1041 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

Mages driven to rebel against the Circles, like Fiona, Anders, Adrian and Uldred, are a failure of the Circle. Mages who don't get proper training because they or their parents are afraid of the Circles (like Feynriel, Connor or the kid in the Chateau d'Onterre) are a failure of the circle.

 

You're trying to move the posts. Connor was never in a Circle and therefore you cannot blame Circle training on him but the weak Blood Mage criminal his mother hired. If you send Fenyriel to the Circle, they allow The Keeper, Hawke, et al to work with him when he is in danger, they don't just kill him because he can't wake up.  Then they allow him to travel to Tevinter...Hm...so much for being locked up with no place to go.

 

The Mage rebellion is a two way street.  I agree it's a byproduct of the current system failing but also due to the single braincell all of them shared.
 

You can't just wash your hands of them if they're not in the circles at the time. They're all consequences of the broken and failing system.

 

And you can't blame the Circle's trainings for the actions of those who were not in one. That's like blaming Universities for your lack of knowledge even though you've never attended one.

 

The mages could have helped at Ostagar by incinerating Darkspawn. They're good at that. Admittedly it requires believing that Loghain wasn't planning treachery anyway.

 

This makes zero sense.  As mages were at Ostagar.  But no amount of Mages were gonna stop that darkspawn, partly because of Loghain's treachery and also because Calian was a moron.

 

People should read what I actually wrote. I said they don't have to have it to fight the Blight, I didn't say they didn't have it to fight general wars etc. The GW's have treaties and the right of conscription so Monarchs don't have to conscript during times of the Blight.

 

 

You said Kings don't have a right to conscript. They can do whatever they like for any reason they like even during a Blight. It's just that GWs handle conscription matters during a Blight and a King has no reason to interfere with the treaties...if he wants to live.  However, GW treaties bind the Circle of Magi, not individual Mages.

[Lumix19]

The point is simple, if he was in the Circle he wouldnt had done it. The Enchanter had the help of a unknown third party. And numerous mages stayed in the Chantry and didnt want to rebel, they are symptons of a functional Circle.

Calpernia was a slave, she didnt attend to the Circle in Tevinter.

Kind of defeats the point of the Harrowing though doesn't it? It's supposed to test mages right? If mages are dangerous and need to prove they can't be seduced by demons, why would slave mages be excluded?

[BloodKaiden]

It's Templars vs. Mages, not Templars vs. Abominations. That's the whole gamut: stray spells, unstable energies, blood magic, demons crossing the veil or being summoned, and abominations. 
 
Ironically, Orsino is the one who urges the mages accompanying him to make for the Gallows. The mitigation of civilian casualties due to the battle being contained within the Circle was hardly due to the Templar's tactics.

I don't care how anyone spins it. When it comes to the Templar vs Mage war both parties are responsible for civilian casualties. There is no which side was more responsible because at the end of the day both parties are selfish as f**k and trying to justify their actions at the expense of innocent life's is foolhardy in itself. War is war, you can't do it without getting blood on your hands. Meredith and Orsino were both blinded by their causes that really the safety for the mundanes didn't matter.

Being an apostate with someone similar to Flemeth or Daddy Hawke in the ways of teaching is very more appealing than dealing with two groups of idiots in a broken system imo. #ApostateLife

[The Baconer]

People should read what I actually wrote. I said they don't have to have it to fight the Blight, I didn't say they didn't have it to fight general wars etc. The GW's have treaties and the right of conscription so Monarchs don't have to conscript during times of the Blight.

 

They certainly do conscript even for the Blights. These wars are basically never exclusively fought by the Wardens. 

[The Baconer]

I don't care how anyone spins it. When it comes to the Templar vs Mage war both parties are responsible for civilian casualties. There is no which side was more responsible because at the end of the day both parties are selfish as f**k and trying to justify their actions at the expense of innocent life's is foolhardy in itself. 

 

Did I say otherwise? 
 

Though, if we're talking about the Kirkwall event in specifically (which is what the post was discussing), then yes, one party held more responsibility in particular. 

[Lumix19]

You're trying to move the posts. Connor was never in a Circle and therefore you cannot blame Circle training on him but the weak Blood Mage criminal his mother hired. If you send Fenyriel to the Circle, they allow The Keeper, Hawke, et al to work with him when he is in danger, they don't just kill him because he can't wake up. Then they allow him to travel to Tevinter...Hm...so much for being locked up with no place to go.

The Mage rebellion is a two way street. I agree it's a byproduct of the current system failing but also due to the single braincell all of them shared.

And you can't blame the Circle's trainings for the actions of those who were not in one. That's like blaming Universities for your lack of knowledge even though you've never attended one.


This makes zero sense. As mages were at Ostagar. But no amount of Mages were gonna stop that darkspawn, partly because of Logahin's treachery and also because Calian was a moron.

I don't think anyone's claiming that the Circle doesn't effectively protect against magical threats. The issue is is that mages don't want to be part of the Circle and go to great lengths to avoid it. And clearly that training can be removed the actual environment since many mages have been trained in Circle ways without actually being in the Circle.

[Lumix19]

They certainly do conscript even for the Blights. These wars are basically never exclusively fought by the Wardens.

Well of course, but because the Wardens have treaties. No conscription required.

[Hazegurl]

I believe his point is that the Circle's training is bad.  But only moved it to a position of "because Mages wish to avoid the Circle".  Hawke and Bethany are great examples of Mages receiving Circle training by a strong qualified Mage without being in a Circle.  But Connor, never received good Circle training, he received the training of a weak Mage who was not even qualified to stay a Mage. 

[Lumix19]

I believe his point is that the Circle's training is bad. But only moved it to a position of "because Mages wish to avoid the Circle". Hawke and Bethany are great examples of Mages receiving Circle training by a strong qualified Mage without being in a Circle. But Connor, never received good Circle training, he received the training of a weak Mage who was not even qualified to stay a Mage.

Say what you want of Jowan but he doesn't come off as an inept mage, just makes stupid choices. And whether or not he's qualified depends on your definition.
But yes he did receive inadequate training. It's the sort of situation the Circle induces though, if you're a mage you get taken away and stripped of your nobility, if you hide what are the chances of finding a proper tutor? Although based on the lore that followed there are instances where mages found proper tutors so maybe Isolde was just unlucky.

[BloodKaiden]

Did I say otherwise? 
 
Though, if we're talking about the Kirkwall event in specifically (which is what the post was discussing), then yes, one party held more responsibility in particular.

You mean the party of stupidity? Certainly. We go through how many years in Kirkwall, six/seven? And both Meredith and Orsino actions only escalated the problems between Templars and Mages. /slowclap

Cassandra was right, the Seekers knew how bad it was and did nothing for Kirkwall. Might as well burn Kirkwall down and leave it to the dust themselves.

[Wulfram]

I believe his point is that the Circle's training is bad.  But only moved it to a position of "because Mages wish to avoid the Circle".  Hawke and Bethany are great examples of Mages receiving Circle training by a strong qualified Mage without being in a Circle.  But Connor, never received good Circle training, he received the training of a weak Mage who was not even qualified to stay a Mage.

No, my point is, and has always been, that the Circle's unpleasantness effectively discourages people from getting training there.

Keeping the number of untrained mages low is a key requirement of any decent system, and the Circle does not seem to do a good job. If it emerges that the College doesn't require mages to be trained because FREEDOM!!, I'll call that idiotic.

I've never criticised the Circles training once it gets a mage. I don't know if its ideal, but I'm sure its a hell of a lot better than a bunch of untrained mages going about.

[lil yonce]

To get back to the end of a response to Dean started here:
 

Dean the Young said:
First, the matter of history: The Mage Rebellion wasn't a matter of the Will of the Circle coming against the Will of the Chantry. It was a matter of the mages coming up against the Templars- and the Templars not reflecting the will of the Chantry. Templar abuses and excess oppression were not the will of the Chantry.

Very important, templars ultimately answer to the Chantry in hierarchy, and very well-documented, the Chantry pulls its strings w/ lyrium addiction. It could have nipped in the bud its templars' excesses and abuses long ago. It didn't. It bears tremendous responsibility, complicity in templar corruption. And monkey business aside, there is no way it did not realize the dysfunctional nature and disastrous potential of the Circle's templar/mage-management across hundreds of years of sanctioning it. If the Chantry was interested in curtailing abuses or protecting the integrity of the circles and templars, long ago it could have acted, intervened, adjusted to do so. And who said templars have dominion over mages by divine right? Even if templars picked up this idea on their own, that attitude and some behaviors stemming from it were allowed to proliferate-- and we know the Chantry had interest in fostering these kinds of beliefs and practicing a general anti-mage culture. Yes, Justinia tried to change it some, but her efforts come at the end of a long train of neglect. At worst, this was de facto extension of the Chantry's will, or at best, the Chantry proved totally inept at promoting its will here. And there was a more general mage frustration w/ the Chantry. Its the basis for the Libertarian fraternity, and it led the rebellion. There is also this: "If the Circles, no matter how they are managed, do not—perhaps cannot—function as intended, what is next? There are no easy answers. The events of recent years have forced me to reexamine my views on freedom. As Aequitarians, we have always advocated self-control and cooperation with the Chantry, but this approach may no longer serve. I must consider that our Libertarian brothers and sisters had the right of it all along. Look at the strife and chaos that now consumes our world. Fighting for independence, for a better system, may not improve our situation. But it cannot make it any worse." So the rebellion is about more than templar abuses for many mages.
 

Next, your argument-If the Chantry will dictate to the Circle and enforce its will upon it, then it's going to do the same with the College. It's not a matter of being free of dogmatism- it becomes a matter of 'does the Chantry have the will and the means to do so?'If the Chantry would do it to the Circles despite the very real autonomy the Circles have demonstrated even in the face of the Templars, it's demonstrating that it has the will to enforce its views on the mages. If the Chantry has the power of the purse, it has the means to do so to the College- in addition to all the other assets the Circle can manage.

I don't agree with this completely. It could dictate to the Circle because of the Circle's setup, it had templar enforcers, and because the larger culture offered no supports to mages. The College will be set up differently, there are no templars, and the culture is, in some endings, now more accepting of mages. Plus, not all funds will or have to come from the Chantry- that's been said. There are ways to limit its influence.
 

Corruption in the College will occur by simple fact that the College is made and composed by corruptible (if not already corrupt) people and will have systemic interests and self-interests to pursue over the common good. If there's money to be gained from Tranquility, the College of free and independent mages will have the same motive as the Circle. If there's a risk of the Chantry pressing its views in the Circles, there's a risk of the Chantry pressings its views on the College.It's not a matter of 'why would it be as corrupt'- it's a question of 'why would it NOT be as corrupt.'

Not to misrepresent you here, and correct me if I am, but this sounds like a commonly used "human nature" argument I disagree with. People are many things, its true, and I don't argue that College mages are somehow morally superior, or that they won't face conflicting interests, but wired for selfishness and disregard when a deal seems too good to pass up, or when an extra dollar can be made, I don't buy it. And if they have motive for mass tranquil exploitation, they are equally motivated against it. Just because there's money to be made doesn't mean its the best way to make money, or that its worth it to make money that way, or that somehow its inherently the rational thing for them, a group interested in protecting their ideals and freedoms from such bastardization, to do. And we can limit the more intrusive influences as I've said.

[Boost32]

It's Templars vs. Mages, not Templars vs. Abominations. That's the whole gamut: stray spells, unstable energies, blood magic, demons crossing the veil or being summoned, and abominations.

Ironically, Orsino is the one who urges the mages accompanying him to make for the Gallows. The mitigation of civilian casualties due to the battle being contained within the Circle was hardly due to the Templar's tactics.

And who killed the abominations? Hawke cant have killed them all.

Mages driven to rebel against the Circles, like Fiona, Anders, Adrian and Uldred, are a failure of the Circle. Mages who don't get proper training because they or their parents are afraid of the Circles (like Feynriel, Connor or the kid in the Chateau d'Onterre) are a failure of the circle.You can't just wash your hands of them if they're not in the circles at the time. They're all consequences of the broken and failing system.The mages could have helped at Ostagar by incinerating Darkspawn. They're good at that. Admittedly it requires believing that Loghain wasn't planning treachery anyway.

We are going in Circles (no pun intended) now. I disagree those are the Circle fault and you think they are, lets just leave at that.
And you still ignoring the end where the College attacks the Circle, it is ofc a better way to learn how to be responsible.

[Boost32]

Kind of defeats the point of the Harrowing though doesn't it? It's supposed to test mages right? If mages are dangerous and need to prove they can't be seduced by demons, why would slave mages be excluded?

This we shall maybe know in the next Dragon Age.

[Lumix19]

This we shall maybe know in the next Dragon Age.

True.

[The Baconer]

And who killed the abominations? Hawke cant have killed them all.

 

Hawke could have certainly killed most of them. 

 

But then, who brought them out on the streets in the first place? 

[Boost32]

Hawke could have certainly killed most of them. 

 

But then, who brought them out on the streets in the first place? 

Orsino

[The Baconer]

Orsino

 

He told them to go back to the Gallows though :> 

 

Try again. 

[Boost32]

He told them to go back to the Gallows though :> 

 

Try again. 

The mages were in the Street because of him.

[Hazegurl]

No, my point is, and has always been, that the Circle's unpleasantness effectively discourages people from getting training there.

Keeping the number of untrained mages low is a key requirement of any decent system, and the Circle does not seem to do a good job. If it emerges that the College doesn't require mages to be trained because FREEDOM!!, I'll call that idiotic.

I've never criticised the Circles training once it gets a mage. I don't know if its ideal, but I'm sure its a hell of a lot better than a bunch of untrained mages going about.

It only discourages morons. There is nothing stopping a Mage from seeking Training at the Circle then moving to Tevinter. Or a better Circle if they dislike the one they are in.  As we've seen in game. And according to Inquisition, your noble Mage could go home.  You have no proof of how many untrained Mages exist and you have no proof of how that correlates to every Circle in Thedas to judge whether or not the Circles were doing a good job.

 

---------------------

As for DA2 and the fighting in the streets. From what I recall Orsino brought the Mages out, to protest the room searches ( ), although this seems odd to me that they would be on on the streets and not already at the Gallows. I chalk it up to gameplay reasons. The RoA is called on the streets *facepalm* and the Templars began killing Mages on the freaking street, a stupid move, Then Orsino lead some of the Mages back to the Gallows for a last stand.  He didn't have a large number with him though, as mages were trying to escape the Circle and were fighting on the streets. I can't really blame them for not wanting to be holed up in the Circle once the RoA was called. I do blame them for summoning demons on the streets though. 

 

I basically blame both parties for Kirkwall. What a derpy ending choice.

[The Baconer]

The mages were in the Street because of him.

 

The abominations weren't. 

 

You can't have a genuine interest in avoiding civilian deaths, and then bring the crossfire right to them. 

[Boost32]

The abominations weren't.

 

You can't have a genuine interest in avoiding civilian deaths, and then bring the crossfire right to them. 

The abominations were mages who left the Circle, they werent there because of the templars.

[The Baconer]

The abominations were mages who left the Circle, they werent there because of the templars.

 

The ones who became abominations during the rebellion did so because of the declaration of Annulment, yes. 

[Boost32]

The ones who became abominations during the rebellion did so because of the declaration of Annulment, yes.

They became Abominations because they were weak.

[The Baconer]

They became Abominations because they were weak.

 

Even better excuse to go abomination then, when Meredith has announced your death sentence? That only reinforced my point. 

 

Of course, again we're ignoring the mages who, instead of going abomination, resorted to more "conventional" forms of destructive magic that could bring harm to civilians.