1041 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

Considering that mages want freedom regardless of what you do in trespasser, I'd say you failed. Guess when you imprison people for existing, there will always be those who actually want to be treated like people.
Also, wanting freedom is a cancer? Lol you Templar supporters are so deluded.

Do you know how to read? We werent talking about what you are talking.

[TommyBoyJoy]

Viv is actually one of the best written characters in my opinion while i don't agree with her stance on magic i respect her for sticking to her point of view.

[Lumix19]

You know...I'm not sure we should base ANYTHING on Calpernia's experience. According to her backstory via the wiki, she was a slave to another magister and when Cory approached her master, she was then taken on as an apprentice by Cory. Of course she never had a harrowing because she never HAD an opportunity to take one.

Her master knew she was a mage though. Erasthenes was the one who taught her how to control her magic. Yet he didn't put her through the Harrowing.
But the point is is that if mages can be competent and in control without the Harrowing then what's the point in having it in the first place?

[Boost32]

Her master knew she was a mage though. Erasthenes was the one who taught her how to control her magic. Yet he didn't put her through the Harrowing.
But the point is is that if mages can be competent and in control without the Harrowing then what's the point in having it in the first place?

Because not all mages are competent and in control.

[Bleachrude]

Her master knew she was a mage though. Erasthenes was the one who taught her how to control her magic. Yet he didn't put her through the Harrowing.
But the point is is that if mages can be competent and in control without the Harrowing then what's the point in having it in the first place?

 

That's a horrendous argument....you're basically saying "my mom/dad/authority figure who never had an accident in their life taught me how to drive, thus there's no need to have a formal driving test".

 

Furthermore, how do we know that she didn't actually undergo a harrowing? Does Calpernia ever say that Cory or her former master never subjected her to what a mage undergoes for a harrowing? The only thing we know about her is that she never was part of a circle....

[lil yonce]

This is a response to Dean's post here. And, yeah, I still have one more to go. 

 

The Circle decides who produces what on the basis of what wants to produce for what profit and returns. Mages aren't forced to work on specific outputs- nor do they have quotas- but if they want to buy the nice things they enjoy, they will.Your College doesn't have the Tranquil excuse, remember? Nor is it a centrally planned commune: not only is the College composed of the people who wanted away from the Chantry's oversight, but centralized planning is incompatible with independence from the central planner. The entire point of central planning is that it comes from a central authority who allocates resources- which means the person who controls the money, which is the Chantry.Let's not mince words on what you're describing: the mages who wish freedom from the Chantry and its dogma that so bind the Circle are being expected to go to an institution dependent on Chantry money, to work jobs according to the Chantry's direction, being paid less than the value of their work, to fulfill the Chantry's ideological dogma and conducting charity.

1) Everyone everywhere is paid less than the value of their work; that's how any surplus is created. 2) What matters is who produces the surplus and who decides the surplus distribution. Here the surplus creation and distribution is decided by the mages/community- and to some degree the Chantry is part of the community. That's inescapable politics, yes. To protect itself from hostile principles- Chantry or otherwise- it will limit as much as it can any intrusive influence. I pitched a model of the College ceteris paribus, a naive model, for simplicity's sake- but I know the Chantry will have some influence. What's important is how it is managed by the College. 3) Circle mages don't have to work because mass tranquil exploitation-- that's very likely to change in the new College because the mages are more hostile to tranquility than they've been in the past- so expectations about work are likely to be very different. What work will be done and who's doing it just has to be resolved internal to any particular college. 4) The public enterprise model is one to be adopted freely by the mages in my view, not somehow imposed on them. 5) There is planning in every enterprise- a local college would be no different from a business in this regard and I don't want "central planning". I want local level decentralized planning. 6) The chantry isn't doing planning here- as in earmarking or categorizing funds, unless for a specific project and everyone agrees to the terms. If they insist on that w/ general funds then no dice, deal off. But if the Chantry can get over that (which it has interest in doing for reasons I've said) this can work. The Chantry isn't without any lobby power- it never will be anyway- but its influence is manageable IMO. 7) I've gone through this: If Chantry influence becomes an outstanding worry, the College can drop/limit its funding and purse public funding in other ways or purse other avenues of funding. It can plan for this before it takes anything from the Chantry. And we know it never has to take money from the Chantry at all to establish itself. The community/mage model can work with or w/out Chantry support.
 

The argument of a 'social pact' is antithetical to your argument that the College should be free of ideology- as well as free from Chantry direction in what it can and can not do and research. If the mages are obligated- by this ideology- to conduct their research towards public good, they are having their directions tampered with by the Chantry.And, yes, mages in the Circle could earn and keep property- there's an entire fraternity based around gaining wealth.

I didn't say the College should be free of ideology- just not boxed in by the historical Chantry's anti-mage bs. I would like it to adopt on its own the belief it should be more a public enterprise/less a private magi institution and then work from there on how to go about it. And I've gone over how it can limit hostile outside influences to the best of its ability. And the only businesses the Circle owned that I know of were Formari tranquil shops-- not say a private farm, or mine, or transport service, etc., whatever. Lucrosians wanted to build the Circle's wealth but they only did it one way far as I can tell when they've had centuries to diversify.
 

In a free society- which the mages aligned with the College have just  fought a rebellion for- that is exactly what you can do. You can choose what you do, and how, or not too at all.And I haven't been arguing that the College would be free of outside influence. In fact, I have been arguing that it won't- and that your proposals are not only contradictory, but enhance it's vulnerability to influence. When raised with the prospect of local nobles (the 'society' or 'community' in which they exist), you raised the prospect of Chantry funding freeing them from Noble reliance. In the face of Chantry monetary influence, you raised relying on the locals (again- the nobility). This is robbing Peter to pay Paul- and coming into debt with them both..This is not a path to enhancing mage neutrality and independence. It's the opposite.Nor do the mages need, or can rely, on community goodwill to protect their place- fickle public favor aside, mages have means both mundane (political/economic leverage) and magical (fireballs and, of course, blood magic) to ensure their power. And with blood magic, even be popular while they do it.

It sounds like we're getting into a debate now about what sort of society the mages were angling for after the rebellion. Frankly, I think you're making "free society" mean what you want it to mean here. We don't know that they wanted some sort of mage-only libertarian small government College and not, say, freedom of association (as much as is possible from the Chantry and templars) collectivist style College government. All we know definitively is that they wanted a magi society free from templar and Chantry oversight.

 

And the local community is never just nobles. Its merchants, guilds, and local special interests like Freeholders in Ferelden, Seers in Rivain, Grey Wardens in the Anderfels. So I think your analysis is too narrow- and you're coming at it from an angle I'm not. Its not so much in debt to these interests as, to a significant degree, this is just how its supposed to function; with their involvement.

 

And mages are part of the community too- at least I hope for them to be as well integrated as possible into the local communities-- where they have families, friends, and do work. The less people see them as only mages and more like community members the less likely college politics at any particular moment will leave them vulnerable and open to the sort of marginalization that victimized Circle mages.
 

So you think that Leliana would hire teachers who tell the students that everything she does is wrong, that magic is highly dangerous and should not be relied upon, and that the Colleges are wasteful?Leliana would murder political rivals in a church, and runs an otherwise unaccountable private spy service to spy on and destroy her rivals.

You're saying Leliana might for the most part agree w/ a college friendly education plan then? I thought you were arguing she wouldn't allow anything that might contradict the Chantry or the chant on any subject.

[Lumix19]

That's a horrendous argument....you're basically saying "my mom/dad/authority figure who never had an accident in their life taught me how to drive, thus there's no need to have a formal driving test".

Furthermore, how do we know that she didn't actually undergo a harrowing? Does Calpernia ever say that Cory or her former master never subjected her to what a mage undergoes for a harrowing? The only thing we know about her is that she never was part of a circle....

I'm literally not saying that. I'm saying that if you can be safe as a mage without the Harrowing, it reduces the legitimacy of the test.
The Harrowing is based on the assumption that mages are dangerous and prone to demonic possession. Thus it was set up that only those who pass the test can function as mages, others must die or be made Tranquil. Yet there exists those who have not undergone the Harrowing and yet are competent and safe mages. What does that tell you about 1) the assumption upon which the Harrowing is based and 2) the Harrowing itself?

So if more than a few people out there know how to drive, and they drive well without licenses, then you have to think about whether the test should be easier or whether licenses are actually necessary in the first place. Because having a license isn't a guarantee that you won't crash and die, but clearly not having a license doesn't mean you'll crash and die the minute you hit the road either.
Tests are not infallible.

Calpernia's story doesn't mention the Harrowing at all. She just mentions that her magic showed itself and Erasthenes taught her the basics to make sure she didn't hurt herself (or others) and then left her alone. He wasn't interested in her magic at all really, he just wanted to make sure she knew enough to not turn into an abomination.
It's possible Corypheus made her go through it though I sincerely doubt that.

[The Baconer]

Because the Qunari told them it was a rogue agent to prevent a Exalted March.

 

Yeah, I don't think it would have gone over quite as smoothly if it happened somewhere moderately important. 

 

 

I stopped the Câncer from spreading even more by destroying the tumor.

 

But... you didn't. Were it not for the larger rebellion happening either way, you would have accomplished nothing in the long-term except a lull before the regular blood mage & abomination stats return to being the highest out of all the Circles. 

 

I'm not sure that's true given that up till Act 3, Meredith would be considered HARSH but not corrupt.

 

Meredith was corrupt. Cullen and Samson's backstory confirm as much by the time of DA:I. 

 

In addition, many of those working under her command were corrupt, and this corruption was allowed to flourish under her policies at the Gallows and her general ineptitude at enforcing any rule of conduct. 

[Cobra's_back]

I like Viv. She knows that things can really sour with out of control mages. Mages out of control equal villagers hunting them down. She plays the Loyalist  nicely. Having said that I usually pick Cass as Divine and side with the Templars. 

[Boost32]

Yeah, I don't think it would have gone over quite as smoothly if it happened somewhere moderately important. 
 
But... you didn't. Were it not for the larger rebellion happening either way, you would have accomplished nothing in the long-term except a lull before the regular blood mage & abomination stats return to being the highest out of all the Circles. 

Maybe, we will never know.

Yes I did, I cleansed Kirkwall from those Blood Mages and Abominations. Tell me, what good you siding with the mages and backing that madman did?

[Bleachrude]

Yeah, I don't think it would have gone over quite as smoothly if it happened somewhere moderately important. 

 

 

 

But... you didn't. Were it not for the larger rebellion happening either way, you would have accomplished nothing in the long-term except a lull before the regular blood mage & abomination stats return to being the highest out of all the Circles. 

 

 

Meredith was corrupt. Cullen and Samson's backstory confirm as much by the time of DA:I. 

 

In addition, many of those working under her command were corrupt, and this corruption was allowed to flourish under her policies at the Gallows and her general ineptitude at enforcing any rule of conduct. 

 

You're using that word ("corruption") not how it is defined. For example, a city guard that doesn't investigate the fact that merchants are being shaken down by the carta is NOT necessarily corrupt UNLESS said guard is getting a kickback from the carta. If said guard isn't, said guard is just incompetent/lazy. 

 

That's an entirely different thing than what people understand to be corruption. 

 

Furthermore, neither Samson or Cullen talk about Meredith pre gaining the red lyrium sword. Cullen, in DA2 mentions that she was HARSH but never corrupt. Using insane Meredith given waht we know about red lyrium pretty much invalidates arguments against her since quite frankly, she was insane through no fault of her own (at the time, nobody knew how dangerous red lyrum was other than Varric and Hawke).

[The Baconer]

Yes I did, I cleansed Kirkwall from those Blood Mages and Abominations. Tell me, what good you siding with the mages and backing that madman did?

 

Ensure it doesn't happen again. 

 

You're using that word ("corruption") not how it is defined. For example, a city guard that doesn't investigate the fact that merchants are being shaken down by the carta is NOT necessarily corrupt UNLESS said guard is getting a kickback from the carta. If said guard isn't, said guard is just incompetent/lazy. 

 

That's an entirely different thing than what people understand to be corruption. 

 

I used the world with full knowledge of its meaning, thanks. 

 

 

Furthermore, neither Samson or Cullen talk about Meredith pre gaining the red lyrium sword. 

 

Yes, Cullen states she "wielded the brand" (Tranquility) for sentences "lesser" than writing love notes. 

 

Then there's this from World of Thedas 2:

 

The new knight commander, Meredith, appointed Marlowe to the seat, much to his surprise. Just before he was crowned, he met in private with the knight-commander at the Gallows. Marlowe was escorted, surrounded by grim templars, to Meredith's well appointed office, and there, she explained her reasons for the choice. Kirkwall was filled with entitled degenerates. Marlowe was different. His family had always been humble. They never grasped for power or gold, never felt that it was owed them. “With my help, you will turn this city around," she said. “We will be allies.”

 

Meredith's message was clear: Remember who holds power in Kirkwall. Remember what happened to Threnhold when he overreached. To drive home her point, she presented Marlowe with a small carven ivory box at his coronation. The box con tained the Threnhold signet ring, misshapen, and crusted with blood. On the inside of the lid were written the words “His fate need not be yours.”

[Hazegurl]

Wot says that the seekers annulled the rivaini circle because the mages could interact with their families not the possessions.

If it does say that then it is a misprint.  Considering the fact that mages can interact with their families in all other Circles and even go home to visit family.  Especially if they have the money and means to do it.

 

So I highly doubt the Seekers called an RoA over that and not the fact that the Seekers were allowing spirits to possess them.

 

@Vit246, it makes perfect sense to not tell them about the Harrowing.  They don't just toss Mages into the fray and expect them to succeed.  Mages go through years of training before  a Harrowing take place.  And the First Enchanter judges whether or not they are even capable of success before placing them through it.  A lot goes into it before it's actually done. 

 

A Harrowing is a test that places a Mage in a typical situation they would face while practicing Magic.  It's really not that big of a deal.

[Boost32]

Ensure it doesn't happen again.

And in the end, you accomplished nothing.

[thesuperdarkone2]

And in the end, it did happened.

And you know that how?

[Boost32]

And you know that how?

I read his post wrong, already edited.

[The Baconer]

And in the end, you accomplished nothing.

 

No, it definitely accomplished something. More than using blood to pay for a seat on Kirkwall's good ol' boys club, and then getting dumped. 

[Boost32]

No, it definitely accomplished something. More than using blood to pay for a seat on Kirkwall's good ol' boys club, and then getting dumped.

Not what the codex about Hawke being the Viscount says.
Blood of a cancer is all good.
And congratulations to support blood mages and abominations.

[The Baconer]

Not what the codex about Hawke being the Viscount says.

 

What about it? The codex says they left, Hawke him/herself says they were forced out of office by the Reds. Even when the crisis blows over, Hawke is dropped like a sack of bricks. 

 

 

And congratulations to support blood mages and abominations.

 

That's what Viscount Hawke does, yes, in supporting the system that created them. 

[Boost32]

What about it? The codex says they left, Hawke him/herself says they were forced out of office by the Reds. Even when the crisis blows over, Hawke is dropped like a sack of bricks. 
 
 

 
That's what Viscount Hawke does, yes, in supporting the system that created them.

"While our legitimate viscount has indeed vacated his/her office (temporarily, I am promised), much of his/her short reign was spent girding our wounded home."
http://dragonage.wik...ate_of_Kirkwall
Its clear who did more to Kirkwall.


How many abominations and blood mages Viscount Hawke helped? None.
How many a Hawke who sided with the mages unleashed upon the world?

[Xilizhra]

How many a Hawke who sided with the mages unleashed upon the world?

Also none. If you believe otherwise, please cite the DAI source that tells us this.

[The Baconer]

"While our legitimate viscount has indeed vacated his/her office (temporarily, I am promised), much of his/her short reign was spent girding our wounded home."
http://dragonage.wik...ate_of_Kirkwall
Its clear who did more to Kirkwall.

 

Varric? 

 

 

How many abominations and blood mages Viscount Hawke helped? None.

 

Define "help". You are nurturing the womb they spawned from. 

[Boost32]

Varric? 
 
 

 
Define "help". You are nurturing the womb they spawned from.

No, its Hawke.

Not putting them down and helping them to get loose. I didnt side with Orsino.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Varric?



Define "help". You are nurturing the womb they spawned from.

He clearly forgot about Evelina. Funny how he neglected to mention a Hawke who sided with the mages did just as much as viscount Hawke .

[Boost32]

Also none. If you believe otherwise, please cite the DAI source that tells us this.

There are plenty of abominations in Kirkwall after you choose your side.