1041 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

But how does the Circle do it? How does the Circle pay for itself? The Chantry doesn't pay for its operation, the mages do, or rather the tranquil-- and that has major problems. The Chantry Circle of Magi has a built-in incentive to tranquilize mages for enchantments to sell to finance itself.

 

A Chantry-sponsored College of Magi wouldn't have that problem because it receives essentially public financing. Advantage to the College. And as a public undertaking, the College wouldn't be interested mainly in what is profitable or what it can sell to pay its bills. It could take more risks in its research or products, or undertake more expensive research and projects. It could focus on projects different from the Chantry Circle. They could specialize in different things. Besides, there are other ways of distributing goods and services than by markets. The Chantry Circle could still take it goods to market if it wants, but perhaps the College decides with the community to distribute its produce based who needs what, or by experience, age, or any number of things other than who can pay for it, and not "compete" with the Chantry Circle at all in that way.

 

And the College's main attraction is that it has a different internal structure. We know its not organized like the Chantry Circle of Magi. It may perform the same services, but its leadership, its structure, its tone as an organization, its decision-making mechanisms are different and that's the point of it really. Now people have a choice about what kind of circle they want to support, send their children to, etc., and that counts for a lot.

 

And about a king's possible interference-- I'm not saying they should be cut out, and what involvement a king has might depend on a nation's politics. In Ferelden the king gets power from the freeholders, so a magi college working with freeholders could then be better politics than a college working with nobles in Orlais. I think it can be worked out in any case. Challenging the College would still be challenging the Chantry in many ways. If the Chantry is backing them, I think most leaders would practice restraint.

[Hazegurl]

Perhaps I missed something, but where does it state that the College is public funded? It just started and I don't remember anything mentioning it's function in society, funding et al in the slides.  But then again they were going extremely fast in my pt. 

 

As for how the Circle makes money and the Tranquil.  From what I recall, the Tranquil are not the sole money makers of the Circle.  They perform tasks and even run shops et al, but they do provide the chunk of funds through enchanting items.  How would the College be immune to the need of using Tranquils for this purpose? Seems like they will need them too to provide an ample amount of funding should they wish to sell enchanted items.  Or are you suggesting that the Circle should just take care of itself as usual and the Chantry should finance the College when they don't even extend the same support to their own Circle?

 

Also, I don't see how the College could do anything differently than the Circle that would demand the public or Chantry financing them.  They can't perform blood magic openly and I doubt the Chantry or public would fund that. Other than that they(The Circle and College) can research the same things and do the same things.  As matter of fact, the Circles could do it better, do to the massive amount of books and records they have.  Where would the College go when they need Ancient records or information? The Circle. Where would they go for enchanted items? The Circle. Which means the Tranquil problem will never go away and it's a system they will contribute to and benefit from should they need items no mage can provide.

 

Overall, it makes no sense for the Chantry to fund an organization that is separated from them.  Most certainly not support them over one that is directly tied to them.  The College cannot claim independence while still being supported by the very organization they wanted independence from. That's like living at home with your parents getting free room, board, and food while claiming to be independent from your parents. You're not.

[lil yonce]

There are no slides. This is based on Xil's idea of a College initially backed by the Chantry.

 

And the tranquil are the Circle's source of income. " The Formari, the branch of the Circle devoted to item enchantment, is made up exclusively of Tranquil, and is the source of all the wealth that sustains our towers." --Codex Entry: The Tranquil.

 

The College doesn't need to focus on enchantments or other goods or services produced by the tranquil because under the model I'm proposing it wouldn't depend on their profits to finance operation. It can offer other mage-based services or focus on mass public education, etc. Public financing frees it from the tranquil trap. It may still have tranquil, maybe that can't be avoided entirely, but it has no incentive to produce them unlike in a Chantry circle.

 

Also, public financing by way of the Chantry (that's important. I'm not really counting it as Chantry money) could be only temporary. I think Xil wants anything from the Chantry to be only temporary actually. And a public fund for the College could come out of something else once the idea has gotten off the ground with Chantry support IMO. The Chantry could support its own circles in the same way, but I don't think it automatically has the same effect. A College of Magi under this system is publicly financed and community/self-managed. A Chantry Circle of Magi on the other hand has no/very little to insignificant community involvement and is templar/mage-managed w/Chantry dogma, rules, and oversight to operate within. I don't think I'd call it "publicly financed" in the way I would a College of Magi under this system either because its so heavily a Chantry organization. In the end, the Chantry has levers of control in the Circle of Magi it doesn't in the College of Magi, and again, there is little community say in what happens in a circle. The Circle then acts more like a private arm of the Chantry, and not like a public enterprise. Plus, the Circle of Magi may not want any Chantry association with its finances as that's one more lever of control the Chantry takes from it when it already has a lot of power over it.

 

And the College doesn't have to be completely financed by the public. It can be partially funded through the public and partially through goods and services, or labor, or College owned property, etc.

 

Blood magic would be up to the College and the community. It'd be up to them to weigh the advantages, problems, etc. The Chantry gets no say. The College is not meant to be managed by the Chantry, so its gets no say in that. The Chantry is more like a piggy bank in this. The public puts its money there for the College to use and when it wants it it makes a withdrawal. And they can research different things and probably will. The Circle of Magi has many ideological constraints and taboos to deal with the College of Magi almost certainly won't have. Its research and projects can go in different directions, ask different questions, etc.

 

Back to why the Chantry would do it: Again, it depends on its mission, its interests, and how it sets about things. But this is what I think: 1) Chantry image has been tarnished, and possibly faces an erosion of power at the breakdown of the Circle (I don't see how it hasn't been) and it can save face by appearing to have a hand in the new College. 2) It can hedge its bets about which kind of magi institution works better in the end and have a model for reforming its own Circle if it has to. 3) It can facilitate peace with the new College and be seen as being at the fore of defending public interests and relaxing social tensions that might otherwise conflict or spring up from a new magi circle. This helps its image. 4) If it backs the College, it will retain importance as a international player in all magi-country relations. Like you said, there may be governments that don't want a free College in their nation, or want to control it as much as they can, but with Chantry backing they can't dictate to the College as they might otherwise be able to. It presence in this, even nominal, can help curtail abuses from national governments. 5) Dueling with the College is ultimately a waste of time and resources. 6) #5 is also a road to corruption. 7) If Vivienne is Divine, Cassandra calls her a tyrant. The Circle may not last w/ a tyrant overseeing it. It wouldn't hurt to have an alternative.

 

Anyway, it just depends on what the Chantry thinks its mission is and how it carries it out.

Modifié par lil yonce, 11 octobre 2015 - 04:07 .

[Hazegurl]

There are no slides. This is based on Xil's idea of a College initially backed by the Chantry.

 

And the tranquil are the Circle's source of income. " The Formari, the branch of the Circle devoted to item enchantment, is made up exclusively of Tranquil, and is the source of all the wealth that sustains our towers." --Codex Entry: The Tranquil.

 

 

Ah ok, for a moment there it sounded as though it was fact that the College would be public funded.  As for the codex, I wasn't disputing that the Tranquil are a source of income, they are not the only source.  They also sell goods the Mages make because they can't leave the Circles.

 

The model you and Xil propose is a fantasy in which the College does everything the Circle already does but...it is somehow different for some reason. And the Chantry should financially support them...for some reason.  I get what you're trying to propose but you offer no realistic bases for them to even reach that point other than "the Chantry will support them because they will".  It would be nice for the College to offer public education.  But first the regular folk must be convinced the College is safe, must have free time to go to said school, and must have the finances to pay the College for said education. That takes time and nobles already have paid educators so there's not much incentive to get them onboard. So, what will they do for money to get any of this started?  Unless, the Chantry just gives it to them..Okay but why should they when the College can't provide anything tangible that their public education system will work before such an investment is made. 

 

The real money obviously seems to be Enchantments.

 

Also, what does the College give to the Chantry in exchange for the financial support?  What can they personally give the Chantry that would make investing in them worthwhile? What can they give the nobles? And Regular folks don't have enough funds to support a College.  Once again, you're providing a perfect scenario in which the College gets everything but gives nothing in return...but the promise of a school, that may or may not be successful.

 

And the College doesn't have to be completely financed by the public. It can be partially funded through the public and partially through goods and services, or labor, or College owned property, etc.

 

Which will then place them in competition with the better equipped Circles. Not seeing how they'll fair well financially there.

 

Blood magic would be up to the College and the community. It'd be up to them to weigh the advantages, problems, etc. The Chantry gets no say.

 

Good luck with that.  People do not want blood mages hanging around and if the Chantry gets wind of any sort of blood magic being practiced by the College it will get shut down. Do you really believe the Chantry would financially support A College known for practicing Blood magic which goes against everything they stand for? The Chantry will not just be a piggy bank. If they get the money then it's there's to do whatever they wish with it.  They do not have to give the College anything, nor support Blood magic.

 

Like I said before, the only Divine who would most likely support the College is Leliana and once again the question is posed.  How is a Chantry supported organization free from the Chantry?

[dragonflight288]

 

 

 

Ah ok, for a moment there it sounded as though it was fact that the College would be public funded.  As for the codex, I wasn't disputing that the Tranquil are a source of income, they are not the only source.  They also sell goods the Mages make because they can't leave the Circles.

 

They are the only cited source in all the lore. 

 

The templars have funding from the Chantry, but the Circle's themselves, the only known sources is all about the enchantment services, or possibly the odd noble hiring a mage. 

 

Also, the Tranquil at Ostagar in Origins outright says that they don't get by on charity. 

 

 

 

 

The real money obviously seems to be Enchantments.

 

 

Well...yeah. It's also a large part of the dwarven economy, well the lyrium trade is, but even then they sell what they don't use themselves. 

 

 

 

Also, what does the College give to the Chantry in exchange for the financial support?  What can they personally give the Chantry that would make investing in them worthwhile? What can they give the nobles? And Regular folks don't have enough funds to support a College.  Once again, you're providing a perfect scenario in which the College gets everything but gives nothing in return...but the promise of a school, that may or may not be successful.

 

Obviously there would be a risk vs reward system in play, just like in real life with real investments. 

 

For example, Adalla the Bard (who really wasn't a bard, Wynne, she was a magister from Tevinter who fled assasination,) worked with the southern chantry and templars to develop the Litany as a way to successfully combat the mind-domination of blood magic. 

 

Another thing is the eluvians. They have become too well-known of to be ignored, especially now that their utility has been proven by the Qunari, the elves and Solas in Trespasser, but you have to have mages full of knoweldge and elven lore to even think of unlocking one. But it may very well lead to building new ones.

 

Like Merrill. Not sure she would approve of the College utilizing the elvuain network for the sake of Nobles or the Chantry, but the potential is there. 

 

What I think is likely to happen is that some mage or another may form a theory, develop a proof-of-concept and then present their theory and concept to the College, and by being publically funded, the sponsors, probably the Chantry or others, would determine if they are willing to risk the money on the research, whatever it may be. 

 

If you can't tell, Lil Yonce and I are actually lucrosions. lol. 

 

 

 

Which will then place them in competition with the better equipped Circles. Not seeing how they'll fair well financially there.

 

Freedom of operation. Where in a Circle you have the templars and religious dogma dictating what you can research, what is acceptable or not, and the mages simply have to deal with it. Some avenues of research are cut off entirely. 

 

The College shows the potential to open avenues of research previously closed off, creating new areas of expertise that a Circle may never achieve. 

 

This same freedom may also bring in some heavy duty sponsors to make up for the lack of enchantment for the sake of potential gains that enchantment does not provide,

 

 

 

Like I asked before, the only Divine who would most likely support the College is Leliana and once again the question is posed.  How is a Chantry supported organization free from the Chantry?

 

Chantry sponsored is not Chantry run. The Chantry would obviously have a certain level of influence over the affairs of the College, but they don't make or enforce the rules. And if other sponsors besides the Chantry spring up, it creates a sense of competition. The Chantry would have to accommodate allowances for the sake of other nobles or risk losing influence, say in an arling, and the lord would have to take into account that the Chantry pretty much influences the hearts and minds of the faithful, including many, many of their subjects. 

 

It also allows the mages a lot more say in their lives. 

 

Imagine a mage is required to attend the Circle to get training, but after passing their Harrowing they now have a choice. They can stay in a Circle if they so choose, probably have higher funding facilities already set up, and a vast library and magical tradition already established, where they may raise and train new mages, do research and feel safe among the templars due to their own experiences, or they may choose to leave the Circle and attend a College and be part of a larger community, but that comes with a lot more unknowns. 

 

That's not how the slides go, but that does seem like a fair system that helps mages get used to life outside a Circle if they so choose and gives them more freedoms, but the mages still get the training required and precautions and security are in place should a mage blow his or her top with madness or something. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I think people are forgetting that a divine Leliana world state doesn't have a chantry supported circle, thus both the college and circle are independent in a divine Leliana world stage since apparently people are getting confused on world stage.

[dragonflight288]

I think people are forgetting that a divine Leliana world state doesn't have a chantry supported circle, thus both the college and circle are independent in a divine Leliana world stage since apparently people are getting confused on world stage.

 

No one has forgotten. We're dealing in hypotheticals and enjoying theories on how the college and circle could work together without conflict and provide both stability and freedoms and dignity for mages. 

[Bleachrude]

yeah....that makes absolutely no sense (but I can actually see Bioware implementing it just BECAUSE).

 

Why would the Chantry provide money/resources to an organization that they have absolutely no control over? Hell, I'm still wondering why the College wouldn't inherently beome more corrupt than the Circle - the circle system HAS both Templars/Seekers/Chantry along with the mages themselves as possible oversight whereas the college system has nothing but the mages

[lil yonce]

@Hazegurl; Judging by the codex, IMO it sounds like the tranquil are the only source of Circle income. At least anything substantial.

 

And the College is different from the Circle. A rebellion was waged for its very important differences to be recognized. It could benefit the Chantry to acknowledge those differences and work with them where they can rather than against them, and I gave you at least 7 reasons why I think its in the Chantry's interest to support the new College right away. If you don't agree that's fine, but you haven't debunked them as illegitimate. I haven't said that the Chantry will support them "just cuz" either.

 

Being backed by the Chantry goes a long way to comforting the public IMO. And the College doesn't seem to have had too much trouble getting up and running in the epilogue. Things may be even easier if Leliana is Divine.

 

I don't think the Chantry gets anything out of it other than what I mentioned. It saves face after the Circle collapse, rebuilds public trust as an institution, avoids entangling itself in petty Circle/College politics, hedges its bets, monitors the College from a comfortable distance, prevents the College from becoming an unaccountable private institution, retains its importance in international magi politics, carries out its mission of doing public good, and the things I've said in other posts.

 

I like the idea of the College being supported through continent-wide revenue sharing via the Chantry over each branch's funding being dependent on local contributions alone.

 

Some market competition isn't a horrible thing, and again, it can distribute goods and services by means other than a completely free market. I think the College will focus far less on enchantments and other tranquil produce in the long run anyway. And the College may have many other tools to make money like I suggested. Far more mage-based (not tranquil) services. It may become a community employer itself. It may earn income through land or other properties it owns, etc. There are ways of earning income other than selling tranquil goods in a marketplace.

 

The Chantry has to live with the consequences of its **** up. Adjustments in its worldview must be made. Its not going to get everything it wants out of this and fighting with the College will be bad politics. Anyways, looking into blood magic could be saved for a time after the College and the Chantry cut ties. I don't think this is has to be a long term arrangement or that its built or meant to be.

[Bleachrude]

Of course the College gets setup easily because Bioware basically said 

 

"This is the status quo"

 

Never mind that it makes absolutely no sense or the fact that it takes a boot to the lore (Hell, I'm still more disappointed in that Leliana can overturn a 1000 years of doctrine with regard to priests being single female human)

 

And the reason why I pretty much think the setting is hopeless as it stands is that basically Bioware has invalidated Origins with regard to how magic is treated.

 

EDIT  Public funded

To my knowledge, there's NOTHING in Thedas that is actually public funded since there is no such thing as a national tax system in any of the nations - Antiva might actually be the only nation that could probably have that given its merchant princes/houses and how the mafia/crows have historically been involved with protection rackets.

 

The only university in all of Thedas is in Orlais and that is run through the coffers of Celene  I don't even think the Chantry itself is publicly funded...there's never been a mention of tithing in any of the lore.

 

I can't see how the college system gets any funding without whoever is funding it expecting something in return and or having a major influence on it (a la Celene with the university) 

[introverted_assassin]

i was not aware that the tranquil provide revenue for the chantry. i don't know why there was a disconnect for me there...I think i reasoned that they're allowed to keep the funds for themselves for whatever reason.

[dragonflight288]

i was not aware that the tranquil provide revenue for the chantry. i don't know why there was a disconnect for me there...I think i reasoned that they're allowed to keep the funds for themselves for whatever reason.

 

Well, now you're informed. 

[Hazegurl]

They are the only cited source in all the lore. 

 

The templars have funding from the Chantry, but the Circle's themselves, the only known sources is all about the enchantment services, or possibly the odd noble hiring a mage. 

 

Also, the Tranquil at Ostagar in Origins outright says that they don't get by on charity. 

 

 

The Dragon Age wiki states that the Tranquil also sell Mage created goods.  And we've seen this in our own games.  I'm not arguing against the Tranquil's role in the Circles income but the source claiming them as the only source. That is just not true,  unless the source is counting the fact that it's the Tranquil who sell the goods and bring the money in.

 

Well...yeah. It's also a large part of the dwarven economy, well the lyrium trade is, but even then they sell what they don't use themselves. 

 

Of course I'm stating the obvious with that.  The point is that, how would the College make money on par with enchantments without selling enchantments when it is the Circles largest income producer.  How would the College's Mages not need the very thing the Circles need to make enough money to survive? I'm quite sure the Mages tried other methods before realizing that enchantments were the money makers.

 

Obviously there would be a risk vs reward system in play, just like in real life with real investments. 

 

And this is what I'm trying to get into.  All I saw was "reward reward reward" with no risks nor tangible give and take between the investor and invested.   I can see the Eluvians being real money makers for nobles, rulers et al.  But why turn to the College first? Everyone in Thedas knows that the largest libraries are in the Circles.  It's where the Warden turns when searching for Morrigan, it's pretty much where anyone turns...other than apostates like Morrigan.  But then again. They even managed to get their hands on Flemeth's Grimoire.  If I'm an investor searching for a way to unlock the Eluvians, I would first look to the Circles due mainly because of the library.

 

 

If you can't tell, Lil Yonce and I are actually lucrosions. lol. 

 

lol!! Oddly enough, I consider myself more of a lucrosian as well.

 

Chantry sponsored is not Chantry run. The Chantry would obviously have a certain level of influence over the affairs of the College, but they don't make or enforce the rules. And if other sponsors besides the Chantry spring up, it creates a sense of competition. The Chantry would have to accommodate allowances for the sake of other nobles or risk losing influence, say in an arling, and the lord would have to take into account that the Chantry pretty much influences the hearts and minds of the faithful, including many, many of their subjects. 

 

This seems like the only realistic thing that may happen, but I still see looking to the Chantry for money a step toward becoming another Circle. 

 

First of all, there are different ways an investor/bank will invest in a company.  Usually Collateral comes into play, along with requirements and guidelines a business must follow before they can receive such funds.  What do the Mages have as Collateral that the Chantry can get should they fail to provide ample reward?  And If the Divine/Noble/Ruler says "We will fund you provided that you allow Templars on College grounds."  What could the College do but refuse or accept?  If they accept because they are in need of the finances, then they are right back to being a Circle. All it takes is for the Divine/Noble/Ruler to offer that as a requirement.  Or they could say "Allow Templars to inspect the College at X times."  as a guideline.  When you are asking for money out of people, you are pretty much at their mercy. But then again, why go through all of that when you can just hire the Circle Mages to do the same thing?

 

Also, They(College Mages) would also have to explain in detail what they plan to do with every single coin that comes their way.  And let's not forget the fact that a contract is usually signed which lasts for x amount of years.

 

So if they are placed under a contract with the Chantry for X amount of years, they are stuck with them and most likely cannot take on any more investors, especially not competitors with the Chantry until said contract is completed.  So much for freedom.

 

Why wouldn't the Chantry want the College locked down under contract with them if they are helping it get off the ground?  There would be nothing stopping the College from getting the money from the Chantry and splitting to a new investor.  Only a fool would put themselves in that position.

 

Also, investment bankers make the most money selling companies for large amounts of money. Meaning that the Chantry may see fit to ensure the College fails before the contract runs out, so they can then pass them along to another investor who would be willing to buy the College mages from the Chantry for a large amount of money.  Does it sound heartless? Yeah, but that's business.  Not to mention life gets in the way and the College could fail in their endeavor on their own, which can still place them under some sort of Indentured servitude to the Chantry or whomever invested in them.

 

It also allows the mages a lot more say in their lives. 

 

Imagine a mage is required to attend the Circle to get training, but after passing their Harrowing they now have a choice. They can stay in a Circle if they so choose, probably have higher funding facilities already set up, and a vast library and magical tradition already established, where they may raise and train new mages, do research and feel safe among the templars due to their own experiences, or they may choose to leave the Circle and attend a College and be part of a larger community, but that comes with a lot more unknowns. 

 

That's not how the slides go, but that does seem like a fair system that helps mages get used to life outside a Circle if they so choose and gives them more freedoms, but the mages still get the training required and precautions and security are in place should a mage blow his or her top with madness or something. 

 

If placed under contract they may not have much freedom or it will fluctuate between who is invested at X time.  But they would have a choice about which place to go to though....a freedom they already had before the Colleges were created.

[Hazegurl]

yeah....that makes absolutely no sense (but I can actually see Bioware implementing it just BECAUSE).

 

Why would the Chantry provide money/resources to an organization that they have absolutely no control over? Hell, I'm still wondering why the College wouldn't inherently beome more corrupt than the Circle - the circle system HAS both Templars/Seekers/Chantry along with the mages themselves as possible oversight whereas the college system has nothing but the mages

Pretty much this.  No bank or investor is giving money to any business they have zero control over.  They will control you no matter what.  Either through the loss of your collateral or the loss of your business itself.  It would be stupid not to have some control over your investment.  The idea that the College Mages can just hop skip to anybody willing to fling money at them is a fantasy.  But I can see it happening in DA because their lore is now based on "The feels" rather than logic. 

[Boost32]

i was not aware that the tranquil provide revenue for the chantry. i don't know why there was a disconnect for me there...I think i reasoned that they're allowed to keep the funds for themselves for whatever reason.

And they dont, all the money stay in the Circles, they dont pay anything for the Chantry.

 

 

No one has forgotten. We're dealing in hypotheticals and enjoying theories on how the college and circle could work together without conflict and provide both stability and freedoms and dignity for mages. 

There will always be conflict between them, they have very diferent midnset and in all ends they have a uneasy coexistence. They are going to fight, in fact they already fought in one of the ends (the College lost by the way).

Its very naive to think they will not clash in the near future.

[dragonflight288]

 

The Dragon Age wiki states that the Tranquil also sell Mage created goods.  And we've seen this in our own games.  I'm not arguing against the Tranquil's role in the Circles income but the source claiming them as the only source. That is just not true,  unless the source is counting the fact that it's the Tranquil who sell the goods and bring the money in.

 

 

The codex entry "The Tranquil" changes in Dragon Age Origins if you are a mage or not. What Lil Yonce quoted was what is said if the Warden is a mage. If the Warden is not, this is what it says. 

 

"Every city of respectable size boasts a Circle of Magi shop, and every one of these shops is run by a Tranquil proprietor." 

 

Taking the two combined, the Tranquil make up the Formari who craft and enchant items for the Circle, but other Tranquil make up the merchants outside the Circle's to sell these goods. This, I gather, is the source of income for the Circle's. 

 

There are a couple other, minor, sources, like nobles hiring healers as Teagan tries to do for Eamon after he had been poisoned, or assuming the role of Court Enchanter as Vivienne had, and there has always been lyrium smugglers but I think the tranquil are what gives the Circle's their main source of currency. 

 

 

 

Of course I'm stating the obvious with that.  The point is that, how would the College make money on par with enchantments without selling enchantments when it is the Circles largest income producer.  How would the College's Mages not need the very thing the Circles need to make enough money to survive? I'm quite sure the Mages tried other methods before realizing that enchants were the money makers.

 

 

That's why there's a risk/reward system as I said. Say a mage in the college comes forth and offers a proof of concept that he magically, and cheaply, recreate the Qunari's explosives. How many nobles or kingdoms would pay through the nose to get their hands on it? You'd have gun-powder.

 

What if the college has a team invested in agriculture and discovers ways to multiply the amount of crops a small farm can produce without increasing the size of the land? Freeholders would be all over it. 

 

The college is a risk because its kind has never been done before. All we can say for sure is that the Circle's have made a great amount of money from enchantment and it's likely that the College cannot match that. 

 

But with tranquility's cure and mages no longer required to be in the Circle's, I think that the supply of enchantments will actually dry up with a decreasing number of tranquil. 

 

 

 

 But why turn to the College first? Everyone in Thedas knows that the largest libraries are in the Circles.  It's where the Warden turns when searching for Morrigan, it's pretty much where anyone turns...other than apostates like Morrigan.  But then again. They even managed to get their hands on Flemeth's Grimoire.  If I'm an investor searching for a way to unlock the Eluvians, I would first look to the Circles due mainly because of the library.

 

The largest source of information before the Breach, you mean. Vivienne discusses how looters have stolen knowledge, and who knows how many mages have taken large chunks of the libraries with them to the college. 

 

A proper accounting of who has what and what is missing now that the dust of conflict is settled has to take place before we definitively say that the Circle's still have that monopoly.

 

 

I'll get to the rest tomorrow. I'm tired for now and am struggling to keep my eyes open. But I would like to respond to one more comment. 

 

 

Boost32 wrote...

There will always be conflict between them, they have very diferent midnset and in all ends they have a uneasy coexistence. They are going to fight, in fact they already fought in one of the ends (the College lost by the way).

Its very naive to think they will not clash in the near future.

 

 

They don't have to fight, and they only fight in one of the endings because Vivienne essentially decides to crush any and all malcontents, or dissidents to the status quo that she grew up in and supports and Cassandra calls her a tyrant. 

 

If the peace is enforced so that any criminal acts engaged by either side is swiftly and justly dealt with without bias or favor, it may very well be that the conflict could be as simple as two businesses competing for customers, or in this case, patronage. 

[Bleachrude]

Another thing that comes to mind is the standard of living.

 

Even in Kirkwall, the acknowledge worst circle in thedas, the actual living conditions were BETTER than lowtown (let's not even compare it to Darktown) when you compare the rooms etc.

 

Same goes for Ferelden - compare the living conditions of the circle mages in Kinloch hold to the non nobles living in Denerim 0 most in Denerim live in one room hovels.

 

Sera herself points this out that the circle mages in Val Royeaux actually live better than where she comes from as she basically thinks of mages/Templar when she banters with Cassandra as nobles ("You seekers/Templars/mages don't know what it is like out here..Here, you're always hungry") 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Another thing that comes to mind is the standard of living.

Even in Kirkwall, the acknowledge worst circle in thedas, the actual living conditions were BETTER than lowtown (let's not even compare it to Darktown) when you compare the rooms etc.

Same goes for Ferelden - compare the living conditions of the circle mages in Kinloch hold to the non nobles living in Denerim 0 most in Denerim live in one room hovels.

Sera herself points this out that the circle mages in Val Royeaux actually live better than where she comes from as she basically thinks of mages/Templar when she banters with Cassandra as nobles ("You seekers/Templars/mages don't know what it is like out here..Here, you're always hungry")

You do realize Dorian uses that same argument to defend slavery

[introverted_assassin]

*oprah voice* so what is the truth? their funds support the circle or the chantry? or both, in some way?

[Bleachrude]

You do realize Dorian uses that same argument to defend slavery

?????

 

What does that have to do with the fact that it is going to cost a LOT of money if the College mages want to live at the same standard of living as before? Patrons are going to expect a lot in return if they are putting up that much money.

 

 

*oprah voice* so what is the truth? their funds support the circle or the chantry? or both, in some way?

 

Bioware itself probably doesnt know as the economics are only hinted at. For example, as Sera mentions and what we see in-game, the standard of living for a mage in a circle WAS higher than the average non-noble we saw from that same country. But how much did it take to run a circle we don't know...we don't know how many magical item was created/sold so we can't determine

 

We don't know if a mage living with a noble got paid or were they considered part of the household and thus everything was part of the household expense...if a mage did get paid separately, did a mage have to set aside for the circle or was it all for themselves?

 

All these things are left vague so we don't know.

 

My guess is it is a combination of the circle supporting itself through the tranquil selling items, the one-time hiring of a mage for services (I imagine if a mage actually lived with a noble, this would be between the noble and the mage), general chantry funds and patronage from noble families with mage relatvies a la the human mage inquisitor.

[Dean_the_Young]

It doesn't have to viewed as sponsoring your rival. It could be viewed instead as a means of insuring peace between two factions whose lines are not supposed to be drawn on partisan politics anyway. The Chantry's Circle of Magi has its organizational setup and leadership the College of Magi will have a different setup-- both are meant to serve mages and the larger community-- and here's where the case for Chantry-sponsorship can be made.

 

The Chantry receives donations from people all across Thedas to carry out its mission-- public money in that sense used for the public good. A new magi college will train children from surrounding communities in magic, give them (and perhaps non-mages) an education, it will train them against possession, it can do research for the community, provide magical items the community may want, and magic to help the community in ways it could not have its needs or wants met before. A new college is then a public service. To do these things it will need money and community support and, conveniently, the Chantry is a trustworthy enough, international social institution with ready public funds and social clout to provide it. In other words, it could use public funds to carry out a new public service in the College.

 

And maybe the Chantry is the only organization anyone trusts to try this-- to give money to, so I think it should. Doing it this way also gives communities a choice between magi circles with comfort knowing both are backed by the Chantry. All the Chantry has to do is recognize that the old Circle system is flawed at a structural level, which it is, or that bringing it back or making it the sole magical institution in Southern Thedas is politically counter-productive, a waste of time and resources, a path to corruption, or just more trouble than its worth.

 

It would better for the Chantry to accommodate a new College of Magi because it can then save face, facilitate peace, watch over a new magi college from a respectable distance, and hedge its bets on one system or the other.

 

If its using Chantry funds it could absolutely be demanded of the College of Magi that it make its activities and what goes on in its circles public, for example. Maybe that doesn't happen so easily if the College of Magi is allowed to become a private institution. Also, with public funding, non-mages together with magi leadership could set policy at a very decentralized level. That's a very different organizational setup from the current circle of magi based on templars and mages and grand clerics and kings making decisions behind closed doors about things in a circle-- a decision making apparatus with its own problems and consequences. For those reasons and others it could be attractive.

 

It depends on what the Chantry perceives its mission and what it sets out to do with it.

 

A not-insignificant issue here is that the Chantry's mission is widely perceived to be to focus on the needs of the masses: both charity to the poor, and to protect them from dangers mundane and magical.

 

'Charity for the poor' is kind of undermined if the Chantry takes from the poor, and gives to the mage-rich, who, if free, are a social class with powers, education, and even wealth (institutionally or even personally with time and opportunity) approaching or even rivaling the nobility.

 

 

Moreover- if the Chantry can and does use its funding to direct the College of Magi's actions into policies that the Chantry desires, then the notion of free and autonomous mages goes away. Power of the purse is as much a tool for coercion as any other.

[Dean_the_Young]

There are no slides. This is based on Xil's idea of a College initially backed by the Chantry.

 

Thought they sounded familiar. Also explains why the public is expected to fund it- Xil was fond of taxing the mundanes. Let's dive in a bit.

 

 

 

 

And the tranquil are the Circle's source of income. " The Formari, the branch of the Circle devoted to item enchantment, is made up exclusively of Tranquil, and is the source of all the wealth that sustains our towers." --Codex Entry: The Tranquil.

 

 

 

 

 

The College doesn't need to focus on enchantments or other goods or services produced by the tranquil because under the model I'm proposing it wouldn't depend on their profits to finance operation. It can offer other mage-based services or focus on mass public education, etc. Public financing frees it from the tranquil trap. It may still have tranquil, maybe that can't be avoided entirely, but it has no incentive to produce them unlike in a Chantry circle.

 

 

 

A relevant question here is 'why is it better for the Chantry to provide public funding to the College than ask and enable the Circle to do the same thing?'

 

You can easily say that the College would be freed from the need for self-profit. You don't make a case of why they should be... or why it would be better for the Chantry, the public financier, to give the money to them. If the Chantry wants to provide public services, why the College and not the already-established Chantry institutions, or the Circles?

 

On the subject of the Tranquil-

 

Even if we ignore that the decision of making Tranquil has normally resided with the mages- with the exception of Templar abuses that weren't in the name of profit- your solution of public financing isn't a merit of the College in particular. The Circles themselves could/would be freed of the profit incentive if they got the public funding.

 

Not that we've ever gotten any real indication that there's a significant 'tranquility for profit' motive or issue in the Circles in the first place. It's a possibility, to be sure- but that possibility of greed would also, and always, exist regardless of the funding source unless there's an actual ban on Tranquil-profits. If the College gets sufficient funding, it still has profit motive for Tranquil so that it can have even more funds to do whatever with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, public financing by way of the Chantry (that's important. I'm not really counting it as Chantry money) could be only temporary. I think Xil wants anything from the Chantry to be only temporary actually. And a public fund for the College could come out of something else once the idea has gotten off the ground with Chantry support IMO. The Chantry could support its own circles in the same way, but I don't think it automatically has the same effect. A College of Magi under this system is publicly financed and community/self-managed. A Chantry Circle of Magi on the other hand has no/very little to insignificant community involvement and is templar/mage-managed w/Chantry dogma, rules, and oversight to operate within. I don't think I'd call it "publicly financed" in the way I would a College of Magi under this system either because its so heavily a Chantry organization. In the end, the Chantry has levers of control in the Circle of Magi it doesn't in the College of Magi, and again, there is little community say in what happens in a circle. The Circle then acts more like a private arm of the Chantry, and not like a public enterprise. Plus, the Circle of Magi may not want any Chantry association with its finances as that's one more lever of control the Chantry takes from it when it already has a lot of power over it.

 

 

Xil's ideas on the College's are that they aren't subject to oversight or management by communities- only themselves. The same, by Xil's own past admissions, applies to funding, for fear of power of the purse. Which wasn't present in the Circle, because they were self-funded, but would absolutely be present in a College system that depends on any form of outside funding.

 

Your depiction of the levers the Chantry had to control in the Circle is largely fictional- the Chantry was largely, even excessively, hands-off on Circle affairs. The Circle mages selected their own leaders, chose their own internal policies, their own fields of research. The Chantry was so hands-off that it allowed and tolerated an openly secessionist political movement within the Circles. The 'levers of power' the Chantry had were largely non-existent: they depended on the Templars, and the Templars didn't dictate how the Circles ran internally. Calling the Circle an arm of the Chantry is an extreme exageration when mages weren't even forced to work, let alone war, on its behalf.

 

 

 

And the College doesn't have to be completely financed by the public. It can be partially funded through the public and partially through goods and services, or labor, or College owned property, etc.

 

 

As the Greeks have learned in the last years, 'partial' is enough. As long as you are dependent- and you can find yourself dependent on habits and expectations far exceeding mere necessities- you can be influenced.

 

 

Blood magic would be up to the College and the community. It'd be up to them to weigh the advantages, problems, etc. The Chantry gets no say. The College is not meant to be managed by the Chantry, so its gets no say in that. The Chantry is more like a piggy bank in this. The public puts its money there for the College to use and when it wants it it makes a withdrawal. And they can research different things and probably will. The Circle of Magi has many ideological constraints and taboos to deal with the College of Magi almost certainly won't have. Its research and projects can go in different directions, ask different questions, etc.

 

 

 

If the Chantry is the money-holder, it absolutely gets a say. You may not want it to have a say, but it will- because depending on the Chantry to handle the money gives it an interest, and a means, to see that it's not supporting activities anathema to its politics. It has both a motive, and a means, and that's not counting the outside pressures of others who would disagree with the College and pressure the Chantry to act.

 

If Colleges are violating the tenants of the faithful are depending on the faithful and the institution of the faithful to not only support, but their profanities against outside pressures, they're going to be disappointed.

 

 

And if, by chance, the Chantry really did wish to tolerate and fund such research... then they can tolerate the autonomy of Circle mages to research it.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

Back to why the Chantry would do it: Again, it depends on its mission, its interests, and how it sets about things. But this is what I think: 1) Chantry image has been tarnished, and possibly faces an erosion of power at the breakdown of the Circle (I don't see how it hasn't been) and it can save face by appearing to have a hand in the new College.

 

This face would be considerably more credible if it's hand was actually strong- such as leveraging influence to actually control the College like a Circle- or didn't subsidize the actual breakdown of the Circle.

 

 

2) It can hedge its bets about which kind of magi institution works better in the end and have a model for reforming its own Circle if it has to.

 

 

Hedging its bets works better if it undermines the actual independence College- thus able to bring it to heel if it doesn't work- while allowing it the same sort of autonomy it already grants circles to choose their policies.

 

Again- Circle with another name.

 

 

 

3) It can facilitate peace with the new College and be seen as being at the fore of defending public interests and relaxing social tensions that might otherwise conflict or spring up from a new magi circle. This helps its image.

 

 

It could also facilitate peace by not allowing a new College that will be publicly competing for resources and influence with the Circle. These are social tensions that will not otherwise spring up.

 

The propoganda sum is short-term, and zero-sum for inviting problems it wouldn't already have.

 

 

 

4) If it backs the College, it will retain importance as a international player in all magi-country relations.

 

 

It would also do this if it maintains a monopoly on magi-country relations.

 

 

Like you said, there may be governments that don't want a free College in their nation, or want to control it as much as they can, but with Chantry backing they can't dictate to the College as they might otherwise be able to. It presence in this, even nominal, can help curtail abuses from national governments.

 

 

So... like the Circles the Chantry already has.

 

This is actually an argument against the College, if you think it through, since College-Circle competition gives the nations more, not less, levers and ways to seek mage benefits. Moreover, since your funding suggestions give more dependence, and influence, to rich benefactors, the less Chantry funding the College runs on the more elite-fundings the nations have to leash the Colleges with.

 

 

 

5) Dueling with the College is ultimately a waste of time and resources.

 

 

Circles are already self-funded. Chantry costs come from the Templars- who, if they still exist for the Circles, will also exist and be used to mop-up whenever there's a College issue. The College doesn't save on Templar costs if the Templars will exist regardless. And if they don't exist, then the College saves no money on the set up, and costs more by virtue of being Chantry funded.

 

 

 

 

 

6) #5 is also a road to corruption.

 

 

The College is also a road to corruption. The merits to supporting the College need to be advantages, not shared weaknesses.

 

 

 

7) If Vivienne is Divine, Cassandra calls her a tyrant. The Circle may not last w/ a tyrant overseeing it. It wouldn't hurt to have an alternative.

 

 

Sure it could- especially if said Tyrant is given an easily recognizable, 'outside' identity doing unpopular and even heretical for all her dissidents to conveniently flock towards. The Hundred Flowers campaign, anyway?

 

Of course, chasing this horrible tyrant who so oppresses her own mages that she gives them greater freedoms, responsibilities, and positions in the Chantry kind of misses the point that she permits the College, and has no lands to tyrannize over.

 

 

 

Anyway, it just depends on what the Chantry thinks its mission is and how it carries it out.

 

 

How about dat charity for the poor, am I right?

 

Or we could take Xil's idea, and tax 'em instead.

[Il Divo]

A not-insignificant issue here is that the Chantry's mission is widely perceived to be to focus on the needs of the masses: both charity to the poor, and to protect them from dangers mundane and magical.

 

'Charity for the poor' is kind of undermined if the Chantry takes from the poor, and gives to the mage-rich, who, if free, are a social class with powers, education, and even wealth (institutionally or even personally with time and opportunity) approaching or even rivaling the nobility.

 

 

Being honest here, this strikes me as setting us down the road of Tevinter in the long term.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Being honest here, this strikes me as setting us down the road of Tevinter in the long term.

 

Oh, you should have been there when Xil first started formulating her plan.

 

Less public services, more luxurious hedonism at tax-payer expense so that mages never felt stress, worry about unemployment, or suffer any want that could lead them to demonic temptation. And the less said about infatuations with mundanes, the better.

 

Still- magic will serve man! ...after taxes are collected, allocated at the whims of the political elite, at the discretion of the mages themselves.