Kinda like Leliana, then?
Or Varric?
or Iron Bull?
or Solas?
That's an interesting point. Most of the followers are mixed up in some kind of murky agenda that they keep quiet about. That's what makes them interesting characters. Vivienne is too of course, but she's relatively open about it.
The grand themes of the trilogy might be described as order/chaos, security/liberty, and duty/personal ambition. Vivienne's story touches on all of these (though of course so do all the others').
None of those are players of the Orlesian Game except for Leliana, who came to dislike it. Vivienne revels in it.
IB is a professional liar and manipluator.
Varric is a professional liar.
Leliana is whatever the PC wants her to be.
Solas enjoys court intrigue, he misses it. He says so after the Winter Palace. Which means he loves playing the game too.
Blackwall lies throughout the game too.
Face it, you're surrounded by liars and manipulators. Only Dorian, Cole, Sera, Cullen, Cass, and Josie are honest.
IB is a professional liar and manipluator.
Varric is a professional liar.
Leliana is whatever the PC wants her to be.
Solas enjoys court intrigue, he misses it. He says so after the Winter Palace. Which means he loves playing the game too.
Blackwall lies throughout the game too.
Face it, you're surrounded by liars and manipulators. Only Dorian, Cole, Sera, Cullen, Cass, and Josie are honest.
Yeah, this argument is the perfect counterpoint that demonstrates that Xil's issue with Vivienne is not actually the fact that she's a liar and manipulator, but because she's a conservative Pro-Circle mage.
Solas manipulates and lies the entire game, but he's pro-Rebellion and an elf so he gets a free pass against the critique that Vivienne gets. Same for Leliana because she's also pro-Rebellion and the Warden's potentially wifey.
IB is a professional liar and manipluator.
Varric is a professional liar.
Leliana is whatever the PC wants her to be.
Solas enjoys court intrigue, he misses it. He says so after the Winter Palace. Which means he loves playing the game too.
Blackwall lies throughout the game too.
Face it, you're surrounded by liars and manipulators. Only Dorian, Cole, Sera, Cullen, Cass, and Josie are honest.
Blackwall and Iron Bull stop lying, I'm angry at Solas, Varric isn't professional, and Leliana left the Game behind.
Yeah, this argument is the perfect counterpoint that demonstrates that Xil's issue with Vivienne is not actually the fact that she's a liar and manipulator, but because she's a conservative Pro-Circle mage.
Solas manipulates and lies the entire game, but he's pro-Rebellion and an elf so he gets a free pass against the critique that Vivienne gets. Same for Leliana because she's also pro-Rebellion and the Warden's potentially wifey.
I had thought better of you than to put words in my mouth. My problem with Vivienne is that she's both. Both traits combine to form something worse than the whole. And I am, in fact, quite angry at Solas, but there's no real need to add any critique since I haven't met anyone who's in favor of his master plan.
Blackwall and Iron Bull stop lying, I'm angry at Solas, Varric isn't professional, and Leliana left the Game behind.
Blackwall stops near the end of the game. IB, that depends and even then he brags about how good he is at lying so you're only assuming he isn't anymore. It still doesn't take away the fact that lying was his job throughout the game. Varric is a self admitted liar. He says so in DA2 and DAI. How many games does he have to admit to being a liar before you believe him? Leliana is whatever you mold her into because she lacks personality. If you make her Divine, whether saint or hardened, she's playing the game pretty much every day.
You don't have an issue with liars, just liars named Vivienne.
Blackwall stops near the end of the game. IB, that depends and even then he brags about how good he is at lying so you're only assuming he isn't anymore. It still doesn't take away the fact that lying was his job throughout the game. Varric is a self admitted liar. He says so in DA2 and DAI. How many games does he have to admit to being a liar before you believe him? Leliana is whatever you mold her into because she lacks personality. If you make her Divine, whether saint or hardened, she's playing the game pretty much every day.
You don't have an issue with liars, just liars named Vivienne.
Why yes, in Varric's and Leliana's cases, I'm rather better inclined to those who aren't trying to tear down everything I've built. As I said, the issue with Vivienne is that she's both.
Vivienne the Slayer of all things Dragon! Got to spam that spirit blade
Hilariously enough Vivienne doesn't even lie that much in comparison to most of the cast. I mean she lies but she's she's not that subtle. She's really not. She's pretty blunt (which is kind of disappointingly but not really). Because she's tell you sweet sweet lies and then pull the rug from under you if she was a real lying manipulative ***** the way people act like she was.
None of those are players of the Orlesian Game except for Leliana, who came to dislike it. Vivienne revels in it.
Actually, you're complaint was "Vivienne is a professional liar and manipulator". Of which I gave four other examples within the Inquisitor's inner circle (heck Iron Bull's Qunari nickname Hissrad even means "Liar")
An Orlesian bard
a Ben-Hassrath spy
a guy who runs his own information brokerage for fun & profit
The freaking DREAD WOLF!
But they get a pass because..?
Actually, you're complaint was "Vivienne is a professional liar and manipulator". Of which I gave four other examples within the Inquisitor's inner circle (heck Iron Bull's Qunari nickname Hissrad even means "Liar") But they get a pass because..?
That was specifically the reason that I felt like I couldn't trust most of what she said that wasn't clearly in line with her self-interest, not the primary reason that I hate her.
That was specifically the reason that I felt like I couldn't trust most of what she said that wasn't clearly in line with her self-interest, not the primary reason that I hate her.
And why can you trust what Iron Bull, or Leliana say? They are no more or less trustworthy. I suspect it's simply because you like what they tell you.
And we learned from Solas just what that kind of blind (dis)trust can lead.
And why can you trust what Iron Bull, or Leliana say? They are no more or less trustworthy. I suspect it's simply because you like what they tell you.
I don't, in fact, trust Iron Bull that much. As for Leliana, she doesn't have any weird personality contradictions like Vivienne does, where some of what she says/does clashes with what she claims at another time.
While Vivienne has an agenda, this is largely true for most of the characters in the game. If you started killing people for that, you wouldn't have an inquisition to begin with.
Vivienne would never betray you, and funnily enough, even when you fall out of favor politically if she respects you, she doesn't betray you. With how some people portray her character, she should have broken off her relationship with you.
As for her actions during being divine. Well it's the cost of doing business. No one realistically keeps their hands clean in politics. Killing people to further an agenda is literally what every power does in thedas. What did you do as the inquisitor? Didn't you kill a lot of people to further your own agenda? Don't you have your own opinions on what should be done about the mages?
I always find it funny when people portray a plan of action they don't agree with as an evil agenda, but when they do the exact same thing it's suddenly moral and just.
Vivienne and Wynne two of the most misunderstood witches in the Dragon Age series. Viv and I may never be besties, but I respect the heck out of that woman. She's risen on the strength of her intelligence and will and she knows it. People often call a woman with that kind of strength of will, outspokenness and perseverance a b***h, but women like her move the world, even as they rise in it.
A sword is a tool just as magic is a tool. It does not matter who wields it mage or not. It depends on what the person chooses to do with what they wield.
A single swordsman can only wreak so much havoc before they are stopped. No village was ever destroyed by a single bandit. I have seen whole communities wiped out by a single mage and/or abomination, however.
A swordsman can also not send their minds in the Fade, or bring spirits out of it. Mages can.
Vivienne and Wynne two of the most misunderstood witches in the Dragon Age series. Viv and I may never be besties, but I respect the heck out of that woman. She's risen on the strength of her intelligence and will and she knows it. People often call a woman with that kind of strength of will, outspokenness and perseverance a b***h, but women like her move the world, even as they rise in it.
I have not, and will never, use the word for Leliana, Wynne, Morrigan, or any number of other strong, outspoken and persevering women in this or any other franchise. I use it for Vivienne because she's evil.
I have not, and will never, use the word for Leliana, Wynne, Morrigan, or any number of other strong, outspoken and persevering women in this or any other franchise. I use it for Vivienne because she's evil.
No, she isn't.
She's lawful evil for sure. This can be observed if she is the Divine; a tyrant.
Please, show us why she is a tyrant.
I can see why the people who write her off as this moustache twirling villain see her as evil, but, obviously, I disagree. I see her as Lawful Neutral. Simply putting your own good first doesn't make you evil. Particularly since her bark is much worse than her bite (see the Haven attack and her attitude towards rescuing the townsfolk).
I don't, in fact, trust Iron Bull that much. As for Leliana, she doesn't have any weird personality contradictions like Vivienne does, where some of what she says/does clashes with what she claims at another time.
Leliana, especially in DAI, is the very definition of personality contradictions (and this is coming from someone who does, in fact, like Leliana)
I have not, and will never, use the word for Leliana, Wynne, Morrigan, or any number of other strong, outspoken and persevering women in this or any other franchise. I use it for Vivienne because she's evil.
*points at the ancient darkspawn magister we spend the entire game fighting*
Please, show us why she is a tyrant.
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