1041 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

^Just got through rewatching Season 1 about a week ago. Still a great as show as ever, provided we ignore everything that comes afterwards.

[Barquiel]

She already had permission to leave the Circle.  That's how she met Bastien in the first place.

 

And I suspect she became court enchanter more because of her mage abilities.  You know, the stuff that made her First ENchanter at an age young enough to cause scandal?

 

 

Sera has just as (un)biased a view on mages as anyone else.

 

And just what sort of noble privileges did Wynne have?  Rhys? Finn?  Minaeve?  How about Vivienne herself before meeting Bastien?

 

We do know that Vivienne lived in a circle before she met Bastien. As others have already said, she met Bastien because the circles had sent several mages to entertain some nobles at a party. The privilege to come and go as she pleases (without templar supervision) was granted a few weeks after she had started her affair with Bastien. Pure coincidence, I'm sure...

Vivienne got the job because she knew the right people (thanks to Bastien) and was politically savvy, that's how positions at court are usually filled. This is also one of the reasons why she resents Morrigan...Unlike Vivienne, Morrigan didn't have to play "the game" to get inside the palace. Vivienne and Cole discuss this.

Your point? Sera doesn't even refute that mages with noble connections have a better life and more privileges than the rest.

Only Wynee had similar privileges as Vivienne, and Asunder makes it clear that she is a special case. Rhys didn't have any special privileges, and he certainly wasn't allowed to live outside the circle. What special privileges did Minaeve have in your opinion? Finn's parents are lesser nobles from the Bannorn, which allows them (surprise, surpise)...the privilege of frequent visits and sending of gifts. But he wasn't allowed to live outside the circle either.

[Iakus]

We do know that Vivienne lived in a circle before she met Bastien. As others have already said, she met Bastien because the circles had sent several mages to entertain some nobles at a party. The privilege to come and go as she pleases (without templar supervision) was granted a few weeks after she had started her affair with Bastien. Pure coincidence, I'm sure...
 

So, Bastien slept in Vivienne's quarters before she got permission to leave?

 

 

 

Vivienne got the job because she knew the right people (thanks to Bastien) and was politically savvy, that's how positions at court are usually filled. This is also one of the reasons why she resents Morrigan...Unlike Vivienne, Morrigan didn't have to play "the game" to get inside the palace. Vivienne and Cole discuss this.

 

And the Circle had no say in which mage got to be the court enchanter?

 

 

 

Your point? Sera doesn't even refute that mages with noble connections have a better life and more privileges than the rest.
 

Anyone with noble connection tend to have a better life an more privileges than the rest.  But it does show that poor commoner mages aren't doomed to a life of pain and abuse.  I can actually be a big step up from the life they had.

 

 

Only Wynee had similar privileges as Vivienne, and Asunder makes it clear that she is a special case. Rhys didn't have any special privileges, and he certainly wasn't allowed to live outside the circle. What special privileges did Minaeve have in your opinion? Finn's parents are lesser nobles from the Bannorn, which allows them (surprise, surpise)...the privilege of frequent visits and sending of gifts. But he wasn't allowed to live outside the circle either.

 

Prior to Anders' church-bombing, Rhys was allowed out of the Circle.

 

Minaeve didn't seem to have any 'special" privileges.  But she liked being in the Circle and did not appear to be abused ("not being abused" shouldn't be considered a special privilege, btw)  Is Finn noble?  His family is well-to-do, yes.  But do they have a title or anything?  ANd FInn didn't want to leave.  He had to be ordered to go with the Waden.

 

For that matter, how does being noble get you special perks?  The Templars ran Kirkwall in all but name, and even the Viscount couldn't oppose Meredith.  But because Bethany was a scion of a noble family that virtually vanished from Kirkwall more than twenty years ago (and was an apostate to boot), she gets special treatment?  Where's the logic in that?

[MisterJB]

Who says the Chantry can't create a new, lyriumless Templar Order for purely military purposes?

So, your suggestion is that there be a College which regulares all mage activity.
If nations object to this and try to create their own Templar forces, the Chantry should raise armies ready to fight and kill the people of Thedas to prevent this and mantain a monopoly in Lyrium which will be provided exclusively to mages ultimately so that the nations of Thedas and their concerns are silenced over the "rights" of mages.
...

You know I feel like Batman talking to the Joker in "The Killing Joke".

[Xilizhra]

So, your suggestion is that there be a College which regulares all mage activity.
If nations object to this and try to create their own Templar forces, the Chantry should raise armies ready to fight and kill the people of Thedas to prevent this and mantain a monopoly in Lyrium which will be provided exclusively to mages ultimately so that the nations of Thedas and their concerns are silenced over the "rights" of mages.
...

You know I feel like Batman talking to the Joker in "The Killing Joke".

Really? I thought you'd prefer it to the College controlling both an army and the lyrium trade directly. However, the point of this is to ensure the continued neutrality of mages, so that no specific nation can somehow take control of the College and use it to crush everyone else.

 

Of course, if the Inquisition is placed under Leliana's control, it can do all this itself.

[Iakus]

^Just got through rewatching Season 1 about a week ago. Still a great as show as ever, provided we ignore everything that comes afterwards.

Complete with people who can't control their powers, or who misuse them and need to be stopped by...somebody 

 

So, your suggestion is that there be a College which regulares all mage activity.
If nations object to this and try to create their own Templar forces, the Chantry should raise armies ready to fight and kill the people of Thedas to prevent this and mantain a monopoly in Lyrium which will be provided exclusively to mages ultimately so that the nations of Thedas and their concerns are silenced over the "rights" of mages.
...

You know I feel like Batman talking to the Joker in "The Killing Joke".

 

 If the Chantry has neither a Circle nor a Templar order, they have no justification for a lyrium monopoly.

 

Therefore, let the College buy their own damn lyrium.  And let the nations buy lyrium to form their own individual mage-hunting units just in case a mage tries to blow up a chantry or sets fire to a farm or something.

[Xilizhra]

If the Chantry has neither a Circle nor a Templar order, they have no justification for a lyrium monopoly.

 

Therefore, let the College buy their own damn lyrium.  And let the nations buy lyrium to form their own individual mage-hunting units just in case a mage tries to blow up a chantry or sets fire to a farm or something.

The College probably doesn't have enough clout to enforce its contract at first, which is why I believe it should work with the Chantry. I could tolerate the existence of lyrium-using guards used by other nations if they could never exist in numbers enough to militarily threaten the College.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I finally completed Trespasser last night. I'm not sure I even understood the ending for Vivienne. Either ending's referencing the Collage of Enchanters sort of sounds like it's a "Choosing the Mages" related choice. I got an ending where "The Inquisition's veteran mages" became a rival to her Circle, but who would they be and why wouldn't they join the Circle? Fiona's Mage Rebellion was a failure in that playthrough because I'd allied with the Templars.

[Bleachrude]

The College probably doesn't have enough clout to enforce its contract at first, which is why I believe it should work with the Chantry. I could tolerate the existence of lyrium-using guards used by other nations if they could never exist in numbers enough to militarily threaten the College.

 

Xilizhra, why are you constantly ignoring BOTh Tevinter and the quanari?

 

Every nation in Thedas other than Ferelden is either next door to Tevinter (who by and large, STILL believe they should rule all of Thedas) or the Quanari (who unlike the Chantry have the will to actually convert everyone by sword if need to).

 

What exactly do you propose that Neverra do?

[Iakus]

The College probably doesn't have enough clout to enforce its contract at first, which is why I believe it should work with the Chantry.

So wait, you want them to be totally separate from the Chantry and it's authority, but you want the Chantry to prop them up along with taking care of their own Circle of Magi?  

 

 

I could tolerate the existence of lyrium-using guards used by other nations if they could never exist in numbers enough to militarily threaten the College.

How gracious of you.  

 

 

I finally completed Trespasser last night. I'm not sure I even understood the ending for Vivienne. Either ending referencing the Collage of Enchanters sort of sounds like it's a "Choosing the Mages" related choice. I got an ending where "The Inquisition's veteran mages" became a rival to her Circle, but who would they be and why wouldn't they join the Circle? Fiona's Mage Rebellion was a failure in that playthrough because I'd allied with the Templars.

THere aren't just Fiona's mages out there.  There were survivors at the Conclave.  There are also War Table missions to rescue former Circle mages holding out against Venatori forces, angry mobs, and such.  Plus you can find and recruit mages as agents of the Inquisition.

 

In addition you also have the liklihood of apostates being recruited into the Inquisition.  Either volunteering on their own (like Solas supposedly did) , or part of a mercenary company (like Dalish) 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I know the Inquisition had mages even at the start, but they were much fewer without the Mage Rebels added to their number and without Fiona there was no hint that they would have refused to join Cassandra's reformed Circle. 

[Hazegurl]

I finally completed Trespasser last night. I'm not sure I even understood the ending for Vivienne. Either ending's referencing the Collage of Enchanters sort of sounds like it's a "Choosing the Mages" related choice. I got an ending where "The Inquisition's veteran mages" became a rival to her Circle, but who would they be and why wouldn't they join the Circle? Fiona's Mage Rebellion was a failure in that playthrough because I'd allied with the Templars.

Most likely a retcon for the next game.  In other words, you're supposed to ally with the mages. But idk, The only save i used for Tresspasser was Viv divine with Mages conscripted.  I think I still got the whole Collage rival thing.

[Xilizhra]

Xilizhra, why are you constantly ignoring BOTh Tevinter and the quanari?

Happily, they're keeping each other busy.

 

 

So wait, you want them to be totally separate from the Chantry and it's authority, but you want the Chantry to prop them up along with taking care of their own Circle of Magi?  

I don't want the Chantry to have a Circle of Magi at all, which thankfully doesn't happen under Leliana. Vivienne's Circle in that ending is just another College as ruled by Vivienne. And any propping-up would be hopefully temporary.

[Steelcan]

Happily, they're keeping each other busy.

well we both know that the "stalemate" is rather one sided with neither Tevinter or the Qunari engaged in a total war for domination of the area. 

[Iakus]

 

I don't want the Chantry to have a Circle of Magi at all, which thankfully doesn't happen under Leliana. Vivienne's Circle in that ending is just another College as ruled by Vivienne. And any propping-up would be hopefully temporary.

Which still doesn't explain why the Chantry should have any obligation at all to lift a finger for the College.

[Lumix19]

Xilizhra, why are you constantly ignoring BOTh Tevinter and the quanari?

Every nation in Thedas other than Ferelden is either next door to Tevinter (who by and large, STILL believe they should rule all of Thedas) or the Quanari (who unlike the Chantry have the will to actually convert everyone by sword if need to).

What exactly do you propose that Neverra do?

You should read Calpernia's story. It makes it clear that Tevinter is actually too lazy and corrupt to do anything, even properly defend themselves from the Qunari. So whilst their rhetoric may be domination of the South, the actual reality is they do nothing but play politics with the newest rival, or like Calpernia's master, dig up old relics for no purpose other than academic curiosity.

[Lumix19]

So, your suggestion is that there be a College which regulares all mage activity.
If nations object to this and try to create their own Templar forces, the Chantry should raise armies ready to fight and kill the people of Thedas to prevent this and mantain a monopoly in Lyrium which will be provided exclusively to mages ultimately so that the nations of Thedas and their concerns are silenced over the "rights" of mages.
...

You know I feel like Batman talking to the Joker in "The Killing Joke".

If nations object to self-governance couldn't they just throw their support behind Vivienne's Circle? It would explain all the political connections it has.
The direction I think we're moving is that Vivienne's Circle will exist for concerned nations to support and either the College will fail, confirming that fear and having mages placed under Chantry governance again, or it will succeed and the fears of nations will be allayed.
If nations (which ones are these?) however want to set up their own templar forces to conscript mages into their own armies to bolster their military power then that is a serious issue and I expect the Chantry to censure, send the Inquisition to intervene and call upon other nations to do the same. Because the only way nations could get away with it is if they all simultaneously began doing so and all shared the attitude that the Chantry isn't worth listening to and that won't happen.

[Bleachrude]

If nations object to self-governance couldn't they just throw their support behind Vivienne's Circle? It would explain all the political connections it has.
The direction I think we're moving is that Vivienne's Circle will exist for concerned nations to support and either the College will fail, confirming that fear and having mages placed under Chantry governance again, or it will succeed and the fears of nations will be allayed.
If nations (which ones are these?) however want to set up their own templar forces to conscript mages into their own armies to bolster their military power then that is a serious issue and I expect the Chantry to censure, send the Inquisition to intervene and call upon other nations to do the same. Because the only way nations could get away with it is if they all simultaneously began doing so and all shared the attitude that the Chantry isn't worth listening to and that won't happen.

 

 

Again, why are people thinking about FORCE. What exactly is stopping Neverra from having mages in their army VOLUNTARILY. We know for a fact already that Neverra has a mage sect AND the fact that they lived outside of the circles (Cassandra didn't grow up in a circle even though her uncle was a mage). Why exactly would Cassandra's uncle have to have his arm twisted to be part of the nation's military force?

 

Same thing with Orlais. We know that Isolde's grandfather lived with the family (and was somewhat of a dick) and as a noble, it would actually be expected that you would be part of the nation's defence force. Aurely people are not arguing that just because the chantry said "you can't do that" Neverra et al would listen ESPECIALLY with Leliana who a) has no templars no official circle and c) has pretty much broken every other restriction that the Chantry had.

[Lumix19]

Again, why are people thinking about FORCE. What exactly is stopping Neverra from having mages in their army VOLUNTARILY. We know for a fact already that Neverra has a mage sect AND the fact that they lived outside of the circles (Cassandra didn't grow up in a circle even though her uncle was a mage). Why exactly would Cassandra's uncle have to have his arm twisted to be part of the nation's military force?
 
Same thing with Orlais. We know that Isolde's grandfather lived with the family (and was somewhat of a dick) and as a noble, it would actually be expected that you would be part of the nation's defence force. Aurely people are not arguing that just because the chantry said "you can't do that" Neverra et al would listen ESPECIALLY with Leliana who a) has no templars no official circle and c) has pretty much broken every other restriction that the Chantry had.

I guess there's nothing. But what's the problem then?

[Dean_the_Young]

If nations object to self-governance couldn't they just throw their support behind Vivienne's Circle? It would explain all the political connections it has.
The direction I think we're moving is that Vivienne's Circle will exist for concerned nations to support and either the College will fail, confirming that fear and having mages placed under Chantry governance again, or it will succeed and the fears of nations will be allayed.

 

'Succeed' is a poor word, since everyone involved has a different interpretation of what 'success' is. This is an indefinite setup, not one where there will be a conclusion of 'oh, problem solved, we can stop paying attention now.'

 

The resumption of the Circles is a 'safe' fallback and continuity. It's definitely something the nations could support vis-a-vis promoting the local College. By the same extension, though, their ability- formally or informally- to support one or the other is also going to test the unity of the Colleges as an international, and not national, association.

 

Part of those Circle/College power games you're going to see is winning the support of the local elites. That's going to mean finding ways to benefit them- and to benefit them when they're in competition with other elites, who are supported by other mages. The Circles have an edge in being established, internationally neutral, and less interested in integrating with the locals. The Colleges- because integrating with the locals is the point- are going to be far more suseptible to local political dynamics.

 

 

If nations (which ones are these?) however want to set up their own templar forces to conscript mages into their own armies to bolster their military power then that is a serious issue and I expect the Chantry to censure, send the Inquisition to intervene and call upon other nations to do the same. Because the only way nations could get away with it is if they all simultaneously began doing so and all shared the attitude that the Chantry isn't worth listening to and that won't happen.

 

 

For setting up Templars? Highly unlikely- after all, Templars are no more powerful than regular soldiers, and cost more- and you can still control mages with or without lyrium. Lyrium soldiers is a red herring.

 

Recruiting mages is the real issue- but the issue isn't 'forcing mages to contribute', but 'stopping mages who want to contribute.' It's one thing to say to the Countries 'you can't force a mage to help you'- it's quite another to say 'you can't allow a mage to help you'. Not only is there remarkable advantage in that, but such a prohibition starts to directly go against the idea of free association of mages. Whether fighting, or enchantment, or magical construction, or healing, or commerce- these are all national advantages for the nations to encourage.

 

If countries aren't allowed to benefit from mages, you're effectively demanding a ban on magic in the public sphere- which defeats the purpose of letting mages integrate into society and use magic freely.

[Dean_the_Young]

Which still doesn't explain why the Chantry should have any obligation at all to lift a finger for the College.

 

Because it helps Xil's chosen group, of course.

 

Your frame of reference is 'what would be benefit for the Chantry to do such a thing.' Xil's frame of reference is 'what sort of thing would she benefit from the Chantry doing.'

 

Xil's gone over the list of shoulds before- basically a lot of expenditures of political and financial capital to support and defend the privileges of the mages, at the cost (literal and political) of the mundanes.

[lil yonce]

Which still doesn't explain why the Chantry should have any obligation at all to lift a finger for the College.

It may not have a concrete obligation to do so, but it can feel it has an obligation to do so or simply feel it has an interest in doing so. Leliana may feel the Chantry has an obligation to help a new College of Magi, for example. And even aside from that, the Chantry may not want to deal with the embarrassment, the nasty social consequences, or face the erosion of its power with a failed Circle of Magi at its feet. If it determines that it can't bring the mages and templars together under its wing again, it may determine that a Chantry-sponsored College (similar to a government-sponsored enterprise) is the next best bet.

[Hazegurl]

Sponsoring the College would be a good idea, but I don't see the Chantry ever doing that unless the Circle was on it's way out for good and the Chantry would need a place for the Mages to go.  Under Vivienne, the Circles seem to be doing better than ever with Mages achieving more power than before. Sponsoring the College would conflict with the Circle at this point.  It would be like sponsoring your own rival. If the College wants true independence then they can't run to the very place they want independence from and ask for a hand out while promising nothing in return for such a deal.  A sponsorship usually means a mutually beneficial deal.  And I don't see how the Chantry benefits by supporting the College.

 

The only Divine I see aiding the College is Leliana, but how long does a sponsorship turn into a Chantry runned Circle again?

[lil yonce]

It doesn't have to viewed as sponsoring your rival. It could be viewed instead as a means of insuring peace between two factions whose lines are not supposed to be drawn on partisan politics anyway. The Chantry's Circle of Magi has its organizational setup and leadership the College of Magi will have a different setup-- both are meant to serve mages and the larger community-- and here's where the case for Chantry-sponsorship can be made.

 

The Chantry receives donations from people all across Thedas to carry out its mission-- public money in that sense used for the public good. A new magi college will train children from surrounding communities in magic, give them (and perhaps non-mages) an education, it will train them against possession, it can do research for the community, provide magical items the community may want, and magic to help the community in ways it could not have its needs or wants met before. A new college is then a public service. To do these things it will need money and community support and, conveniently, the Chantry is a trustworthy enough, international social institution with ready public funds and social clout to provide it. In other words, it could use public funds to carry out a new public service in the College.

 

And maybe the Chantry is the only organization anyone trusts to try this-- to give money to, so I think it should. Doing it this way also gives communities a choice between magi circles with comfort knowing both are backed by the Chantry. All the Chantry has to do is recognize that the old Circle system is flawed at a structural level, which it is, or that bringing it back or making it the sole magical institution in Southern Thedas is politically counter-productive, a waste of time and resources, a path to corruption, or just more trouble than its worth.

 

It would better for the Chantry to accommodate a new College of Magi because it can then save face, facilitate peace, watch over a new magi college from a respectable distance, and hedge its bets on one system or the other.

 

If its using Chantry funds it could absolutely be demanded of the College of Magi that it make its activities and what goes on in its circles public, for example. Maybe that doesn't happen so easily if the College of Magi is allowed to become a private institution. Also, with public funding, non-mages together with magi leadership could set policy at a very decentralized level. That's a very different organizational setup from the current circle of magi based on templars and mages and grand clerics and kings making decisions behind closed doors about things in a circle-- a decision making apparatus with its own problems and consequences. For those reasons and others it could be attractive.

 

It depends on what the Chantry perceives its mission and what it sets out to do with it.

[Hazegurl]

It doesn't have to viewed as sponsoring your rival. It could be viewed instead as a means of insuring peace between two factions whose lines are not supposed to be drawn on partisan politics anyway. The Chantry's Circle of Magi has its organizational setup and leadership the College of Magi will have a different setup-- both are meant to serve mages and the larger community-- and here's where the case for Chantry-sponsorship can be made.

 

 

That sounds great, until there are mages competing to provide services, goods et al to the public, or vying to entertain at court.  Naturally the College and the Circle will be vying for these rare prestigious positions which will bring in more money and the security of nobles.    Everything you listed about the College potential public service is what the Circle already does, They provide healers and potions on an every day basis and fighters during the blight.  Not that the College can't do that too, but then therein lies the problem. When push comes to shove, we have two different organizations who essentially perform the same function to the public.  Competition is inevitable.  And at this point, it's like asking McDonalds to give Burger King money, burgers, and buns so they can make burgers too.  If that's the case, then why shouldn't Burger King just become McDonalds?

 

It seems to me, like a Chantry supported College of Magi is just another Circle that everyone will just pretend isn't really a Circle. And there is no way rulers won't have a say so of what goes on in the College.  They aren't creating their own nation. As a matter of fact, separating themselves from the Chantry means they are far more beholden to their ruler than the Chantry's Circle.  What will the College do if their ruler wants Templars nearby or in the College?  They can't reject him and they can't keep packing up and moving.  And quite honestly, I don't see how Anora or Alistair wouldn't want Templars around a Fereldan based College of Magi after Redcliffe.   If anything, it seems like the perfect opportunity to spread the Templars to areas where the College will set up, which will most likely make regular people feel far more safe and protected than handing money to the College.