1041 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

I think the First Enchanter typically decides what to produce and what to charge for it. You can hear tranquil in the Gallows noting that Orsino marked up prices for Formari-made items to make money for the Circle.

[Hazegurl]

Moreover, why outsource your education work, to people who are expected to ideologically not be in agreement with you? If the Chantry wants people to learn, why pay for them to learn things other than what the Chantry feels is right and true?

 

Bingo! And let's not forget that Leliana's goal is to spread the Chant of Light, all over the world to both humans and non humans. She would have no reason to dump money into a College that is separated from the Chantry and it's dogma.  Any Mage supporter with Leliana as Divine who thinks she will hand the College money for the feels is kidding themselves.  When the mages escaped from the Inquisition, her response was "They wanted freedom, let them have it. Leave them to take care of themselves." Or something along those lines. To Leliana, freedom means just that. Taking care of yourself. Her money will most likely be spent on charity and spreading the Chant of Light.  If the College isn't down for the Chant of Light, it won't get a single coin from her.

[SgtSteel91]

Leliana's goal isn't spreading the Chant, it's about making the Chantry a place of hope to all people. She even declines the Inquisitor's offer of help with their big army, saying that was the old Chantry.

[Hazegurl]

Leliana's goal isn't spreading the Chant, it's about making the Chantry a place of hope to all people.

 

 

That's what spreading the Chant is.

[Dean_the_Young]

@DeantheYoung; I want to get back to the longer post later, but for now:

 

Restrict their freedom to sell goods and services, and use social planning to allocate surplus? Societies across time have always done that. That's not a problem. And planning is always done by someone, usually a collective-- how does the Circle decide what to produce and sell at market? Someone (likely the Formari with mage leadership) planned that based on the Circle's needs, its budget, available resources, necessary labor, etc., and told the tranquil to do it. I doubt each individual tranquil takes it upon him or herself to decide what to make and sell. In my model, the colleges are community/mage-managed so there is ample opportunity to plan resources where right to do so.

 

The Circle decides who produces what on the basis of what wants to produce for what profit and returns. Mages aren't forced to work on specific outputs- nor do they have quotas- but if they want to buy the nice things they enjoy, they will.

 

Your College doesn't have the Tranquil excuse, remember? Nor is it a centrally planned commune: not only is the College composed of the people who wanted away from the Chantry's oversight, but centralized planning is incompatible with independence from the central planner. The entire point of central planning is that it comes from a central authority who allocates resources- which means the person who controls the money, which is the Chantry.

 

 

Let's not mince words on what you're describing: the mages who wish freedom from the Chantry and its dogma that so bind the Circle are being expected to go to an institution dependent on Chantry money, to work jobs according to the Chantry's direction, being paid less than the value of their work, to fulfill the Chantry's ideological dogma and conducting charity.

 

 

 

And accepting public funds brings the College into a social pact where appropriately they must contribute to society. Mages can leave if they don't like something about that. I wouldn't make them stay. The work mages did in the Circle-- research, education, potions, etc., all the creative work done there can be directed to serve the public in more tangible or meaningful ways than was done under the Chantry Circle. The Circle couldn't dedicate the mass of its resources to public education or helping the poor because it had to pay its way entirely. The incentive to share doesn't accompany the profit motive either. And the mages didn't own any property or have capital to earn extra income from IIRC. They didn't employ community members, the Circle didn't own any businesses outside the Formari tranquil stores. IIRC they aren't allowed that sort of thing, and the reasons for that are ideological. I don't see this as being a problem in the College. It can do partial public funding and partially fund itself, and do it ways the Circle of Magi couldn't.

 

 

The Circle didn't dedicate the mass of its resources to public education or helping the poor because it wasn't supposed to. It was never a goal, or a purpose, or even an intent- and if it was a matter of resources, the Chantry's massive inflow of wealth that would be going to College can go to that just as well. 'The motive to share' would come from the Chantry, who's using the money to buy the the mages services, remember? Because that's a change in the Chantry's intentions- and if the Chantry intends and wants mages to provide more public goods, it can allow and encourage the Circles to do the same.

 

And it has to be encouragement, or else you're ignoring the point of the creation of the College's- to give mages more freedom and independence from Chantry/Templar oversight so that they are freer to interact with whom they want, practice magic as they want, and integrate with society as they want.

 

The argument of a 'social pact' is antithetical to your argument that the College should be free of ideology- as well as free from Chantry direction in what it can and can not do and research. If the mages are obligated- by this ideology- to conduct their research towards public good, they are having their directions tampered with by the Chantry.

 

And, yes, mages in the Circle could earn and keep property- there's an entire fraternity based around gaining wealth.

 

 

 

Plus, I don't buy into "its self-funded, it can do what it wants". That's never true of any organization, IMO. Its the basis for Community and Worker Self Directed Enterpries and argument against modern corporations. If you are part of society, you can't simply what you want. The College will have to work with other institutions no matter what. It doesn't exist on an island. It will have pressures exerted against it, it will be influenced by outsiders no matter how it is funded.

 

 

In a free society- which the mages aligned with the College have just  fought a rebellion for- that is exactly what you can do. You can choose what you do, and how, or not too at all.

 

And I haven't been arguing that the College would be free of outside influence. In fact, I have been arguing that it won't- and that your proposals are not only contradictory, but enhance it's vulnerability to influence. When raised with the prospect of local nobles (the 'society' or 'community' in which they exist), you raised the prospect of Chantry funding freeing them from Noble reliance. In the face of Chantry monetary influence, you raised relying on the locals (again- the nobility). This is robbing Peter to pay Paul- and coming into debt with them both..

 

This is not a path to enhancing mage neutrality and independence. It's the opposite.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I don't see why the College is inherently going to be more expensive than the Circle, especially in the beginning when its likely to start out small-- maybe just a few colleges total. Maybe even just one. It could grow organically from little and quickly grow out of a need for Chantry support, but even if public money become a smaller part of its total funds, I doubt the internal structure will change very significantly. Nobody really wants mages to run things on their own and if mages want to retain a community's goodwill, its best to work with them. Plus, they might simply like how things work. A mage's concern can certainly extend beyond "the College", or "mage affairs", especially if they live/work in the community rather than inside college itself.

 

 

 

The College is going to be inherently more expensive than the Circle of an equivalent scale because the College comes with significant costs that the Circles don't- namely, the money to provide the workshops, laboratories, lyrium, salaries, and all that public goods and services like education.

 

If you have new costs, and less revenue, you are going to find life more expensive.

 

 

 

'Nobody really wants mages to run things on their own' is the goal of the College and Circle Rebellion. It is, in fact, the fundamental point of the endeavor- not Western left-wing communalism.

 

Nor do the mages need, or can rely, on community goodwill to protect their place- fickle public favor aside, mages have means both mundane (political/economic leverage) and magical (fireballs and, of course, blood magic) to ensure their power. And with blood magic, even be popular while they do it.

 

 

 

 

And why shouldn't the Chantry be an authoritative ****** about education? lol. I don't think that's Leliana's style. She's challenged everything about the Chantry so far. It depends on Chantry priorities, it politics why it does anything.

 

So you think that Leliana would hire teachers who tell the students that everything she does is wrong, that magic is highly dangerous and should not be relied upon, and that the Colleges are wasteful?

 

Leliana would murder political rivals in a church, and runs an otherwise unaccountable private spy service to spy on and destroy her rivals.

 

 

Aiding the college and the poor do not have to be in conflict.

 

 

When resources are limited, and the means of aiding the poor through the college are inefficient if not fantastical, they are.

 

Not have to be- just like the College doesn't have to exist at all- but are.

[lil yonce]

First, did you see my edit about "efficiency"?

[dragonflight288]

I know I said last night I would comment more, but having been run off the highway by a semi-truck this morning, my nerves are shot and I'm having difficulties getting my mind focused, I'll have to wait another day.

 

Don't worry, I'm not hurt, just shaken. 

[Hazegurl]

I'm glad you're okay! Take all the time you need, these are just bunch of internet debates that can be done at anytime.  Relax, be thankful you're okay, and take it easy for however long you need.

[Dean_the_Young]

First, did you see my edit about "efficiency"?

 

It wasn't there when I posted. I'll address it now.

 

 

 

Edit: Le sigh. So many different questions means too many quote boxes. Give me a min.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't buy "efficiency" arguments about this either. Like, "Its more efficient for the Chantry to buy at the market itself and give to the poor." Based on what? If its buying at market from merchants, there is a profit mark up, for example.

 

First, the the efficiency I was talking about wasn't market efficiency- it was directional efficiency. If you pay a Circle mage to contribute five hours of healing, you know you're getting five hours. If the Circle mage isn't going to provide it, you pay nothing.

 

The College is, by it's purpose, going to be less restrictive on the mages and the labor than the Circles. The Chantry money will come regardless by the design of the College. As the soviet joke used to say- pretend to pay them, and they'll pretend to work.

 

 

 

What it buys there could be far more costly than providing some money to the College, allowing them to assemble raw materials and produce and distribute.

 

 

If it's more expensive, then they wouldn't do it. That's the advantage of market pricing, as opposed to price-controls: so that you can tell what the actual cost of something is, more or less.

 

If the College were willing to assemble and produce the same good for less cost than it the Circle, the Chantry would buy it from them. Similarly- the Chantry could buy it from other Circles, or from specific Circle mages, to encourage the competition advantage.

 

What you aren't going to see if free mages assembling and distributing at below cost. There's always a cost- even opportunity-costs- even if you can't see them. Costs can be hidden with underpaid labor- you might never know the opportunity costs- but they still exist.

 

 

 

If the Chantry buys up a mass of goods at market for the poor, what is left for other members of that community to buy?

 

Other goods and services not bought up.

 

This isn't somehow unique to the purchase process- the same shortage exists if the Chantry forces the mages to produce a mass of goods for the poor directly. The same amount of goods and services- assuming the same amount is produced- aren't available for the market.

 

 

 

What does this do to the local economy?

 

 

Gives money to the mages and their mundane employees to spend on the the local economy, growing it

 

 

To social relations?

 

Good things- or better things than exploiting cheap labor and denying free association and employment does.

 

 

 

 

If it buys goods on the cheap from one area to send to another area's poor, what are the costs of getting it there?

 

Less than the costs of forcing mage-slaves to build on the expensive from one area to send to another area's poor, or else it wouldn't be cheap.

 

 

 

What are the politics of these things? etc.

 

More palatable than the chantry introducing a new policy of exploiting the labor of mages seeking freedom for Chantry oppresion.

 

 

Does a town Chantry or library have the capacity to teach classes?

 

Even if they don't, it is cheaper to expand and supply a Chantry than to establish an entirely new institution to do the same.

 

 

Are enough sisters qualified to teach?

 

As qualified as mages, which is to say there are no qualifications except compatibility to the financier's agenda.

 

 

Or are there enough tutors or university professors able to teach in these places?

 

 

There are practically no universities at all, even in the Circles/Colleges, so no. It also doesn't matter, since there's no requirement for tutors or university professors.
 

 

Are they willing to?

 

 

Since the Chantry is paying to educate, yes. People unwilling to be teachers won't take the job.

 

 

The College will have a plethora of mages educated not only in magic but in mundane studies and it has a motive for doing so. etc.

 

Not really- especially if they're being paid slave wages. Profit isn't the only the motive, but its a rather important one for free people.
 

 

So I don't buy an argument that the College is too expensive to carry out public works or that in some way its not "efficient".

 

Okay- but your buy-in is irrelevant to the efficiency of the system. Just like your opposition to the Chantry having power of the purse in your setup doesn't change that is has power of the purse.

 

 

One has to account for an endless number of possibilities to call something "efficient".

 

Not really- especially when you can identify unnecessary costs and interim steps.

 

The Chantry doesn't need to establish a parallel mage institution of questionable economic health and political inclination in order to do charity. Heck, it doesn't even need to do all that in order for mages to do charity.

 

Take your qualification question. Being a member of the College wouldn't make a mage qualified- being an educated person does. The organaization employing the person is irrelevant. If there truly is a shortage of capable educators, then the Chantry can employ a mage directly to be a teacher- rather than go through a rigamorole of paying a separate institution to pay the mage and encourage them to take the job.

[lil yonce]

@DeantheYoung; this is a response to the post I said I would get back to. I covered all but the last bit, and I can't get to the rest of it, or to the other posts tonight, but:

 

Why not just stick with a new, reconstituted Circle?-- Because it appears to revive the failed internal structures and decision-making apparatus of its last incarnation. 1) Templars managing w/mages; that seems to be part of it, and its not kosher. 2) A new College is not hemmed in by Chantry dogma, rules, templar oversight, its not weighed down by a traumatic history; the general character of oppression heavily based in religious doctrine.

 

And if Chantry spends money on templars, how is that also not a tax on the public in your view? Public service/tax why is there a difference here and not w/ what I proposed?

 

Mages made the rules and dogma the Chantry/Circle adheres to-- I don't think mages approved the message they were collectively responsible for the death of Andraste, nor the darkspawn, nor the widespread belief that magic is a curse from the Maker (things the Chantry did to smear Tevinter). Nor, judging by codices, did they advocate to govern w/ templars, or argue that templars have dominion over them by divine right. Or by other codices, avoid dealing w/ dead bodies or studying demonology for fear of blood magic. Nor, judging by its original use and the stringent opposition to it, did they push for tranquility. By its name, likely not the harrowing either. I doubt they pitched home incarceration devices phylacteries either. They also didn't sign off on the RoA.

 

Who makes it clear to the Chantry?-- Its got be something that's understood between the Chantry and the College/community. The recent history, the tension and distrust, the hunger for something more mage-managed, more fair to mages is present in Thedas to move in a direction away from mages under the Chantry umbrella.

 

What's so good about the College here?-- No templars. Far fewer/no Chantry ideological bounds to work within. Community/self-management. No entrenched distrust on the mages part about the organization out of longstanding discontent and recent upheaval. And if there is a Circle alternative, its an entirely self-selecting population. And it can work without the Chantry's support; the epilogues show that.

 

Chantry influence on war stuff-- I actually think its perfectly reasonable that Chantry-sponsorship permit some restraints on the College in this matter. Even if it doesn't fund the college at all, I think its a reasonable thing to influence because the Chantry has a fairly reasonable position on it. And there can be discussion about what's funded by the public and what isn't. You can even count the Chantry to some degree as a part of the public or local community.

 

Competition between the Circle and the College-- [EDIT: After re-reading, I realized I misinterpreted something you wrote and removed that part of this response. Hopefully no confusion here.] To avoid competition businesses often do work together. They collude, and they do it because its the rational thing to do. It needn't have negative connotations in this situation, however. It could be encouraged. They don't have to be centrally managed like OPEC or something to collude either. Collusion happens in every oligopoly. And because it is an oligopoly, the Circle and the College will know what the other is doing to some extent and plan with the other in mind already.

 

Why wouldn't the Chantry fund the Circle?-- I gave a reason why not in an early post. They could, but the Circle may not want them to. It may not desire a financial co-mingling or any closer association to the Chantry than it already has as an organization so closely tied and subordinate to it. And if College funding has an expiration date, or strings attached about public service, maybe they don't find it worthwhile to purse. Its up to the Circle, really.

 

Details of the College aren't known, but say it adopted a community/mage-management model. The directors may come together and decide they want to undertake community projects and support the College some financially to do it. They may ask the Chantry-- a convenient community fund-- to collaborate or bankroll this as maybe its something for the poor, for children, farmers, etc. the Chantry has been talking about doing but yet hasn't been able to do. It doesn't have to be only mages that push for support. The Chantry must then argue why it won't do that to the community.

 

And the local community isn't just nobles. Its never just nobles. Its also merchants, guilds, farmers, freeholders in Ferelden's case, and Seers in Rivan's, Grey Wardens in the Anderfels.

 

About templar costs-- I still don't get it. And Templars aren't the only cost. They aren't even the most relevant cost IMO. Cost in never only about money in economics. Social costs and externalities are also counted when discussing costs. For example, a group of mages and the Chantry agree to reconstitute the Circle-- they're two parties making a deal that works for themselves. But if a second group of mages-- a third party--  wants no parts of a reconstituted Circle but is also expected to join it/or bear the resulting costs of the deal between two outside parties (like suffer needless attacks from the Circle if they stay independent) there is an externality that must be properly considered. The agreement between the Chantry and the first group of mages must be adjusted, or another solution must be reached to handle the problem. With no solution, the Chantry Circle escapes its true costs and places a tax on the mages who don't want to engage the Circle like this but bear the costs anyway. Chantry support to the College could even be justified as compensation to the third party mages on these grounds, if one is inclined to argue that.

[Lumix19]

I believe that the College is opposed to the use of the Rite of Tranquility as a punishment, not if it is absolutely necessary and desired by the mage. Looking at codex entries like this one we can see that some people actually view Tranquility as a gift. Unless of course the College is going to deny Tranquility to those who ask for it. What will most likely be done away with completely is the Harrowing.

That is to say that the College may have some volunteer Tranquil in the future.

[Hazegurl]

I doubt the Harrowing is going anywhere.  It's the best chance at weeding out Mages who may easily succumb to demonic possession.  The Harrowing is even done at the Rivani Circle despite what their seers do.

 

What I find even more interesting about the wiki is that it states that the Rivani Circles are financially backed by Andrastian nobles. It makes me wonder if they even have tranquil there if they need outside support.

[Lumix19]

I doubt the Harrowing is going anywhere.  It's the best chance at weeding out Mages who may easily succumb to demonic possession.  The Harrowing is even done at the Rivani Circle despite what their seers do.

 

What I find even more interesting about the wiki is that it states that the Rivani Circles are financially backed by Andrastian nobles. It makes me wonder if they even have tranquil there if they need outside support.

I would point out that it is not used in Tevinter, and they get on perfectly fine. It also says that Rivaini Circles are similar to those elsewhere in Thedas, so apparently this funding is not unique. I really need to get the World of Thedas books one day.

[Boost32]

I would point out that it is not used in Tevinter, and they get on perfectly fine. It also says that Rivaini Circles are similar to those elsewhere in Thedas, so apparently this funding is not unique. I really need to get the World of Thedas books one day.

Lol

[Steelcan]

I would point out that it is not used in Tevinter, and they get on perfectly fine. It also says that Rivaini Circles are similar to those elsewhere in Thedas, so apparently this funding is not unique. I really need to get the World of Thedas books one day.

Tevinter is many things, perfectly fine, is not one of them

[Vit246]

What Lumix means by "perfectly fine" is that Tevinter is still relatively stable and functional. It has been for thousands of years. In spite of its morals. It may be an extreme model of mage freedom, but its one of many that works. For mages anyway.

At least try to recognize that.

[Boost32]

What Lumix means by "perfectly fine" is that Tevinter is still relatively stable and functional. It has been for thousands of years. In spite of its morals. It may be an extreme model of mage freedom, but its one of many that works. For mages anyway.
At least try to recognize that.

And the Circles worked in the South, there is no need to change it, specially to become closer to what Tevinter is.

[Wulfram]

Three annulments in 10 years is not a working system.

[Boost32]

Three annulments in 10 years is not a working system.

Because you said so?

[Wulfram]

Because you said so?

Because it involves the mass slaughter of innocent men, women and children? Because it led to widespread destruction even among non-Mages in Kirkwall? Because turning genocide into a routine inevitably leads to resistance?

[Hazegurl]

Tevinter is a functional society because abominations are rare period, not just for Tevinter but for Southern Thedas as well.   Tevinter also uses RoA, makes Tranquil out of rival mages, and use blood sacrifices to pay off demons.  And those being sacrificed are slaves, not other mages. Which is important as abominations are made out of Mages not regular people. And it's the demon controlling the Mage's body like a puppet, not actual physical possession.

 

In the Fereldan Circle, when abominations ran rampant, it was because of mages summoning demons and usually sacrificing other mages to pay the demons. Those Mages became possessed and turned into abominations. In Kirkwall, the mages sacrificed themselves to the demons to fight off Templars. While Orsino's spell most likely sucked up everything his Mage sacrifices had to turn himself into a Harvester.

 

But Magisters have gone too far and became abominations.

 

"And what of Magister Calanthus, that fool believed he could make himself the “Ascended Man” with blood magic? Thirty-three slaves died in that rite, and Calanthus became an abomination so horrific that his apprentices tore out their eyes at the sight of him."

http://dragonage.wik...ble_Blood_Magic

[Vit246]

delete. 

[Boost32]

Because it involves the mass slaughter of innocent men, women and children? Because it led to widespread destruction even among non-Mages in Kirkwall? Because turning genocide into a routine inevitably leads to resistance?

The first one caused by a mage who turned his own people in abomination, they were beyond salvation.

The second one where the Circle was infested with blood mages and abominations, they turned on everyone and no matter the side you took there were survivors ( who later thought summoning a spirit and making it kill was a good idea).

And in Rivain I will give you, it was not justified, but the first two were.

[thesuperdarkone2]

The first one caused by a mage who turned his own people in abomination, they were beyond salvation.

The second one where the Circle was infested with blood mages and abominations, they turned on everyone and no matter the side you took there were survivors ( who later thought summoning a spirit and making it kill was a good idea).

And in Rivain I will give you, it was not justified, but the first two were.

And how do you justify the magehunter shield annulment?

[Boost32]

And how do you justify the magehunter shield annulment?

This one?

"he third time the Right of Annulment was invoked on a Circle of Magi, in 3:09 Towers, Knight-Commander Gervasio of Antiva killed all of the city's mages for demonic possession. However, a massacre may have already occurred at the hands of Knight-Captain Nicolas, with the Right invoked as cover-up. The Seekers of Truth later apprehended Ser Nicholas, who had left the order to kill mages and admitted to having murdered over a hundred."

If the RoA was a cover up it doesn't have any justification, if it was to kill mages possessed then it was justified.
I know some templars abused mages, I think the system need urgents reforms, mages can be given more freedom and templars need more oversight, but I will never agree to free mages or give them autonomy, they already proved to me they cant be given total freedom. A good example the College clashing with the Circle when Cassandra is the Divine and they can only continue to exist because Vivienne showed them mercy.