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[Wulfram]

The first one caused by a mage who turned his own people in abomination, they were beyond salvation.

The second one where the Circle was infested with blood mages and abominations, they turned on everyone and no matter the side you took there were survivors ( who later thought summoning a spirit and making it kill was a good idea).

And in Rivain I will give you, it was not justified, but the first two were.

My argument is not that they were unjustified* but that they're a sign of a failing system. They're a symptom of the failure of the relationship between Mage and Templar that allowed the Circles to exist as something of a compromise.

With that compromise failing, the viable solutions that I can see were either setting Mages free of the Templars, or restricting their freedoms much more heavily in order to prevent the sorts of subversive activities that caused the Annulments. Continuing with the existing system doesn't seem viable to me - the collapse we saw was inevitable, one way or another.

*I'm not saying they were justified either, it's not really relevant to my point

[Boost32]

My argument is not that they were unjustified* but that they're a sign of a failing system. They're a symptom of the failure of the relationship between Mage and Templar that allowed the Circles to exist as something of a compromise.With that compromise failing, the viable solutions that I can see were either setting Mages free of the Templars, or restricting their freedoms much more heavily in order to prevent the sorts of subversive activities that caused the Annulments. Continuing with the existing system doesn't seem viable to me - the collapse we saw was inevitable, one way or another.*I'm not saying they were justified either, it's not really relevant to my point

And I disagree with you it was failling. The mudane people were protected and didnt suffer until the mages went free.

[Lumix19]

And I disagree with you it was failling. The mudane people were protected and didnt suffer until the mages went free.

Anders blew up the Chantry because he couldn't abide mage restrictions, how "protected" were the mundane people then?

And my point about Tevinter was that they don't suffer from crippling abominations which kind of reduces the justification and legitimacy of the Harrowing.

[Boost32]

Anders blew up the Chantry because he couldn't abide mage restrictions, how "protected" were the mundane people then?

And my point about Tevinter was that they don't suffer from crippling abominations which kind of reduces the justification and legitimacy of the Harrowing.

Because he wasnt in the Circle.

 

Show me where its said Tevinter doesnt suffer from Abominations and dont do the Harrowing.

[Hazegurl]

Anders blew up the Chantry because he couldn't abide mage restrictions, how "protected" were the mundane people then?

And my point about Tevinter was that they don't suffer from crippling abominations which kind of reduces the justification and legitimacy of the Harrowing.

Anders was free when he blew up the Chantry.

 

No it doesn't. You're ignoring the other factors going on in Tevinter including the fact that Blood Mages in Tevinter use non mages in their rituals when they go all out which reduces the number of abominations.

 

A blood mage sacrificing 15 regular people = 1 possible abomination

A blood mage sacrificing 15 mages = 16 possible abominations

 

Not a very good case for Tevinter.

 

And as Boost also points out, we don't even know if Tevinter does the Harrowing or not.  Dorian speaks of meeting a desire demon once, but idk if it was a part of his Harrowing.

[Wulfram]

And I disagree with you it was failling. The mudane people were protected and didnt suffer until the mages went free.

They did in Kirkwall. And they did in the Mage-Templar war, which was a direct consequence of the failure of the Circle system.

The circle system fails on all grounds that might be advanced for it.

It fails to ensure mages get appropriate training, instead making them hide away and be a danger to themselves and others
It interferes with the defence of Fereldan from the Blight - both in preventing King Cailan from getting more than token support, and then in the subsequent crisis.
It endangers the non-mage populace
It causes the death of innocent men, women and children who are mages

[Boost32]

They did in Kirkwall. And they did in the Mage-Templar war, which was a direct consequence of the failure of the Circle system.

The circle system fails on all grounds that might be advanced for it.

It fails to ensure mages get appropriate training, instead making them hide away and be a danger to themselves and others
It interferes with the defence of Fereldan from the Blight - both in preventing King Cailan from getting more than token support, and then in the subsequent crisis.
It endangers the non-mage populace
It causes the death of innocent men, women and children who are mages

 

The Circle mages didnt kill anyone in Kirkwall, the Mage-Templar war the mages werent in the Circles and you want those same people to be free and unwatched.

 

The Circle have worked for 900 years where mages free have always caused problems, Dalish, Rivain, Tevinter and even the College (go see the  ending with Mages allied and Cass ad Divine),

 

Really? The mages in the Circle get the best magical training, the College will not teach then different.

It didnt. No one believed it was a real Blight, until it was confirmed you can get the full support of the Circle.

Ofc it does, because mages in the Circles are more dangerous than free mages. Tevinter is a perfect example and every Dalish clan we met at least one mage f*cked up is another goos example.

And innocent non-mages will be safer with the mages free. Do I need to tell how many innocent people were killed by the free mages?

[Hazegurl]

They did in Kirkwall. And they did in the Mage-Templar war, which was a direct consequence of the failure of the Circle system.

The circle system fails on all grounds that might be advanced for it.

It fails to ensure mages get appropriate training, instead making them hide away and be a danger to themselves and others
It interferes with the defence of Fereldan from the Blight - both in preventing King Cailan from getting more than token support, and then in the subsequent crisis.
It endangers the non-mage populace
It causes the death of innocent men, women and children who are mages

Yes, they were injured by a free mage/abomination.  Who became one during his time with the Wardens, not the Circle.  And Redcliffe, by a demon possessed mage whose mother was hiding him from the Circle and ended up hiring a blood mage too weak to even pass his Harrowing to train him.

 

Wrong, the Circle is the best place for Mages to get training. Locking them away is a separate matter from the actual schooling they get.  You can disagree with locking them away, but you certainly can't use it to claim that they didn't receive adequate training.

 

The Blight is hardly a good argument.  If Mages were free they wouldn't be obligated to help at all.  Unless you believe the King should draft Mages during a Blight...which goes against the whole freedom thing.

 

The Circles never endangered the non mage populace.  If it did, do you honestly believe people would be okay with keeping them around for a long as they have?

 

Only during RoAs.  Which I believe only should be done at the last possible moment.  Which is what they are for.

[introverted_assassin]

We still talking about Viv in here or nah? i do enjoy the parry and joust of these debates...i'd nearly forgotten what or who this topic was about originally.

But since we're talking about anullments and such, I have never fully understood what or why that Circle in Rivain was anulled. Wondering if a kind soul exists that wishes to break it down to me so it can forever and consistently be broke. What little I know of it, I side-eyed.

To tie this into Viv, how do we think she would handle the RoA as Divine? Think she'd be quicker to turn a blind eye if there was a need for it constantly or would she shut it all down?

[Boost32]

We still talking about Viv in here or nah? i do enjoy the parry and joust of these debates...i'd nearly forgotten what or who this topic was about originally.

But since we're talking about anullments and such, I have never fully understood what or why that Circle in Rivain was anulled. Wondering if a kind soul exists that wishes to break it down to me so it can forever and consistently be broke. What little I know of it, I side-eyed.

To tie this into Viv, how do we think she would handle the RoA as Divine? Think she'd be quicker to turn a blind eye if there was a need for it constantly or would she shut it all down?

After Asunder the Seekers went to investigate the Circle in Rivain and found mages living with their families and practicing the Seer's traditions (female mages being possessed by spirits). They Called the RoA because of it.

 

If the Circle was lost to demonic possession, I think she would do it, she wouldnt do in other cases.

[Lumix19]

Because he wasnt in the Circle.

Show me where its said Tevinter doesnt suffer from Abominations and dont do the Harrowing.

What's your point about Anders? Even if he wasn't in the Circle he was still protesting mage abuses, and he wasn't the only one, the Enchanter who tried to assassinate the Divine? Numerous apostates who tried to flee the Circle and became abominations/blood mages to keep their freedom? Not symptoms of a functional Circle in my opinion.

Calpernia makes no mention of having undergone the Harrowing in her short story. And if Tevinter truly did suffer from abominations it's magisters wouldn't sit around drinking tea, they'd be dead.

[Boost32]

What's your point about Anders? Even if he wasn't in the Circle he was still protesting mage abuses, and he wasn't the only one, the Enchanter who tried to assassinate the Divine? Numerous apostates who tried to flee the Circle and became abominations/blood mages to keep their freedom? Not symptoms of a functional Circle in my opinion.

Calpernia makes no mention of having undergone the Harrowing in her short story. And if Tevinter truly did suffer from abominations it's magisters wouldn't sit around drinking tea, they'd be dead.

The point is simple, if he was in the Circle he wouldnt had done it. The Enchanter had the help of a unknown third party. And numerous mages stayed in the Chantry and didnt want to rebel, they are symptons of a functional Circle.

 

Calpernia was a slave, she didnt attend to the Circle in Tevinter.

[Wulfram]

The Circle mages didnt kill anyone in Kirkwall, the Mage-Templar war the mages werent in the Circles and you want those same people to be free and unwatched.

The conflict in Kirkwall is not contained to the Gallows, there is fighting all over the city. Plus Anders is a product of the Circle system.

The Mage-Templar war is entirely the consequence of the Circle system. You can't dodge responsibility for the systems failures by saying that it only counts when its working.
 

The Circle have worked for 900 years where mages free have always caused problems, Dalish, Rivain, Tevinter and even the College (go see the  ending with Mages allied and Cass ad Divine),

We have little evidence that the Circles "worked" in the past - that is, that they reduced the number of negative incidents involving magic - we do know they have failed utterly whenever we encounter them
 

Really? The mages in the Circle get the best magical training, the College will not teach then different.

But lots of mages don't go to the Circles, because they're Orwellian nightmares, when they might well go to the College. The Circles ability to drive away mages is a major flaw.

It didnt. No one believed it was a real Blight, until it was confirmed you can get the full support of the Circle.

Real blight or not, the mages wanted to send more people and Greagoir blocked them. And then it took a reckless miracle from the Hero of Fereldan to save the mages from the Circle - and even then you've got some of the best warriors in Fereldan held back guarding the Circle.

Ofc it does, because mages in the Circles are more dangerous than free mages. Tevinter is a perfect example and every Dalish clan we met at least one mage f*cked up is another goos example.

All the deaths in Kirkwall and in the Mage Templar war are caused by the Circle system. And all the deaths in Redcliffe.

And innocent non-mages will be safer with the mages free. Do I need to tell how many innocent people were killed by the free mages?

They were killed in the war the Templars and the Circle system caused. Get rid of those, and there's no reason to think people will be anything but safer.

[Lumix19]

Yes, they were injured by a free mage/abomination. Who became one during his time with the Wardens, not the Circle. And Redcliffe, by a demon possessed mage whose mother was hiding him from the Circle and ended up hiring a blood mage too weak to even pass his Harrowing to train him.

Wrong, the Circle is the best place for Mages to get training. Locking them away is a separate matter from the actual schooling they get. You can disagree with locking them away, but you certainly can't use it to claim that they didn't receive adequate training.

The Blight is hardly a good argument. If Mages were free they wouldn't be obligated to help at all. Unless you believe the King should draft Mages during a Blight...which goes against the whole freedom thing.

The Circles never endangered the non mage populace. If it did, do you honestly believe people would be okay with keeping them around for a long as they have?

Only during RoAs. Which I believe only should be done at the last possible moment. Which is what they are for.

The king doesn't have to have the right to conscript, the GWs already have that right. And if the College is deemed the legitimate successor of the Circle than the treaty would apply to them as well.

[The Baconer]

The king doesn't have to have the right to conscript, 

 

They surely do. 

[Barquiel]

I don't really see why the college would continue the harrowing in its current form, it was a pointless test that was nothing more than the templar’s way of having more control over the mages.

I mean, the test itself does not prove or disprove that a mage can overcome the effects of any demon. The Harrowing is something that no mages are prepared for, after all. Rather, a mage is dragged out of bed in the middle of the night, with no warning beforehand, and not told what they are going to face until just before they're thrown into the Fade....and it seemed from the commentary between the mage-warden and others during the origin story that they knew fairly little about demons and the fade. At the very least mages should be told what awaits them, and prepared for how to deal with a variety of demons from the start.

[Vit246]

We still talking about Viv in here or nah? i do enjoy the parry and joust of these debates...i'd nearly forgotten what or who this topic was about originally.

But since we're talking about anullments and such, I have never fully understood what or why that Circle in Rivain was anulled. Wondering if a kind soul exists that wishes to break it down to me so it can forever and consistently be broke. What little I know of it, I side-eyed.

To tie this into Viv, how do we think she would handle the RoA as Divine? Think she'd be quicker to turn a blind eye if there was a need for it constantly or would she shut it all down?

 

I would not put it past Vivienne to turn a blind eye to Annulments on Circles that were not necessarily lost to demons, but more like Circles that were not toeing the line according to her.

[Boost32]

The conflict in Kirkwall is not contained to the Gallows, there is fighting all over the city. Plus Anders is a product of the Circle system.

The Mage-Templar war is entirely the consequence of the Circle system. You can't dodge responsibility for the systems failures by saying that it only counts when its working.
 

We have little evidence that the Circles "worked" in the past - that is, that they reduced the number of negative incidents involving magic - we do know they have failed utterly whenever we encounter them
 

But lots of mages don't go to the Circles, because they're Orwellian nightmares, when they might well go to the College. The Circles ability to drive away mages is a major flaw.


Real blight or not, the mages wanted to send more people and Greagoir blocked them. And then it took a reckless miracle from the Hero of Fereldan to save the mages from the Circle - and even then you've got some of the best warriors in Fereldan held back guarding the Circle.


All the deaths in Kirkwall and in the Mage Templar war are caused by the Circle system. And all the deaths in Redcliffe.


They were killed in the war the Templars and the Circle system caused. Get rid of those, and there's no reason to think people will be anything but safer.

Because those mages were roaming free in Kirkwall, and it was quickly contained by the templars and the majority of the battle satyed in the Circle. Do you hear how hundreds of people died in the confront? I know you dont.

Anders is a bioproduct of himself, he was given enough care within the Circle and was spoiled by Irving. Had Irving punished him and made him Tranquil, the people he killed would still be alive.

If the mages had stayed in the Circle it wouldnt have happened, the war was cause by several retarded people (Rhys, Adrian, Fiona, Lambert and Justinia), not by the system.

 

Yes we know, the RoA was a rare event, several mages talk how well they were in the Circles and the majority of the magical disaster were caused by mages outside the Circle.

 

Please show me where it said the mages go to the College because they fear the Circle. And the College attacking the Circle? Why you ignore this?

 

How the mages would have saved the day in Ostagar? And how it would have affected whar Uldred did?

 

The deaths outside the Circle were caused by Anders alone, he was the one responsible for taking lives, you blaming the Circle will not change the truth. The ones who died at the Circle are responsability of the Circle, still the situations was quickly contained by the templars. And Redcliff was caused by a free mage, not the Circle, if the boy was in the Circle it wouldnt have happened.

 

The war was caused by mages in my POV. Still I was not talking bout the mage-templar war, I was talking theinumerous accidents caused by mages (werewolf curse, undeads in Redcliff,etc).

The king doesn't have to have the right to conscript, the GWs already have that right. And if the College is deemed the legitimate successor of the Circle than the treaty would apply to them as well.

OFC a king have the right to conscript anyone in his land to fight for the kingdom.

[Hazegurl]

We still talking about Viv in here or nah? i do enjoy the parry and joust of these debates...i'd nearly forgotten what or who this topic was about originally.

But since we're talking about anullments and such, I have never fully understood what or why that Circle in Rivain was anulled. Wondering if a kind soul exists that wishes to break it down to me so it can forever and consistently be broke. What little I know of it, I side-eyed.

To tie this into Viv, how do we think she would handle the RoA as Divine? Think she'd be quicker to turn a blind eye if there was a need for it constantly or would she shut it all down?

Yeah it would probably be a good idea to steer the thread back to Vivi. lol!!

 

She's tough as nails so I think she would shut it down quickly but I think she would investigate thoroughly before making such a decision.  She cares deeply for the Circle mages under her so I think she will continue to do so even if she has to call an RoA. 

 

The king doesn't have to have the right to conscript, the GWs already have that right. And if the College is deemed the legitimate successor of the Circle than the treaty would apply to them as well.

 

The GW have a right to conscript Circle Mages as it is a contract binding The Circle of Magi to aid the Blight. Not all Mages, but the Circle. No Circle equals no obligation to aid the GW unless the GW draw up a brand new contract binding the College to aid them. Something they are free to turn down.  And quite honestly, how would it be any different than the Circle? It would most likely still depend on which mages were willing to face down an Archdemon. Which means Mages could still have a low turn out depending on who is needed at the College et al.

 

And if we're talking about free mages sans any organizations then the GW wouldn't be able to conscript any Mage unless one was a criminal or volunteered.

 

I'm not getting how free mages = massive mage turn out for Blight.  Unless the King conscripts them in large numbers himself and I doubt any free mage can turn down a King and think they can keep operating freely in their domain.

[The Baconer]

Because those mages were roaming free in Kirkwall, and it was quickly contained by the templars and the majority of the battle satyed in the Circle. Do you hear how hundreds of people died in the confront? I know you dont.

 

Should we then assume Anders' bomb only killed the 9 individuals pictured? 

[Boost32]

Should we then assume Anders' bomb only killed the 9 individuals pictured?

The game told us he killed hundreds.
I do think innocent people were killed by abominations, but I dont think the abominations killed a large number of people.

[introverted_assassin]

After Asunder the Seekers went to investigate the Circle in Rivain and found mages living with their families and practicing the Seer's traditions (female mages being possessed by spirits). They Called the RoA because of it.

If the Circle was lost to demonic possession, I think she would do it, she wouldnt do in other cases.

they just killed them? damn. that makes me side eye it even MORE. Seekers would have all kinds of problems with Yoruba good lordt. See I thought that there were only allegations and paranoia on the Templars part there and they went in to shut it down originally before the Seekers came but the Mages gave them that work so they fabricated ish to get the Seekers involved. Well sh*t.

[The Baconer]

The game told us he killed hundreds.
I do think innocent people were killed by abominations, but I dont think the abominations killed a large number of people.

 

It's Templars vs. Mages, not Templars vs. Abominations. That's the whole gamut: stray spells, unstable energies, blood magic, demons crossing the veil or being summoned, and abominations. 

 

Ironically, Orsino is the one who urges the mages accompanying him to make for the Gallows. The mitigation of civilian casualties due to the battle being contained within the Circle was hardly due to the Templar's tactics. 

[Wulfram]

Mages driven to rebel against the Circles, like Fiona, Anders, Adrian and Uldred, are a failure of the Circle. Mages who don't get proper training because they or their parents are afraid of the Circles (like Feynriel, Connor or the kid in the Chateau d'Onterre) are a failure of the circle.

You can't just wash your hands of them if they're not in the circles at the time. They're all consequences of the broken and failing system.

The mages could have helped at Ostagar by incinerating Darkspawn. They're good at that. Admittedly it requires believing that Loghain wasn't planning treachery anyway.

[Lumix19]

They surely do.

People should read what I actually wrote. I said they don't have to have it to fight the Blight, I didn't say they didn't have it to fight general wars etc. The GW's have treaties and the right of conscription so Monarchs don't have to conscript during times of the Blight.