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[Nhadalie]

She's my least favorite in Inquisition, but I do like her for what she is. A strong, independent woman who uses every advantage she has to get what she wants.

 

More often than not, I think of Vivienne as the snake in the garden. She will strike if she senses the opportunity, but if treated with respect and walked around carefully, she can be a valuable ally. There was never any doubt that she wanted to use the Inquisition for her own means. Her entire life has been a dance to work her way into the highest positions she can manage. I wouldn't be surprised if she joined the Inquisition with the thought that either she could become Divine herself, or mold the future into what she wants. The way she speaks about all of it suggests that it's true.

 

Has she had difficulties in life? Of course. And the scene with Duke Bastien made me feel for her. It was a brief glimpse at her humanity underneath all of her pride and ambition.

 

I haven't had her in my party much, because she simply doesn't fit with the things my characters support.(Though I always take her on dragon hunts. Vivienne, Cass, Bull, and KE Quizzy =dragon slaughter.) That and my most recent playthrough was my Solas-romance, and I don't need 3+ mages in my party that often. When I did run around with an all mage party, they wouldn't talk to each other.

 

I carefully pick and choose how my Inquisitors deal with her, and I headcanon that they have a mutual respect for each other even if their ideas don't match.

[MisterJB]

You're quite mistaken. I disagree with 99% of the things Vivienne says. But I consider myself quite the utilitarian. I favor decisions that benefit all, and not a single group. Vivienne and people of her ilk are as anti-utilitarian as it get's. Their decisions are not based on the benefit of the people, but decisions that further their personal wants or decisions that reflect their fears and superstitions. See .

 

"What I believe brings about the greatest benefit to the highest number of people is what brings about the greatest benefits to the highest number of people. Anyone who disagrees is either greedy or paranoid."

 

I say "the greatest benefit to the highest number of people" because decisions that benefit all are fundamentally impossible. What if I told that I believe the greatest benefit to the highest number of people is the pre-bellum Circle and that Leliana's decisions are based entirely on emotional reasons that have no place in the real world?
 

 

See her ending were Leliana is Divine. rather then support the college in order to help secure stability to this new order of mages, or hell, create a order of knight enchanters to replace the templars, she instead creates a new circle with no need or reason and risks more war with mages, as the ending states both groups barelly tolerate each other. Her move goes completely against everything she preached during the main game.

Evidently, Vivienne and like minded mages found that the College did not benefit them and decided to do their own thing.

Evidently they felt there was need and reasons.

I thought you wanted to benefit all. Are they not part of the all?

 

Are you going to impose what you believe is the best solution on everyone regardless of their opinion? You sound like a Templar.

 

 

[BioWareMod02]

Hi everyone. Please keep it civil in here. Thank you.

[Cantina]

Who is Dr. Seuss?

 

I might read something longer then a paragraph, but I dont feel like reading all through a wall of text of someone saying how they dislike Vivienne. It was a light joke, but oh well.

 

That is the point of a debate. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with what a debate is. A debate cannot be one side otherwise the debate does not exist.

 

I am aware that people may not agree with my view and that is fine. I respect that. But too come off and say you refused to read my opinion simply because its too long for you, shows a lack of respect in all aspects.

 

You don't want to read it? That's fine. Move on. There is no need to get all huffy because I did not clarify with you first as to how long my opinion should be.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Who is Dr. Seuss?

The single most shocking thing that anyone has said on this thread.

[sandalisthemaker]

Hi everyone. Please keep it civil in here. Thank you.

 

"My dear Mod, whatever is the issue?  We are having a perfectly civil conversation."

[Boost32]

That is the point of a debate. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with what a debate is. A debate cannot be one side otherwise the debate does not exist.

 

I am aware that people may not agree with my view and that is fine. I respect that. But too come off and say you refused to read my opinion simply because its too long for you, shows a lack of respect in all aspects.

 

You don't want to read it? That's fine. Move on. There is no need to get all huffy because I did not clarify with you first as to how long my opinion should be.

Common I said it was a joke, sorry if I offended you.

[Jaison1986]

"What I believe brings about the greatest benefit to the highest number of people is what brings about the greatest benefits to the highest number of people. Anyone who disagrees is either greedy or paranoid."

 

I say "the greatest benefit to the highest number of people" because decisions that benefit all are fundamentally impossible. What if I told that I believe the greatest benefit to the highest number of people is the pre-bellum Circle and that Leliana's decisions are based entirely on emotional reasons that have no place in the real world?
 

 

Evidently, Vivienne and like minded mages found that the College did not benefit them and decided to do their own thing.

Evidently they felt there was need and reasons.

I thought you wanted to benefit all. Are they not part of the all?

 

Are you going to impose what you believe is the best solution on everyone regardless of their opinion? You sound like a Templar.

 

We can only know that once we give a chance to the mages to prove themselve as capable of watching over themselves or not. After all, we have clear evidence that the previous system did not benifit all. The mages gained very little from it. Untill further proof, nothing has proven me or Leliana wrong. The mundanes keep living their lives as usual and the mages are left alone. To me, it sounds mutually beneficial.

 

And if they did not like how the college is, there are better ways to come across with their discontent then creating an entirely new organization, that risks the peace no less. The college could be reasoned with, they are not a military order like the templars.

 

And if I impose my believes, it would come with people personal freedoms in mind. If they do not like that I allow more freedom for others, maybe they are the problem. What kind of **** up world is this were liberty is seen as wrong? A templar care very little about anyone's freedom.

[sandalisthemaker]

 

What kind of **** up world is this were liberty is seen as wrong? A templar care very little about anyone's freedom.

 

The world of Thedas of course.

 

And that's what makes it interesting.

 

The people whose liberty is in question are capable of being possessed and going on rampages. The fact that we don't see it very often in game doesn't mean it should be completely ignored. 

[Akkos]

Vivienne believes Andraste did exist, but she doesn't express any appreciation for the Chantry and it's doctrines....

 

I think she is most concerned of changing people's view of how they see magic in general which is why she is always my divine.

 

I don't really care if people see her as tyrant, ruthless, mean or whatever..  She is not even using blood magic. Solas killed a lot of people with magic.. Dorian killed a lot of people as well using blood magic/necromancy, Anders killed 3 grey warden companions for no reason before he escaped his ordeal.... Morrigan killed an ancient elf as well(in my playthrough) for no reason.   What's the deal with her being told to kill just one man who was going to die by himself anyway..

[Cantina]

A tired and inaccurate analogy. A swordsman cannot kill people in order to summon demons. A sword cannot be used to control people's minds. A sword cannot turn you into a mass-murdering monster (barring certain magic swords) that slaughters whole villages.

 

A sword is a tool just as magic is a tool. It does not matter who wields it mage or not. It depends on what the person chooses to do with what they wield.

 

A Mage could burn down a village. A Swordsman or any one without magic can do the same. A Mage can make a deal with a demon as can any non-mage.

 

Just because a Mage has the power do such terrible things does not mean all mages do. Just as a swordsman. A swordsman has the strength and skill to do terrible things but not all do.

 

If Mages were as bad as Vivienne makes them out to be, Thedas would be over run with demons. Just because one mage summons a demon and causes chaos does not mean all mages are bad.

 

If a man with a sword creates havoc you don't see them all locked away in some Tower on the off chance chaos like that wont happen again.

 

While a mage can create chaos a man with a sword can do just as much. The difference is the swordsman route will take longer.

 

One is not more dangerous then other. They can be just as dangerous.

[Steelcan]

A sword is a tool just as magic is a tool. It does not matter who wields it mage or not. It depends on what the person chooses to do with what they wield.

 

A Mage could burn down a village. A Swordsman or any one without magic can do the same. A Mage can make a deal with a demon as can any non-mage.

 

Just because a Mage has the power do such terrible things does not mean all mages do. Just as a swordsman. A swordsman has the strength and skill to do terrible things but not all do.

 

If Mages were as bad as Vivienne makes them out to be, Thedas would be over run with demons. Just because one mage summons a demon and causes chaos does not mean all mages are bad.

 

If a man with a sword creates havoc you don't see them all locked away in some Tower on the off chance chaos like that wont happen again.

 

While a mage can create chaos a man with a sword can do just as much. The difference is the swordsman route will take longer.

 

One is not more dangerous then other. They can be just as dangerous.

Magic is not just a tool to be used and manipulated like a sword or axe.  Magic is inextricably linked to demonic possession.  Its not a matter of "if" a mage is tempted, its a matter of "when" a mage will be tempted.  And every culture recognizes this reality in Thedas.  In Andrastian nations, weak mages are killed by templars (or other mages in Tevinter) or made tranquil, in Dalish clans weak mages or thsoe too numerous are kicked out/killed, the Avvar slit the throats of weak mages while they sleep.

 

The analogy to mundane weapons is entirely inaccurate. A man with a sword or a mundane tyrant can be cruel and horrific, but they are still constrained by their own lack of magical abilities.  The worst a mundane ruler can do is kill people and weaken the veil.  The worst mage rulers, ie the Evanuris and the Magisters of Old Tevinter, would scoff at such child's play.

[sandalisthemaker]

A sword is a tool just as magic is a tool. It does not matter who wields it mage or not. It depends on what the person chooses to do with what they wield.

 

A Mage could burn down a village. A Swordsman or any one without magic can do the same. A Mage can make a deal with a demon as can any non-mage.

 

Just because a Mage has the power do such terrible things does not mean all mages do. Just as a swordsman. A swordsman has the strength and skill to do terrible things but not all do.

 

If Mages were as bad as Vivienne makes them out to be, Thedas would be over run with demons. Just because one mage summons a demon and causes chaos does not mean all mages are bad.

 

If a man with a sword creates havoc you don't see them all locked away in some Tower on the off chance chaos like that wont happen again.

 

While a mage can create chaos a man with a sword can do just as much. The difference is the swordsman route will take longer.

 

One is not more dangerous then other. They can be just as dangerous.

 

It's easy to think of it as no big deal and sweep it under the rug, but imagine IRL if a certain group of people were able to literally become freakish terrifyingly hideous monsters with superhuman strength and roam the countryside killing and destroying everything in their path.  Destroying whole villages.

 

You cannot blame people for wanting to contain them.  

[Cantina]

It's easy to think of it as no big deal and sweep it under the rug, but imagine IRL if a certain group of people were able to literally become freakish terrifyingly hideous monsters and roam the countryside killing and destroying everything in their path. 

 

Well The Red Templars became freakishly horrible monsters. And they were not mages.

[Steelcan]

Well The Red Templars became freakishly horrible monsters. And they were not mages.

and they were undeniably the outliers of the Order.  The regular templars, ie the rank and file not in on the scheme, were either misled in some cases about the dangers of red lyrium or they were killed off

[SgtSteel91]

It's easy to think of it as no big deal and sweep it under the rug, but imagine IRL if a certain group of people were able to literally become freakish terrifyingly hideous monsters and roam the countryside killing and destroying everything in their path. 

 

Or how about a person with schizophrenia? Just because they can have a bad episode and shoot up a school we should lock up every person with a mental illness in an asylum and forget they exist? Cause that's what the Circles are. Are you supporting forced institutionalization? Because stories are not made in a vacuum. And the Circles and support for it line up too much with arguments for dealing with people with mental illness that take away their rights and forces them into confinement 'for their own good'.

[sandalisthemaker]

Well The Red Templars became freakishly horrible monsters. And they were not mages.

 

Very true. But magic is still to blame in that case. 

 

Corypheus (a mage) introduced the stuff to the Order.

[ThoughtlessRanter]

Meh, I thought she was okay just kind of there to have an opposing view from your other mage companion.

[sandalisthemaker]

Or how about a person with schizophrenia? Just because they can have a bad episode and shoot up a school we should lock up every person with a mental illness in an asylum and forget they exist? Cause that's what the Circles are. Are you supporting forced institutionalization? Because stories are not made in a vacuum. And the Circles and support for it line up too much with arguments for dealing with people with mental illness.

 

 

I am supporting an interesting tale with issues that are not always clear cut.

 

So yes. I support the Circle system because it allows for interesting issues and themes to contemplate. 

[Jaison1986]

The world of Thedas of course.

 

And that's what makes it interesting.

 

The people whose liberty is in question are capable of being possessed and going on rampages. The fact that we don't see it very often in game doesn't mean it should be completely ignored. 

 

And I never said it should. The mage freedom won't be all sunshine and rainbows for them. This freedom will likely come with responsabilities. It's up to mages now to deal with their criminals and abominations now that templars are gone.

[Steelcan]

Or how about a person with schizophrenia? Just because they can have a bad episode and shoot up a school we should lock up every person with a mental illness in an asylum and forget they exist? Cause that's what the Circles are. Are you supporting forced institutionalization? Because stories are not made in a vacuum. And the Circles and support for it line up too much with arguments for dealing with people with mental illness that take away their rights and forces them into confinement 'for their own good'.

bad analogy is bad

[sandalisthemaker]

And I never said it should. The mage freedom won't be all sunshine and rainbows for them. This freedom will likely come with responsabilities. It's up to mages now to deal with their criminals and abominations now that templars are gone.

 

I certainly hope not.  How boring would that be?

 

That's the impression I get from unhardened!Divine!Leliana's reign.

 

It's *SO* sunshine and rainbows that it almost makes me want to gag a bit.  It seems really uninteresting. 

[MisterJB]

We can only know that once we give a chance to the mages to prove themselve as capable of watching over themselves or not.

If the last two thousand years of human history are not enough, you'd think the Hinterlands would be.

Exactly how large does the pile of corpses have to be before we finally admit they can't watch themselves?

Do we need a Super-Blight?

 

After all, we have clear evidence that the previous system did not benifit all.

 

You can't benefit every single individual, it's literally impossible.

 

The mages gained very little from it

Free food, education, clothing, luxurious accomodations, protection, etc.

Really, they had higher standards of living than most of Thedas. They gained a LOT from it.

 

The mundanes keep living their lives as usual and the mages are left alone. To me, it sounds mutually beneficial.

 

And if they did not like how the college is, there are better ways to come across with their discontent then creating an entirely new organization, that risks the peace no less. The college could be reasoned with, they are not a military order like the templars.

 

First, militaries can be reasoned with. it's why not every army is a group of marauders.

 

Second, if militaries couldn't be reasoned with, given that the mages are as powerful as an army, they couldn't be reasoned with either.

 

Third, given that we are given no information about the day to day functioning of this College, you have no basis to claim that "mundanes keep living their lives"

 

Fourth, this College has a timespan of two years at most. Such a short time period is not enough to properly evaluate its efficiency.

 

Fifth, what if the only way Vivienne and her like minded mages can be benefitted is the course of action they took. Who are you tell them they are wrong?

 

And if I impose my believes, it would come with people personal freedoms in mind. If they do not like that I allow more freedom for others, maybe they are the problem. What kind of **** up world is this were liberty is seen as wrong?

 

So, now you are outright stating that it's ok for you to force your viewpoint on everyone else because you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

That is tyranny.

 

A templar care very little about anyone's freedom.

Their Order was formed as a response to mages enslaving anyone who did not have magic for over a thousand years.

They are very much trying to protect people's freedoms.

 

[Steelcan]

And I never said it should. The mage freedom won't be all sunshine and rainbows for them. This freedom will likely come with responsabilities. It's up to mages now to deal with their criminals and abominations now that templars are gone.

how long before they rise up over these new fangled taxes they have to pay

[Dabrikishaw]

Huh, another thread unrelated to the Mage-Templar war has become another thread about the Mage-Templar war.

 

I think we need to make a law for it at this point.