1041 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

I don't think anyone is using the basis of her skin color to try and prove that she is of an inferior quality to anyone.

[Xilizhra]

You know what? When Vivienne becomes the main topic, everyone immediately thinks about her skin color. I'm not complaining, just making an observation.

 

But do you know what people miss entirely? How feminine she looks even if she's bald.

 

Vivienne has a beautiful voice, knows how to wear makeup (something which can sadly be a source of trouble to dark skinned people because most companies manifacture makeup having white skinned people in mind, even though people from all ethnic groups buy makeup) and exulds charm.

 

 

So to me, she's an example of how women don't need to measure their beauty by the length of their hair. Short hair - and even no hair at all - do not erase your feminility. You are feminine for who you are, how you conduct yourself and your manners. To me, that is a very powerful statement.

For me, femininity and masculinity are both completely arbitrary, and I'm not wholly sure what you mean.

 

Of course, for me, she's also never exuded charm so much as douchechills, but I understand that that's subjective.

[Steelcan]

For me, femininity and masculinity are both completely arbitrary, and I'm not wholly sure what you mean.

In what way are they arbitrary?  Sure some of the really minor stuff such as color associations change on a generation to generation basis, but the more fundamental aspects of concepts of masculinity and femininity have persisted remarkably unchanged for millennia.

[Bleachrude]

I usually don't agree with Xilizhra but in this case,  I do. 

 

Again, throughout the 3 games, the comic books , the world of thedas, the cartoon, other than this one instance, can anyone find a case of discrimination based on skin colour? I originally asked to find 5 examples but I'll even make it easier...Can anyone find ANY examples other than this one of skin colour discrimination.

 

The line doesn't make sense given what we have seen of Thedas...I think it was meant more as a dig at her Rivain roots thanat her skin colour. Similar to how both Dorian and Vivenne joke about being thankful that their not Antivan....

 

re: Vivenne's attractiveness

I actually was impressed with how Vivenne looks in the world as were my circle of family and friends who saw her on my PC screeen...Let's just say as a black man, usually characters who are obviously meant to be black tend to look off in MANY, MANY videogames (try making a black person in Skyrim....). But even bald, myself and my family members said that she was an attractive looking black female.

[Rekkampum]

As weird as it sounds, I don't think it is supposed to be racist but more a dig at her heritage (as contradictory as this sounds).  In Dragon age, there has never been any mention or indication of racism....Speciesism, yeah of course, Nationalism? Hell yeah., but across the breadth of the Dragon age lore, can you point to 5 examples of racism? I'm honestly blanking on this....

 

Well, that's one of the ways that racism - as far as humans are concerned - manifests. It's definitely something I and a lot of those I grew up with here in the Union experienced. At the very least, I think it's xenophobic. I also think that there are plenty of things DA:I introduces into the lore that we've never been exposed to before, so that's honestly a poor defense; an elitist society like that of Orlais hardly seems like it wouldn't have its own flaws underneath. Look at how they treat city elves. I'd postulate that it's a more casual form rather than garden-variety if that was in any means the intent of the writers. But that's a discussion for another time.

 

Back to the OP, Viv isn't my favorite character, but I do like her to an extent. But I think one of things that annoys me in general about how a lot of people approach character writing in some cases is that they think characters are only "written well" if they're likable and that's not what good writing is about. I see such a wide variety of reactions to Viv - most of them justifiably negative -  and yet they can like or dislike her for just as many different reasons. I think that says a lot about how complex she is. There are some who dislike her because she's an opportunist, others because of her attitude, and others who dislike her because she's pro-mage, etc. Then there are also those who like her for a variety of reasons.

 

 

You know what? When Vivienne becomes the main topic, everyone immediately thinks about her skin color. I'm not complaining, just making an observation.

 

But do you know what people miss entirely? How feminine she looks even if she's bald.

 

Vivienne has a beautiful voice, knows how to wear makeup (something which can sadly be a source of trouble to dark skinned people because most companies manifacture makeup having white skinned people in mind, even though people from all ethnic groups buy makeup) and exulds charm.

 

 

So to me, she's an example of how women don't need to measure their beauty by the length of their hair. Short hair - and even no hair at all - do not erase your feminility. You are feminine for who you are, how you conduct yourself and your manners. To me, that is a very powerful statement.

 

Ironically, I've met people who claimed she looked like a drag queen with short hair.

[Hazegurl]

I usually don't agree with Xilizhra but in this case,  I do. 

 

Again, throughout the 3 games, the comic books , the world of thedas, the cartoon, other than this one instance, can anyone find a case of discrimination based on skin colour? I originally asked to find 5 examples but I'll even make it easier...Can anyone find ANY examples other than this one of skin colour discrimination.

 

The line doesn't make sense given what we have seen of Thedas...I think it was meant more as a dig at her Rivain roots thanat her skin colour. Similar to how both Dorian and Vivenne joke about being thankful that their not Antivan....

 

re: Vivenne's attractiveness

I actually was impressed with how Vivenne looks in the world as were my circle of family and friends who saw her on my PC screeen...Let's just say as a black man, usually characters who are obviously meant to be black tend to look off in MANY, MANY videogames (try making a black person in Skyrim....). But even bald, myself and my family members said that she was an attractive looking black female.

Poor defense. Just because the writers have not touched upon it before doesn't mean they aren't now.  Call it bad writing if you want, but sweeping it under the rug with mental gymnastics is just slly.  Besides, I wouldn't call his remark about her skin tone discrimination.  No one is holding Viv back based on her skin color. What he was doing was insulting her and brought up her dark skin as an insult.  Considering the fact that Rivani people come in more than just dark skin tones then I can't see how it would be a remark against her heritage as a whole. How would a remark about her vanishing in the dark be related to a Rivani heritage without her skin tone being a factor? Is there something about darkness and Ravini folks I'm missing?

 

Anyway, he was speaking about her physical appearance.  Calling her ugly, saying that her lover should turn off the lights before making love to her, then claiming that said gesture would result in him not even being able to see her when the lights are out.  He could have been calling her ugly for a variety of other reasons that had nothing at all to do with her skin color, but the disappearing in the dark remark was certainly directed at her skin tone.

 

And yeah Viv is a beautiful woman, very regal and makes a badass Divine. Perhaps the only one of the three who wears the title very well.  It's kinda weird how she makes more sense as Divine than Leliana.  lol!

[Xilizhra]

And yeah Viv is a beautiful woman,

Quite subjective, that. I found her the least attractive woman in my inner circle, though I grant that emotional considerations are a factor there (but again, subjective).

[Incantrix]

she's pretty and makes logical arguments. Pretty much I respect the character for fiercely championing what she believes in with class, wit and charm.

[Hazegurl]

Quite subjective, that. I found her the least attractive woman in my inner circle, though I grant that emotional considerations are a factor there (but again, subjective).

Of course it's subjective...when it comes to every other woman besides Viv.  Darling.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I wonder why all the people criticizing Leliana never seem to ever mention Bhelen doing pretty much the exact same thing, or the fact that a dwarf can become the ruler of a marcher city state and can make an elf, dwarf, or qunari a noble.

[Lumix19]

The issue with that statement ("all the true power") Lumix19 is it is very, VERY vague. In what scenario do the other divines NOT hold all the other power. Even in the softened Leliana case, she institutes changes that causes people to want to kill her and doesn't respond yet these self-same people don't have enough power to block her changes? Same goes for Cassandra.

If you look at all the other divine epilogues, there's never an indication that any of their changes are opposed successfully yet neither are considered tyrants or are implied to hold less than total power. Take the issue of opening up the clergy to all - this actually reduces the power of the existing clergy as you now have a much wider breadth of candiates and thus reducing the power of the existing clerics. Yet Leliana is able to institute this change and yet she isn't considered to hold all the power.

Why is it that Vivenne's reign is considered "tyrantical" and she alone of the divines is mentioned as hoarding all the power when another divine pushes through even more extreme changes and another divine has no problem with using her own forces to crush dissent that Vivenne is held up as a "BAD" divine.

That's true, it is vague. But you may note that Leliana and Cassandra's reforms are only opposed by sects (in the base game) and Leliana faces a single major rebellion in Trespasser. That indicates, to me, that their reforms only face opposition from the fringe elements, zealots like Petrice (although on a completely different issue). Perhaps they both have support from the more liberal parts of the Chantry, which certainly exist, and are thus able to push forward these reforms - not an indicator they hold total power.
But the statement "all true power" is especially mentioned in the context of the Circle situation. And barring the College, Vivienne does hold all true power since she has the templars leashed to her and the Circles under her control. The other Divine's either disband the Circle and have nothing to do with it, or institute reforms which would lessen Chantry influence and grant more independence to mages.

[introverted_assassin]

The reason we question this is that intra-human racism has literally never appeared in the series before, and if it does exist, it's really odd to reveal it in party banter.

I'm not even talking about from the perspective of racism. deductive reasoning here...well skip that, LOGIC(and experience) tells me that in that particular conversation, there could be no other meaning behind what that idiot said about her. how else would the whole "disappear into the darkness" thing or whatever his exact crappy words were mean? her being aesthetically pleasing or not has no bearing(not saying you said that) on something like that and we have never heard anything else within Thedosian lore that is comparable to this because this is the first time I've ever even saw a character that is indisputably black(and the other 2 or 3 in this game only).

And keeping it real, I'm a black woman...i'm just going to go ahead and take my word over most of you in here. I know how we all like to separate the real world from this game and I get that but that insult sounds exactly like something my older sister had to endure growing up...something I heard said to her and she is dark skinned. Whoever wrote that is from the real world and it is likely that from time to time, real world things will seep in(i.e, Dorian's personal quest because there was never a precedent set for that either in lore as far as EYE know).

I don't want to continue derailing this thread because this wasn't the point of it but this needed to be addressed.

[phishface]

Here it is again, just from Vivienne's perspective:

 

• Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
• Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse."I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
• Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.

The scene is horrible. She's clearly made a great effort to fit in, to make herself present well. She's really nervous, and is building herself up to it. But she hears the people she's trying to impress being foul about her, laughing at her, and of all things about the colour of her skin. It's excruciating, and made me feel very uncomfortable.

 

That the writer of this could do so much in so few words is very impressive.

[Lumix19]

Here it is again, just from Vivienne's perspective:

• Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
• Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse."I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
• Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.

The scene is horrible. She's clearly made a great effort to fit in, to make herself present well. She's really nervous, and is building herself up to it. But she hears the people she's trying to impress being foul about her, laughing at her, and of all things about the colour of her skin. It's excruciating, and made me feel very uncomfortable.

That the writer of this could do so much in so few words is very impressive.

It is. And her response was both clever and human.

[ModernAcademic]

Ironically, I've met people who claimed she looked like a drag queen with short hair.

 

 

What a cruel world we live in.

[YourFunnyUncle]

I'm not even talking about from the perspective of racism. deductive reasoning here...well skip that, LOGIC(and experience) tells me that in that particular conversation, there could be no other meaning behind what that idiot said about her. how else would the whole "disappear into the darkness" thing or whatever his exact crappy words were mean? her being aesthetically pleasing or not has no bearing(not saying you said that) on something like that and we have never heard anything else within Thedosian lore that is comparable to this because this is the first time I've ever even saw a character that is indisputably black(and the other 2 or 3 in this game only).

And keeping it real, I'm a black woman...i'm just going to go ahead and take my word over most of you in here. I know how we all like to separate the real world from this game and I get that but that insult sounds exactly like something my older sister had to endure growing up...something I heard said to her and she is dark skinned. Whoever wrote that is from the real world and it is likely that from time to time, real world things will seep in(i.e, Dorian's personal quest because there was never a precedent set for that either in lore as far as EYE know).

I don't want to continue derailing this thread because this wasn't the point of it but this needed to be addressed.

Yeah... I always liked that they approached racism in the game through the relationship between humans and elves (and to a lesser extent Qunari), instead of having systematic discrimination between humans based on skin colour. That remains the case, but despite that fact the comment in question is clearly racist. It's a huge stretch to read it any other way. It's annoying to me because I think you're just supposed to see the guy as an arrogant and stupid ass, but it introduces a hint of something that wasn't previously present in the setting, and I don't really know why. They could've come up with some other horrible thing for him to say about her being a mage, and kept it in keeping with all that had gone before.

[Qun00]

Well, the writers must've done something right if just mentioning her spawns 20 pages everytime.

[Bleachrude]

I wonder why all the people criticizing Leliana never seem to ever mention Bhelen doing pretty much the exact same thing, or the fact that a dwarf can become the ruler of a marcher city state and can make an elf, dwarf, or qunari a noble.

 

I'm not sure what this is in reference too....

[Dean_the_Young]

I wonder why all the people criticizing Leliana never seem to ever mention Bhelen doing pretty much the exact same thing, or the fact that a dwarf can become the ruler of a marcher city state and can make an elf, dwarf, or qunari a noble.

 

Possibly because Bhelen is hardly ever a subject of conversation in topics about Leliana.

 

Crazy idea, I know- that off-topic things don't get brought up during other topics.

 

 

But, since you do bring him up- I don't recall any Bhelen defenders trying to present him as a moral paragon of any sort. Effective? Maybe. Effective without serious, and negative, consequences? Not so much.

[Ryzaki]

Problem helps that Bhelen's opponents are weak and ineffectual. Cass and Vivienne are anything but.

[introverted_assassin]

well shout out to whoever wrote that part because if nothing more, it ignited a healthy debate.

and that, in hindsight, is why Vivenne is awesome.

[Potato Cat]

Okay, yeah I didn't respond to the original questioning of the line because I didn't want it to quickly descend into a big discussion about it. I think, for us in the real world, it's totally a racist thing to say, but it's probably more accurate for the setting to say it's xenophobic. Her dark skin is proof of her Rivaini heritage, which would just further isolate Vivienne from the rest of the court. She's a mage, she's certainly not nobility, she's a Marcher and she's not even a Marcher of Orlesian heritage.

[dragonflight288]

Vivienne is awesome, in my opinion, so far as she is a highly talented mage, was able to turn a court position that essentially was widely seen as little more than court entertainer/jester from the Circle and turned it into a position of real political power, was able to establish herself a life outside the Circle, and even among the upper echelons of Orlesian nobility and thrived in the environment where everyone is out for their own interests, where bribery, blackmail, murder and intrigue are a way of life and totally expected. 

 

Accomplishing all that she has accomplished is nothing to sneeze at.

 

What I don't like about her, is quite frankly, her willingness to play the Game, politics, and her attitude towards others if they are in no way are able to benefit her personally, like how she treats Blackwall up until she finds out he's a good liar and had deceived everyone, when all he was trying to do was be civil. I find her dismissing the dark underbelly of the Game in the Winter Palace a very dark implication in her willingness to engage in similar tactics. As a carpet cleaner, I've gone into the homes of people from all walks of life, and she reminds me way too much of the social elite who strive so hard to remain in the elite, and be perceived as better, not only by themselves but by those around them, and that rubs me the wrong way. 

 

She is very intelligent, makes many good points, and is very good at the backhanded comments, and it makes me REALLY want to have her and Morrigan in my party just to get consistent party banter, and not just a couple lines of back and forth between them if you take Vivienne to Mythal's temple in the Arbor Wilds. Well, Vivienne makes a few snide comments and Morrigan laughs it off. 

 

She's right that magic is dangerous, it has been well-established in the lore that an untrained mage is just as dangerous to themselves as they are to those around them. I find her stance on the Circle something that we really needed to see a mage take a stand on in the games because we only had mages who gave the other viewpoint in past games. 

 

I, however, strongly disagree with her on that the Circle being the only viable solution for the training of mages, as I feel it failed the mages and Thedas at an institutional level, due in large part to the systematic corruption of the templars and Seekers and their heavy abuse of authority. The two groups have utterly betrayed the trust of those who they were supposed to protect on all sides, both the mages and the mundanes, and as such in my mind, have lost any moral or legal high ground when it comes to dealing with mages and the circle's ethically and cannot be trusted to be in charge of it. 

 

Which means, to me, a new way must be attempted. 

 

Granted, Ser Barris becoming Knight-Commander and Cassandra reforming the Seekers pretty much dissolves all problems I have with both groups as the corruption is rooted out from the heart of both groups and they start over from the basics of what they are meant to do. 

 

But I trust Cassandra enough to deal with truth and justice fairly, and as a Seeker root out corruption from within the Chantry itself, so when she says Vivienne as Divine is a tyrant, I'm inclined to believe her. 

 

I respect what Vivienne has accomplished, but I cannot trust that she isn't playing the Game at all times, and thus I can never trust her motivations for any action she undertakes. She makes a dramatic introduction to the Inquisitor at her party, but Cole later reveals she manipulated Marquis Alphonse to behave in such a way just so she could humiliate and possibly kill him because of a personal insult. 

 

I simply cannot bring myself to trust her. 

[Samahl na Revas]

I just realized a similar notion in my current play-through. Of course we, Viv and I are trying to restore the circle. Three meals a day, a place to rest one's head, quite a delightful setting. Of course, care should be taken to prevent the happenings within the Kirkwall circle from ever repeating. Those pesky rebel mages are making a bad name for all mages, as if Tevinter's Magisters haven't done enough. Have they forgotten that appearances do matter? And thus I aligned with the templars to distance the Inquisition from fools.

 

Vivienne is not bad, just colorful. That is a good thing. 

[Akkos]

Well, I just want to show you guys this.......  about DA team (Mr Gaider's) creating her character.

 

Vivienne: supposed to be Mage Advisor, Dexter Butterfly, - Like "dexter morgan", highly-skilled and cold-blooded with killer instincts made into sassy, fabulous, ice queen like we have seen in-game, e.t.c.. A lot of things happened I guess. I wish they added more story to her character..   To be frank I feel like we won't see much of her again though because now I kinda know why they took off a lot of contents from her character. I'm just sad, I loved her so much.

 

SPOILERS BELOW - Includes detailed info about early character developement of Dorian's, Viv's and Krem's. Not my video. No copyrights infringement... Just sharing this with some of you interested.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I've just started to believe that  they did made her character for people to just hate her. And I was so happy cause I thought she was made into a kind of anti-hero that unfortunately didn't display at all in the game and has proven to be so very irrelevant to the plot.