Who says the Chantry can't create a new, lyriumless Templar Order for purely military purposes?
Because templars without lyrium don't have templar powers?
Seekers have different abilities than templars, rooted in the rite of tranquility and its cure, and I suspect Cassandra only has them for gameplay purposes.
Because templars without lyrium don't have templar powers?
Seekers have different abilities than templars, rooted in the rite of tranquility and its cure, and I suspect Cassandra only has them for gameplay purposes.
Give it another name, if need be?
Give it another name, if need be?
*shrug*
Because templars without lyrium don't have templar powers?
Seekers have different abilities than templars, rooted in the rite of tranquility and its cure, and I suspect Cassandra only has them for gameplay purposes.
By that logic you should never tell Cullen to get off lyrium. After all, if you do, they get off lyrium and this don't have magic nullifying abilities anymore.
I think fighting the addiction of lyrium and overcoming it is a worthy goal.
I mean, lyrium provides a lot of benefits for the immediate use of combating magic, but it has a LOT of detrimental side effects. Some of which is dementia, paranoia, agony, and possibly even madness or death, all as a result of lyrium withdrawal.
Templars have to sacrifice a lot to get their abilities. A good and honest templar is someone to respect and honor, not only for the moral clarity like Ser Barris shows but also for the sacrifice that comes with it.
But if a templar wishes to leave the order, fight the addiction and become their own person without needing to rely on a lyrium provider or smuggler, then I think they deserve full support.
Cullen reminds me of a good-intentioned druggy who wants to overcome his addiction and needs the support of friends nearby to keep him from falling back into the habit. He stopped taking lyrium because he left the templar order, and that's a decision worthy of honoring and respecting.
On the other side, the very lyrium withdrawal they suffer can be a very, very powerful punishment for templars who abuse their authority. Lock them up and deny them lyrium and it will be agony to them.
How do you suspect they are?
You blame the entire Templar order for abuses heaped upon innocent mages. And I believe that, for the most part, the Templars are decent men and women trying to do their job without growing too attached to the people they are charged with watching (as they may be forced to kill them should they become possessed).
I have no illusions that there are those who have let power go to their heads, who have dehumanized their mage charges to the point where they feel they can do whatever they wish to them. And I believe the Templar leadership have grown too permissive in allowing this sort of behavior. They have forgotten that it wasn't the magic of the magisters that caused the Maker to abandon Thedas, but the pride and wickedness in their hearts. I'd redeem the order, make it what it was meant to be, an organization meant to protect mages.
In addition, I have far more sympathy for mages like Minaeve who went out of her way to protect the Tranquil in her care, or for Ellandra who simply wants to be left alone, than mages who would turn on their own for "the cause"
A successor does appear: The SIlver Shield.
The Silver Shield appears if you don't disband the order, which makes absorbing the Templars into the Inquisition preferable in this instance.
You blame the entire Templar order for abuses heaped upon innocent mages. And I believe that, for the most part, the Templars are decent men and women trying to do their job without growing too attached to the people they are charged with watching (as they may be forced to kill them should they become possessed).
I have no illusions that there are those who have let power go to their heads, who have dehumanized their mage charges to the point where they feel they can do whatever they wish to them. And I believe the Templar leadership have grown too permissive in allowing this sort of behavior. They have forgotten that it wasn't the magic of the magisters that caused the Maker to abandon Thedas, but the pride and wickedness in their hearts. I'd redeem the order, make it what it was meant to be, an organization meant to protect mages.
In addition, I have far more sympathy for mages like Minaeve who went out of her way to protect the Tranquil in her care, or for Ellandra who simply wants to be left alone, than mages who would turn on their own for "the cause"
Actually, the character of the Templar Order doesn't really make much of a difference as to why I play In Hushed Whispers: all templars are combatants, while many of the mages are not, and I prioritize protecting noncombatants over combatants.
The Silver Shield appears if you don't disband the order, which makes absorbing the Templars into the Inquisition preferable in this instance.
Except the Inquisition is severely downsized or outright disbanded in the dlc. Where do you think all those conscripted templars are going to go? Even more reason why I side with the mages.
Who says the Chantry can't create a new, lyriumless Templar Order for purely military purposes?
And who says anyone would let them? The Chantry could have a standing army in the form of templars because they served a purpose, namely policing mages. Why would any nation let the Chantry create a new order whose sole purpose was to challenge their authority and sovereignty? Last I checked, that's pretty much why Ferelden was looking for the Inquisition to be disbanded, while Orlais was looking to put a leash on it for those same reasons.
Actually, the character of the Templar Order doesn't really make much of a difference as to why I play In Hushed Whispers: all templars are combatants, while many of the mages are not, and I prioritize protecting noncombatants over combatants.
That actually makes a lot of sense. In fact, it's just the kind of logical, utilitarian decision that Vivienne might make... 
And who says anyone would let them? The Chantry could have a standing army in the form of templars because they served a purpose, namely policing mages. Why would any nation let the Chantry create a new order whose sole purpose was to challenge their authority and sovereignty? Last I checked, that's pretty much why Ferelden was looking for the Inquisition to be disbanded, while Orlais was looking to put a leash on it for those same reasons.
It doesn't have to be to challenge the authority of other nations,
It doesn't, but in Xil's scenario which I was responding to that was its exact purpose.
It doesn't, but in Xil's scenario which I was responding to that was its exact purpose.
I honestly don't understand why the other nations won't create their own templar forces.
Seriously, Tevinter STILL exists and furthermore, the quanari are integrating their mages into their attack forces now. Hell, as per inquisition, the quanari are actually incorporating templars AND mages into their fighting forces.
How exactly does Neverra or Kirkwall actually deal with either of those two forces WITHOUT their own templars? They don't have their own mages and the chantry has no templars so I do wonder how the Chantry actually does anything. Remember, in previous exalted marches against Tevinter and the Quanari, the templars would've been at the forefront of the fighting and given that the chantry was considered independent, as a rapid reaction force of highly trained knights,they could respond much, much faster than any other nation.
If say Antiva is attacked, in a post Inquisition world, the Divine has to wait upon the other nations to marshal forces, worse, there's a very good chance many of them will ignore/procastinate at said call for action (I doubt Fereldens for example are going to send their sons/daughters to fight in Antiva quickly)...the Chantry can't quickly respond since it has no army anymore.
re: Corruption
Why would the college of enchanters be LESS susceptible to corruption than the previous system? In the previous system, there were two sets of oversight possible - the seekers and the chantry. The college has no-one yet it is going to be LESS corrupt? That makes no sense and has never been true in human history....
I honestly don't understand why the other nations won't create their own templar forces.
Seriously, Tevinter STILL exists and furthermore, the quanari are integrating their mages into their attack forces now. Hell, as per inquisition, the quanari are actually incorporating templars AND mages into their fighting forces.
How exactly does Neverra or Kirkwall actually deal with either of those two forces WITHOUT their own templars? They don't have their own mages and the chantry has no templars so I do wonder how the Chantry actually does anything. Remember, in previous exalted marches against Tevinter and the Quanari, the templars would've been at the forefront of the fighting and given that the chantry was considered independent, as a rapid reaction force of highly trained knights,they could respond much, much faster than any other nation.
If say Antiva is attacked, in a post Inquisition world, the Divine has to wait upon the other nations to marshal forces, worse, there's a very good chance many of them will ignore/procastinate at said call for action (I doubt Fereldens for example are going to send their sons/daughters to fight in Antiva quickly)...the Chantry can't quickly respond since it has no army anymore.
re: Corruption
Why would the college of enchanters be LESS susceptible to corruption than the previous system? In the previous system, there were two sets of oversight possible - the seekers and the chantry. The college has no-one yet it is going to be LESS corrupt? That makes no sense and has never been true in human history....
Yep, we can have mages abusing other mages just as easily as we can have templars abusing mages
Oh, wait, we do have that...in Tevinter!
I think this is the only example we need to illustrate the dangers of self-policing. It's the basic conflict of interests at work.
Who says the Chantry can't create a new, lyriumless Templar Order for purely military purposes?
That would be a bad idea. The Templars would basically be for show...like they are in Tevinter. I don't see why Templars would have to be destroyed just so Mages can have their freedom. Wouldn't it be better to simply keep the Templars as a Mage police force? Wait, you believe mages should completely police themselves....like in Tevinter.
I like Cullen's idea of mixed Templar & Mage military/policing service. I think it would reduce distrust between Templars and Mages and both sides can bring their perceptive when protecting everyone from the dangers of Magic and the Fade. But I think they have to be equals and it should be a responsive service to deal with abuses of magic or demons. I didn't like the Templar's role before the rebellion; constantly watching Mages like jailers.
That would be a bad idea. The Templars would basically be for show...like they are in Tevinter. I don't see why Templars would have to be destroyed just so Mages can have their freedom. Wouldn't it be better to simply keep the Templars as a Mage police force? Wait, you believe mages should completely police themselves....like in Tevinter.
Right, I still like the idea of Circles becoming schools where Mages and non Mages can attend to relieve the distrust between the groups for the next generation. I think mages should be free and Templars should be restructured into a police force. Though I do like the idea of a joint Mage/Templar force.
Southern Thedas isn't Tevinter, there's a bunch of nuance your missing there.
Not really, They were both apart of the same chantry once but Mages gained power and freedom, put a Mage on the Sunburst Throne, weakened their Templar order and began "policing" themselves. They obviously didn't do a very good job of it.
I love Vivienne on the Throne, because I don't have an issue with Mages being elected Divine or being a part of the Chantry, and I see it as a first true step to Mages gaining real freedom and power in Southern Thedas. But she's also smart enough to keep the Templars and have mages gain power reasonably and realistically. IMO, which will create a much more stable political environment as it shifts to include mages. Leliana is just short term Yolo freedom and Cass seems to be the same old same old.
Well first Antiva has no standing army so that won't happen. And Nevarra has their own nationalised mages in the form of the Mortalitasi. Similarly Rivain has the its Seers. The only people who might nationalise are Orlais (who shares too close a connection to the Chantry to do so), Ferelden, and the Free Marches (whose city-states are to fractured to put any credible threat to the Divine's will). And the Chantry, specifically Divine Victoria, can have an army in the form of the incorporated Inquisition, or possibly set one up if it was disbanded. Allowing mages or nations access to their own lyrium is a situation that is far too unstable for a Southern Thedas that is still reeling from Corypheus and the Qunari and faced with the threat of Solas. So mages or nations that attain lyrium would bring Chantry censure (don't underestimate such censure in Thedas, recall the a united Chantry was able to halt much of the Inquisition's work early on despite lacking a Divine or even a truly coordinated response - it's an organisation for whom many bear great love), the attention of Victoria's peacekeeping force as well as Victoria's assassins (in the case of Leliana).
I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm referring to what if Antiva is attacked by Tevinter and/or Quanari. Look at the map of Thedas and Antica is literally next door to Tevinter and has a huge exposed coastline for the quanari to establsih a foothold. Pre-Inquisition, if Antiva was attacked by Tevinter, the Chantry didn't have to wait on the other nations to martial their forces which would take time...it had its own army to quickly respond to the situation...hell, it probably was easier for the Chantry to get its own templars from even as far as Ferelden than to get the squabbling Marcher city states to send troops.
I actually believe the Chantry is much, MUCH weaker than before. When the Chantry before said "mages can not be used as weapons in war", it had an army to back up any nation that disagreed with it. If Neverra for example starts using its mages in its wars (and it borders Tevinter and Orlais and is currently on an expansionistic drive and could be argued to NEED mages for its own protection), what exactly can the Chantry do now? Censure?
Sure and just like Henry the VIII Neverra will tell the Divine to bugger off
Dude you don't understand, it will never happen. The power of rainbows and unicorns will prevent it, as it will prevent the rise of corrupt mages or linch mobs against mages.I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm referring to what if Antiva is attacked by Tevinter and/or Quanari. Look at the map of Thedas and Antica is literally next door to Tevinter and has a huge exposed coastline for the quanari to establsih a foothold. Pre-Inquisition, if Antiva was attacked by Tevinter, the Chantry didn't have to wait on the other nations to martial their forces which would take time...it had its own army to quickly respond to the situation...hell, it probably was easier for the Chantry to get its own templars from even as far as Ferelden than to get the squabbling Marcher city states to send troops.
I actually believe the Chantry is much, MUCH weaker than before. When the Chantry before said "mages can not be used as weapons in war", it had an army to back up any nation that disagreed with it. If Neverra for example starts using its mages in its wars (and it borders Tevinter and Orlais and is currently on an expansionistic drive and could be argued to NEED mages for its own protection), what exactly can the Chantry do now? Censure?
Sure and just like Henry the VIII Neverra will tell the Divine to bugger off
I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm referring to what if Antiva is attacked by Tevinter and/or Quanari. Look at the map of Thedas and Antica is literally next door to Tevinter and has a huge exposed coastline for the quanari to establsih a foothold. Pre-Inquisition, if Antiva was attacked by Tevinter, the Chantry didn't have to wait on the other nations to martial their forces which would take time...it had its own army to quickly respond to the situation...hell, it probably was easier for the Chantry to get its own templars from even as far as Ferelden than to get the squabbling Marcher city states to send troops.
I actually believe the Chantry is much, MUCH weaker than before. When the Chantry before said "mages can not be used as weapons in war", it had an army to back up any nation that disagreed with it. If Neverra for example starts using its mages in its wars (and it borders Tevinter and Orlais and is currently on an expansionistic drive and could be argued to NEED mages for its own protection), what exactly can the Chantry do now? Censure?
Sure and just like Henry the VIII Neverra will tell the Divine to bugger off
I like Cullen's idea of mixed Templar & Mage military/policing service. I think it would reduce distrust between Templars and Mages and both sides can bring their perceptive when protecting everyone from the dangers of Magic and the Fade. But I think they have to be equals and it should be a responsive service to deal with abuses of magic or demons. I didn't like the Templar's role before the rebellion; constantly watching Mages like jailers.
"One of us, one of them" like in Heroes, eh? 
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