Vivienne rose in social status thanks to her womanly wiles rather than wits and that comfortable position made her unable to so much as acknowledge her people's plight.
"Malcontents", she calls them.
You know, the irony is, that if Leliana is divine, Vivienne is the one that becomes a malcontent. She is the one that defies the system in power.
As distasteful as the Game is, it was probably Vivenne's best opportunity and she used it to great advantage. I think you are right about Vivienne wanting to prove that mages can be trusted, and that is why she is so disparaging to Fiona, because in her eyes she is making the situation worse and proving the common view that mages are dangerous and unpredictable, basically undoing everything Vivienne is trying to accomplish. I don't see her as against mages having freedoms to come and go and have lives outside of Circles, just Fiona's methods and lack of planning causing innocents (Tranquils, mages that want to actually want to be in Circles, etc.) to be caught in the cross fire. As amusing as I found Vivenne's verbal lashing of Fiona, I too would have liked to see Vivienne help/positively interact with other mages, to show another (more sympathetic) side to her character.
So if Vivenne doesn't/didn't play the Game, what other alternative to ascension/respect/whatever in Orlais could she have taken? This is a genuine question because I've been trying to figure this out myself. I have some thoughts but would like to see other perspectives.
There is none. Not for a mage or a non-mage alike. The Game is the only way to advance in Orlais socially.
The problem is that the Game in and of itself is a blight celebrating the worst aspects of the human condition.
Thus I generally have a low opinion of anyone who plays it.
That's unfair and quite darn sexist. I highly doubt that she got to where she is just simply by Netflix and chill with the Duke real well. She is no airhead and that is clear when talking to her and how almost everything she does is from a tactical perspective. Come now...you don't have to like her but yeen gotta reduce her upward mobility to creative sex work.Vivienne rose in social status thanks to her womanly wiles rather than wits, and that comfortable position made her unable to so much as acknowledge her people's plight.
"Malcontents", she calls them.
You know, the irony is, that if Leliana is divine, Vivienne is the one that becomes a malcontent. She is the one that defies the system in power.
This. Funny how when she loses power, she's the one who winds up being the malcontent.
re: Vivienne's ambition
I actually LIKE this aspect of Vivienne and why I think she's one of the most well rounded individuals not just companion. She herself acknowledges that without magic, she porbably wouldn't BE involved with a noble since she would be just some normal Rivani peasant
As well, I don't think Orlesians hold it against someone that you advance by becoming a mistress/consort given that during the Winter Palace quest, they EXPLICITLY announce people as the mistress/consort to other people. Bastien's wife and family seem to actually be friends with Vivienne as well so taking offense that Vivienne advanced socially partly through sex is more on us the gamers who had a distast for that type of advancement.
(Note I said partly...it's quite clear Vivienne used ALL her assets, sex, magic, intelligence to get where she was socially)
the bolded is it exactly. originally I thought it was a case of professional jealousy but that was before I talked to Viv about the rebellion and got her point of view. Mix that in with getting to know her a bit better...I don't think she was against the rebellion or the idea of it...the way it was done seems to be her bigger issue and the timing of it all. That is also where I get conflicted because I see her point but when is it ever the perfect time to rebel? Perhaps most feel her methods were too passive-aggressive or self-serving but I think it's more of a case of wanting to effect immediate change after dealing with some of the reprehensible conditions in some Circles vs her looking at the large picture and effecting change over time.
I can see both sides of the issue, and of course to the mages trapped in bad circumstances being treated inhumanely any amount of waiting around is too long. On the other hand, since the Mage/Templar situation had come to a crisis point and the Conclave was called, Vivienne probably thought a better leader than Fiona could have pushed for change/reforms to the Circle system (nonviolently) instead of...well we all know what she did. If you look at the situation from the outsider perspective, a bunch of terrorist mages have gone rogue, blown up a chantry, and now they are roaming the countryside and joining up with Tevinter magisters. Non-mages aren't likely to look too kindly on any mage they may come across in that situation. The whole thing could have been handled better, no matter how you look at it.
I can see both sides of the issue, and of course to the mages trapped in bad circumstances being treated inhumanely any amount of time waiting around is too long. On the other hand, since the Mage/Templar situation had come to a crisis point and the Conclave was called, Vivienne probably thought a better leader than Fiona could have pushed for change/reforms to the Circle system (nonviolently) instead of...well we all know what she did. If you look at the situation from the outsider perspective, a bunch of terrorists mages have gone rogue, blown up a chantry, and now they are roaming the countryside and joining up with Tevinter magisters. Non-mages aren't likely to look too kindly on any mage they may come across in that situation. The whole thing could have been handled better, no matter how you look at it.
It absolutely could have been. This doesn't mean that Vivienne has any moral ground to stand on. The right thing to do would have been to run PR damage control for the rebellion, not try to crush it.
I would like to point out that Morrigan got to exactly the same position as Vivienne and didn't have to play the Game, Cole even points out how peeved Vivienne is about that.There is none. Not for a mage or a non-mage alike. The Game is the only way to advance in Orlais socially.
The problem is that the Game in and of itself is a blight celebrating the worst aspects of the human condition.
Thus I generally have a low opinion of anyone who plays it.
How do we know Morrigan didn't play the game? She made herself useful to the right person, pretty much a part of the Game. Vivienne was mad that Morrigan replaced her not that Morrigan didn't play the Game to get inside the Palace.
PR damage control? How exactly could she have turned the tide aside from actually being in the Inquisitor's position? I'm sure there is respect(or fear)among the nobles in Orlais for her but what would that have done for those mages in Ferelden? After that explosion at the Conclave and the Divine being dead, no one wanted to listen to anyone(Quizzy had to work for it...even with the Mark) so by the time ish got really real, there is no damage control for that. You saw how they were clamoring to try to protect themselves in Val Royeaux before they got played.It absolutely could have been. This doesn't mean that Vivienne has any moral ground to stand on. The right thing to do would have been to run PR damage control for the rebellion, not try to crush it.
I can see both sides of the issue, and of course to the mages trapped in bad circumstances being treated inhumanely any amount of waiting around is too long. On the other hand, since the Mage/Templar situation had come to a crisis point and the Conclave was called, Vivienne probably thought a better leader than Fiona could have pushed for change/reforms to the Circle system (nonviolently) instead of...well we all know what she did. If you look at the situation from the outsider perspective, a bunch of terrorist mages have gone rogue, blown up a chantry, and now they are roaming the countryside and joining up with Tevinter magisters. Non-mages aren't likely to look too kindly on any mage they may come across in that situation. The whole thing could have been handled better, no matter how you look at it.
What makes you think non-violent protests could've worked? And what makes you think non-mages haven't already been looking unkindly on mages in general way before the crisis and war? Before DA2? Before DAO? Before whatever?
I would like to point out that Morrigan got to exactly the same position as Vivienne and didn't have to play the Game, Cole even points out how peeved Vivienne is about that.
Well yeah. Morrigan is just that awesome.
Of course, being a shapeshifter who can turn into a bird, fly into Celene's room and be able to accurately promise answers to the arcane that a Circle Mage can't or won't answer gives a huge advantage.
Not saying that's what actually happened, as I don't know how Morrigan got so high positioned in Celene's court, but Morrigan has talents that no Circle mage would ever have.
Yet another something that I think Vivienne would be pissed off about.
On a side note, I like their interaction in the Temple of Mythal. Vivienne makes snide comments and Morrigan just laughs it off, which I think gets under Vivienne's skin even further.
Well yeah. Morrigan is just that awesome.
Of course, being a shapeshifter who can turn into a bird, fly into Celene's room and be able to accurately promise answers to the arcane that a Circle Mage can't or won't answer gives a huge advantage.
Not saying that's what actually happened, as I don't know how Morrigan got so high positioned in Celene's court, but Morrigan has talents that no Circle mage would ever have.
Yet another something that I think Vivienne would be pissed off about.
On a side note, I like their interaction in the Temple of Mythal. Vivienne makes snide comments and Morrigan just laughs it off, which I think gets under Vivienne's skin even further.
I could totally see Vivienne getting pissed off at seeing someone give her the same atitude she uses on others. I think we already answered that question. The reason Morrigan fell into Celene's grace and rose up is because she had answers for magical matters that no other mage could give. Not even Vivienne herself, who had an strained education at the circle.
How do we know Morrigan didn't play the game? She made herself useful to the right person, pretty much a part of the Game. Vivienne was mad that Morrigan replaced her not that Morrigan didn't play the Game to get inside the Palace.
What makes you think non-violent protests could've worked? And what makes you think non-mages haven't already been looking unkindly on mages in general way before the crisis and war? Before DA2? Before DAO? Before whatever?
No one knows for sure, but I think since Divine Justinia called the Conclave it was a good chance for mages and templars to try to come to some compromise, she at least was willing to listen to both sides. Sure, many non-mages probably feared mages before the Anders Incident and the rebellion, but a recent event that was so major and unexpected would escalate people's dislike and distrust of mages. It's somewhat similar to how in the U.S. politicians and the general public loudly argue for (and against) stricter gun control laws after a mass shooting, but after a few months the initial fervor quiets down until another tragedy. (It seems somewhat callous to compare real life tragedies to a video game, but I think it does illustrate human nature.)
Vivienne is a very mature and principled woman. She earned her position as first enchanter and improved the court position in Orlais into a powerful one. You can say she is the best at what she does, but that's not saying she has the answer to everything. So far I've brought her along in my dragon hunts, the Grand Ball, and the introduction to Redcliffe just to get her dialogue. But getting a progressive dialogue with Cole is arduous and often it doesn't go past me supporting Cole.
If there were a subplot about fighting abominations in Skyhold and elsewhere maybe we'd understand her more easily.
Vivienne rose in social status thanks to her womanly wiles rather than wits, and that comfortable position made her unable to so much as acknowledge her people's plight.
"Malcontents", she calls them.
She rose in social status thanks to her wits, yeah. But she wasn't sleeping her way to the top. Her relationship with Bastien caused both of them more political harm than good.
She also acknowledges her people's plight quite readily. She just thinks Fiona and her followers were confirming all the fears people have about mages.
WHich, yeah, they kinda were.
No one knows for sure, but I think since Divine Justinia called the Conclave it was a good chance for mages and templars to try to come to some compromise, she at least was willing to listen to both sides. Sure, many non-mages probably feared mages before the Anders Incident and the rebellion, but a recent event that was so major and unexpected would escalate people's dislike and distrust of mages. It's somewhat similar to how in the U.S. politicians and the general public loudly argue for (and against) stricter gun control laws after a mass shooting, but after a few months the initial fervor quiets down until another tragedy. (It seems somewhat callous to compare real life tragedies to a video game, but I think it does illustrate human nature.)
Heck the Divine was receptive to reforming the Circles years before. Before Fiona hijacked the White SPire conclave and Adrien murdered Pharamond and framed Rhys for it.
This was the DIvine who was actively searching fro an alternative to the Rite of Tranquility, remember.
Heck the Divine was receptive to reforming the Circles years before. Before Fiona hijacked the White SPire conclave and Adrien murdered Pharamond and framed Rhys for it.
This was the DIvine who was actively searching fro an alternative to the Rite of Tranquility, remember.
Fiona hijacked it to push a vote, yes, but she did so legally.
Lambert, in his own internal musings wanted her out of the way and a new Divine more willing to let the Seekers do what they will to take her place, and declares martial law even before a vote is actually made and starts killing.
But let's not get bogged down in semantics.
Fiona had fault in the conclave going fubar, but Lambert dealt the first blow of the war and shed first blood, and was acting against the orders and interests of the Divine as well.
The same Divine actively looking for a substitute for tranquility, a rite that had actually been held long-secret by the Seekers as the source of their power and abilities.
Her finding a cure to Tranquility is essentially the very thing that Lambert and every Lord-Seeker before him desperately tried to keep under wraps.
Fiona's biggest faults are, apparently, being hot-headed and jumping into a situation and pulling her fellows alongside with her and provoking a few over-earnest templars, and then having no plan. Lambert's, and the Seekers faults are stacked a wee-bit higher in my opinion.
Heck the Divine was receptive to reforming the Circles years before. Before Fiona hijacked the White SPire conclave and Adrien murdered Pharamond and framed Rhys for it.
This was the DIvine who was actively searching fro an alternative to the Rite of Tranquility, remember.
Lets remember here the reason Fiona "hijacked" the White Spire Conclave was because it was the first conclave to be permitted after 1 or 2 years since the forced disbandment of the College of Enchanters and its right to gather and conclave. Can one really blame Fiona for hijacking?
Lets remember here the reason Fiona "hijacked" the White Spire Conclave was because it was the first conclave to be permitted after 1 or 2 years since the forced disbandment of the College of Enchanters and its right to gather and conclave. Can one really blame Fiona for hijacking?
And as Grand Enchanter, having the authority to do so, regardless what the Seekers and Templars are comfortable with.
Lets remember here the reason Fiona "hijacked" the White Spire Conclave was because it was the first conclave to be permitted after 1 or 2 years since the forced disbandment of the College of Enchanters and its right to gather and conclave. Can one really blame Fiona for hijacking?
Absolutely.
Fiona sabotaged a good-faith effort for reform and compromise, which the majority of everyone wanted, and pushed a personal agenda, that only a minority of people wanted, in a way that deliberately stoked tensions.
It was not necessarily. It was not even a good idea for her constitutency. Fiona took an outreach, in which the Divine willingly set herself up in conflict with her own Templars and Seekers, and substituted it with a three-part plan of "**** the Divine," "???", "FREEDOM."
That plan, it bears remembering, ended with Fiona throwing the mage rebellion's survival to the mercies of the Ferelden monarchy... and then selling the survivors, and children, into slavery when she decided that wasn't good enough.
So yes. Fiona can absolutely be blamed for hijacking a meeting she didn't have to, and for screwing things up worse than they had to.
And as Grand Enchanter, having the authority to do so, regardless what the Seekers and Templars are comfortable with.
If you intent to appeal to legalism, the Grand Enchanter doesn't have the authority to push for independence in the first place. There's no 'Mages get to leave the Circles if they want' clause for her to stand on.
It absolutely could have been. This doesn't mean that Vivienne has any moral ground to stand on. The right thing to do would have been to run PR damage control for the rebellion, not try to crush it.
Xil, one day I really do hope you mature enough to come to accept that 'right thing' doesn't mean 'agree with and support Xilizhra's preferences.'
Vivienne vocally opposed a course of action she thought was ill-thought, self-destructive to the mages, and harmful to others- and she was right on all three grounds. Instead of wandering through the Hinterlands and setting people on fire, or watching passively as her organization's off-shoots set people on fire, or even supporting Templars who going about setting other people on fire between killing mages, Vivienne organized dissenters that the Rebellion tried to have killed, and used her position and influence to help them safely sit out the war. Without selling them into slavery, no less. These are all things even you should be able to concede are good, even if they do not support your rebellion- identifying and raising problems, protecting mages from Templars and malevolent mages, and not inflaming the situation at the cost of innocents.
And if you really wish to keep any kind of score based on your track record... Vivienne, to my knowledge, has never advocated genocide of all the humans of Thedas in pursuit of immortality for a racial minority oligarchy, the defense of mind-controlling police states... or relentlessly pushed for ruinously ill-planned and ill-staged rebellions that were pointed out as such at the time. She did not support or defend framing innocents with charges of murder to push them into her movement, did not approve of forcing the Circle to fight for a cause the majority did not want, didn't dismiss all suffering that resulted as solely the responsibility of her opponents, and did not routinely defend revolutionary leadership so remarkable that it's own leaders sold the survivors into slavery by the end.
Vivienne didn't do all those things. You have. Do step down from your moral posturing, Xil. Vivienne has more grounds to stand on than you do.
Believing that peaceful reform and compromise were possible is rather naive. The Templars demonstrated no willingness to go along with it, and every willingness to defy the Divine's orders.
And ultimately, the Mage rebellion worked. It created a political momentum for mage freedom that even Divine Vivienne had to bow to.
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