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In hindsight, Vivienne is awesome


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#426
Dean_the_Young

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My point is that this isn't a strongman social reform with no backup; we've heard no theological defense of the dissonance of the Canticle of Shartan, and two confirmations of it just being political racism from two Chantry mothers.

 

Again, you're dodging the question- do try and address it. What would prevent her successor from undoing her reforms?

 

There doesn't need to be a theological defense- though there certainly is, even if the current hold up is political- because the issue is on the durability of the change to established theological doctrine if changed for personal preference. Racist politics or not, the Canticle was not doctrine- and now Leliana is claiming that it is. Likewise, Chantry tradition was that the Divine was chaste and the priestesshood unmarried- until Leliana says it's all cool, because she wants it.

 

Leliana's reforms are a strongman social reform so long as they're changes dictated by her prefences on the basis of her being the prefrences of the authority figure with the knives in the night. What's preventing her successor from changing things back with their knives in the knight if they don't want that?



#427
Xilizhra

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Again, you're dodging the question- do try and address it. What would prevent her successor from undoing her reforms?

 

There doesn't need to be a theological defense- though there certainly is, even if the current hold up is political- because the issue is on the durability of the change to established theological doctrine if changed for personal preference. Racist politics or not, the Canticle was not doctrine- and now Leliana is claiming that it is. Likewise, Chantry tradition was that the Divine was chaste and the priestesshood unmarried- until Leliana says it's all cool, because she wants it.

 

Leliana's reforms are a strongman social reform so long as they're changes dictated by her prefences on the basis of her being the prefrences of the authority figure with the knives in the night. What's preventing her successor from changing things back with their knives in the knight if they don't want that?

Why would Leliana be presenting it as a change based on personal preference at all? That would be lunacy. Reforms can't be made in organizations like this without mass dissent unless they're backed up by the organization's internal logic in some way, and all of Leliana's are.



#428
SgtSteel91

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Everyone's talking about Murder Pope/Steeled Leliana, but what about Softened/Inspired Leliana? In that case she's taking the diplomatic approach and using words to change hearts and minds before knives. I know in Tespasser Mother Gisele will say Leliana is adept at winning allies with her intellect and faith as Inspired Pope.



#429
Bleachrude

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Why would Leliana be presenting it as a change based on personal preference at all? That would be lunacy. Reforms can't be made in organizations like this without mass dissent unless they're backed up by the organization's internal logic in some way, and all of Leliana's are.

That's blatantly false though.

 

The Leliana that isn't in a relationship with a warden doesn't open up the clergy to a member of the clergy that is in a relationship so yes, she _IS_ instituting things on a personal whim.

 

I think too many people want Thedas to be a modern day world (and I suspect a large part of Bioware is partial to this thinking - really other than technology level, post Trespasser Thedas has more im common with modern day WESTERN nations than with real life medieval Europe) .

 

I STILL find it hard to believe that for a 1000 years that where people grew up with a single female human non-mage can easily transition to a married male nonhuman mage as the leader of the clergy....Sure, everyone on BSN is "yeah, that's great" but quite frankly, it REALLY, REALLY diminshes the internal logic of the setting...the people of Thedas aren't real....



#430
Xilizhra

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That's blatantly false though.

 

The Leliana that isn't in a relationship with a warden doesn't open up the clergy to a member of the clergy that is in a relationship so yes, she _IS_ instituting things on a personal whim.

Just because she doesn't make the change right away doesn't mean that it's theologically unjustified.

 

 

I think too many people want Thedas to be a modern day world (and I suspect a large part of Bioware is partial to this thinking - really other than technology level, post Trespasser Thedas has more im common with modern day WESTERN nations than with real life medieval Europe) .

 

I STILL find it hard to believe that for a 1000 years that where people grew up with a single female human non-mage can easily transition to a married male nonhuman mage as the leader of the clergy....Sure, everyone on BSN is "yeah, that's great" but quite frankly, it REALLY, REALLY diminshes the internal logic of the setting...the people of Thedas aren't real....

Thedas is neither modern nor medieval, it's fantasy. There's nothing wrong with how its culture is written either way. In any case, I seriously doubt there'll be that many married male mage candidates for the priesthood right away; obviously social changes of this nature won't happen overnight, but there'll be time to ease things along.



#431
Wulfram

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Again, you're dodging the question- do try and address it. What would prevent her successor from undoing her reforms?

 

There doesn't need to be a theological defense- and the theology is irrelevant- because the issue is on the durability of the change to established theological doctrine if changed for personal preference. Racist politics or not, the Canticle was not doctrine- and now Leliana is claiming that it is. Likewise, Chantry tradition was that the Divine was chaste and the priestesshood unmarried- until Leliana says it's all cool, because she wants it.

 

Leliana's reforms are a strongman social reform so long as they're changes dictated by her prefences on the basis of her being the prefrences of the authority figure with the knives in the night. What's preventing her successor from changing things back with theirknives in the knight if they don't want that?

 

Because Leliana will be moulding the Chantry in her own image.  Leliana's successor will be chosen by a college of clerics that she shaped.  They'll have to deal with male priests that don't want to be defrocked - as well as elves, though they're likely to be less politically important - and married priests that don't want to be celibate.

 

Leliana had a chance for radical change only because of Corypheus and the destruction of the Conclave.  Her successor hopefully won't enjoy that advantage.  And if Leliana lasts for a good while, then undoing her changes will be radical change.

 

Also, since we're apparently talking hardened Leliana, tough to succeed if you've been visited by her knives in the night.


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#432
Bleachrude

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Just because she doesn't make the change right away doesn't mean that it's theologically unjustified.

 

 

Thedas is neither modern nor medieval, it's fantasy. There's nothing wrong with how its culture is written either way. In any case, I seriously doubt there'll be that many married male mage candidates for the priesthood right away; obviously social changes of this nature won't happen overnight, but there'll be time to ease things along.

 

Which actually is my point. Thedas doesn't really have anything I would call an identity if Leliana can institute such changes since as Dean pointed out, her changes are based on personal feelings. 

 

As an aside, I disagree with the idea that Thedas wasn't originally medieval. DA:Origins clearly was a medieval world and  one that I think was more interesting...The charge that DA has become disneyified is one I actually think has some merit.

 

re: Murderknife Leliana

Getting back to the topic, this is another example of why people think Leliana is a mary sue. Vivenne is a tyrant yet looking at her epilogue, there's no indication that she actually uses force. Leliana LITERALLY kills dissenter but Cassandra goes along with it. How does Mother Giselle support this? 

 

That's another issue I have with this...Leliana has so much power that she can do this on her own but where is she getting the support from? Take the issue of marriage in the clergy. The game never said why this was accepted doctrine but it didn't need to since the whole Maferath thing was a "well ok that's why they don't allow non-celibate" clergy Leliana changes this but the game doesn't put forth any reason other than "leliana wants it, so she changes it".


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#433
Wulfram

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I would argue that the celibate clergy and the one-gender priesthood never really made a great deal of sense for Thedas anyway.  They are gratuitous medieval european traits that don't really fit because the wider context is different.

 

Thedas is not sexist against men, and Andraste had male disciples, so there's not much reason for there to be no male priests.

People in Thedas are basically relaxed about sex, and the Chantry takes no particular view of it as being sinful, so its odd for them to impose celibacy on its priests.


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#434
SgtSteel91

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I would argue that the celibate clergy and the one-gender priesthood never really made a great deal of sense for Thedas anyway.  They are gratuitous medieval european traits that don't really fit because the wider context is different.

 

Thedas is not sexist against men, and Andraste had male disciples, so there's not much reason for there to be no male priests.

People in Thedas are basically relaxed about sex, and the Chantry takes no particular view of it as being sinful, so its odd for them to impose celibacy on its priests.

 

I think the argument is that Andraste's mortal husband got jealous of Andraste loving the Maker and betrayed her, but I guess someone like Leliana could argue, "then find a better husband/lover who's open-minded."



#435
Bleachrude

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I would argue that the celibate clergy and the one-gender priesthood never really made a great deal of sense for Thedas anyway.  They are gratuitous medieval european traits that don't really fit because the wider context is different.

 

Thedas is not sexist against men, and Andraste had male disciples, so there's not much reason for there to be no male priests.

People in Thedas are basically relaxed about sex, and the Chantry takes no particular view of it as being sinful, so its odd for them to impose celibacy on its priests.

 

Thedas though does have sexist tendecies (it's never explained why though as you said) - prior to Aveline, it's implied that both Orlais and Ferelden didn't have ACKNOWLEDGED female warriors/knights (I'm sure there were female fighters but my impression from the Aveline tale is that it was her that made it culturally acceptable) and then we have the Avvar/Chasind/Hakkon who apparently only have male shamans and Rivain where there are only wise women. That said, it's never explained WHY Drakon went along with this rule...remember, it was Drakon who setup the Chantry as the official religion of nascent Orlais and followed that up by having a female Divine.

 

Now the celivacy thing actually makes sense in-game/in world due to Maferath. THAT...that actually I can see being a doctrine that has an argument for it and one that I actually think makes sense in-world. As an aside, what does Andraste having married followers have to do with the clergy being celibate? NO religion has that requirement for its followers including Christianity.

 

re: Thedas

If Bioware actually expects us to care about the world, it should at least follow internal logic...if Thedas basically changes on a whim, then it becomes hard to explain why anything "works" in the setting or why we should care about anything. Take the Game for example. Most fans hate the Game and Bioware itself doesn't present it as anything other than to be mocked yet it is never explained why it persists and how it has helped Orlais in any form...If Drakon himself, the guy who apparently is the greatest non-mage person of note after Andraste herself couldn't stop the Game, how has it not torn Orlais apparent? Just because???


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#436
Tielis

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I question the notion that gradualism makes reforms more likely to stick.  If you just nibble at a problem and don't address the major underlying problems, then the odds are that things will simply drift back to the status quo.

 

Case in point, women's rights in the U.S.



#437
Lumix19

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Her treatment of those who disagree with her absolutely matters for depicting her as a tyrant, if we use any colloqualism of tyrant meaning 'one who cruelly oppresses dissent and rivals' rather than 'a strong politician I disagree with.' In one, you risk marginalization until you gather enough strength in institutions to act. In the other, you risk your life. Considering that the only populations the Divine can be a tyrant over are (a) the mages of a Circle the Chantry controls, or ( B) the beuracracy, 'tyrant' is already suspect.

I mean to say it didn't. I meant that her motivation could be 1.) less than benevolent and plays into her hands, we can't predict the future after all - is she raising them up only to crush them later? - and 2.) that a single action is not a wider indicator of her willingness to disregard the opinions of others, this single action does not encompass her entire reign. And I disagree with your view of what makes a tyrant, "cruelly oppressing dissent and rivals" does not have to encompass death, in fact would it not be more fitting to crush your opponents and have them recant? Furthermore can a ruler be branded a tyrant regardless of intention? I've pointed this out before but I do feel that what one hopes to accomplish is important when considering them a ruler. If it is personal power then I'm swayed towards calling them a tyrant, if it's selfless goals then I can forgive moral lapses - like assassination - because it's for the greater good. The overall result of one's reign, I feel, is dictated by this attitude, if you're selfless you aren't going to allow justice to fall to the wayside by simply to keep your own power, if you aren't, you can do some pretty unspeakable things in the name of keeping power.

You underestimate the power of the Divine, was it not the Templar Order, at Beatrix III's behest, who overthrew Perrin Threnhold? Was an Exalted March not declared against the Dales? Vivienne has all the power of the Templar Order and the reformed Circle at her command. Not to mention she can set interpretations on the Chant, for good or ill.

 


 


We certainly can subscribe motivations to Vivienne- we have her stated beliefs, as validated by her policies when empowered, Cole's inner-self reveal-a-tron, and the meta-tool of the approval system. And we know, from all of those, that Vivienne a political conservative (in the sense of 'order, then reform) who opposes the Mage Rebellion movement on grounds both practical (how they go about it) and sentimental (her thoughts at loyalist deaths, the Tranquil, and the fate of innocent commoners not playing in the Game), even if she believes sentimentalism is a flaw (Cole's dialogues).

 

What we can't do is assign motivations that are not supported in-game- and if Cassandra's accusation is completely unsupported (as it is) and selective (as her absence of criticizing Leliana's murders of political opponents), it certainly undermines the legitimacy of what could otherwise be called political differences.

 

And that belief about sentimentalism, even if it does lapse at times, makes her seem rather Machiavellian, perhaps tyrannical - "First we execute those who will not submit, then we deal with the rest". Blackwall notes that '"Madame" Vivienne only allied with the Inquisition because she knows it will bring her power. The most poisonous snakes are often the most beautiful.' Solas notes that she "so often come[s] out on top" but instead of helping her fellow mages she has "done nothing, save consolidate [her] own power". We know that she loves "power, wealth, notoriety", but can that attitude be reconciled with her position as Divine? Are those the qualities one would desire from a powerful religious figure? Solas notes that she would "hurt what she does not understand", that she is prefers to see a traitor helping the rebels from within so she "need never concern [her]self with the possibility that [her] Circle was wrong". Am I mean to ignore the perspectives of the other companions?

Perhaps Cassandra has a different view of what makes a tyrant than you do. 

 

 



You providing reasons which are not in the game is why they are headcanon. They exist only in your head, not canon- it doesn't matter how reasonable they are, if you claim them as the basis for further conclusions.

 

 

The issue isn't whether discrediting it is a sensible idea- the issue is that your argument that Vivienne is actively trying to sabotage it utterly ubsubstantiated. There are lots of things that are good ideas for tyrants that Vivienne doesn't do.

 

Vivienne never claims it's a good idea- nor does she need to. She doesn't even need to treat it as an equal. Yet you're treating these things as some sort of proof that she's forcing it to fail- in order to justify the conclusion that she's a tyrant, which is why you think she's sabotaging the College.

 

This is circular reasoning dependent on headcanon to start and repeat. Vivienne is a tyrant, in part because she's sabotaging the College. She's sabotaging the College because she's a tyrant. Repeat cycle.

 

My attitude that she was a tyrant came before the Trespasser epilogues believe you me. I believe she is a tyrant not because she could be sabotaging the College, but because I trust companions like Solas, Blackwall and Cassandra, and even to a certain extent Sera, to make accurate judges of her character. Because whilst she has shown genuine care for order and people in general, we have repeatedly been told that she finds sentimentality a weakness, one that she only occasionally indulges in, and that power is something she greatly desires.

 

 



 

Indeed you are. A pursuit of sycophancy has never been one of Vivienne's points, and Vivienne reserving greater power doesn't reduce everyone else to only having privileges.

 

 

Being ruled by emotion is why she can be called impulsive, even when she's calculating. It's not a disservice.

 

 

Not much- but then, I don't trust Sera's sense of morals or ethics much. Too much of a short-term thinker, too little sense of responsibility, and a reflexive classest.

No but, to me, Vivienne holding all true power, does reduce others to only having privileges. She doesn't hold greater power, as if it is shared amongst those beneath her, but true power, as if the powers of others is nothing but pretense. What other interpretation is there?

I phrased that poorly then. I think she is directed by emotion-related goals, or sentiment, but that doesn't mean she doesn't recognise threats. It's noteworthy that Vivienne's appointment in the base game resulted in three revolts that had to put down violently, whilst Leliana's reforms inspire only small sects.



#438
Bleachrude

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The issue with that statement ("all the true power") Lumix19 is it is very, VERY vague. In what scenario do the other divines NOT hold all the other power. Even in the softened Leliana case, she institutes changes that causes people to want to kill her and doesn't respond yet these self-same people don't have enough power to block her changes? Same goes for Cassandra.

 

If you look at all the other divine epilogues, there's never an indication that any of their changes are opposed successfully yet neither are considered tyrants or are implied to hold less than total power. Take the issue of opening up the clergy to all - this actually reduces the power of the existing clergy as you now have a much wider breadth of candiates and thus reducing the power of the existing clerics. Yet Leliana is able to institute this change and yet she isn't considered to hold all the power.

 

Why is it that Vivenne's reign is considered "tyrantical" and she alone of the divines is mentioned as hoarding all the power when another divine pushes through even more extreme changes and another divine has no problem with using her own forces to crush dissent that Vivenne is held up as a "BAD" divine.


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#439
Rekkampum

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Every Orlesian deals with that sort of thing in their struggle to rise in social status. Their rivals will attack in every way possible.

That doesn't mean she was some pariah. And race, really? Now you really are seeing what you want to see.

Thedas may judge you for the shape of your ears but skin color has never been an issue.

 

Because the Duke saying she'd disappear in the dark - an obvious reference to her skin tone - totally has nothing to do with her Rivaini (see what I did there?) heritage.
 


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#440
Xilizhra

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The issue with that statement ("all the true power") Lumix19 is it is very, VERY vague. In what scenario do the other divines NOT hold all the other power. Even in the softened Leliana case, she institutes changes that causes people to want to kill her and doesn't respond yet these self-same people don't have enough power to block her changes? Same goes for Cassandra.

 

If you look at all the other divine epilogues, there's never an indication that any of their changes are opposed successfully yet neither are considered tyrants or are implied to hold less than total power. Take the issue of opening up the clergy to all - this actually reduces the power of the existing clergy as you now have a much wider breadth of candiates and thus reducing the power of the existing clerics. Yet Leliana is able to institute this change and yet she isn't considered to hold all the power.

 

Why is it that Vivenne's reign is considered "tyrantical" and she alone of the divines is mentioned as hoarding all the power when another divine pushes through even more extreme changes and another divine has no problem with using her own forces to crush dissent that Vivenne is held up as a "BAD" divine.

Vivienne's utter callousness and selfishness, perhaps? Even if Cassandra disagrees with Leliana's methods, she still agrees with her results (Cassandra didn't say that Leliana's reforms were bad, just possibly impractical). Certainly, Vivienne seems to have no intention of uplifting the masses in the way that Cassandra and Leliana want to.

 

 

Because the Duke saying she'd disappear in the dark - an obvious reference to her skin tone - totally has nothing to do with her Rivaini (see what I did there?) heritage.

I don't think that was actually racist so much as an extension of his earlier hope of not wanting Bastien to see her. If Vivienne happened to be quite pale, I imagine he'd follow up with "but she'd probably glow in the moonlight" or something.



#441
Bleachrude

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Because the Duke saying she'd disappear in the dark - an obvious reference to her skin tone - totally has nothing to do with her Rivaini (see what I did there?) heritage.
 

 

As weird as it sounds, I don't think it is supposed to be racist but more a dig at her heritage (as contradictory as this sounds).  In Dragon age, there has never been any mention or indication of racism....Speciesism, yeah of course, Nationalism? Hell yeah., but across the breadth of the Dragon age lore, can you point to 5 examples of racism? I'm honestly blanking on this....


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#442
The Baconer

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As weird as it sounds, I don't think it is supposed to be racist but more a dig at her heritage (as contradictory as this sounds).  In Dragon age, there has never been any mention or indication of racism....Speciesism, yeah of course, Nationalism? Hell yeah., but across the breadth of the Dragon age lore, can you point to 5 examples of racism? I'm honestly blanking on this....

 

Absolutely.

 

It's just based on actual race instead of skin color. That one would be a first.



#443
Hazegurl

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Soooo remarking about how a dark skinned person will disappear in the dark has nothing at all to do with her dark skin tone....that's a first. :blink:



#444
Xilizhra

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Soooo remarking about how a dark skinned person will disappear in the dark has nothing at all to do with her dark skin tone....that's a first. :blink:

It has to do with that, but it's not an attack on her for being dark-skinned.



#445
Iakus

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Soooo remarking about how a dark skinned person will disappear in the dark has nothing at all to do with her dark skin tone....that's a first. :blink:

It could also be a crack at finding Vivienne ugly.  You know, "better with the lights off"



#446
introverted_assassin

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Oh for the love of...it was an attack on her skin tone. I cannot believe THAT part is being theorized and postulated and "maybe this". no. it was exactly that. there would be no other reason for him to make a joke like that. none.
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#447
Xilizhra

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Oh for the love of...it was an attack on her skin tone. I cannot believe THAT part is being theorized and postulated and "maybe this". no. it was exactly that. there would be no other reason for him to make a joke like that. none.

The reason we question this is that intra-human racism has literally never appeared in the series before, and if it does exist, it's really odd to reveal it in party banter.



#448
Hazegurl

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It could also be a crack at finding Vivienne ugly.  You know, "better with the lights off"

Except the phrase was "She MUST disappear in the dark"  meaning that when the lights are out she vanishes. 

 

"I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her."

 

A dig at her attractiveness. Calling her ugly.

 

 

"But then, she must disappear in the dark."

 

Another dig at her skin tone.



#449
Hazegurl

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The reason we question this is that intra-human racism has literally never appeared in the series before, and if it does exist, it's really odd to reveal it in party banter.

It may be odd to reveal it in party banter but it was revealed regardless.  I personally think it should have been left out because it's isn't consistent with what we have seen in the past but it was still added.


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#450
ModernAcademic

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You know what? When Vivienne becomes the main topic, everyone immediately thinks about her skin color. I'm not complaining, just making an observation.

 

But do you know what people miss entirely? How feminine she looks even if she's bald.

 

Vivienne has a beautiful voice, knows how to wear makeup (something which can sadly be a source of trouble to dark skinned people because most companies manifacture makeup having white skinned people in mind, even though people from all ethnic groups buy makeup) and exulds charm.

 

 

So to me, she's an example of how women don't need to measure their beauty by the length of their hair. Short hair - and even no hair at all - do not erase your feminility. You are feminine for who you are, how you conduct yourself and your manners. To me, that is a very powerful statement.


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