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[In Exile]

Please man, do you at least know what you are talking about ?


And the ending:
As the Inquisition forces returned to civilian life, its mages pushed for independence from the Circle. Divine Victoria, secure on her Sunburst Throne - and with a rebuilt Chantry Circle at her disposal - chose to be magnanimous. She grudgingly allowed them to remain as the College of Enchanters, as a mark of her regard for the Inquisition. For the next few years, the College and the Circle coexisted peacefully, if barely.

There is no rebellion at the end and she united the Chantry. The Circle didnt break away, the mages of the Inquisition didnt go back to the Circle and formed the College. She let them be, she could have easily crushed them if she wanted.

 

It takes a certain kind of willful denial to refuse to lead between the lines. Just what exactly do you think "pushed for independence from the Circle" means? The last "push for independence" was the mage-templar war. Notwithstanding the doey eye rhetoric ("choose to be magnanimous") the very next line shows how little choice she had in the matter ("grudgingly allowed them to remain as the College of Enchanters"). And then look at the very next line ("the College and the Circle coexisted peacefully, if barely). 

 

That's an open rebellion on her hands. But it wasn't the Trespasser epilogue to which I refer, but rather the DA:I epilogue where the Inquisitor and Viviene have a poor rapport. 

 

The mages broke away, to avoid open war Viviene saved face by creating a parallel and notionally free organization (the College) and the College and Circle were on the brink of war with each other (and, by necessary implication, the Chantry). 

 

Whatever mental fantasy you want to build about her "crushing them easily" is just your own fantasy. She didn't crush them, she didn't have much apparent choice in allowing the to leave, and the end result of all of it was boderline rebellion. 

[In Exile]

*watched vid*

 

Whelp, it seems like Leliana is facing more resistance than I thought, or had at the start of Trespasser.  According to Giselle, her reign over the last two years seem to be the weakest compared to Cass and Viv.

 

Which is consistent with the DA:I epilogue. In either version of Leliana, she has an uprising of hardliners on her hands. The only difference is in how she deals with them, and how much blood ends up flowing. 

[In Exile]

Vivi didn't get to where she is on short term goals. And I suggest you check out the slides that mention Mages having far more power than they had before, which should be consolidated through her to keep the Mages from running rampant and overly competing with each other.  Her reign isn't a mess.  It's facing natural and realistic resistance, unlike Leliana who murder knifes everyone who disagrees with her, run her halls red with blood, yet isn't a tyrant and doesn't face opposition from anyone. 

 

Viv has nothing but short-term goals. Short-term not in the sense of years, but in the sense of being centered on her own lifetime. There's no principle to her beyond naked self-advancement, and the only reason she even purports to support a principle - which amounts to supporting the current power structure - is because she's lived her entire life hitching her wagon to that particular horse. The closest she gets to having a coherent principle is her view that that the current power structure is great for the people who know how to navigate it. 

 

More to the point, you're confusing the fact that someone has a principle they dedicated themselves to with it being a good thing that they're dedicated to a principle. Meredith was very dedicated to her principles, and she was very much an unhinged loon. My point is just that unlike Cassandra and Leliana, Viviene wants to be Divine because she just wants to accrue power, and the efficacy of her rule is more a function of competence as an administrator than some plan to implement an agenda. She's not accruing power for the sake of some external long-term goal - long-term in the sense of extending past her own naturla life, or for the apparent sake of others. 

 

As to her reign not being a mess, that's outright contradicted. Both by the DA:I epilogue slides - whether the Inquisitor likes her or not - and by the Trespasser slides, which as I've pointed out above has her facing another mage uprising within the first few years of her reign. Every Divine Victoria faces instability.

 

 

The war was fought by two parties and therefore it's up to the standing party to make amends for the destruction they've caused.  If you think the Mages didn't hurt anyone then why did the Inquisition have to pay reparations for their mistakes? The Inquisition paying for them like a parent with an unruly child does not show me that the Mages are on the road to redemption.

 

No. This isn't about the war. The templars committed atrocities - actual genocides included - for a few centuries. The scale of horrors - and moral blame - just isn't reducible to the mage-templar war. The only mages that are on the same level of moral culpability as the current living members of the templar order are, basically, Anders and the coo-coo for cocopuffs blood mages in DA2. But if we're talking about organizations, well, the templars don't have a leg to stand on. 

[Bleachrude]

I would point out that it is not used in Tevinter, and they get on perfectly fine. It also says that Rivaini Circles are similar to those elsewhere in Thedas, so apparently this funding is not unique. I really need to get the World of Thedas books one day.

 

I could've sworn Dorian himself mentions he was Harrowed. As for Tranquility, I will point out once again, by Chantry law, harrowed mages can NOT be made Tranquil. Even in Kirkwall, Alain  was hiding the fact that he was using tanquility and when he sent a letter to Meredith for using tranquility as a "final solution", she rejected it out right?

 

Seriously, why do we only focus on Templars who in0game are considered insane/extreme by even other Templars and consider this the standard for Templars, yet tarring all free mages as Tevinter wannabee is being "discriminatory".

[Boost32]

Assuming it was even a small force, probably not. Not Reds. 
 
 

 
No, these were conspiracies of the scale "woah, a bunch of our guys were found dead in the Chantry and nobody seems to know why", "woah, why are there so many Tranquil that are not logged in our records... why don't we have any records?", "woah, how did a bunch of our guys strike out with mages and break into the house of the most important figure in Kirkwall" etc. 
 
The Gallows was never an orderly or properly supervised force by any means. 
 
 

 
No, because it's not facilitating the system that actually made Kirkwall the blood-mage-and-abomination capital of southern Thedas. As I told you before, it's treating the cause vs. treating the symptom.

If it wasnt then how Cullen and the rest of Kirkwall didn't know?

And the culprint was already dead for years. Cullen was the new Commander.

You really think after "curing the cause" would make the symptons go away? Those mages were cancers, they would continue the same way.

Besides you can't dismiss things like this as "bad writing" and then pretend they don't exist. Bad or not it's canon.

I'm not denying anything, it did happen but still bad writing to force Viscount Hawke in the same path. There are a lot of incoeherences.

It takes a certain kind of willful denial to refuse to lead between the lines. Just what exactly do you think "pushed for independence from the Circle" means? The last "push for independence" was the mage-templar war. Notwithstanding the doey eye rhetoric ("choose to be magnanimous") the very next line shows how little choice she had in the matter ("grudgingly allowed them to remain as the College of Enchanters"). And then look at the very next line ("the College and the Circle coexisted peacefully, if barely). 
 
That's an open rebellion on her hands. But it wasn't the Trespasser epilogue to which I refer, but rather the DA:I epilogue where the Inquisitor and Viviene have a poor rapport. 
 
The mages broke away, to avoid open war Viviene saved face by creating a parallel and notionally free organization (the College) and the College and Circle were on the brink of war with each other (and, by necessary implication, the Chantry). 
 
Whatever mental fantasy you want to build about her "crushing them easily" is just your own fantasy. She didn't crush them, she didn't have much apparent choice in allowing the to leave, and the end result of all of it was boderline rebellion.

Lol, the only person with mental fantasy here is you.
She could already crushed a bigger mage rebellion before and now you think she was cornered by a few mages? Are you serious?
Trying to dismiss the epilogue to fit your headcanon doesn't make a compelling argument.

[Boost32]

And I almost forget how Vivienne crushed the College with a weaker Circle when Cass is Divine, yet if she is Divine, has a more powerful Circle and face a weaker College, she was cornered by them, lol.

[Scuttlebutt101]

I could've sworn Dorian himself mentions he was Harrowed.

Yeah, he talks about it in the Fade during Here Lies The Abyss. For him it was basically "I met a marvelous Desire Demon. We chatted and drank wine and then he tried to possess me." If Vivienne is in the party he even remarks about how Southern Harrowings are more taxing than in Tevinter. Either way, Tevinter circles send their apprentices to the Fade, same as Southern Circles. Eliminating Harrowings would be incredibly stupid, imo.

[The Baconer]

If it wasnt then how Cullen and the rest of Kirkwall didn't know?

 

Did the rest of Kirkwall not know, does it matter? What were they even in a position to do?

 

 

And the culprint was already dead for years. Cullen was the new Commander.

 

The Order in Kirkwall was corrupt from top to bottom. It isn't a situation where you can simply cut off the head of the snake. 

 

 

You really think after "curing the cause" would make the symptons go away? Those mages were cancers, they would continue the same way.

 

That's literally what "curing the cause" means, bud. 

[Vit246]

 

Yeah, he talks about it in the Fade during Here Lies The Abyss. For him it was basically "I met a marvelous Desire Demon. We chatted and drank wine and then he tried to possess me." If Vivienne is in the party he even remarks about how Southern Harrowings are more taxing than in Tevinter. Either way, Tevinter circles send their apprentices to the Fade, same as Southern Circles. Eliminating Harrowings would be incredibly stupid, imo.

 

The point about the Harrowings in the South is that mages don't get to know what the hell exactly it is until its their turn or get to choose when to take it.

Tevinter probably doesn't do something stupid like that.

[Hazegurl]

Funny how nobody has ever done trespasser with a low approval divine cass or Viv. Seems if you did her quest, Leliana does the best as she is seen as an inspiration and her faith wins over many allies while any threats to her reforms are engineered to fail by her.

If you put a Divine you don't get along with on the Sunburst throne then it's your own fault.  I don't care about whether or not you IQ got along with Cass or Viv.  I got along just fine with Leliana and I still think she has a vapid personality. 

 

Teagan sends his complaints to the Inquisition, not the mage rebellion. The mages didn't really get a chance.

 

And I wish there was an option to send those complaints to the mages who caused the damage.  Or at least have more wartable missions of Mages aiding the common folk and other mages.  Allying with the Templars does more good for the most people rather than paying Teagan.   If I could have gotten the same thing out of allying with the Mages I wouldn't feel so iffy about helping them out on my Pro mage run.

[Hazegurl]

Viv has nothing but short-term goals. Short-term not in the sense of years, but in the sense of being centered on her own lifetime.

 

 

And what proof do you have other than how the power the mages have is through her?  This is pretty much how it is with any ruler.  Yet that does not halt progression, but stabilizes it and keeps nobles and mages from going out of control as Mages begin to gain more power.  Which will be a long term endeavor.  It's no wonder the College and Circle seem to coexist a bit better under her than the other Divines.

 

There's no principle to her beyond naked self-advancement, and the only reason she even purports to support a principle - which amounts to supporting the current power structure - is because she's lived her entire life hitching her wagon to that particular horse. The closest she gets to having a coherent principle is her view that that the current power structure is great for the people who know how to navigate it. 

 

 

And yet she was the one who showed more care for the Mages and tranquil than Yolo Fiona and the rebels who only saw them as a consequence of war.  And if Vivienne supported the current power structure then Mages wouldn't have anything under her, but they have far more potential now than they have under Leliana and Cass. And Vivienne is right not to shake the power tree too hard.  Not if she wants Mages to rise up and gain power.  She has nobles and Kings who are watching her every step.  If you think none of them would be ready to put down any Mage who tried to enter the political arena you're mistaken.  But through Vivienne, any Mage who wishes to advance into that vipers nest would have a very powerful ally on their side and may stand a higher chance at success.

 

As to her reign not being a mess, that's outright contradicted. Both by the DA:I epilogue slides - whether the Inquisitor likes her or not - and by the Trespasser slides, which as I've pointed out above has her facing another mage uprising within the first few years of her reign. Every Divine Victoria faces instability.

 

The difference between a low approval Viv and a high approval one is that if anything, the IQ is aiding the high approval one.  But because I consider it dumb to even have a Divine you don't like on the throne, I consider the low approval argument rather pointless.  I totally head canon my IQ aiding Viv in every possible way.

 

 

 

No. This isn't about the war. The templars committed atrocities - actual genocides included - for a few centuries. The scale of horrors - and moral blame - just isn't reducible to the mage-templar war. The only mages that are on the same level of moral culpability as the current living members of the templar order are, basically, Anders and the coo-coo for cocopuffs blood mages in DA2. But if we're talking about organizations, well, the templars don't have a leg to stand on. 

 

 

This isn't about past atrocities.  It's about a war that was fought by two groups who bear the responsibility to make amends.   Mages were out there attacking regular people and Templars, summoning demons, and everything else.  It doesn't matter about who  started what when.  But the current damage that was done as a result of all of their actions. The Templars show true remorse and a desire to change, the Mages complain about whether or not they have fluffy pillows.

[MisterJB]

We still talking about Viv in here or nah? i do enjoy the parry and joust of these debates...i'd nearly forgotten what or who this topic was about originally.

But since we're talking about anullments and such, I have never fully understood what or why that Circle in Rivain was anulled. Wondering if a kind soul exists that wishes to break it down to me so it can forever and consistently be broke. What little I know of it, I side-eyed.

To tie this into Viv, how do we think she would handle the RoA as Divine? Think she'd be quicker to turn a blind eye if there was a need for it constantly or would she shut it all down?

Seekers investigated the Circle in Rivain and found it was not up to regulations. Mages were free, being possessed by spirits and ruling traditional communities.
They demanded this stop and the mages to abide by the Circle's rules. When the mages refused, they tried to enforce it.
The mages fought black and they were winning because the First Enchanter was the daughter of a pirate and experienced with planning a battle and because the Templars were not trying to kill the mages.
Once they realized they might actually lose, they called for the RoA and fought in earnest, killing every mage.

Let us not forget this is told from the perspective of the First Enchanter so it's likely biased.

[Boost32]

Did the rest of Kirkwall not know, does it matter? What were they even in a position to do?
 
 

 
The Order in Kirkwall was corrupt from top to bottom. It isn't a situation where you can simply cut off the head of the snake. 
 
 

 
That's literally what "curing the cause" means, bud.

Yes, because they would be doing the same thing Meredith did before, the Red Templars attacking a head of state is a big deal.

Yeah because good templars doesn't exist, like Sir Agatha.

You cant cure cancer by attacking the cause. They werent good mages, they were criminals who deserved to be put down.

[The Baconer]

Seekers investigated the Circle in Rivain and found it was not up to regulations. 

 

Seeker regulations, anyway... for whatever those are worth. 

 

 

Yes, because they would be doing the same thing Meredith did before, the Red Templars attacking a head of state is a big deal.

 

Kirkwall's last head of state was both attacked and killed by a hostile foreign entity... and nobody cared half as much as they should have. Whatever international importance Kirkwall might have had in the past is pretty much eroded by the end of DA 2. 

 

As long as the chains are up, people couldn't give less of a ****. 

 

 

You cant cure cancer by attacking the cause. 

 

Um, yes, if you are able to prevent a cancer from being able to propagate in the first place, you have effectively cured that instance of cancer. 

[Scuttlebutt101]

 

 

 

The point about the Harrowings in the South is that mages don't get to know what the hell exactly it is until its their turn or get to choose when to take it.

Tevinter probably doesn't do something stupid like that.

 

You want the mages to just tell apprentices "You'll go to the fade and be tempted by demons, don't accept anything they offer"? What good would that be? It would be like teachers handing out the answers to the students before they take an exam. The point of Harrowings is to test the apprentices' willpower, among other things, and to weed out those who are too weak and stupid to resist temptation. It's sad, but necessary. 

[introverted_assassin]

Seekers investigated the Circle in Rivain and found it was not up to regulations. Mages were free, being possessed by spirits and ruling traditional communities.
They demanded this stop and the mages to abide by the Circle's rules. When the mages refused, they tried to enforce it.
The mages fought black and they were winning because the First Enchanter was the daughter of a pirate and experienced with planning a battle and because the Templars were not trying to kill the mages.
Once they realized they might actually lose, they called for the RoA and fought in earnest, killing every mage.

Let us not forget this is told from the perspective of the First Enchanter so it's likely biased.

*EDI voice* I see.

So what of these Seers and their role in this? Doesn't that have something to do with those possessions? Not that it matters...just a point of curiosity on my part.

For the opinions in this thread in general about Viv: I do not believe Vivenne is as focused on herself and creating an atmosphere based solely on propping herself up as some sort of jesus mage Divine....like i see that in this thread and it discredits her intelligence and that is something I'm vehemently against. I base this on the fact that she turned a position that was literally nothing more than a court jester into a position of true power and influence. She knows what's up...she knows what this means. I feel like she is smart enough to effect change, for the here and now as well as long term, but not as brutish as Leli with the murder knife. Don't ignore her mental prowess because you don't like her.

[Boost32]

[

Kirkwall's last head of state was both attacked and killed by a hostile foreign entity... and nobody cared half as much as they should have. Whatever international importance Kirkwall might have had in the past is pretty much eroded by the end of DA 2. 
 
As long as the chains are up, people couldn't give less of a ****. 
 
 

 
Um, yes, if you are able to prevent a cancer from being able to propagate in the first place, you have effectively cured that instance of cancer.

How they did not care about it? Hawke became the Champion because of it.

And the Cancer had already propagated, from top to bottom.

[Lumix19]

You want the mages to just tell apprentices "You'll go to the fade and be tempted by demons, don't accept anything they offer"? What good would that be? It would be like teachers handing out the answers to the students before they take an exam. The point of Harrowings is to test the apprentices' willpower, among other things, and to weed out those who are too weak and stupid to resist temptation. It's sad, but necessary.

There are plenty of people who haven't gone through the Harrowing and are fine. The Tevinter one sounds more like a formality to enter the Circle which would explain why Calpernia didn't go through it.

[The Baconer]

How they did not care about it? Hawke became the Champion because of it.

Woo-hoo.

Nobody open a dialogue about the Qunari committing an act of war or anything, it's just backwater Kirkwall.

And the Cancer had already propagated, from top to bottom.

Right, so you stop the process that leads to the mutation, that it can't propagate further. This is not difficult.

The Circle thing, not the curing cancer thing. That is kind of difficult.

[Vit246]

 

You want the mages to just tell apprentices "You'll go to the fade and be tempted by demons, don't accept anything they offer"? What good would that be? It would be like teachers handing out the answers to the students before they take an exam. The point of Harrowings is to test the apprentices' willpower, among other things, and to weed out those who are too weak and stupid to resist temptation. It's sad, but necessary. 

 

What good would that be? It arms them with the knowledge to prepare and succeed. You can't just throw them into an unknown situation and expect them to succeed. And besides, it fraking creates abominations.

Its a bullshite test that sets them up to fail.

They're barely educated about demons and they have no idea what the Harrowing is and they're not allowed to pick when. Do you have any idea how much un-necessary anxiety and emotional turmoil that creates?

 

[thesuperdarkone2]

*EDI voice* I see.

So what of these Seers and their role in this? Doesn't that have something to do with those possessions? Not that it matters...just a point of curiosity on my part.

For the opinions in this thread in general about Viv: I do not believe Vivenne is as focused on herself and creating an atmosphere based solely on propping herself up as some sort of jesus mage Divine....like i see that in this thread and it discredits her intelligence and that is something I'm vehemently against. I base this on the fact that she turned a position that was literally nothing more than a court jester into a position of true power and influence. She knows what's up...she knows what this means. I feel like she is smart enough to effect change, for the here and now as well as long term, but not as brutish as Leli with the murder knife. Don't ignore her mental prowess because you don't like her.

Wot says that the seekers annulled the rivaini circle because the mages could interact with their families not the possessions.

[Boost32]

Woo-hoo.
Nobody open a dialogue about the Qunari committing an act of war or anything, it's just backwater Kirkwall.

Right, so you stop the process that leads to the mutation, that it can't propagate further. This is not difficult.
The Circle thing, not the curing cancer thing. That is kind of difficult.

Because the Qunari told them it was a rogue agent to prevent a Exalted March.

I stopped the Câncer from spreading even more by destroying the tumor.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Because the Qunari told them it was a rogue agent to prevent a Exalted March.

I stopped the Câncer from spreading even more by destroying the tumor.

Considering that mages want freedom regardless of what you do in trespasser, I'd say you failed. Guess when you imprison people for existing, there will always be those who actually want to be treated like people.

Also, wanting freedom is a cancer? Lol you Templar supporters are so deluded.

[Bleachrude]

 

The Order in Kirkwall was corrupt from top to bottom. It isn't a situation where you can simply cut off the head of the snake. 

 

 

 

I'm not sure that's true given that up till Act 3, Meredith would be considered HARSH but not corrupt.Remember, her reaction to finding out a mage was actually trying to score with women by pretending to be a blood mage? The Act 3 Meredith would certainly not have been as harsh.

 

 

Yeah, he talks about it in the Fade during Here Lies The Abyss. For him it was basically "I met a marvelous Desire Demon. We chatted and drank wine and then he tried to possess me." If Vivienne is in the party he even remarks about how Southern Harrowings are more taxing than in Tevinter. Either way, Tevinter circles send their apprentices to the Fade, same as Southern Circles. Eliminating Harrowings would be incredibly stupid, imo.

 

Thank you....the reason why I asked this was because I thought I remember reading that the Harrowing was a _TEVINTER_ creation that the Southern Chantry kept otherwise how would they even have come up with the harrowing? Although I wonder what he meant by "more taxing".

[Bleachrude]

There are plenty of people who haven't gone through the Harrowing and are fine. The Tevinter one sounds more like a formality to enter the Circle which would explain why Calpernia didn't go through it.

 

You know...I'm not sure we should base ANYTHING on Calpernia's experience. According to her backstory via the wiki, she was a slave to another magister and when Cory approached her master, she was then taken on as an apprentice by Cory. Of course she never had a harrowing because she never HAD an opportunity to take one.