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[Dean_the_Young]

Well I don't like genocide so I'll leave it at that. 'Mind control' is different though. Abhorrence of it is always struck me as stemming from some delusion that the mind is more sacred than it actually is. If you could transform someone into the perfect altruist, or prevent war by stopping the thought from even arising that seems like a noble goal to me.

 

 

Not the kind of goal being justified, unless you consider Xil's absolute power inherently noble. Think more 'stripping free will and enslaving political dissidents so that they may never challenge my authoritarian utopia.'

 

 

 

Solas' goal is more nuanced than that though, it's not about "magic for the win!". He identifies the people of Thedas as somewhat broken, not even really people because they are cut of from the Fade. That's a deeply compelling argument and somewhat explains why the people of Thedas are so nasty to each other - they don't suffer the spiritual repercussions that manifest across the Veil.

 

 

This is not a compelling argument. It's a demonstration of Solas's anachronistic moral insanity. The people of Thedas are people- and even Solas is capable of recognizing and acknowledging the fact. Nor are the people of Thedas uniquely nasty to eachother- there is nothing that modern Thedas has done to itself that the ancient elves didn't surpass. If anything, they are better- at least in Southern Thedas, slavery is outlawed, mage-tyrants prevented, and mind-controlling blood magic banned.

[Wulfram]

It's possibly because Xil attempted to bring up past positions in an attempt to discredit the holder. As Vivienne's views are not unique to her, but to many people on the forums, it was also an argument that would discredit other posters who disagreed with Xil.
 
I am quite fine with disagreeing with Xil on a wide variety of topics. I do get annoyed when Xil attempts to claim moral superiority to others.

Vivienne's character and morality is part of the topic. If you find it offensive that people find fault with it, that is rather your problem. Its hardly reasonable to suggest that you should refrain from criticising the morality of characters that people agree with, because you can find someone on this board who agrees with everyone

The character of other posters is not part of the topic.
 

Ironically, Vivienne is.

Which is one reason her moral character is actually a relevant topic.

[Barquiel]

Vivienne suffered allegations of being a blood mage.  Assassins were sent after her!  Bards tried to tear her life apart!
 
The Council of Heralds doesn't have any say in how Circles are governed.  She had a suite because she got the okay from the First Enchanter at the time and was judged not to be a threat to herself or others.

She participates in the absurd politics Orleasians do...and makes some enemies. Wow, I'm shocked! If you're playing "the game" that's the price you pay.

That had very little to do with being trustworthy. On the whole the children of nobles who enter the circles have a much better time than everyone else. The former are usually allowed to keep contact with their families, have many privileges and even hand picked Templars to watch over them. On the other hand we hear stories that children from poor families can't even say goodbye to their parents, have basically no rights and no one to stand up for them if Templars start to abuse their power. The Circle was a two tier system with one rule for the nobility and another for everyone else, and Vivienne slept with one of the most powerful and wealthy nobles in Orlais...

[dragonflight288]

She participates in the absurd politics Orleasians do...and makes some enemies. Wow, I'm shocked! If you're playing "the game" that's the price you pay.

That had very little to do with being trustworthy. On the whole the children of nobles who enter the circles have a much better time than everyone else. The former are usually allowed to keep contact with their families, have many privileges and even hand picked Templars to watch over them. On the other hand we hear stories that children from poor families can't even say goodbye to their parents, have basically no rights and no one to stand up for them if Templars start to abuse their power. The Circle was a two tier system with one rule for the nobility and another for everyone else, and Vivienne slept with one of the most powerful and wealthy nobles in Orlais...

Technically that two-tier system exists no matter the system. The political elite ALWAYS feel the rules that apply to everyone else don't necessarily apply to them because...reasons that have to do with a superiority complex mainly.

[MisterJB]

 (as one of the chantry sisters put it: "We wanted the templars to treat mages more fairly and they rebelled for it.").

A very biased, simplistic and misinformed statement made by an incredibly naive woman. This is the same Sister who says that the Chant should never be spread with a sword when Andraste was a warrior and is consistently depicted with a sword.

 

And we must realize this sister, beyond being blantantly pro-mage, has no acess to the information we do.

 

The Divine conduted important experiments behind the Templar's back with the support of Senior Mages, the Grand Enchanter was constantly calling for war, the Resolutionists were attacking public places, Adrian provoked them and finally the Divine sent her personal assassins to murder Templars in support of mages and anarchy.

 

A tad more serious than "wanted them to treat mages fairly". Perhaps it was their rebelion that was legitimate

[Dean_the_Young]

Vivienne's character and morality is part of the topic. If you find it offensive that people find fault with it, that is rather your problem. Its hardly reasonable to suggest that you should refrain from criticising the morality of characters that people agree with, because you can find someone on this board who agrees with everyone

 

I don't suggest refrain from Xilhara criticizing the morality of the character. Nor do I ask that Xilhara agree with me.

 

I only point out- when Xilhara makes an argument that people with immoral views are evil and thus that there is no merit to their positions or character- that we consider what Xilhara's own views have been before she tries to take a position of moral authority.

 

 

The character of other posters is not part of the topic.

 

 

It is when a poster claims certain viewpoints as so evil that they invalidating a person's views of merit or consideration- on viewpoints shared by many other posters.

 

Which is one reason her moral character is actually a relevant topic.

 

 

 

And which is also why Xilhara's own moral character is relevant to the topic when she charges that other people's moral character invalidates their merit for consideration.

[Aren]

She trusts no-one, and if there's one thing we learn in DAI, it's that no-one can be trusted.

 

 

A list of people that i trust in DA

caricare immagini

[Iakus]

She participates in the absurd politics Orleasians do...and makes some enemies. Wow, I'm shocked! If you're playing "the game" that's the price you pay.
 

And this game was for...what, exactly?  She gained nothing of political import with her relationship.  It was her connection with Celene that gained her power and influence.

 

 

That had very little to do with being trustworthy. On the whole the children of nobles who enter the circles have a much better time than everyone else. The former are usually allowed to keep contact with their families, have many privileges and even hand picked Templars to watch over them. On the other hand we hear stories that children from poor families can't even say goodbye to their parents, have basically no rights and no one to stand up for them if Templars start to abuse their power. The Circle was a two tier system with one rule for the nobility and another for everyone else, and Vivienne slept with one of the most powerful and wealthy nobles in Orlais...

And Sera has stories about mage kids taken off the street and put in Circles and were much better off for it.  Everyone has stories.

 

And I suppose Vivienne was horribly abused at Ostwick and Montsimmard and had no rights before she found a duke to beguile?

[Barquiel]

And this game was for...what, exactly?  She gained nothing of political import with her relationship.  It was her connection with Celene that gained her power and influence.
 
And Sera has stories about mage kids taken off the street and put in Circles and were much better off for it.  Everyone has stories.
 
And I suppose Vivienne was horribly abused at Ostwick and Montsimmard and had no rights before she found a duke to beguile?

She got the permission to leave her Circle....or do you think it's a coincidence that the templars decided a few weeks after she became the mistress of Bastien that she is no longer "a threat to herself or others"? And it also helped her becoming court enchanter ("She became the mistress of Duke Bastien de Ghyslain, the head of Orlais' Council of Heralds, an advantageous connection that opened many doors.")

Because Sera of all people knows the inner workings of the Circles...

The point is that mages with noble connections do get a lot of privileges in the Circle. Take for example Bethany. Hawke's wealth and restored noble status is what ensured that Bethany was protected from the sort of abuses and mistreatment that befell a lot of the other mages in Kirkwall, and even gave her some outdoor privileges. And the head of Orlais' council of heralds is a bit more influental than Hawke...

[Lumix19]

A very biased, simplistic and misinformed statement made by an incredibly naive woman. This is the same Sister who says that the Chant should never be spread with a sword when Andraste was a warrior and is consistently depicted with a sword.

And we must realize this sister, beyond being blantantly pro-mage, has no acess to the information we do.

The Divine conduted important experiments behind the Templar's back with the support of Senior Mages, the Grand Enchanter was constantly calling for war, the Resolutionists were attacking public places, Adrian provoked them and finally the Divine sent her personal assassins to murder Templars in support of mages and anarchy.

A tad more serious than "wanted them to treat mages fairly". Perhaps it was their rebelion that was legitimate

That doesn't mean that Andraste wanted to spread the Chant via the sword. She was fighting for slaves to be free, where does it say in the Chant that people who don't sing the Chant should be put to the sword?
Also that's not her only depiction. She's depicted in a variety of ways, note the Masked Andraste of Serault.

Perhaps their rebellion was legitimate. But if it led to the chaos Lambert was supposedly against it kind of undermines his position. And he does himself no favors by positioning himself as power-hungry as well as blindly fanatical.

[Lumix19]

She got the permission to leave her Circle....or do you think it's a coincidence that the templars decided a few weeks after she became the mistress of Bastien that she is no longer "a threat to herself or others"? And it also helped her becoming court enchanter ("She became the mistress of Duke Bastien de Ghyslain, the head of Orlais' Council of Heralds, an advantageous connection that opened many doors.")

Because Sera of all people knows the inner workings of the Circles...

The point is that mages with noble connections do get a lot of privileges in the Circle. Take for example Bethany. Hawke's wealth and restored noble status is what ensured that Bethany was protected from the sort of abuses and mistreatment that befell a lot of the other mages in Kirkwall, and even gave her some outdoor privileges. And the head of Orlais' council of heralds is a bit more influental than Hawke...

Enchanter Illana is another example of what being a noble can do for you as a Circle mage.

[Iakus]

She got the permission to leave her Circle....or do you think it's a coincidence that the templars decided a few weeks after she became the mistress of Bastien that she is no longer "a threat to herself or others"? And it also helped her becoming court enchanter ("She became the mistress of Duke Bastien de Ghyslain, the head of Orlais' Council of Heralds, an advantageous connection that opened many doors.")
 

She already had permission to leave the Circle.  That's how she met Bastien in the first place.

 

And I suspect she became court enchanter more because of her mage abilities.  You know, the stuff that made her First ENchanter at an age young enough to cause scandal?

 

 

 

Because Sera of all people knows the inner workings of the Circles...

The point is that mages with noble connections do get a lot of privileges in the Circle. Take for example Bethany. Hawke's wealth and restored noble status is what ensured that Bethany was protected from the sort of abuses and mistreatment that befell a lot of the other mages in Kirkwall, and even gave her some outdoor privileges. And the head of Orlais' council of heralds is a bit more influental than Hawke..

 

Sera has just as (un)biased a view on mages as anyone else.

 

And just what sort of noble privileges did Wynne have?  Rhys? Finn?  Minaeve?  How about Vivienne herself before meeting Bastien?

[Boost32]

Well Finn is from noble birth.

[Lumix19]

She already had permission to leave the Circle. That's how she met Bastien in the first place.

And I suspect she became court enchanter more because of her mage abilities. You know, the stuff that made her First ENchanter at an age young enough to cause scandal?


Sera has just as (un)biased a view on mages as anyone else.

And just what sort of noble privileges did Wynne have? Rhys? Finn? Minaeve? How about Vivienne herself before meeting Bastien?

I thought she only met Bastien during a special occasion where the mages were being presented? I don't think she was allowed to leave whenever she wanted until after she had made her connection to Bastien.

Neither Wynne nor Rhys have noble connections that I'm aware of so why would they would have noble privileges? And Minaeve doesn't either, she's a former Dalish.

[dragonflight288]

How exactly does allying with the templars remove every corrupt element? As shown by what happens if you side with the templars in a Divine Vivienne playthrough, they are outright rebelling against her because she's a mage, pretty much showing that they are still the same mage-hating a-holes they've always been.

 

Well, it's been argued by several people here on the forums, including myself, that having Vivienne as Divine is a solid first step towards becoming closer to Tevinter by giving a mage so much direct political power in the day to day lives of everyday people. And considering the religious doctrine and teaching, some of which templars have had from childhood being raised as orphans in the Chantry itself, like Alistair was, and it's really not surprising that they would rebel against a mage having direct power over their actions. 

 

As Cassandra said in regards to the Seekers actions as a result of the mages declaring independence, the result was predictable. 

 

What I feel is removing the corrupt elements are this. The people pushing to slaughter or force mages into a situation that is otherwise intolerable have been gutted out as we strike down the leaders with the sword. Then you have Cassandra keeping the more fervent ones in line as a Seeker, especially if she reforms the Seekers with full disclosure of their past actions. 

 

And if we ally with the templars, Ser Barris acts in several war table missions, defending mages from mobs, dealing justly with his charges, and remembering the solemn duty of a templar. Protect the world from dangerous magic, and protect mages from the world. He treats the mages with dignity, respect and as people. Then he can be promoted by the Inquisitor to be the new Knight-Commander. 

 

He is a man who will not be ruled by the mob, knows the full extent of his duty, and deals justly and fairly with all without discrimination. 

 

Between him and Cassandra's reforms, this solves pretty much 90% of my problems with the Circles and rest is just small stuff that likely would and could be handled individually by each Circle. 

 

DA2 pretty much showed the absolute worst of both sides and convinced me that the templars were corrupt at an institutional level as the vast majority of the problems in that game can be linked to or related to templar abuse or seizing unjust authority or outright ignoring the legitimate issues, like Emerick trying to solve the murders (which included a loyal Circle mage) and getting stonewalled by Meredith.  Inquisition had me kill all the templars who were so zealous that they disobeyed even their own superiors to go on a mage killing spree, or were so corrupt that they willfully purged their own ranks of templars who asked questions or doubted the righteousness of their cause. 

 

I feel that there are solid arguments no matter where one's stance was in DA2 to side with either group in Inquisition; I feel that siding with the templars in Inquisition guts out the corrupt heart and forces them to start over and return to their roots and principles.

 

Of course, allying with the templars and then having Vivienne becoming Divine is going to cause conflict because even with strong moral leadership, many templars would still be highly uncomfortable having a mage as the figurative voice of Andraste and head of the faith after centuries of being taught that magic itself is corrupt and being taught about the evils of Tevinter and fearing magic. 

 

But I'll let Vivienne deal with that. She likes the templars, so she can deal with their attitudes towards magic and her if she is Divine. It's part of the job and she wants it, so let her lie in the bed she makes.

 

That's my view on that. 

[Xilizhra]

Why not ensure that the corrupt elements of the templars are eliminated, forever, by siding with the mages?

[Bleachrude]

But being a noble makes a difference OUTSIDE of the circle system anyway...In my headcanon, I think many of the complaints the rebel mages had were exceberated by those mages who were nobles/part of noble families.

 

We know for a fact that if a templar abuses a mage, this SHOULD be against chantry law and said templar's superiors should come down on them yet we know also that at least in orlais and ferelden, nobles have a VERY wide breadth of power (the son of the arl of denerim can walk into an alienage and simply rape a few women and even the chantry mother there trying to stop him is ignored - A "day in court" in awakening shows how much power a noble wields - you can outright kill a deserter, a thief and even a lower ranked noble based on crcumstantial evidence)

 

Similarly, we know that nobles can visit their relatives in a circle but among non-nobles, you have to actually become part of the circle in some way - a templar or a merchnt to the circle but that is more due to medieval life (again, the player character can afford to gallivant across countries but a farmer can't afford to take weeks off from his farm to walk across even his own country - the notion of the week long vacation and taking trips out of town is a MODERN day inotion for the vast majority of people who ever lived - again, yes nobles had access to their summer cottage/castle but the farmer working the land around said castle wasn't afforded the same opportunity.

[Bleachrude]

re: Finn

 

I don't think is noble per se...I always got the impression that his family was VERY upper merchant class since his full name sounds like something a merchant family would do to actually make themselves appear to be "important people".

 

re: Emerick

 

You're using Emerick's stonewalling as an example of "BAD Templar attitudes" even though Emerick is a Templar himself? That makes NO sense.

[dragonflight288]

Why not ensure that the corrupt elements of the templars are eliminated, forever, by siding with the mages?

 

Because there is no guarantee either way. 

 

We may wipe them out, but no matter who is Divine, there is always going to be a group of people who fear magic, and there will always be elements in the Chantry that'll see a need for templars. Even with the mages having independence, there will always be bad eggs. There are some in every group no matter which group it is. 

 

And templars, may not exist as an order, short-term, but there will always be warriors available to learn the talents in the event of abominations or blood mages. 

 

I'm opposed to painting all mages with the same brush, and I'm definitely against collective punishment, but having a few templars in every city helping keep the peace, not only against unsanctioned magic or criminals using magic, but in the day-to-day affairs of helping the guard or even just being a calming presence to the faithful is not a bad idea. 

 

Especially if a power-hungry blood mage decides to to use, say, an abandoned warehouse in Denerim and build a cabal of blood mages and help raise the crime rate and being more than the local guard can handle ever occurs. (Side Quest in Dragon Age Orgins.)

 

Any organization that gets large enough and powerful enough will suffer corrupt elements. Even the Inquisition with a morally just Inquisitor had to deal with it in Trepasser as they had become infested with spies, had a great deal of power and guards that were too big for their britches that they were threatening another country's guards in that country's own palace. 

 

There is no way to stop corruption, but putting in solid checks on authority and power, and ways to balance the the level of power across different people does a pretty good job as a deterrent. 

 

Without a force that can stop magic in its tracks it would be hard to keep a mage organization completely honest or balance the amount of power they can accumulate over time, even if its leaders are and have the best intentions. Get too much power or too many people in it and bureaucracies develop lives of their own.

[Lumix19]

Because there is no guarantee either way.

We may wipe them out, but no matter who is Divine, there is always going to be a group of people who fear magic, and there will always be elements in the Chantry that'll see a need for templars. Even with the mages having independence, there will always be bad eggs. There are some in every group no matter which group it is.

And templars, may not exist as an order, short-term, but there will always be warriors available to learn the talents in the event of abominations or blood mages.

I'm opposed to painting all mages with the same brush, and I'm definitely against collective punishment, but having a few templars in every city helping keep the peace, not only against unsanctioned magic or criminals using magic, but in the day-to-day affairs of helping the guard or even just being a calming presence to the faithful is not a bad idea.

Especially if a power-hungry blood mage decides to to use, say, an abandoned warehouse in Denerim and build a cabal of blood mages and help raise the crime rate and being more than the local guard can handle ever occurs. (Side Quest in Dragon Age Orgins.)

Any organization that gets large enough and powerful enough will suffer corrupt elements. Even the Inquisition with a morally just Inquisitor had to deal with it in Trepasser as they had become infested with spies, had a great deal of power and guards that were too big for their britches that they were threatening another country's guards in that country's own palace.

There is no way to stop corruption, but putting in solid checks on authority and power, and ways to balance the the level of power across different people does a pretty good job as a deterrent.

Without a force that can stop magic in its tracks it would be hard to keep a mage organization completely honest or balance the amount of power they can accumulate over time, even if its leaders are and have the best intentions. Get too much power or too many people in it and bureaucracies develop lives of their own.

That scene where the Inquisition guards threaten the Orlesian ones did give me terrible visions of Envy's Inquisition.

[Boost32]

I thought she only met Bastien during a special occasion where the mages were being presented? I don't think she was allowed to leave whenever she wanted until after she had made her connection to Bastien.
Neither Wynne nor Rhys have noble connections that I'm aware of so why would they would have noble privileges? And Minaeve doesn't either, she's a former Dalish.

She was allowed to go to an Orlesian ball, thats where she met him. They dont send Anders like mage to a ball.

[Xilizhra]

Because there is no guarantee either way. 

 

We may wipe them out, but no matter who is Divine, there is always going to be a group of people who fear magic, and there will always be elements in the Chantry that'll see a need for templars. Even with the mages having independence, there will always be bad eggs. There are some in every group no matter which group it is. 

 

And templars, may not exist as an order, short-term, but there will always be warriors available to learn the talents in the event of abominations or blood mages. 

 

I'm opposed to painting all mages with the same brush, and I'm definitely against collective punishment, but having a few templars in every city helping keep the peace, not only against unsanctioned magic or criminals using magic, but in the day-to-day affairs of helping the guard or even just being a calming presence to the faithful is not a bad idea. 

 

Especially if a power-hungry blood mage decides to to use, say, an abandoned warehouse in Denerim and build a cabal of blood mages and help raise the crime rate and being more than the local guard can handle ever occurs. (Side Quest in Dragon Age Orgins.)

 

Any organization that gets large enough and powerful enough will suffer corrupt elements. Even the Inquisition with a morally just Inquisitor had to deal with it in Trepasser as they had become infested with spies, had a great deal of power and guards that were too big for their britches that they were threatening another country's guards in that country's own palace. 

 

There is no way to stop corruption, but putting in solid checks on authority and power, and ways to balance the the level of power across different people does a pretty good job as a deterrent. 

 

Without a force that can stop magic in its tracks it would be hard to keep a mage organization completely honest or balance the amount of power they can accumulate over time, even if its leaders are and have the best intentions. Get too much power or too many people in it and bureaucracies develop lives of their own.

The templars seem to reject their own abilities, by and large, if you have Cullen around as an example. I think the age of lyrium addicts might be coming to an end. In any case, mages can disable other mages perfectly well, arguably better than templars (certainly it's better in every game thus far).

 

 

That scene where the Inquisition guards threaten the Orlesian ones did give me terrible visions of Envy's Inquisition.

Bah. Orlais is no more legitimate than the Inquisition. The Orlesian guards have been serving the biggest bully on the playground and run into someone who can stand up to them.

[Boost32]

Well, it's been argued by several people here on the forums, including myself, that having Vivienne as Divine is a solid first step towards becoming closer to Tevinter by giving a mage so much direct political power in the day to day lives of everyday people. And considering the religious doctrine and teaching, some of which templars have had from childhood being raised as orphans in the Chantry itself, like Alistair was, and it's really not surprising that they would rebel against a mage having direct power over their actions. 

Lol, in no way she makes the south anything resembling Tevinter. Mages dont have political power in her reign, with her being the sole exception.
The majority of the mages are in the Circle and only a few ex-Inquisition mages are allowed to stay with the College.
She would never use blood magic or entorse slavery, so I call BS on this one.

[Lumix19]

She was allowed to go to an Orlesian ball, thats where she met him. They dont send Anders like mage to a ball.

They send mages to see the Divine, Beatrix III was known for falling asleep when the mages were being presented. I thought she was sent to be presented a long with a cohort of mages. I guess I'll have to talk to her again because I've honestly forgotten what she says but that was the impression I got.

[Boost32]

They send mages to see the Divine, Beatrix III was known for falling asleep when the mages were being presented. I thought she was sent to be presented a long with a cohort of mages. I guess I'll have to talk to her again because I've honestly forgotten what she says but that was the impression I got.

She went to a ball mind she says at the time it was common to mages go to entertain the nobility.