1041 réponses à ce sujet

[electrifried]

I wish they added more story to Viv's character too, her voice actor really brought her to life. I loved her banter with Solas and Dorian, endless entertainment really. She also had the best scene in Trespasser, and her reaction to Solas being the dread wolf was hilarious. So many wasted opportunities in DAI that could have made the character way more substantial.

[Wulfram]

I think there's a decent chance of Vivienne showing up again.  Not as a party member, but as leader of the circle of magi and/or Divine.  At the least we'll probably run into her minions a lot.

[Qun00]

I think there's a decent chance of Vivienne showing up again. Not as a party member, but as leader of the circle of magi and/or Divine. At the least we'll probably run into her minions a lot.

Not if we don't recruit her!

Mwahahahaha

[Xilizhra]

Not if we don't recruit her!

Mwahahahaha

Unfortunately, she still creates a new Circle even if you don't.

[Boost32]

Not if we don't recruit her!
Mwahahahaha

She becomes the leader of the Circles even if you don't recruit her.

[Xilizhra]

She becomes the leader of the Circles even if you don't recruit her.

She's a true blight on the game. Maybe if we started a campaign to make her killable somehow in the fourth game...

[Steelcan]

She's a true blight on the game. Maybe if we started a campaign to make her killable somehow in the fourth game...

I got to kill Fiona, you guys deserve the right to kill Vivienne

[Xilizhra]

I got to kill Fiona, you guys deserve the right to kill Vivienne

And there we go. I don't even begrudge your chance to do so.

[Iakus]

She's a true blight on the game. Maybe if we started a campaign to make her killable somehow in the fourth game...

Maybe she'd come back as a lyrium ghost...

[Xilizhra]

Maybe she'd come back as a lyrium ghost...

Nah, the Temple of Sacred Ashes was blown up.

[introverted_assassin]

So if Vivenne doesn't/didn't play the Game, what other alternative to ascension/respect/whatever in Orlais could she have taken? This is a genuine question because I've been trying to figure this out myself. I have some thoughts but would like to see other perspectives.

[Xilizhra]

So if Vivenne doesn't/didn't play the Game, what other alternative to ascension/respect/whatever in Orlais could she have taken? This is a genuine question because I've been trying to figure this out myself. I have some thoughts but would like to see other perspectives.

Why would she have to? She could have stayed in Ostwick.

[Dabrikishaw]

I got to kill Fiona, you guys deserve the right to kill Vivienne

Equal opportunities all around.

[Boost32]

I got to kill Fiona, you guys deserve the right to kill Vivienne

If Vivienne ever sided with Corypheus I would agree, but since she is not a criminal like Fiona, I do not agree.

[Hazegurl]

I got to kill Fiona, you guys deserve the right to kill Vivienne

Only if Vivienne betrays her country, sides with an Ancient Magister who wants to destroy the world, sanctions murdering tranquil while selling the rest of her comrades into slavery.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Only if Vivienne betrays her country, sides with the Qunari who wants to conquer the world, sanctions murdering mages while selling the rest of her comrades into slavery.

Fixed for what is more likely to happen. I hope for killable Vivienne. She is a scourge on Thedas and rightly deserves to be killed.

[Xilizhra]

Fixed for what is more likely to happen. I hope for killable Vivienne. She is a scourge on Thedas and rightly deserves to be killed.

Why would Vivienne side with the qunari? Their entire philosophy is antithetical to personal power, and especially mages holding any power; they wouldn't match Vivienne's style at all. Not all villains are predisposed to work together.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Why would Vivienne side with the qunari? Their entire philosophy is antithetical to personal power, and especially mages holding any power; they wouldn't match Vivienne's style at all. Not all villains are predisposed to work together.

To eliminate Tevinter and likely because she thinks she can outsmart them.

[Boost32]

Fixed for what is more likely to happen. I hope for killable Vivienne. She is a scourge on Thedas and rightly deserves to be killed.

When she do that, please tell me.
"She deserves to be killed because I dont like her", thats a good reasoning right there.

[Hazegurl]

To eliminate Tevinter and likely because she thinks she can outsmart them.

LOL! Why would she ever want to side with the Qunari or destroy Tevinter?  

[WikipediaBrown]

I really like Vivienne, though she was underutilized during the political plot points. I see where the writers were going with her character, but if they could have shown her in her element and had her help the Inquisitor through a tough political situation with her Orlesian nobility connections I think more people would find some empathy for her background and viewpoints.

 

Both Vivienne and Sera are rather atypical Bioware characters because neither of them "fall in line" with the player's will, which most people unconsciously expect and puts the first impressions off on a bad footing, which may or may not recover. Vivienne also has a rather neutral, or even chilly exterior and hides her full reasoning for her views and beliefs, and we are conditioned to have characters spill their deepest secrets after a couple conversations. 

 

I find it easy to empathize with a woman who started out with nothing and used her wit and intelligence along with her Circle training to claw her way into a position most mages would never dream of, all the while having to hide any weaknesses that would be used to condemn her. Showing affection or sadness, artlessly presenting her thought processes or true views, all that is verboten as she would be annihilated by her enemies at court, so yeah she does come off as uncaring unless she trusts you, but that does not make her evil or untrustworthy, just cautious. 

 

Much like a person who has experienced starvation would compulsively hoard food, she grasps for every chance to show her status (in both demeanor and appearance.) She is justly proud of her accomplishments and yet still insecure that they are so precariously situated that everything she's worked for can come tumbling down due to circumstances beyond her control. It may be an unlikable trait, but it's definitely relatable. 

 

I think she does care deeply about others, including mages, and is the only mage I can actually remember that says flat out that magic is dangerous. Dangerous for both the mages themselves and the mundanes. When mages first gain magic abilities, they are uncontrolled and dangerous to themselves and others, and only by going through proper training (like the Circle) can they gain power over their abilities. Without the Circles in place, I'm sure many people would slaughter young untrained mages rather than risk a village burning down or possession. Many pro-mage freedom people don't believe that Circles without templars rapin' and killin' and generally being terrible humans exist, but I think that Vivienne's experience proves them wrong, and she wants other mages to have the same experience she had. I figure her Circle was more like Hogwarts rather than Kirkwall, so for her being Pro-Circle is not throwing other mages under the bus, but saving them from a life spent in hiding from non-mages who rightly fear them. 

 

She does tend to favor mutually beneficial arrangements but I think that's entirely reasonable, much like her other views. She probably can't remember the last time she made a thoughtless decision, and I respect that she carefully weighs viewpoints and outcomes instead of rushing headlong into something without a goal or contingency plan. How many people honestly do something for nothing? How many of us go to work without getting paid? So what if she joined the Inquisition because she thought she might get some political power if they succeeded? If they failed there would be not be a world left to boss around anyway, lol. 

 

Whether she and Bastien loved each other, were fond of each other, or merely used their positions to further each other's career is their business, I find it odd that so many people have an issue with it when his own wife and family are fully knowledgeable and just fine with the situation. Leliana changes Chantry laws just to get some action with the HOF, but few call her out for that. 

 

Vivienne reminds me of something I read about Michelle Obama. She relentlessly pursued knowledge and education, but people would constantly try to hold her down because of her race and background. Even though it must have been very difficult and at times felt hopeless, she never gave up. She grew up in a neighborhood with a country club that was whites only, and when Michelle and Barack were married, they held their wedding reception there. That just seems like the most wonderful, passive aggressive f*ck you she could have given to that place, and I think Vivienne would approve!

 

TL;DR: Vivienne is an amazing yet polarizing character, and I wish they had showed her off to better advantage. I still grit my teeth every time I read someone describe her as "uppity" or a "bed wench." I find it is a usually a coded way to put down black women, much like "thug" for black men, and it is not very respectful to people who may be reading this thread. 

[introverted_assassin]

I see.

My thought is she surveyed the environment and figured out very early on that the Game was the only way she'd gain any modicum of respect among the nobles. And as much as I hate to admit it, they run Orlais. I figure she wanted a certain type of life and wanted to be looked at as more than just a mage...and since that position she held at Court was apparently expendable or interchangeable, she was smart enough to know that every connection is a chance to build the life SHE wants. I can't fault her for thinking this way and judging by her actions, "by any means necessary...except sloppy", seems the code of her movements.

So staying in the Circle just doesn't align with what her aspirations were and clearly they went beyond being a mentor there and expanding out into the world beyond the tower doors. This also addresses my issue with mages being locked away. Because you don't see or interact with them often, you don't know anything other than the repeated rhetoric "magic exists to serve mankind..." or that mages are dangerous. "Dangerous" being synonymous with the way the word "terrorist" is often loosely thrown around when fear is the catalyst for whatever agenda. So the mundane are taught to fear what they don't understand. And bringing this back to Viv in Orlais, again, the nobles run things. So perhaps she thought "let me show them that I can do this and there is nothing to fear"...Again, I cannot find a problem with that line of thinking, considering her environment. This is what she had to work with. People that view anguish as a sport and regularly engage in inflicting it.

I think the backlash ensues because we never get a glimpse of how Viv helps her fellow mages in a sense of day to day or even on a larger scale once the rebellion begins...like help from the perspective of the common person. That's the disconnect for me but I still respect her immensely.

[WikipediaBrown]

My thought is she surveyed the environment and figured out very early on that the Game was the only way she'd gain any modicum of respect among the nobles. 

 So perhaps she thought "let me show them that I can do this and there is nothing to fear"...Again, I cannot find a problem with that line of thinking, considering her environment. This is what she had to work with. People that view anguish as a sport and regularly engage in inflicting it.

I think the backlash ensues because we never get a glimpse of how Viv helps her fellow mages in a sense of day to day or even on a larger scale once the rebellion begins...like help from the perspective of the common person. That's the disconnect for me but I still respect her immensely.

 

As distasteful as the Game is, it was probably Vivenne's best opportunity and she used it to great advantage. I think you are right about Vivienne wanting to prove that mages can be trusted, and that is why she is so disparaging to Fiona, because in her eyes she is making the situation worse and proving the common view that mages are dangerous and unpredictable, basically undoing everything Vivienne is trying to accomplish. I don't see her as against mages having freedoms to come and go and have lives outside of Circles, just Fiona's methods and lack of planning causing innocents (Tranquils, mages that want to actually want to be in Circles, etc.) to be caught in the cross fire. As amusing as I found Vivenne's verbal lashing of Fiona, I too would have liked to see Vivienne help/positively interact with other mages, to show another (more sympathetic) side to her character. 

[Iakus]

LOL! Why would she ever want to side with the Qunari or destroy Tevinter?  

More likely she'd stand out of the way and let them kill each other.  She's not one to meet an enemy head-on.  She tricks them into destroying themselves.

[Qun00]

I really like Vivienne, though she was underutilized during the political plot points. I see where the writers were going with her character, but if they could have shown her in her element and had her help the Inquisitor through a tough political situation with her Orlesian nobility connections I think more people would find some empathy for her background and viewpoints.

Both Vivienne and Sera are rather atypical Bioware characters because neither of them "fall in line" with the player's will, which most people unconsciously expect and puts the first impressions off on a bad footing, which may or may not recover. Vivienne also has a rather neutral, or even chilly exterior and hides her full reasoning for her views and beliefs, and we are conditioned to have characters spill their deepest secrets after a couple conversations.

I find it easy to empathize with a woman who started out with nothing and used her wit and intelligence along with her Circle training to claw her way into a position most mages would never dream of, all the while having to hide any weaknesses that would be used to condemn her. Showing affection or sadness, artlessly presenting her thought processes or true views, all that is verboten as she would be annihilated by her enemies at court, so yeah she does come off as uncaring unless she trusts you, but that does not make her evil or untrustworthy, just cautious.

Much like a person who has experienced starvation would compulsively hoard food, she grasps for every chance to show her status (in both demeanor and appearance.) She is justly proud of her accomplishments and yet still insecure that they are so precariously situated that everything she's worked for can come tumbling down due to circumstances beyond her control. It may be an unlikable trait, but it's definitely relatable.

I think she does care deeply about others, including mages, and is the only mage I can actually remember that says flat out that magic is dangerous. Dangerous for both the mages themselves and the mundanes. When mages first gain magic abilities, they are uncontrolled and dangerous to themselves and others, and only by going through proper training (like the Circle) can they gain power over their abilities. Without the Circles in place, I'm sure many people would slaughter young untrained mages rather than risk a village burning down or possession. Many pro-mage freedom people don't believe that Circles without templars rapin' and killin' and generally being terrible humans exist, but I think that Vivienne's experience proves them wrong, and she wants other mages to have the same experience she had. I figure her Circle was more like Hogwarts rather than Kirkwall, so for her being Pro-Circle is not throwing other mages under the bus, but saving them from a life spent in hiding from non-mages who rightly fear them.

She does tend to favor mutually beneficial arrangements but I think that's entirely reasonable, much like her other views. She probably can't remember the last time she made a thoughtless decision, and I respect that she carefully weighs viewpoints and outcomes instead of rushing headlong into something without a goal or contingency plan. How many people honestly do something for nothing? How many of us go to work without getting paid? So what if she joined the Inquisition because she thought she might get some political power if they succeeded? If they failed there would be not be a world left to boss around anyway, lol.

Whether she and Bastien loved each other, were fond of each other, or merely used their positions to further each other's career is their business, I find it odd that so many people have an issue with it when his own wife and family are fully knowledgeable and just fine with the situation. Leliana changes Chantry laws just to get some action with the HOF, but few call her out for that.

Vivienne reminds me of something I read about Michelle Obama. She relentlessly pursued knowledge and education, but people would constantly try to hold her down because of her race and background. Even though it must have been very difficult and at times felt hopeless, she never gave up. She grew up in a neighborhood with a country club that was whites only, and when Michelle and Barack were married, they held their wedding reception there. That just seems like the most wonderful, passive aggressive f*ck you she could have given to that place, and I think Vivienne would approve!

TL;DR: Vivienne is an amazing yet polarizing character, and I wish they had showed her off to better advantage. I still grit my teeth every time I read someone describe her as "uppity" or a "bed wench." I find it is a usually a coded way to put down black women, much like "thug" for black men, and it is not very respectful to people who may be reading this thread.

Vivienne rose in social status thanks to her womanly wiles rather than wits, and that comfortable position made her unable to so much as acknowledge her people's plight.

"Malcontents", she calls them.