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In hindsight, Vivienne is awesome


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#551
Xilizhra

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Everything that you have criticized Xil for supporting I find a lot more grey than you are portraying - certainly you do a disservice to the causes of Solas and the Qunari by portraying the first as a genocide to support a racial minority oligarchy and the second as "mind-controlling police states".

To clarify: the first was something I'd posited before Inquisition as a contingency if the extinction of elves was imminent, and the second was actually a claim made about Control in ME3 and my idea of indoctrinating warlike leaders to head off any potential wars they might start.



#552
Dean_the_Young

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Sabotaged a good-faith effort? Barring her being suddenly psychic she would have absolutely no idea what the Divine's plan was apart from vague and undefined reforms, promises that Wynne had used the last time but hadn't actually materialized - in fact the situation had gotten worse. Add that to the precedent of Grand Cleric Elthina, who Fiona rightly points out as trying to keep everybody happy and resolving absolutely nothing, with the only actual change resulting from her death, and can you blame Fiona for pushing an new agenda?

 

 

Of course I can- because as a leader, Fiona should be looking at more than just the reasons to do something, but also the reasons NOT to do something, and the consequences thereof.

 

Even ignorring her complete lack of planning for the rebellion she midwifed, Fiona's accusation of Elthina also misses an important dynamic of Kirkwall's situation- that while Elthinca did not solve the situation, she also helped keep it from getting worse while providing the opportunity for it to get better. Thrask's coup was one such development that, had it worked, might have resolved things. It wouldn't have had the time to try had Meredith had her way far earlier. Even if Elthina didn't have the power or position to remove Meredith once Meredith was in a state to warrant removing, she remained a significant limiter on Meredith's actions (from things as basic as searching quarters to something as great as Annulment).

 

It's also not clear what, exactly, Fiona would have considered an acceptable solution, other than whatever aggrees with her. Seekers did investigate- and found things that were grounds for tolerating the Templars. And the Circle of Kirkwall was corrupt- as high as the Grand Enchanter- with blood mages and maleficar.

 

 

Justinia's outreach by inviting the Mages to convene to discuss reforms was absolutely a good-faith effort: so much so, that she had her own Templars murdered even after Fiona made a major transgression and insult of it. And this was after sanctioning research into resolving one of the greatest cassus belli of the Rebellion, Tranquility- which it's very unlikely the Divine and her recruited mages would have kept secret.
 

 

Fiona identifies (I think rightly) that the Chantry had essentially lost control of the templars to Lambert, who's aim was to imprison the mages and shift the balance of power to the Seekers, and by extension templars.

 

Fiona is also responsible for doing her best to ensure that the Divine would lose control if she supported the mages, turning it from a situation in which she had the Divine and a signficant part of the Chantry on her side as the Divine struggled with her Lord Seeker, to a situation in which Fiona had no one standing between her and the Templars (whom she could not beat).

 

'The situation is bad, so let's make it intolerable' is rarely a winning play... and it wasn't. Fiona's own admission is that the mages lost the war.

 

-snip-

 

Essentially, if Fiona did not have the legality to hijack the meeting, Lambert did not have the legality to declare the Nevarran Accord void or to act outside the Divine's directive, as he frequently did. 

 

If we're concerned with legalism, then we'd need to know the exact nature of the Nevarran Accord. I don't think Fiona or Lambert were particularly concerned with it- though if there is a legalism to consider, the Templars likely have the better claim (the Chantry isn't upholding its end of the bargain of keeping the Circles) than the Mages (unilateral dissolution).

 

 

I disagree, it was an expression of mage dissatisfaction and one that got the Divine to call the Conclave so the Templars and Mages could resolve their issues. What would have actually occurred had the Conclave not exploded we can't know. But this expression is enough that every ending requires the College be formed because it shows that the "pendulum has swung", as Giselle points out, and mages are no longer willing to trade in their freedoms for their security.

 

Except they totally did- not only when they sold themselves into slavery to Tevinter, but before that when they submitted to Ferelden's authority in return for sanctuary, and before that when the reason Fiona got her majority vote was because she backed the mages into a corner where the only security from the Templars was revolt. The entire mage rebellion was a series of points where fighting the Templars was the more secure prospect than not fighting the Templars.

 

Also, requirement conditions aren't the same as causal conditions. You have to breath in order to write a term paper- breathing is not responsible for you writing the term paper.

 

The Mage Rebellion was a great expression of mage disatisfaction... which was already identified, and considered legitimate, before the mage rebellion began. Causus belli were already being addressed (Tranquility as an unjust punishment), de-escalation was occuring (restoring the meetings), and reconciliation with an aim of concessions towards the mages were already on the agenda.

 

 

 

 

The source is a single incident in a single tower where a mage was killed by rebels. There's no indication that this was the case for most dissenters.

 

That's not the claim. The claim is that the dissenters who didn't want to go along with the rebellion were being killed.

 

This is manifestly true, by multiple accounts- and even repeats itself later, if/when the rebel mages join the Venatori.



#553
Lumix19

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To clarify: the first was something I'd posited before Inquisition as a contingency if the extinction of elves was imminent, and the second was actually a claim made about Control in ME3 and my idea of indoctrinating warlike leaders to head off any potential wars they might start.

Ah my mistake then. The second is not that bad though. How does the first work?



#554
Xilizhra

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Ah my mistake then. The second is not that bad though. How does the first work?

Well, it wouldn't, really. But my idea (keep in mind, again, that this was an idea only ever to be used if elves were going to be rendered extinct otherwise) was some kind of magically tailored plague that would only hit humans.



#555
Boost32

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Clearly indicative of the systematic killing of dissenters.

Good to know you agree.

So you're going to ignore what Evangeline and Fiona said?
You'll also note that the previous vote was actually allowed to continue to the end? The vote was put down by Wynne but there was no intervention by the templars, even if the conclave was dissolved afterwards.

Yes, they aren't the most natural party for me to believe in them.

The previous vote was punished with the dissolution of the College, just because the templars didn't intervene at that time, it didn't mean it was legal.

#556
Barquiel

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I don't see how Justinia could've stopped Lambert. He may answer to her, but he controls all the swords of both the Seekers and the Templars, and was actively acting against her wishes and was trying to get her replaced with someone more favorable to his interests. 
 
He had all the sword-arms, thus he had all the real power.


You're right, she probably couldn't have stopped Lambert (as one of the chantry sisters put it: "We wanted the templars to treat mages more fairly and they rebelled for it.").

My point was more that it is completely irrelevant that Justinia wanted to reform the circles or treat the mages more fairly. The rebellion was still justified. Justinia simply didn't achieve anything and the conditions within the Circles have gotten much worse under her reign...and Fiona didn't have any reason to believe that this will change.

#557
Bleachrude

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Hmm...I thought the Templars technically werent under the control of the Divine? My understanding was that the templars were under the control of the Chantry as long as the Circle system existed....Was that not the original agreement that caused the templars to join the chantry?

 

re: Tranquility

The one thing I honestly don't get is _WHY_ the Tranquility issue was such a hot button issue....By Chantry law, a harrowed mage couldn't be subject to tranquility (yes, as a mage inquisitor you can sentence someone to being Tranquil, but legally by Chantry law, this was not legal). The only thing unclear is whether or not there was a time frame by which a mage HAD to take their Harrowing or if it was possible just to remain an apprentice...I'm loath to use Jowan since, well, he's kind of a ******. There's Alrik and he was using Tranquility but Alrik explicitly was hiding his depravities since they were illegal so why was tranquility such a breaking point?

 

I mean, check the wikia if you don't believe me...



#558
Boost32

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Hmm...I thought the Templars technically werent under the control of the Divine? My understanding was that the templars were under the control of the Chantry as long as the Circle system existed....Was that not the original agreement that caused the templars to join the chantry?

Yes, but they were under the control of the Chantry.
Thats why Meredith needed the Elthinia approval to the RoA.

They should obey the Divine orders because she was their superior, but she was a retarded person who killed her own people.

#559
thesuperdarkone2

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Yes, but they were under the control of the Chantry.
Thats why Meredith needed the Elthinia approval to the RoA.

They should obey the Divine orders because she was their superior, but she was a retarded person who killed her own people.

Funny how you conveneiently forget the templars let the assassin get through in the first place in the hopes of either killing her or making her anti-mage.



#560
Dean_the_Young

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To clarify: the first was something I'd posited before Inquisition as a contingency if the extinction of elves was imminent, and the second was actually a claim made about Control in ME3 and my idea of indoctrinating warlike leaders to head off any potential wars they might start.

 

To clarify Xilizhra's selective memory of past positions-

 

There was no imminent extinction of the elves.

 

Xil's argument, after conceding that a racial eugenics system for preserving a pure-blooded elven population was contrary to her stated goal of integration if racial equality and integration was achieved, changed to the advocacy of a Dales-style racial purity state with the pursuit of immortality through cultural purity. When challenged that cultural purity would be impossible so long as the outside existed, Xil argued that this hypothetical Dales should conquer and eliminate the humans of Thedas to remove the corruptive effect of human culture.

 

Key moral basis being that one immortal who could live merited more than all the humans and elves who might die in the effort.

 

 

Xil's mind-control inclination not only refers to her past advocacy of Control, with the acceptance of using indoctrination on dissidents who did not support her Reaper-galactic order, but also on past encounters on the use of blood magic in the service of a mageocracy. The basic version is that mind control is cool on grounds that it's less bloody than revolts or opposition, so long it's used in service of something Xil likes.

 

If you're going to make claims like this you should actually link sources. I have literally no idea what you are referring to except the Vivienne-Cole conversation which could have been an isolated incident.

 

 

References have been identified.

 

 

Abhorrent in your opinion, maybe you should take a look in the mirror before accusing Xil of not being "mature enough".

 

I think most people would consider mind-control totolitarianism and genocide as abhorrent- especially on Xil's regularly raised, but inconsistently held, standards.

 

 

Everything that you have criticized Xil for supporting I find a lot more grey than you are portraying - certainly you do a disservice to the causes of Solas and the Qunari by portraying the first as a genocide to support a racial minority oligarchy and the second as "mind-controlling police states".

 

 

 

Not referring to them, actually, though Solas's plan is compatible with Xil's past positions on mages and elves.

 

And Solas's plan to burn the world, and usher in the return of magic to everyone who survives, is a fair portrayal of a genocidal gambit- his plan is to replace them, with all that implies. So long as we identify 'mundanes' or 'mages' as population groups, at least.



#561
Boost32

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Funny how you conveneiently forget the templars let the assassin get through in the first place in the hopes of either killing her or making her anti-mage.


How does it dispprove the Divine sending assassins to kill the templars?

#562
thesuperdarkone2

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Hmm...I thought the Templars technically werent under the control of the Divine? My understanding was that the templars were under the control of the Chantry as long as the Circle system existed....Was that not the original agreement that caused the templars to join the chantry?

 

re: Tranquility

The one thing I honestly don't get is _WHY_ the Tranquility issue was such a hot button issue....By Chantry law, a harrowed mage couldn't be subject to tranquility (yes, as a mage inquisitor you can sentence someone to being Tranquil, but legally by Chantry law, this was not legal). The only thing unclear is whether or not there was a time frame by which a mage HAD to take their Harrowing or if it was possible just to remain an apprentice...I'm loath to use Jowan since, well, he's kind of a ******. There's Alrik and he was using Tranquility but Alrik explicitly was hiding his depravities since they were illegal so why was tranquility such a breaking point?

 

I mean, check the wikia if you don't believe me...

The problem with tranquility was that it was only intended to be used as a last resort for dangerous mages and only then against those who hadn't completed their harrowing. The issue was that it became less of a last resort and more of a method for the templars to punish any mages that spoke out against them and even as a way for templars to abuse their power over mages by using tranquility to rape mages. Before you say "Oh, we never saw any abuses of the rite anywhere else", the problem with that is that the lore outright says that the templars were abusing the rite of tranquility against anyone who spoke out against them.

 

The issue with the cure was that if knowledge of the cure was made public, the templars would lose one of their biggest weapons against mages. No longer could the templars threaten mages with essential lobotomization for not towing the line. Now, if a mage was illegally made tranquil, they could be cured instead of being stuck in that state permanently. Thus, the templars losing one of their biggest weapons was the reason they made such a stink about it.



#563
Lumix19

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Of course I can- because as a leader, Fiona should be looking at more than just the reasons to do something, but also the reasons NOT to do something, and the consequences thereof.

 

Even ignorring her complete lack of planning for the rebellion she midwifed, Fiona's accusation of Elthina also misses an important dynamic of Kirkwall's situation- that while Elthinca did not solve the situation, she also helped keep it from getting worse while providing the opportunity for it to get better. Thrask's coup was one such development that, had it worked, might have resolved things. It wouldn't have had the time to try had Meredith had her way far earlier. Even if Elthina didn't have the power or position to remove Meredith once Meredith was in a state to warrant removing, she remained a significant limiter on Meredith's actions (from things as basic as searching quarters to something as great as Annulment).

 

It's also not clear what, exactly, Fiona would have considered an acceptable solution, other than whatever aggrees with her. Seekers did investigate- and found things that were grounds for tolerating the Templars. And the Circle of Kirkwall was corrupt- as high as the Grand Enchanter- with blood mages and maleficar.

 

I don't think her acting as a limiter is missed by Fiona, her criticism is that nothing was resolved, which it wasn't. Elthina never promotes any attempt for it to get better barring her "providing opportunity". She trusts that the Maker will help them see reason. So she's relying on a holding tactic in the hopes that someone will swoop in and get rid of Meredith or Orsino or both, and thus resolve the situation for her?

And Cassandra also notes that the Seekers should have looked at the root causes harder, she indicates that the Seeker investigation wasn't as thorough as it should have been.

 

 

Justinia's outreach by inviting the Mages to convene to discuss reforms was absolutely a good-faith effort: so much so, that she had her own Templars murdered even after Fiona made a major transgression and insult of it. And this was after sanctioning research into resolving one of the greatest cassus belli of the Rebellion, Tranquility- which it's very unlikely the Divine and her recruited mages would have kept secret.
 

Fiona is also responsible for doing her best to ensure that the Divine would lose control, and turning it from a situation in which she had the Divine and a signficant part of the Chantry on her side, to a situation in which she had no one standing between her and the Templars (whom she could not beat).

 

'The situation is bad, so let's make it intolerable' is rarely a winning play... and it wasn't.

I'm not saying it wasn't a good-faith effort. I'm asking how Fiona was supposed to know that? The conclave wasn't to discuss reforms, it was to discuss the implications of Pharamond's research which would hopefully lead to reforms and peace. Promises that as Fiona points out had already been made and had not materialized.

But even if we are to suppose that Fiona did believe that the reforms were going to occur, she clearly doesn't believe that the Templars would ever allow it or go along with their advice on the cure - remember that Lambert had tried desperately to cover up the existence of such a cure even though he knew full well it did exist. Thus whether or not the Divine decided to enact these reforms, in her mind, the templars would never have gone with it, heck they made Pharamond Tranquil right after he was cured.

This is not unsupported, as Cole put: Lambert "made Templars see monsters instead of mages. Made them push until it all fell down." Lambert (supported by Cole's statements) also makes it clear he wants to overthrow the Divine and shift the balance of power, he was more concerned with stopping mages than protecting people. Cassandra makes it clear that the Seekers were already of the mentality where they felt that only they "could solve all the world's problems", and that they would crush problems if they felt coerced. All indicators that the Divine had already lost control. Fiona pushing for independence was her identifying that Lambert was out of control and if they didn't vote then they would never have another chance. And if they had never been allowed to meet there would have been no chance of a successful or organized rebellion.

Whether or not the Divine and the Chantry was on her side was more or less irrelevant, as Lambert points out the Chantry have nothing but words and have preached fear for too long to be able to withdraw from that position. I don't think it was "make it intolerable" so much as "it's now or never".

 

 

Except they totally did- not only when they sold themselves into slavery to Tevinter, but before that when they submitted to Ferelden's authority in return for sanctuary, and before that when the reason Fiona got her majority vote was because she backed the mages into a corner where the only security from the Templars was revolt. The entire mage rebellion was a series of points where fighting the Templars was the more secure prospect than not fighting the Templars.

 

Also, requirement conditions aren't the same as causal conditions. You have to breath in order to write a term paper- breathing is not responsible for you writing the term paper.

How is submitting to Ferelden's authority trading in freedoms? They took sanctuary, they were still allowed to govern themselves and Ferelden didn't ask anything of them as far as I'm aware. Similarly fighting the templars may have been the more secure prospect but it entailed a bunch of freedoms as well, namely the freedom to self-govern. Submitting to the templars would have resulted in many of them executed and others tranquil and living under the laws of the Templars (not even the Chantry who the templars had separated from by then). The only issue is slavery to Tevinter, a point I will concede. But finding any restriction too much and willing to not only die for the cause but to send hundreds of other people, some of them non-combatants or children, to their deaths is not the same thing.

I'm not saying one caused the other. But the mage rebellion set a precedent that indicated that mages want to be independent. And obviously this was noteworthy enough that even Vivienne was willing to allow some mages independence, even if only the ones she respected, and presumably deemed "safe" - note how unprecedented this is!

 

 

The Mage Rebellion was a great expression of mage disatisfaction... which was already identified, and considered legitimate, before the mage rebellion began. Causus belli were already being addressed (Tranquility as an unjust punishment), de-escalation was occuring (restoring the meetings), and reconciliation with an aim of concessions towards the mages were already on the agenda.

By the Chantry and Divine sure. By the templars and Seekers? Not so much. And it seems fairly obvious their goals have been misaligned for quite some time - for example the Seekers investigated Kirkwall and didn't reprimand templars for breaking Chantry law and making Harrowed Mages tranquil? Regardless of "shocking magical corruption" breaking Chantry law is a step in the wrong direction.

 

 

That's not the claim. The claim is that the dissenters who didn't want to go along with the rebellion were being killed.

 

This is manifestly true, by multiple accounts- and even repeats itself later, if/when the rebel mages join the Venatori.

Ah right. I agree then. Though if the Venatori instance you're talking about was from the Dark Future then that never happened.



#564
Boost32

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Ah right. I agree then. Though if the Venatori instance you're talking about was from the Dark Future then that never happened.


No, she is talking about how the mages who didn't want to join the Venatori were killed or fled when the Inquisitor sided with the templars.

#565
Lumix19

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Xil's mind-control inclination not only refers to her past advocacy of Control, with the acceptance of using indoctrination on dissidents who did not support her Reaper-galactic order, but also on past encounters on the use of blood magic in the service of a mageocracy. The basic version is that mind control is cool on grounds that it's less bloody than revolts or opposition, so long it's used in service of something Xil likes.

 

I think most people would consider mind-control totolitarianism and genocide as abhorrent- especially on Xil's regularly raised, but inconsistently held, standards.

 

Not referring to them, actually, though Solas's plan is compatible with Xil's past positions on mages and elves.

 

And Solas's plan to burn the world, and usher in the return of magic to everyone who survives, is a fair portrayal of a genocidal gambit- his plan is to replace them, with all that implies. So long as we identify 'mundanes' or 'mages' as population groups, at least.

Well I don't like genocide so I'll leave it at that. 'Mind control' is different though. Abhorrence of it is always struck me as stemming from some delusion that the mind is more sacred than it actually is. If you could transform someone into the perfect altruist, or prevent war by stopping the thought from even arising that seems like a noble goal to me.

Solas' goal is more nuanced than that though, it's not about "magic for the win!". He identifies the people of Thedas as somewhat broken, not even really people because they are cut of from the Fade. That's a deeply compelling argument and somewhat explains why the people of Thedas are so nasty to each other - they don't suffer the spiritual repercussions that manifest across the Veil.



#566
Lumix19

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No, he is talking about how the mages who didn't want to join the Venatori were killed or fled when the Inquisitor sided with the templars.

Right, I had forgotten that Dorian says that.



#567
Iakus

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Justinia had nice ideas for change but that's all they were, ideas. The reality was that the templars imposed more and more restrictions under her reign...and in some ways, Lambert was even worse than Meredith (mages are no longer allowed to leave the circles etc.), something Vivienne also forgets to mention. But I suspect she wouldn't be as supportive if she hadn't slept her way out of the circle/into nobility. Anyway, it isn't exactly surprising that Fiona and many other mages had apparently lost faith in Justinia. She did absolutely nothing to stop Lambert. If the mages hadn't rebelled it would be like Kirkwall, except, all over southern Thedas.

 

Dorothea (Divine Justinia V) was only elected in 9:34 Dragon.  Before her was Divine Beatrix III, who was a puppet of the Templars, especially later in life when she was suffering from dementia.  THe Templars actually lost influence with Justinia given she was younger, sharper, a better player of the Game, and generally more mage-sympathetic.

 

The more recent restrictions were due largely to Anders blowing up a Grand Cleric (and her chantry) as well as an assassination attempt on her made by a blood mage.   

 

Also, VIvienne did not "sleep her way into the nobility":

"The affair was a matter of intense scandal at the time.  Some who saw Bastien's dalliance with a mage who was all but destined to become first enchanter as a bid to gain access to Circle enchantments, cutting out those nobles who usually managed trade with the mages.  Some objected to a nobleman of Bastien's rank and position associating with mages at all.  Many whispered that Vivienne must be a blood mage to have captivated the duke so completely"

 

WoT vol 2 pages238-239.  

 

It wasn't until Vivienne became court enchanter and had the backing of Celene herself that the attacks stopped.  She gained power and influence despite her relationship with Bastien, not because of it.


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#568
Wulfram

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I don't really see why we need to personalise the debate by bringing up past positions of people in an attempt to discredit them.

No one is standing for office here.
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#569
Silcron

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To answer to the OP

While I like Viv's character I hate how she was presented (not visually mind you). The point being that you never have an option to counterargue her or add something. You can ask, agree and disagree, the latter causing usually a witty retort and her dropping the metaphorical microphone before leaving. I hated that, specially since discussions with her do happen ingame, just in banter. The prime example being the Solas-Viv banter.

#570
Barquiel

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Also, VIvienne did not "sleep her way into the nobility":
"The affair was a matter of intense scandal at the time.  Some who saw Bastien's dalliance with a mage who was all but destined to become first enchanter as a bid to gain access to Circle enchantments, cutting out those nobles who usually managed trade with the mages.  Some objected to a nobleman of Bastien's rank and position associating with mages at all.  Many whispered that Vivienne must be a blood mage to have captivated the duke so completely"
 
WoT vol 2 pages238-239.  
 
It wasn't until Vivienne became court enchanter and had the backing of Celene herself that the attacks stopped.  She gained power and influence despite her relationship with Bastien, not because of it.


Bastien was criticized, Vivienne on the other hand benefited greatly from the affair. The only reason she was allowed to live outside the Circle (and acquire political power outside the circle) was because she slept with the person who was pretty much the leader of the Council of Heralds.

"By the start of the summer, she had a suite of rooms in his house and conducted most of her circle business by correspondence"

How many mages did we meet who are allowed to conduct their circle business by correspondence?

As for the recent restrictions...I know. But I am, and always will be, firmly against the idea of collective punishment (and there was no indication that the punishment will be lifted).

#571
thesuperdarkone2

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Bastien was criticized, Vivienne on the other hand benefited greatly from the affair. The only reason she was allowed to live outside the Circle (and acquire political power outside the circle) was because she slept with the person who was pretty much the leader of the Council of Heralds.

"By the start of the summer, she had a suite of rooms in his house and conducted most of her circle business by correspondence"

How many mages did we meet who are allowed to conduct their circle business by correspondence?

As for the recent restrictions...I know. But I am, and always will be, firmly against the idea of collective punishment (and there was no indication that the punishment will be lifted).


You also forget that it is heavily implied that the Templars intentionally let the assassin get close to justinia in an effort to either kill her or make her anti mage, meaning the Templars manipulated events in order to justify more extreme measures.

#572
Boost32

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Bastien was criticized, Vivienne on the other hand benefited greatly from the affair. The only reason she was allowed to live outside the Circle (and acquire political power outside the circle) was because she slept with the person who was pretty much the leader of the Council of Heralds."By the start of the summer, she had a suite of rooms in his house and conducted most of her circle business by correspondence"How many mages did we meet who are allowed to conduct their circle business by correspondence?As for the recent restrictions...I know. But I am, and always will be, firmly against the idea of collective punishment (and there was no indication that the punishment will be lifted).

As Vivienne said in game, several mages. Before Anders going Osama in the Chantry, every noble family had a mage in their house.

You also forget that it is heavily implied that the Templars intentionally let the assassin get close to justinia in an effort to either kill her or make her anti mage, meaning the Templars manipulated events in order to justify more extreme measures.

Implied by mages. Since they implied it, of course must be true.
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#573
Iakus

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Bastien was criticized, Vivienne on the other hand benefited greatly from the affair. The only reason she was allowed to live outside the Circle (and acquire political power outside the circle) was because she slept with the person who was pretty much the leader of the Council of Heralds.

"By the start of the summer, she had a suite of rooms in his house and conducted most of her circle business by correspondence"

How many mages did we meet who are allowed to conduct their circle business by correspondence?
 

Vivienne suffered allegations of being a blood mage.  Assassins were sent after her!  Bards tried to tear her life apart!

 

The Council of Heralds doesn't have any say in how Circles are governed.  She had a suite because she got the okay from the First Enchanter at the time and was judged not to be a threat to herself or others.



#574
The Baconer

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Implied by mages. Since they implied it, of course must be true.

 

I am genuinely curious as to who was really behind that. Someone must have made arrangements with the security at the event, or maybe it really was just a total fluke?

 

Most likely suspect would be Lambert, but I really don't believe he was prepared to go that far at that point in time. I also think it was outside his mental capabilities.



#575
Dean_the_Young

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I don't really see why we need to personalise the debate by bringing up past positions of people in an attempt to discredit them.
 

 

It's possibly because Xil attempted to bring up past positions in an attempt to discredit the holder. As Vivienne's views are not unique to her, but to many people on the forums, it was also an argument that would discredit other posters who disagreed with Xil.

 

I am quite fine with disagreeing with Xil on a wide variety of topics. I do get annoyed when Xil attempts to claim moral superiority to others.

 

 

 

No one is standing for office here.

 

 

Ironically, Vivienne is.