163 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

If anything, the elves must learn to coexist with other races and fight to be respected, to build their own society. Scattered and divided as they are now, they'll be easy prey to supremacists like the Dread Wolf.

 

It's hard for a rabbit to co-exist with a hungry wolf, and frankly for most of recorded history, humanity HAS been the hungry wolf w/r/t the Elves.  Let's be brutally honest; the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry broke Andraste's promise.  Whatever justifications they both want to make for it, it is what it is.  If you think the Dalish must learn to co-exist, it might behoove others to allow them to do so without being culturally and religiously eaten.

 

As for the Exalted March, I ignore World of Thedas since that's where much of this obnoxious retconning got started.  I go with the DAO codex entries on Exalted Marches and those make it very clear they were multinational affairs.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Maybe self-extinction?

[Jaison1986]

In my opinion, the Dalish just need to let go and start their vision from scratch. Let go of the past and try to find new meaning to their existance. Of course, they won't do that. They are too ignorant to accept the truth about their past. But it's not like I blame them. I'm sure most andrastians would prefer death then accept what they believe is a lie, in case we are ever presented to proof of such, that is.

 

But the truth is that the elves will never have a society of their own. The humans won't allow it. The Dales is all the proof we need. The closest for that to happen would be if one days human society was dismantled or destroyed and thus all races were allowed to restart civilization from a clean slate, were everyone could have a fair chance. Because as it is now, humans are too territorial to ever allow other races to rise to the same status as them.

[Gervaise]

Actually World of Thedas should not be treated as an infallible history book but more a record as might be found in the archives in Thedas.    The addendum to WoT2 correcting "mistakes" in the previous edition is said to he "A List of Errata by Brother Genitivi", so much of what WoT contains is history as seen through the eyes of a Chantry Scholar and Genitive has always been more biased in his interpretation of history than Sister Petrine.    WoT2 actually has lines from her writing on Glandivalis blanked out as they would be if they had been censored by the Chantry, so to get the full text you have to go to DA2 (or the Wiki).    

 

In much of what I have written above, I have taken the position of "devil's advocate" when defending the Dalish.    However, having role played a Dalish Inquisitor, I am more sympathetic to them than I once was, having been far more of a city elf at heart after Origins.    The view my Lavellan takes is that their customs are not invalidated by history simply because they didn't get it exactly right.    Take the vallaslin for example.    Solas says they are slave markings.   They do seem to have been markings either given to or accepted by servants of individual "gods" to indicate their allegiance.   Abelas says he "serves" Mythal.    Servant or slave?   Your choice.   Whoever drinks from the Well will be "bound as we are bound" to the will of Mythal.   No one forces either Morrigan or the Inquisitor to do that; it is their own free choice.    So who is to say that this was not the case in the past with the elves and their gods?    Modern Dalish take vallaslin as a sort of right of passage into adulthood.   They mark themselves with the vallaslin to indicate their allegiance to a god and presumably whatever aspect of Dalish life that god is thought to be responsible for.    Hunters tend to favour Andruil or possibly Ghilan'nain, hearth keepers Sylaise, crafts people favour June.    My own elf has the markings of Mythal because he wanted to devote himself to being a protector of the clan.    So their beliefs about their gods have a meaning to them; the vallaslin have a meaning to them, that has transcended the original purpose, whatever it was.   What is so wrong with them wanting to retain that tradition of the Dalish?

 

My ideal situation would be the one that I managed to bring about in Wycombe.    The clan originally had to move in closer to the city to escape being harried by bandits sponsored by the corrupt noble in charge of the city.   The Inquisition uncover the fact that he is poisoning the water supply with red lyrium but only that use by the human population, so the elves can be used as a scapegoat.    I messed up the first time round because when Leliana suggested we use Dalish assassins to take out the noble, I felt sure that was likely to backfire and it would rebound even worse on the clan as a result.    However, it turned out this was not the case and that was the best option.    It was noticeable that when things started to look bad, the Keeper of the clan would not simply run away because that would result in the city elves bearing the burden of hostility.    After the Inquisition resolved the situation, the city was left to be run by a council comprising human merchant class, city elves and the clan's Keeper.   Then Varric helps things along by offering them the official support of Kirkwall.   Since he has now restored Kirkwall's importance to the region, this bodes well for a continuance of that situation.    That is the sort of thing I would like to see expanded across Thedas.    There is no suggestion that the Lavellan clan have had to abandon their customs and embrace the Chantry to achieve this situation, just work together with the local community for the good of all.

 

The problem is that in the Freemarches this is possible because they are a collection of individual, self governing, city states.     They have a tradition of getting rid of corrupt nobles and leaders far more easily than in other parts of Thedas.     In any case, the writers back tracked on the Dalish boon that was given in honour of a Dalish Warden and by DA2 it had come to naught, so I dare say a similar situation will occur with Wycombe.    

 

If the writers want to allow the Dalish to have a more prominent role in Thedas, then they will; I fear it will be as fall guys for Solas.    Given the hatchet job done on their reputation in Masked Empire and with the new custom of dumping excess mage children in DAI, plus the apparent rubbishing of their customs (words put into the mouth of female Lavellan about "another thing we got wrong", when actually we got so much right), and the demonising of their gods, that seems to be the direction we are heading in.

[QueenCrow]

The elves all uniting to decide on a split decision between preservation and change is something that I don't consider a possibility unless Bioware goes all unbelievable on us.

 

The elves are already fractured - City elves, Dalish elves, with further fracturing between which alienage and which clan.

 

Add to that a knowledge of what's been revealed in game and I imagine that some elves, especially Dalish, would refuse to believe and would, no matter what evidence was presented about Fen'Harel, the Evanuris, or vallaslin, cling to their comfortable beliefs with all tenacity.

 

There may be some who would listen and consider reasonably enough to make a decision between preservation and change.

 

Then there may be others, such as my Lindraen Lavellan, who would be pissed off to the bone, wanting to breath the smoke of the world on fire, and dreaming each night of carving Solas the Dread Wolf into very small pieces.

 

 

[Dorrieb]

Living in the past isn't confined to the Dalish.    Tevinter does according to Dorian.   

But isn't the whole point of Dorian that he wants to change that and drag Tevinter kicking and screaming into the Century of the Fruitbat? Saying that the elves need to change isn't the same as saying that only the elves need to change. It only comes up because current revelations prove that the Dalish have it all wrong, but that doesn't mean that anyone else has it right.

 

Atheism isn't really an option in Thedas. 

 

Morrigan would disagree with you. 

 

...on the whole people have a need to believe in something.

 

No, that's just what they have been taught, as a way to keep them in their place. Serve the gods, serve the Maker, serve the Stone, serve the Qun, serve, serve. The elves have a fantastic opportunity to stop believing in imaginary masters and start serving themselves instead. How is that vilifying them?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Didn't David Gaider say Morrigan wasn't an atheist somewhere?

[IanPolaris]

Didn't David Gaider say Morrigan wasn't an atheist somewhere?

 

It's one of many ridiculous things that DG has said here and elsewhere.  By any reasonable definition of the term, Morrigan is in fact an atheist.  Actually (if you played the human noble), the Warden in DAO could be an atheist as well [an option that was specifically taken out in later games].  An atheist doesn't have to deny the existence of extremely powerful abilities (to the verge of being godlike); the atheist merely has to insist that these are just powerful beings and not worthy of worship...and in indeed either deny OR remain unconvinced that being(s) worthy of worship even exist.

 

By that standard (the most generally accepted standard of atheist btw), Morrigan was most definitely an atheist. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

You know what? The Dalish need a Cassandra.

 

Or at the very least an opportunity to come together and actually discuss the secrets and truths that have come about in Inquisition. Sort of like how Cassandra did the same to the remaining Seekers and not only rebuilt their order, but also re-purposed it for a collective greater goal that would lead them to towards something worth striving for. Hopefully that something won't be Solas and his plan, but maybe something that involves the abandonment of the whole "true elf" ideology and lead them to reach out to city elves. 

 

I mean, when you think about it the Dalish can be a rather decent situation by the end of Trespasser, or at the very least one that can be beneficially. Briala can be marquise in the Dales, two possible Divine's with a relatively open-minded opinion on other faiths and an elven Inquisitor with real politically power. 

 

Whatever they decide the fact of the matter is that their nomadic isolationism is a slow death for the Dalish people, the same way its a slow death for Tevinter ironically enough, and any new direction that at least tries to break it and focus on collectively making an effort to gain some form of integration and acceptance with the rest of Thedas, like say clan Lavellan's situation in Wycombe or Briala's possible control of the Dales, would be their best bet. 

[Todrazok]

I think the advice we gave Velanna is the best. Make up your own stories, give new meaning to old things, etc. Want they want to find and reclaim just isn't there at the end of the day, after all. Look forward, not backwards.

 

Oh and stop having the mages be the leaders. It sets a dangerous precedent should they ever be able to find a new homeland. And vice versa, of course. Just pick the best leaders on their merits.

 

This. I see this as what the Inquisitor has to convince Solas of aswell. 

[Bad King]

Maybe the Dalish should stop behaving like victims and start being proactive.

They should unite the clans and plan ahead. The whole living in forests, shooting arrows and eating fruits while venerating dead gods plan is not really working.

 

Not really working? They live much more fulfilling lives than their brethren in the cities (as well as most human peasants for that matter). They have freedom, pride and a sense of community. I find this quote (written by a Dalish hunter) from the codex in Dragon Age: Origins particularly relevant:

 

We owe nothing to anyone, we have no master but ourselves, and we go where the halla and the gods take us. There is nothing more wonderful than sitting on an aravel as it flies through the forest, pulled by our halla. We are truly free, for the first time in our people's history. Why should we change this?

[Ashagar]

It's one of many ridiculous things that DG has said here and elsewhere.  By any reasonable definition of the term, Morrigan is in fact an atheist.  Actually (if you played the human noble), the Warden in DAO could be an atheist as well [an option that was specifically taken out in later games].  An atheist doesn't have to deny the existence of extremely powerful abilities (to the verge of being godlike); the atheist merely has to insist that these are just powerful beings and not worthy of worship...and in indeed either deny OR remain unconvinced that being(s) worthy of worship even exist.

 

By that standard (the most generally accepted standard of atheist btw), Morrigan was most definitely an atheist. 

 

I would say that Morrgan given her behavior would be either a Nay Theist or Agnostic Theist not a atheist to be honest.

[ModernAcademic]

Not really working? They live much more fulfilling lives than their brethren in the cities (as well as most human peasants for that matter). They have freedom, pride and a sense of community. I find this quote (written by a Dalish hunter) from the codex in Dragon Age: Origins particularly relevant:

 

We owe nothing to anyone, we have no master but ourselves, and we go where the halla and the gods take us. There is nothing more wonderful than sitting on an aravel as it flies through the forest, pulled by our halla. We are truly free, for the first time in our people's history. Why should we change this?

 

Yes, but is that working to preserve who they are as a people? Some clans have fallen so far from their roots that they've become bandits. Other Dalish are so fascinated with what lies beyond that lifestyle that they abandon the safety of the clan and flee to the cities.

Wasn't that the case of Zevran's mother? Doesn't Zathrian's disciple share that curiosity? She asks you about how's life in the human cities.

The young grow impatient with the nomadic, repetitive life their brethren leads and yearn for something more. And they can't find it in their clan. They can't associate elves with that pursuit of a goal, of something more than just survival.

 

This choice of lifestyle has alienated them from the rest of Thedas. That's not a solution, merely a temporary measure. They're making no advancements. They build nothing. They worship gods who weren't even gods. Their tradition is transmitted orally. Their cultural legacy loses its authenticity after each generation. If they continue leading this nomadic existence, their identity as a people will weaken overtime until they no longer bear any resemblance to the elves of the Dales.

 

They have to do what Shartan did. Fight for a homeland. Find a safe place to stay, where they can mount a defense against humans and start building. Otherwise, they'll forget who they are and become a faceless people, forever segregated from their own History.

[DebatableBubble]

Maybe self-extinction?

 

I like this human!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Zevran's mother left the Dalish because she fell in love with a city elf. Lanaya is idly curious about the cities but has no desire to leave the clan, even to see if she has relatives there.

[IanPolaris]

I would say that Morrgan given her behavior would be either a Nay Theist or Agnostic Theist not a atheist to be honest.

 

Morrigan is definitely an atheist by any reasonable definition of the term.  A-Theist means one that does not believe in god(s).  Morrigan plainly does not.  Anything else that's said about this is simply window dressing...which is why DG's commentary on this topic was particularly silly.

[Bad King]

Yes, but is that working to preserve who they are as a people? Some clans have fallen so far from their roots that they've become bandits. Other Dalish are so fascinated with what lies beyond that lifestyle that they abandon the safety of the clan and flee to the cities.

Wasn't that the case of Zevran's mother? Doesn't Zathrian's disciple share that curiosity? She asks you about how's life in the human cities.

The young grow impatient with the nomadic, repetitive life their brethren leads and yearn for something more. And they can't find it in their clan. They can't associate elves with that pursuit of a goal, of something more than just survival.

 

This choice of lifestyle has alienated them from the rest of Thedas. That's not a solution, merely a temporary measure. They're making no advancements. They build nothing. They worship gods who weren't even gods. Their tradition is transmitted orally. Their cultural legacy loses its authenticity after each generation. If they continue leading this nomadic existence, their identity as a people will weaken overtime until they no longer bear any resemblance to the elves of the Dales.

 

They have to do what Shartan did. Fight for a homeland. Find a safe place to stay, where they can mount a defense against humans and start building. Otherwise, they'll forget who they are and become a faceless people, forever segregated from their own History.

 

From playing all the games and reading the books, I really haven't seen many Dalish who are eager to go and visit the human cities. Lanaya appears somewhat curious, but other than that there really aren't a great deal of examples of this, and any examples tend to be highly exceptional. On the other hand, we have met Dalish who were originally city elves and of course there was Feynriel who was a human protected by the Dalish from the Templars. There are indeed clans that resort to banditry, but how many of these there are is unclear: we certainly haven't seen any such clans so far in the DA universe.

 

Regarding 'advancement', of course, like the vast majority of humans and city elves, they aren't churning out big sparkly inventions or developing calculus, but they're nevertheless advancing: as Solas points out, the Dalish are continually adapting to their environments which are shaping and altering their culture, fine-tuning them to their specific circumstances. They have developed magics that nobody else seems to have, they skillfuly smith materials that nobody else appear able to, they keep halla and developed aravels and many of them trade with humans to acquire commodities that they desire from the human cities in exchange for some of the things they produce. 

 

Keepers are literate, so not everything is transmitted orally, but regardless, the fact that their culture is dynamic is in my view a great strength - it isn't stagnant and crumbling like some people on these forums claim. They are building on their past experiences to move their culture forward into the future. I also believe that their oral tradition is more robust than many people give it credit to be: aspects have certainly been twisted and changed, but the fact that they recall that the dread wolf banished and trapped the creators hundreds and hundreds of years later is rather astounding. Furthermore, the Dalish tribes' views of history are also shaped by their interaction with the material culture of ancient elves - they pick through elven ruins looking for clues in reconstructing their history (most Dalish you speak to very explicitly admit that their knowledge of the past is patchy) - they are some of Thedas' only archaeologists! Their nomadic lifestyles make them particularly good at discovering new information about their past as they adventure into new lands and discover their histories.

 

Regarding the elven gods, I'd dispute your view that they were not gods - if we use a narrow, monotheistic definition of godhood (omnipotence, omniscience etc.), then you're correct. But the vast majority of religions in human history have not defined their gods in such a way - they tend to define gods as being beings of exceptional power that have the ability to immensely transform nature and/or culture. The creators certainly fit this definition (according to both Dalish oral tradition and information from the ancient elven ruins in Inquisition). Whether they deserve to be revered is another matter, but as I mention in one of my posts above, the jury's still out on this question: we only have the word of the dreadwolf on what they were actually like. It could certainly be true that they were corrupt and ruthless, but even if this is correct, I don't see how it would affect the Dalish a great deal - they recognise already that the creators are gone, but they nevertheless continue to follow their guidelines (which have likely changed as the Dalish have themselves changed) which have been of great value to them and their culture. Just as many non-Christians in today's western world have moralities that are strongly shaped by Christianity, so the Dalish have and can continue to have moral codes that are shaped by gods that are no longer there and/or who were corrupted by power.

 

So I personally believe that their nomadic existence should continue - it clearly brings joy and purpose to the lives of many Dalish, though like you, I'm also in favour of them eventually building a homeland for those who wish to return to sedentism (and some could also live as nomads within the safer borders of that state).

[Gervaise]

I fully agree with what Bad King says.   Regarding oral traditions, I would point out that it can be a very reliable and robust way of preserving the history and traditions of a civilisation.   It all depends on how seriously the community regard this method of transmission.    Many cultural groups in our own world had an oral tradition and specific individuals in the community were charged with maintaining it; just as the Keepers and story tellers do in the Dalish.    It was only when the cultural community died out that the lore was lost because there was no one left to care about preserving it.     So long as the Dalish exist, so will their oral traditions be passed on.    One of the reasons for the ten year gathering of the clans is to exchange lore they have gathered in the intervening period and catch up on developments with the other clans.   So in a way this does allow their culture to evolve and grow whilst retaining their cultural identity.  

 

Based on what they remembered down the years and what they discovered in their travels, the Dalish got an awful lot of the history right, not wrong.    The only bit that was incorrect was that humans were responsible for their downfall but then the humans themselves (Tevinter) had encouraged that view and Abelas did say that the humans were effectively carrion creatures feeding on a corpse; well carrion creatures can be very aggressive and since the surviving elves were part of the corpse, even that memory isn't totally wrong.

 

Why is a culture only valid if it builds things?     There have been numerous nomadic cultures in our world that didn't build things.     The ancient elves built things and the largest monuments were built on the backs of slaves?    That is also true of Tevinter.    Same could be said to be true of the "great" civilisations and empires in our world.    So may be people are better off generally when a civilisation isn't dedicated to building things just for the sake of it and to reflect their sense of self importance.  

 

Morrigan and Averline are the exceptions that prove the rule about atheism and they are more truly agnostics.     The whole argument that was being made to us throughout DAI (being shoved down the throat of the Inquisitor whether they liked it or not) was that the Chantry was a unifying force throughout Thedas.  Even Dorian, who dislikes the Chantry, says he finds it comforting to think that the Maker is watching over us (even though the Maker seems to do very little other than just watch).  To my mind, if the Dalish beliefs are invalidated by what we learn of their gods, what of the Chantry?    If you haven't read WoT2 then go to the Wiki and see just how different the Chantry version of history is from what really happened with Andraste.    How few bits of the Chant of Light are even believed to have genuinely come from Andraste.   How many were written down years after the event.    Over the years bits of the Chant have been put in and then taken out again, mostly on the whim of one Divine or another.  

 

The Avaar worship "gods" who are really spirits.   They acknowledge them as such and are surprised when questioned about it.    The dwarves revere the Ancestors and the Stone.    The Dalish gods really did exist; they had particular areas of responsibility and it is these aspects that the Dalish follow, knowing from their own lore that the gods can't help them because they are shut away from them by the Dread Wolf. (All bar Mythal who seems to have no problem with the Dalish and frequently helps them - albeit for a price).  This has been the case since the time of the Dales (and probably long before then), so why is it suddenly so idiotic of them to continue to follow their faith just because the same Dread Wolf claims their gods were power hungry and corrupt and deserved to be banished?    You could just as easily show them the message from their gods that warns them against listening to the words of the Dread Wolf who will "offer advice that seems fair, but turns slowly to poison".  Even if their gods ultimately became corrupt, even Solas seems to suggest they didn't start off that way and it would seem it is this aspect of them that the Dalish remember and reproduce with their Keeper mages as guides and leaders of the community.  

 

On the whole it would seem that the Dalish, along with the Avaar, have the greatest degree of equality in their community, compared with the cultures around them.     The Keepers do not lord it over the others; there seems no particular class structure; no nobles and peasants; their laws apply equally to all.  There are no castless among the Dalish and so far as I am aware they marry where they choose; not arranged marriages for titles, power, prestige or material gain.    Respected elders within the community have responsibility for different areas of it.   I'm pretty sure no Dalish is ever forced to remain in the community if they do not wish to.  They may be banished if they do not abide by the rules that govern the community but that is true of every culture in Thedas; in some you aren't even given the option of leaving and are hunted down if you do.  That quote from DAO by Bad King just about sums up the reason why the Dalish live as they do and why this choice should be respected, not despised because it doesn't fit with modern notions of what a valid culture should be.    Just because some clans have lost their way and fallen from the ideal, doesn't invalidate all the rest.      

 

Saying that all the races would be better off not worshiping anyone at all just doesn't fit with the world they inhabit, since the writers have seen fit to make it a world where faith is an important facet of life.    However, their faith is not the only thing that defines the Dalish. 

[In Exile]

It's hard for a rabbit to co-exist with a hungry wolf, and frankly for most of recorded history, humanity HAS been the hungry wolf w/r/t the Elves. Let's be brutally honest; the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry broke Andraste's promise. Whatever justifications they both want to make for it, it is what it is. If you think the Dalish must learn to co-exist, it might behoove others to allow them to do so without being culturally and religiously eaten.

As for the Exalted March, I ignore World of Thedas since that's where much of this obnoxious retconning got started. I go with the DAO codex entries on Exalted Marches and those make it very clear they were multinational affairs.

Well, sort of. The Dales were the ones that either struck first or, on repelling an Orlesian invasion, decided to sack Orlais. These are the only two scenarios possible during the fall of the Dales. What Orlais did was monstrous, but there's a fair bit of evidence to suggest it was far closer to a result of their being lucky in winning the war and far less a product of their moral failing versus the Dales.

The Dalish are - even moreso than modern Andrastians - a culture with institutionalised racism as part of their religion. I would talk about them as a shinning example of tolerance or understanding. They're sympathetic in that they're victims, but they're very much the bullies in the small spheres of power left to them.

[In Exile]

In my opinion, the Dalish just need to let go and start their vision from scratch. Let go of the past and try to find new meaning to their existance. Of course, they won't do that. They are too ignorant to accept the truth about their past. But it's not like I blame them. I'm sure most andrastians would prefer death then accept what they believe is a lie, in case we are ever presented to proof of such, that is.

But the truth is that the elves will never have a society of their own. The humans won't allow it. The Dales is all the proof we need. The closest for that to happen would be if one days human society was dismantled or destroyed and thus all races were allowed to restart civilization from a clean slate, were everyone could have a fair chance. Because as it is now, humans are too territorial to ever allow other races to rise to the same status as them.

I think seeing it through a racial lens is a mistake. It's a bit like saying humans won't suffer a free "Free Marches" (given how often it was conquered). The elves are a different cultural group and in that regard co-existence was tough, but the historical record suggest the end result - Orlais victory - was at least partly the product of Dalish foreign policy (who isolated themselves as much as possible and had no political allies despite being of the view they had a hostile and expansionist neighbour).

[In Exile]

It's one of many ridiculous things that DG has said here and elsewhere. By any reasonable definition of the term, Morrigan is in fact an atheist. Actually (if you played the human noble), the Warden in DAO could be an atheist as well [an option that was specifically taken out in later games]. An atheist doesn't have to deny the existence of extremely powerful abilities (to the verge of being godlike); the atheist merely has to insist that these are just powerful beings and not worthy of worship...and in indeed either deny OR remain unconvinced that being(s) worthy of worship even exist.

By that standard (the most generally accepted standard of atheist btw), Morrigan was most definitely an atheist.

No. Not exactly. There's a huge gap between 'God might be real, but it's a real abomination unworthy of worship' and 'God is a made-up fantasy'. That said DG has really screwy views about how easy it was/is to be an atheist in a faux medieval era and how people were treated historically.

If you grant all of the attributes associated with a "god" to being, but deny it's worth worshiping, you're not an atheist. I guess "anti-theist" is a better term, but you don't really have IRL people believing in, say, the Christian God being totally real AND believing it's not worth worshiping. That's really more something you see atheists through out as a "by the way, even if you were right..."

You got the same quasi-atheistic option in DAI and DAO: I don't believe in the Maker. That's not exactly atheistic - anymore than saying "I don't believe in the Christian God" is atheistic.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There were so many different points I wanted to jump into this thread that now I'm not sure which post to reply to. I guess I'll start simple.

 

Actually World of Thedas should not be treated as an infallible history book but more a record as might be found in the archives in Thedas.    The addendum to WoT2 correcting "mistakes" in the previous edition is said to he "A List of Errata by Brother Genitivi", so much of what WoT contains is history as seen through the eyes of a Chantry Scholar and Genitive has always been more biased in his interpretation of history than Sister Petrine.    WoT2 actually has lines from her writing on Glandivalis blanked out as they would be if they had been censored by the Chantry, so to get the full text you have to go to DA2 (or the Wiki).    

 

As for the Exalted March, I ignore World of Thedas since that's where much of this obnoxious retconning got started.  I go with the DAO codex entries on Exalted Marches and those make it very clear they were multinational affairs.

 

World of Thedas Volume 2 is clearly written as something one or more biased human scholars would know. We can tell from the tone of the text and that it says several things we know to be false. 

 

World of Thedas Volume 1 however, is meant to be unbiased. The key at the start of the book says it's text is in universe but objective. It tends to be pretty careful to paint the unclear parts of history with ambiguity. But it's pretty explicit with saying only Orlais sent troops to fight in the Exalted March on the Dales. I'm also fairly sure the Dragon Age Origins' Codex don't mention how many nations took part in the Exalted March of the Dales. Even if it is a retcon though, that's still what the current lore is, not the old codex entries. I've been pissed by many a retcon in many a franchise, but there's really not much I can do about any of them.

 

In much of what I have written above, I have taken the position of "devil's advocate" when defending the Dalish.    However, having role played a Dalish Inquisitor, I am more sympathetic to them than I once was, having been far more of a city elf at heart after Origins.    The view my Lavellan takes is that their customs are not invalidated by history simply because they didn't get it exactly right.    Take the vallaslin for example.    Solas says they are slave markings.   They do seem to have been markings either given to or accepted by servants of individual "gods" to indicate their allegiance.   Abelas says he "serves" Mythal.    Servant or slave?   Your choice.   Whoever drinks from the Well will be "bound as we are bound" to the will of Mythal.   No one forces either Morrigan or the Inquisitor to do that; it is their own free choice.    So who is to say that this was not the case in the past with the elves and their gods?    Modern Dalish take vallaslin as a sort of right of passage into adulthood.   They mark themselves with the vallaslin to indicate their allegiance to a god and presumably whatever aspect of Dalish life that god is thought to be responsible for.    Hunters tend to favour Andruil or possibly Ghilan'nain, hearth keepers Sylaise, crafts people favour June.    My own elf has the markings of Mythal because he wanted to devote himself to being a protector of the clan.    So their beliefs about their gods have a meaning to them; the vallaslin have a meaning to them, that has transcended the original purpose, whatever it was.   What is so wrong with them wanting to retain that tradition of the Dalish?

 

If the writers want to allow the Dalish to have a more prominent role in Thedas, then they will; I fear it will be as fall guys for Solas.    Given the hatchet job done on their reputation in Masked Empire and with the new custom of dumping excess mage children in DAI, plus the apparent rubbishing of their customs (words put into the mouth of female Lavellan about "another thing we got wrong", when actually we got so much right), and the demonising of their gods, that seems to be the direction we are heading in.

 

The fact that Vallaslin was once slave branding is not really a problem because they mean something new and different and actually inspiring now. But the fact that they are markings that honor evil false gods makes even the new meaning the Dalish gave the something of a hollow lie.

 

I think seeing it through a racial lens is a mistake. It's a bit like saying humans won't suffer a free "Free Marches" (given how often it was conquered). The elves are a different cultural group and in that regard co-existence was tough, but the historical record suggest the end result - Orlais victory - was at least partly the product of Dalish foreign policy (who isolated themselves as much as possible and had no political allies despite being of the view they had a hostile and expansionist neighbour).

 

That's not really a good analogy. The Free Marches have been free for most of it's millennium long existence. Occasionally one or two city states are subjugated by another power, but it's almost always relatively brief. No foreign power has conquered the entire region since they became independent. In that same millennium, the elves had a free state for only the first third of that time and then spent the next 700 years as nomads or a brutalized subject people.

 

More than that though, no human nation that was ever conquered by another during that same period was as thoroughly obliterated and dismantled as the Dales. Neither Ferelden nor any Marcher state had their cities reduced to uninhabited ruins and people uprooted and scattered to across the continent. I don't think the Exalted Marches against Tevinter even tried doing that. Even the massacre of human Qunari was not so thorough that they don't still make up a sizable and apparently thriving portion of the the population of Rivain.

 

Merrill also mentions that part of the reason that the Dalish move around is that if they settle down anywhere, they eventually become targets for templars. So human nations do seem to reserve a special distaste for the idea of an elven rival. 

[In Exile]

That's not really a good analogy. The Free Marches have been free for most of it's millennium long existence. Occasionally one or two city states are subjugated by another power, but it's almost always relatively brief. No foreign power has conquered the entire region since they became independent. In that same millennium, the elves had a free state for only the first third of that time and then spent the next 700 years as nomads or a brutalized subject people.

More than that though, no human nation that was ever conquered by another during that same period was as thoroughly obliterated and dismantled as the Dales. Neither Ferelden nor any Marcher state had their cities reduced to uninhabited ruins and people uprooted and scattered to across the continent. I don't think the Exalted Marches against Tevinter even tried doing that. Even the massacre of human Qunari was not so thorough that they don't still make up a sizable and apparently thriving portion of the the population of Rivain.

Merrill also mentions that part of the reason that the Dalish move around is that if they settle down anywhere, they eventually become targets for templars. So human nations do seem to reserve a special distaste for the idea of an elven rival.

You're missing the point. When I say it isn't about race, I don't mean that the human nations are racist - they very clearly are racist. Rather, it's to show that when you see a cultural alignment - the humans are more or less culturally homogenous - you see a lot less of the sheer violence and brutality targeted at elves. And all of a sudden, when you see the opposite (Rivain), we're right back to massacres. The Qunari wholesale retreated before the Andrastians had the chance to repeat what they did to the Dales to all of Rivain, but they were certainly on pace for it - and that's a region where the cultural differences were less pronounced than with the elves and the degree of hostilities were likely not as significant (it wasn't so much the Rivani as the Qunari who were the sackers).

When I say that the elves fell because they were isolationist, it's because they actively worked to keep the Dales without allies. When you're in a power struggle with your nearby imperialistic neighbour, that's just incredibly stupid. Isolationism doesn't work when you can't physically isolate yourself and you're not overwhelmingly stronger than your neighbours.

As to the Free Marches, before Orlais retreated from the Region it was a Tevinter and then Orlesian fiefdom. That's as far as I'm aware a solid few centuries of subjugation.

But again my point is culture: it's not that the elves had pointy ears as much as it is that the elves were alien and actively isolationist. That's a losing proposition.

And it's pretty silly to cast the Dalish as a "rival". The templars hunt them for having apostates, and don't even do it that well or often. Next to coo-coo for cocopuffs Meredith, the Dalish were basically left alone for about 7 years. That's not to say the templars aren't the bad guys here - they are - but this isn't really about elves. The only confrontation we see between the templars and Dalish in DA2 is over Feynriel.

[Reznore57]

Well the Dales really had no choice but to be isolationist.

Remember the Dalish wants to recreate part of their ancient elven empire , and the thing was all about magic.

In the South , people freed themselves from Tevinter , I'm pretty sure the last thing they wanted to hear was the Dalish were busy rebuilding a magical empire right next to them.

 

They couldn't make allies with Tevinter , the other magical empire for obvious reasons .

The Dales weren't ment to last .

[In Exile]

Well the Dales really had no choice but to be isolationist.

Remember the Dalish wants to recreate part of their ancient elven empire , and the thing was all about magic.

In the South , people freed themselves from Tevinter , I'm pretty sure the last thing they wanted to hear was the Dalish were busy rebuilding a magical empire right next to them.

 

They couldn't make allies with Tevinter , the other magical empire for obvious reasons .

The Dales weren't ment to last .

 

Well, whenever you want to recreate a fantasy of your past, you're already got a serious issue with the founding of your country. Case in point, the elves had no idea that their previous empire was predicated on reality being totally and fundamentally different from the present one. So there is that part to it. There's also the part where they assumed their past was a racially pure utopia, which itself may have been false (i.e., for all they knew, their old elven empire was a cosmopolitan alliance of many peoples). 

 

But beyond that, the modern Chantry didn't quite exist in the form that it did when the Dales were first established, no? Drakon came later. There was a window to build a very different type of country.