side and the emerald knights had to fight their way out, killing many humans in the process. 

 

It really was just a huge and tragic misunderstanding. The villagers were no match for the Emerald Knights, who are probably the cream of the crop for the Dalish, and one member of the knights was hasty because she was grieving because her sister was murdered and they suspected a traitor. 

 

Both sides were at fault for that. 

 

 

I'm going to say- no. And here's a point where you do lose a respect point.

 

The murder of the elf wasn't the action of a 'side'- and certainly not Red Crossing or the Chantry Sister or the elf defector. Unless it was sanctioned- and there is no evidence or claim that it was sanctioned- it does not serve as a justification for the Emerald Knights retaliating against Orlais or Red Crossing. Neither, frankly, does a defection.

 

The villagers are at not fault for fighting in defense of an unprovoked attack. The Emerald Knights are entirely responsible for being there in the first place. Being in grief does not justify war crimes or the recklessness that leads to them- that's victim-blaming of an atrocious.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And those can probably be faults as well, along with "Beautifully dexterous elves that humans are jealous of."  Leliana outright says in Origins that some Orlesian nobles value elves because they are naturally dexterous. 

 

I don't really say humans have all the blame. They won the war, as such things happen, but I do assign them more blame than I do elves for the complete destruction of the elven country and the ethnic cleansing. 

 

 

The fall of the Dales didn't have ethnic cleansing- or at least, not in the sense we know it. Cultural eradication, sure, but the elves were conquered, not removed- the alienages by all indications were a refugee crisis, rather than 'empty out the Dales.'

[Gervaise]

Most people who are not at the top of the food chain live in fear in Thedas.   In fact even the nobles live in fear of other nobles.   So the fact that the Dalish "live in fear" has nothing to do with it.   My point is that if you are an alienage elf you have no choice about where you live and the threats to you are very close and very real.   They have no hope of anything better.    Back in Origins there was a codex right at the beginning about that.    How a family might try and better themselves, work hard, get out of the alienage, only to be attacked by their human neighbours and driven back to "where they belong".

 

The Dalish do have a choice.   Their life is hard and generally one of survival but they decide where they go (human settlements allowing) and live their life according to their traditions and customs.    Their "hope" that one day they might once again have a homeland is probably not a very realistic one but it is more than an alienage elf has.    They have to watch out for numerous enemies but at least they have the option of running; where do you run in an alienage?     True the humans still regard the Dalish as inferior, second class citizens but the Dalish themselves do not.   That is the difference.   It is about self respect.

 

The Dalish also apparently have ancient agreements with the Grey Wardens and honour them.    So they are willing to work with other races.   

 

Elves have suffered for thousands of years at the hands of humans and continue to suffer.    I hardly think that warrants the accusation of a victim mentality.    Whatever went wrong in the Dales the bottom line was that the elven homeland stood in the way of Orlesian expansionism.    It is clear how strategically placed the Dales is.   Mother Giselle even maintains that it wasn't an Exalted March because only Orlais took part.    If that is true, then it wasn't about religion but a simple land grab.

 

Mind you I have to admit that now the Arbor Wilds is no longer protected by sentinels perhaps the Dalish should get in quick before anyone else does.   It looks a pleasant sort of place and clearly no one bothered much about it before or the sentinels would have been destroyed long since.   

[Dean_the_Young]

Most people who are not at the top of the food chain live in fear in Thedas.   In fact even the nobles live in fear of other nobles.   So the fact that the Dalish "live in fear" has nothing to do with it.   My point is that if you are an alienage elf you have no choice about where you live and the threats to you are very close and very real.   They have no hope of anything better.    Back in Origins there was a codex right at the beginning about that.    How a family might try and better themselves, work hard, get out of the alienage, only to be attacked by their human neighbours and driven back to "where they belong".

 

 

You're making more similarities between Dalish and city elves than differences. Dalish have no choice where they live because they're always fleeing rather than live in any place. The threats are both very real and only cease to be very close when they flee, until they come closer again. That have no hope, or pospects, of anything better on their current course- certainly not the sort of cultural reformations beginning in the Andrastian nations and politics since Origins. No amount of hunting or excellence as a Dalish removes them from living in nomadic poverty, still at risk of being attacked by human neihbors wherever they are and driven back to 'where they belong', which is anywhere but there.

 

 

 

 

 

The Dalish do have a choice.   Their life is hard and generally one of survival but they decide where they go (human settlements allowing) and live their life according to their traditions and customs.    Their "hope" that one day they might once again have a homeland is probably not a very realistic one but it is more than an alienage elf has.    They have to watch out for numerous enemies but at least they have the option of running; where do you run in an alienage?     True the humans still regard the Dalish as inferior, second class citizens but the Dalish themselves do not.   That is the difference.   It is about self respect.

 

 

City elves have traditions and customs as well- not only elven traditions, but Andrastian ones, which are 'theirs' as much as any elven tradition ever coulld be. They have the hope of social reform- which is not only realistic, but actually occurring in Andrastian thedas. And City Elves who do not like the alienage are often free to leave the cities and go to the Dalish- alienage walls are as much to keep the humans out as the elves in.

 

Self-respect is a funny thing to assign to the Dalish. Pride, certainly- excess amounts. But what I would consider self-respect is not denied to the city-elves, nor granted to the Dalish simply by virtue of clinging to a fictional self-vindicate (and self-victimizing) narrative that denies their own role in their history. You may not respect the city elves and the Dalish, but that's irrelevant to whether either can have or actually has self-respect.

 

 

 

The Dalish also apparently have ancient agreements with the Grey Wardens and honour them.    So they are willing to work with other races.   

 

 

 

I don't believe it was ever argued that the Dalish won't help in the face of a world cataclysm.

 

Clearly they learned something from the Dales.

 

 

Elves have suffered for thousands of years at the hands of humans and continue to suffer.    I hardly think that warrants the accusation of a victim mentality.    Whatever went wrong in the Dales the bottom line was that the elven homeland stood in the way of Orlesian expansionism.    It is clear how strategically placed the Dales is.   Mother Giselle even maintains that it wasn't an Exalted March because only Orlais took part.    If that is true, then it wasn't about religion but a simple land grab.

 

 

Orlais did not conquer the Dales merely to claim land. Orlais crushed the Dales because the Dales just invaded Orlais and sacked the Orlesian capital.

 

To claim it was a simple land grab, Orlesian and human greed, while ignoring this incredibly relevant fact of history is why the Dalish historical narrative is a victim mentality. No matter what the elves do, it can't be the cause of their suffering because humans are the real power, the strong race with agency.

 

It ignores extremely relevant circumstances that the Dales had responsibility for in order to trivialize their own relevance to why events happened.
 

 

Mind you I have to admit that now the Arbor Wilds is no longer protected by sentinels perhaps the Dalish should get in quick before anyone else does.   It looks a pleasant sort of place and clearly no one bothered much about it before or the sentinels would have been destroyed long since.   

 

 

Perhaps. There are far worse possibilities, even if settling down is anathema to Dalish cultural strategy.

[Dorrieb]

There's a difference between preserving the past and living in it. For example, it's one thing to know how people acted and what they believed in the 12th Century (we do), but it would be quite another to think and act, today, as if it were still the 12th Century, with added irony if we actually got it wrong.

 

By all means we should preserve and study history and culture, but not be tied to it. Traditions often turn into shackles that keep us as we are, preventing us from becoming what we could be. The elves shouldn't worship their so-called 'gods' or Andraste, they shouldn't worship anything. Worship itself is an act of submission, an admission that the object of your worship is 'higher' than you. Perhaps they are stronger, or more powerful, but higher? No. Let all gods, heroes, prophets, saviours, and heralds of Andraste die. The people don't need someone to look up to, they can look up to themselves.

 

Also, let go of concepts such as 'elf', 'dwarf', or 'human'. It's just another form of worship -- worship of our ancestors, as if they knew ourselves better than we do. We have more in common with each other than with them.

[Gervaise]

Living in the past isn't confined to the Dalish.    Tevinter does according to Dorian.    Walk down the street and see nothing built in the modern age.    Looking back nostalgically to when they ruled all Thedas.   Thinking they are superior to everyone else  (sound familiar?).    Orlais are still living by the Game when Drakon wanted to get rid of it 800 years ago, so they haven't moved on.    In fact the whole point of this fantasy world is that it doesn't change much.   

 

Actually a lot of the Dalish customs are more recent and really their own invention, since the ancient elves didn't roam around in the woods living in aravels.   However, I don't think the Dalish are committed to that life style.    If they could have a homeland, I don't think they would turn it down on the basis that they'd have to stay in one place.   

 

I just find it hard to understand why everyone seems to have such determination to run down the Dalish and thinks that they would be better off giving up or worse still, joining Solas, which is what the writers will probably have them doing.    As for the poverty of their situation, I'd like to quote Briala's view from Masked  Empire.   She had had a romantic view of the Dalish and got something of a rude awakening when she met them.   She seemed to have had an unreasonable expectation that the Dalish were working to help city elves, when as you have pointed out, they have their work cut out simply surviving.     Still, when getting the same reaction that Lavellan does from Abelas, her thoughts are:

 

"The words should have hurt, but Briala felt empty instead.   She looked at the elven children laughing and playing, elven hunters joking about their skill, elven cooks singing old songs while their apprentices cleaned up the dishes from breakfast.    Through open door of one of the wagons, she could see an old couple sleeping, snoring softly.   There were no princesses, no Fade spirits whisking through the aravels to do the laundry, but it was still more than she could have ever dreamed of.   None of them ducked their heads or watched with concern for the humans.   None of them feared a human walking into their camp to cause trouble."

 

So Briala, who has enjoyed the privileged life of Celene's lover but none the less never forgets where she came from, thinks that the Dalish are far better off than the city elves that she champions.    Her anger with them is because they don't care about the plight of the city elves but she still envies their lifestyle.    So hard and basic as it is, it would seem it is still way better than being a city elf.  

 

The view the Dalish have of their gods is an idealised one but is that any different to the Chantry?   Atheism isn't really an option in Thedas.    There may be the odd agnostic, like Aveline but on the whole people have a need to believe in something.   Even Dorian believes in the Maker.    Currently the majority of Dalish do not know the truth about their history but even so might well choose their own gods over following the Chantry line.     Plus we only have Solas word for how bad the evanuris were.   He says the elves of old wanted to keep things simple; good and evil, order instead of chaos.      That is essentially what every religion in Thedas is about and every religion in Thedas is several hundred, if not thousands of years old.     So why is it only the Dalish who are being vilified?

[Vit246]

So why is it only the Dalish who are being vilified?

 

Because the trope Screw You, Elves!

[Ashagar]

Because its hard to vilify the Qunari given they are fantasy 1984 and the Tenviter are evil but declining empire that practices blood magic but is the only thing between Thadas and the death, mental enslavement and worse of all of thadas at the hands of the Qunari? Also the Templars get vilified a lot by some who also give the rebel mages a free pass for trying to murder all the mages who wanted to stay loyal or neutral not to mention what they allowed to happen to the tranquil.

[IanPolaris]

But is the game actually trying to justify all the terrible actions that occurred to the elves after the Dales fell. The war itself could be argued to be justified (I really don't think so, Red Crossing was just one village after all) but everything you state is never really forgiven. 

Honestly I blame Bioware for this since the Dalish have been Character-Assassinated since at least TME.  For one thing Mother Giselle is a downright liar.  The Second Exalted March most certainly had a LOT more participation than just Orlais.  In fact it was the Chantry sticking it's nose in and making it a war of all humans against the heathen "blood-thirsty" and "baby killing" elves that made it possible for Orlais to survive.  Until that happened, Orlais was losing and losing badly.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

World of Thedas says explicitly that only orlesian troops fought, and that came out before DAI.

[Lumix19]

Honestly I blame Bioware for this since the Dalish have been Character-Assassinated since at least TME. For one thing Mother Giselle is a downright liar. The Second Exalted March most certainly had a LOT more participation than just Orlais. In fact it was the Chantry sticking it's nose in and making it a war of all humans against the heathen "blood-thirsty" and "baby killing" elves that made it possible for Orlais to survive. Until that happened, Orlais was losing and losing badly.

It's the fact that an Exalted March was called in the first place that grates my cheese. Giselle states that a March should only be declared if the fate of the world is at stake (or something like it). If it's a territorial issue than whatever, blame the elves sure, why were you in Red Crossing anyway? But when Orlais went and declared it a holy crusade, painted the Dalish as these heretics who sacrifice babies ("the dark elven heart" my foot) and used the name of Andraste as justification for destroying everything that Andraste had given Shartan... well needless to say it annoys me.
If Orlais were truly justified they would have painted the Dalish as these isolationist aggressors (which they did to a certain extent) but portraying them as this heretical evil doesn't do them any favors, this was clearly a political issue, not a religious one.

[GoldenGail3]

They should change, though i doubt they'd believe anything.....

[ModernAcademic]

Maybe the Dalish should stop behaving like victims and start being proactive.

They should unite the clans and plan ahead. The whole living in forests, shooting arrows and eating fruits while venerating dead gods plan is not really working.

 

 

Some people might argue they need guidance. True, but what guidance should that be? From Solas, the elf who despises his own people and would destroy the world in search of some long gone elven glory? I don't see how that can result in a good future for the People.

 

If anything, the elves must learn to coexist with other races and fight to be respected, to build their own society. Scattered and divided as they are now, they'll be easy prey to supremacists like the Dread Wolf.

 

As much as I hate Sera, she's one of the few elves who has actually taken a step toward this direction. The elven culture as it is, and as it was has become a burden modern elves drag wherever they go. It does nothing to help them live in the present and find their place in society. They accept their role as losers in the great game of war and politics and resign themselves to being a meek people, mere shadows living in the fringes of society.

 

They must shape new values for themselves and work hard to build the basis for their future society. More pragmatism, less attachment to things of the past that are long overdue.

No wonder elves who are not victimists join the Qun and learn to fight back against the system.