1041 réponses à ce sujet

[Drasanil]

Why not ensure that the corrupt elements of the templars mages are eliminated, forever, by siding with the mages templars?

 

[Boost32]

I did it.

[Xilizhra]

 

Because mages will always be with us, but templars are made by men, and they can be unmade.

[Jaison1986]

Because there is no guarantee either way. 

 

We may wipe them out, but no matter who is Divine, there is always going to be a group of people who fear magic, and there will always be elements in the Chantry that'll see a need for templars. Even with the mages having independence, there will always be bad eggs. There are some in every group no matter which group it is. 

 

And templars, may not exist as an order, short-term, but there will always be warriors available to learn the talents in the event of abominations or blood mages. 

 

I'm opposed to painting all mages with the same brush, and I'm definitely against collective punishment, but having a few templars in every city helping keep the peace, not only against unsanctioned magic or criminals using magic, but in the day-to-day affairs of helping the guard or even just being a calming presence to the faithful is not a bad idea. 

 

Especially if a power-hungry blood mage decides to to use, say, an abandoned warehouse in Denerim and build a cabal of blood mages and help raise the crime rate and being more than the local guard can handle ever occurs. (Side Quest in Dragon Age Orgins.)

 

Any organization that gets large enough and powerful enough will suffer corrupt elements. Even the Inquisition with a morally just Inquisitor had to deal with it in Trepasser as they had become infested with spies, had a great deal of power and guards that were too big for their britches that they were threatening another country's guards in that country's own palace. 

 

There is no way to stop corruption, but putting in solid checks on authority and power, and ways to balance the the level of power across different people does a pretty good job as a deterrent. 

 

Without a force that can stop magic in its tracks it would be hard to keep a mage organization completely honest or balance the amount of power they can accumulate over time, even if its leaders are and have the best intentions. Get too much power or too many people in it and bureaucracies develop lives of their own.

 

That kind of idealism will never work with someone as Vivienne on the throne. You would have more luck with Cassandra as Divine. Vivienne cares nothing about the improvements you try to push for. So long as the mages bow their heads, accept their fates and do evertything the templars tell them, she wouldn't care a fig about change. To her, keeping the old system exactly the way it was is more then enough to keep things stable. It's irrelevant if people suffer. The status quo comes first.

[Boost32]

Because mages will always be with us, but templars are made by men, and they can be unmade.

I unmade a lot of corrupt mages.

[theflyingzamboni]

She was always a good character, but she's still a person with some absolutely abhorrent views.

[Xilizhra]

I unmade a lot of corrupt mages.

I was referring to the Order.

[Boost32]

I was referring to the Order.

I know, and I was referring to corrupt mages.

[Lumix19]

Lol, in no way she makes the south anything resembling Tevinter. Mages dont have political power in her reign, with her being the sole exception.
The majority of the mages are in the Circle and only a few ex-Inquisition mages are allowed to stay with the College.
She would never use blood magic or entorse slavery, so I call BS on this one.

Her mentality encourages only mages who are political, good at the Game and share her belief in "survival over sentimentality" to take top positions within the Circle and even the position of Divine itself.

[Xilizhra]

I know, and I was referring to corrupt mages.

My point is that you can't destroy all mages, nor can you destroy all corrupt mages, but you can destroy the Templar Order.

[Boost32]

Her mentality encourages only mages who are political, good at the Game and share her belief in "survival over sentimentality" to take top positions within the Circle and even the position of Divine itself.

Citation needed.

My point is that you can't destroy all mages, nor can you destroy all corrupt mages, but you can destroy the Templar Order.

And my pont is sinceI I unmade a lot of corrupt mages, the Circle can begin again without their poisonous influence.

[Drasanil]

Because mages will always be with us, but templars are made by men, and they can be unmade.

 

Ever heard of can't kill an idea? That's basically what templars are, so long as mages exist, the idea of counter-balancing them will exist. One does not need to be part of the Order™ to be a templar, you just need a man, or woman, and some Lyrium with a bit of training or trial and error and off you go. 

[Xilizhra]

Ever heard of can't kill an idea? That's basically what templars are, so long as mages exist, the idea of counter-balancing them will exist. One does not need to be part of the Order™ to be a templar, you just need a man, or woman, and some Lyrium with a bit of training or trial and error and off you go. 

Mages can counter other mages perfectly well; templars are unnecessary.

[sniper_arrow]

My point is that you can't destroy all mages, nor can you destroy all corrupt mages, but you can destroy the Templar Order.

 

Even if you destroy the Templar order, there will always be others who will take up the mantle to protect the non-mages from dangerous magic. As mentioned by Drasanil, you can't kill an idea.  

[Drasanil]

Mages can counter other mages perfectly well; templars are unnecessary.

 

Normal people don't trust mages to counter other mages "perfectly well" that's why templars existed in the first place. 

[Hazegurl]

Ever heard of can't kill an idea? That's basically what templars are, so long as mages exist, the idea of counter-balancing them will exist. One does not need to be part of the Order™ to be a templar, you just need a man, or woman, and some Lyrium with a bit of training or trial and error and off you go. 

Pretty much this.  Everyone knows what Templars are, what they do, and what they need.  All it takes is for a corrupt Mage to kill someone's family to create a Templar or two. 

 

And then there is the vigilantly justice the mages almost faced in Asunder.  Which a Templar was needed to keep their a**es from getting strung up somewhere.

[Xilizhra]

Even if you destroy the Templar order, there will always be others who will take up the mantle to protect the non-mages from dangerous magic. As mentioned by Drasanil, you can't kill an idea.  

What, vigilante killers with enough money to pay lyrium smugglers? They might be a threat, but not nearly on the Order's level.

[Drasanil]

What, vigilante killers with enough money to pay lyrium smugglers? They might be a threat, but not nearly on the Order's level.

 

How about national governments deciding they want specialists in charge to hold the newly liberated mages' leashes? A class of people with super powers are basically a threat on a fundamental level to any entrenched aristocracy, and guess who happens to rule most of Thedas? I'll give you a hint it's not republican social democrats. 

[dragonflight288]

 

Xilizhra wrote....

The templars seem to reject their own abilities, by and large, if you have Cullen around as an example. I think the age of lyrium addicts might be coming to an end. In any case, mages can disable other mages perfectly well, arguably better than templars (certainly it's better in every game thus far).

 

Totally true, but let's bring up a hypothetical scenario. 

 

Imagine the College of Enchanters 200 years after the events of Inquisition have taken over as the dominant institution for teaching mages magic in Southern Thedas, and have established an elite force of spirit magic users whose task is to bring rogue mages in to justice when they break the law or engage in banditry. 

 

You have a college in Orlais and there is evidence of magical abuse going on in the local marketplace so the College sends a team. But the leader of the team is a member of a noble family and is a frequent visitor of the court and regularly plays the game. He builds up his reputation and pedigree as someone who is skilled in tracking down and defeating "criminal" mages. 

 

At what level of trust do we have that this man or woman is not creating scenarios to engage in self-promotion or may even have set up the crime in the first place as a player of the Game?

 

And then imagine if the leadership of the College started engaging in questionable practices, but they lead the investigators?

 

It ultimately reminds me of Atris and the Handmaidens in KOTOR2. We would slowly be building a pazaak pyramid with a weak foundation, which is what we will ultimately get with any powerful institution where the watchers are governed by the watched. 

 

Which leads us to...."Who watches the Watchmen?" 

 

 

Lol, in no way she makes the south anything resembling Tevinter. Mages dont have political power in her reign, with her being the sole exception.
The majority of the mages are in the Circle and only a few ex-Inquisition mages are allowed to stay with the College.
She would never use blood magic or entorse slavery, so I call BS on this one.

 

And I quote both Fenris AND Dorian in how Tevinter very much resembled Southern Thedas at one time, and slowly, inch by inch, political battle after political battle, slowly but cut off the power of the templars there, then cut off their lyrium supply and thus access to their abilities, then built up political power, and end result is they are no different than they were in ancient days. 

 

Vivienne certainly wouldn't allow Orlais, Nevarra or Ferelden to become like Tevinter. But having a mage as Divine sets a unique precedent in the White Chantry. And then the Divine after her may be a mage who doesn't share her convictions. Or you get a few mage Grand Clerics who are utterly sympathetic to mages and not necessarily the Circle system. And then possibly may question the need for those restrictions in the first place. 

 

It's the first step of what would likely be a long and slow transformation. Plenty of time to turn back, but those who listened to Fenris and Dorian recognize danger there. 

[Hazegurl]

What, vigilante killers with enough money to pay lyrium smugglers? They might be a threat, but not nearly on the Order's level.

So you think an angry mob is safer than an organization with rules and regulations?

[Ryzaki]

She went to a ball mind she says at the time it was common to mages go to entertain the nobility.

 

Isn't that how Hawke's parents met? I remember Lenadra mentioning that's how she met Malcolm.

[Xilizhra]

How about national governments deciding they want specialists in charge to hold the newly liberated mages' leashes? A class of people with super powers are basically a threat on a fundamental level to any entrenched aristocracy, and guess who happens to rule most of Thedas? I'll give you a hint it's not republican social democrats. 

Well, then I suppose they'll have to negotiate around the Chantry's lyrium monopoly. If this was a realistic possibility, one would think it'd be mentioned in Trespasser.

[sniper_arrow]

What, vigilante killers with enough money to pay lyrium smugglers? They might be a threat, but not nearly on the Order's level.

 

Mages are a threat if not properly supervised (and not on a Meredith level). For a better term, they are walking nuclear bombs.

 

It's one thing to have magic, it's another to have the will to cause chaos and bending everyone's wills to serve them.

[dragonflight288]

That kind of idealism will never work with someone as Vivienne on the throne. You would have more luck with Cassandra as Divine. Vivienne cares nothing about the improvements you try to push for. So long as the mages bow their heads, accept their fates and do evertything the templars tell them, she wouldn't care a fig about change. To her, keeping the old system exactly the way it was is more then enough to keep things stable. It's irrelevant if people suffer. The status quo comes first.

 

It's a good thing I have Cassandra as Divine then. 

[Drasanil]

Well, then I suppose they'll have to negotiate around the Chantry's lyrium monopoly. If this was a realistic possibility, one would think it'd be mentioned in Trespasser.

 

No they won't, because the only way the Chantry can reliably enforce it's Lyrium monopoly is through those very same governments and the local authorities.

 

As for Tresspasser, it's only be two years out and the Inquisition is still at full strength [until the very end of the DLC] and presumably still, whether you picked mages or templars, fulfilling the oversight role it appropriated for itself during the crisis.