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[Korva]

She's intelligent and insightful and with a biting wit, but I don't find that I can trust even her more seemingly empathetic moments not to be stage managed.

 

That is my problem, yes. Vivienne never stops "playing the Game", which makes it impossible for me to trust that anything she says and does is genuine instead of designed to make her come out on top. Plus, her frequently expressed contempt for those around her doesn't exactly speak of a secret soft spot either. Maybe using her as a primary companion makes her look slightly better, but I can see no reason to do that because the way she acts flies in the face of what I want from a companion. I really do think she's a huge wasted opportunity.

 

(It's rather funny how similar she and Solas are in some ways. Maybe that's why she's able to make some of her rather pointed observations. Though, of course, she doesn't want to destroy the world.)

[Fredward]

I really do think she's a huge wasted opportunity.

 

Why?

[YourFunnyUncle]

That is my problem, yes. Vivienne never stops "playing the Game", which makes it impossible for me to trust that anything she says and does is genuine instead of designed to make her come out on top. Plus, her frequently expressed contempt for those around her doesn't exactly speak of a secret soft spot either. Maybe using her as a primary companion makes her look slightly better, but I can see no reason to do that because the way she acts flies in the face of what I want from a companion. I really do think she's a huge wasted opportunity.

 

(It's rather funny how similar she and Solas are in some ways. Maybe that's why she's able to make some of her rather pointed observations. Though, of course, she doesn't want to destroy the world.)

I don't need to like all my companions to enjoy having them in the game. I just need to find them interesting, and Vivienne certainly ticks that box for me. The one thing I would say is a wasted opportunity is her lack of involvement at Halamshiral. I took her there expecting to hear some really insightful comments about the political situation, and... basically nothing. That was a shame.

[sniper_arrow]

Oh, right. I think it was more you would prefer Bethany dead than in the Circle, or something like that. Still you didnt like Bethany because she wasnt opposed to the Circle.

EDIT - Found it! To me its seem you want her to die because she is not a "MaH FrEEDuM!!1!" mage.

 

 

Wow, I know some people hate some fictional characters, but this is taking it to the extreme.

[Katebe94]

I'm currently doing a second playthrough and something that stuck me on getting to know Vivienne the second time round is that there are aspects to her character that are really quite sad (I mean they made me feel sad, I'm not insulting her!). 

 

Take her insistence when you tell her that people should judge you by your deeds that people are brutish and stupid - you have to cow/impress them. I think she's the opposite of an idealist - she's ruthless and callous because she's learnt that everyone is a potential threat and ultimately selfish. You can see this in her dialogue with Solas, where she basically says, every ruler is corrupt - why shouldn't I have a turn? Despite this she's not quite as heartless as she would like everyone to believe (eg. she tells you to ignore the villagers at haven, but approves if you save them regardless). 

 

Her relationship with Bastien is interesting, too - I think her dialogue with the inquisitor and Cole strongly suggests that she was using him and maybe disliked him when they first started the affair. But she clearly grows fond of - even to love? him, but can't save him. So yeah, I agree OP - a really compelling character. 

[Akkos]

I'm greatly obssessed with every single thing I hear about her. Love her to bits.

 

Though I do agree that there were some potencial points in the story plot where she'd shine but was not implemented at all.

[nightscrawl]

"Daaarling, it's spa day!"

While this whole thing was amusing I didn't really understand why that scene played out as it did with my Inquisitor. He was never antagonistic toward her, but only disagreed with some of her views and was never friendly, disliking the Game. So, Vivienne's reaction during that scene seemed out of place for the relationship they had.

[Dean_the_Young]

Oh, right. I think it was more you would prefer Bethany dead than in the Circle, or something like that. Still you didnt like Bethany because she wasnt opposed to the Circle.

EDIT - Found it! To me its seem you want her to die because she is not a "MaH FrEEDuM!!1!" mage.
 

 

Huh. And here I thought Xil advocating a lesbian incestuous relationship with Bethany was her weirdest thing about the character.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why?

 

If I remember right- and I believe I do- it's because Vivienne's nominal relevance, a skilled politician with leadership over a bunch of mages, is never demonstrated. It's a tell, not show, situation.

 

Part of this is unquestionably deliberate on the dev's part- Vivienne's greatest fear being irrelevance, her effective ousting from the imperial court by Morrigan becoming Court Enchanter- but it's still rather remarkable how little her influence contributes to the Inquisition when it really should. When practical nobodies like Sera and Black Wall get mission chains which give beneficial influence to the Inquisition and tie to their quests- the Red Jenny quest chain, using the Warden name through Blackwall- it's bizar that Vivienne, leader of the Loyalist Mages and master of the game, doesn't get something similar.

 

It's not that she doesn't do politics on behalf of the Inquisition- we know the Loyalist Mages exist as a faction, we know she maintains correspondances with influential people, we know she does politics and that no one in the group ever claims she doesn't support the Inquisition or say that what she does harms it.

 

It's just that we're only told she does these things- when her character would really benefit from showing us these processes and results. Say, Loyalist Mage representative character/cameo content that's only visible when you recruit her, to give a sense of the feelings of those under her, good and ill. Maybe meeting a brief ally of hers at the Ball, who helps you if you've recruited with her, but doesn't if you didn't. And, of course, the question of why loyalist mages can't/don't help with the Breach- though obviously that might undermine the relevance of the Rebel Mages in Redcliffe.

 

Vivienne is a character who is supposed to be involved in an extensive web of contacts and political relations.... but overwhelmingly she's an isolated character in presentation.

[SgtSteel91]

Oh, right. I think it was more you would prefer Bethany dead than in the Circle, or something like that. Still you didnt like Bethany because she wasnt opposed to the Circle.
 

 

IIRC at the end of DA2 when you side with the Mages Bethany comes to oppose the Circles and a wants to see Mages free.

[d1ta]

I may be terribly wrong in this, but in truth, what really bothers most people about Vivienne is that it's inevitable that she sounds like she's one of our parents.
...snip

Hahahahaaaa omg you have no idea how terribly right you are on this one for me.

She really has that 'controlling mom' kinda vibe, but it's fun for me to have her paired with IB (hey, at least those 'suggestions' are being pointed at some one else and not me )

Besides, I love her hat. It's very similiar to the traditional headdress that women wear in some parts of my country and they're worn by strong women too, where the matriarch is very much in control of the family's wealth matters

[thetinyevil]

No. She isn't awesome in for or hindsight. She is well written but she is a horrible person who I wish I could have fed to a dragon. 

[Xilizhra]

Oh, right. I think it was more you would prefer Bethany dead than in the Circle, or something like that. Still you didnt like Bethany because she wasnt opposed to the Circle.

EDIT - Found it! To me its seem you want her to die because she is not a "MaH FrEEDuM!!1!" mage.

Ah, yes, having an opinion on which Hawke should die in the inevitable death of one of them is totally the same as thinking they deserve to die. It cannot, surely, be just because I prefer the Carver-as-Grey-Warden plot.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Ah, yes, having an opinion on which Hawke should die in the inevitable death of one of them is totally the same as thinking they deserve to die. It cannot, surely, be just because I prefer the Carver-as-Grey-Warden plot.

Pro Templars prefer nitpicking anything you say rather than suggest anything legitimate. The fact the they keep referring to that just proves my point.

[phishface]

I may be terribly wrong in this, but in truth, what really bothers most people about Vivienne is that it's inevitable that she sounds like she's one of our parents.

 

A woman confined to rules and obligations, too worried with proceedings and keeping up appearances, condescending and prejudiced toward social misfits, unwilling to trust people with their freedom, someone who never tried breaking the rules for fun, inflexible and paranoid about control, always telling people what is better for them (according to her own strict philosophy).

 

Considering games are for fun and exploration of endless possibilities, Vivienne does seem out of place. Despite all this, she's a special character, full of merit.

 

I think you're both right and wrong. Your observation that she comes across as parental is very astute. But your 2nd paragraph sees the parent from the perspective of the child (or teenager).

 

Change the perspective to that of the weary but caring parent, and I think there's a real insight into Vivienne's character. She's heard all these arguments before. She's seen the consequences of ideology over pragmatism. She understands the value of self-discipline. She's frustrated that members of her 'family' are making what are obviously idiotic decisions but can't see it. She's resigned to letting them make their own mistakes, while trying to guide them towards something a bit more practical and a bit less disastrous.

 

If you browse through her dialogue with the Inquisitor you'll see time and again she approves of practical and (for want of a better phrase) 'grown-up' choices. She most strongly disapproves of wild ideology. And look closely at what she slightly approves - it might surprise you. The writers clearly allocated her approval very carefully and subtly.

 

I think it indicates an attempt at gentle guidance toward the solutions that are most likely to bring stability, peace and the greatest good for the many. I guess another way to put it is that Vivienne is a classic utilitarian, like many good parents.

[Arlee]

For a long time, I shared the common view that Vivienne was poisonous character with no depth. Everything's just the Game with her, and she only cares about herself. But having done a playthrough with her constantly in the party, I've realised she's complex, very useful, and usually right. Here's a few reasons why:

 

1. This bit of dialogue between her and Cole gives a poignant insight into how she became what she is::

• Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
• Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
• Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
• Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."

Then we learn how she got back at him:

• Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
• Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
• Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.

So Vivienne set up the offensive noble who appears during her recruitment. Good.

 

2. She is awesome in battle. In my experience, Vivienne is the strongest follower you can have.

 

3. She gets abuse all the time, and deals with it in good humour. You get the impression her whole life has been like this. And her dialogue with Sera is some of the funniest in the game.

 

4. She totally has the measure of Fen'harel:

• Solas: Tell me, Enchanter. Do you even bother to explore the Fade in your dreams?
• Vivienne: I prefer to explore the world I actually live in.
• Solas: Pity. You could be much more powerful if you ventured outside your narrow preconceptions.
• Vivienne: Ah, the temptation to leave the path. You sound like a pride demon.
• Solas: Enchanter, any pride demon you met would just walk away, shaking its head and laughing uncontrollably.
• Vivienne: Oh darling, more than one already has.

Also:

• Vivienne: I don't know what to make of Solas. So much knowledge and so little personal history... I find that... peculiar, don't you?

Also:

• Vivienne: So, apostate. If the Circle is such a failure, what would be your solution? Would you have your fellow mages live among the people, unguarded, unwatched?
• Solas: Yes.
• Vivienne: And when they became possessed, or use their power to harm?
• Solas: I would kill them. Magic is more elegant than a blade or a bow, but a murderer remains a murderer.
• Vivienne: So you alone would pass judgment, repay murder with murder, or do we open this up to mobs and vigilantes? If you're going to dispense judgment upon violent mages yourself, you'll need eternal life and omniscience. If only there were individuals dedicated to finding and eliminating such criminals. Perhaps they might help?
• Solas: I am certain they would. Until black and white distinctions perverted their simple minds.

5. She's a tough old bird. The thing about Vivienne is that she's always self-sufficient, and seems always to have needed to be. Witness her reaction to Bastien's death.

 

6. She's all about the reality of things. She's pragmatic, and she's usually right. What works is good. Ideology is dangerous. She trusts no-one, and if there's one thing we learn in DAI, it's that no-one can be trusted.

 

Anyway, I think it's often overlooked that she's a complex, very well-written, and quite symapthetic character. Her vanity is explained and understandable, but beneath it is wisdom.

 

Here interactions with Dorian, especially when the IQ is romancing Dorian, give a lot of insight into her character and the type of person she is. There's one in particular about her getting a letter from a friend in Tevinter and it goes a long way to showing who she is.

[Korva]

If I remember right- and I believe I do- it's because Vivienne's nominal relevance, a skilled politician with leadership over a bunch of mages, is never demonstrated. It's a tell, not show, situation.

 

Exactly. And there is hardly any "telling" whatsoever, either.

 

Vivienne had the potential to be a huge character, on a "most important NPC in the Inquisition, no contest" level of huge, yet nothing ever comes of it -- unless she manages to hijack the Divine election, which is hardly something that the players automatically consider desirable. Apart from that, neither her leadership of the loyalist mages nor her political connections exist in the game at all. (Granted, this may be partly because Bioware has generally not exactly handled political and subterfuge-related characters and stories remotely well.)

 

Plus, her dismissive and arrogant personality means that she better be doubly useful if I'm supposed to put up with her. She isn't. While I don't dislike her as much as I do some other characters, there just isn't anything about her that is appealing enough to warrant using her. Not her personality, not her (nonexistent) impact on the story, not her advice which while sensible basically amounts to no more than anyone with two working brain cells and/or a few moments in the presence of any noble or other power-grabbing politician can't figure out by themselves. (Same with Iron Bull's advice on leadership and troop morale, though that was presented in a more gratingly patronizing manner.)
 

I was also hoping for a character who would present a relatable and preferably "fair and balanced" pro-Circle view -- acknowledging the abuses and the need for change while also acknowledging the dangers of uncontrolled magic. As far as I remember, Vivienne doesn't do that, and in combination with her highly privileged position (hard-won and not merely inherited though it is) this makes her and thus a pro-Circle POV far too easy to dismiss. Especially for the parts of the playerbase that are already myopically and aggressively yelling "The Chantry and the templars and anything but absolute freedom and preferably dominance for mages is EVIL AND NEEDS TO DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

(Yet somehow Dorian's -- admittedly much less severe IMO -- flaws or Solas' desire to destroy the world don't seem to merit dismissing any pro-mage POVs. I guess it helps that players can use them for sex, which Vivienne has the sheer gall to refuse. Yes, sarcasm alert on the "sheer gall" bit there.)

 

Cassandra is the one who kind of provides a progressive pro-Circle stance, but she is not a mage so her words have less weight than the words of someone who'd actually live in that system.

 

Edit: Maybe I'm missing something by not using her more, going by what others here have said. It's just that there's no incentive for me to use her, and while I tend to be a hopeless completionist in some ways, I've learned not to force myself to accomodate characters I don't actually like while hoping it'll maybe, possible, somehow, pay off at some point. So while I don't hate Vivienne and neither did she hate my Inquisitor (I actually finished the game with her approval pretty close to maximum), I do find her annoying and disappointing, and she really hasn't given me reason to change that impression.

[Tielis]

I may be terribly wrong in this, but in truth, what really bothers most people about Vivienne is that it's inevitable that she sounds like she's one of our parents.

 

Honestly, I would be quite happy if my parents even remotely sounded as caring as Vivienne.

[Colonelkillabee]

In hindsight?

 

She's awesome at first glance.

 

FABULOUS too.

Yep. Been sayin it since release.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Just watch divine Vivienne ally with the Qunari and turn southern thedas into Tevinter 2.0. I guarantee it.

[sandalisthemaker]

Just watch divine Vivienne ally with the Qunari and turn southern thedas into Tevinter 2.0. I guarantee it.

 

1.  Vivienne would never

 

2. Allying with the Qunari would turn Southern Thedas into the opposite of Tevinter

 

3. An eventual Tevinter 2.0 would be more likely under Leliana.

[Boost32]

Part of this is unquestionably deliberate on the dev's part- Vivienne's greatest fear being irrelevance, her effective ousting from the imperial court by Morrigan becoming Court Enchanter- but it's still rather remarkable how little her influence contributes to the Inquisition when it really should.

Morrigan was never the Imperial Enchanter and didnt oust Vivienne.
Morrigan was an Arcane Advisor (as per codex in Inquisition says) and Vivienne left on her own, Celene didnt force or wanted her to leave (there is a banter between Cole and Vivienne about it).

[SgtSteel91]

Just watch divine Vivienne ally with the Qunari and turn southern thedas into Tevinter 2.0. I guarantee it.

 

Didn't someone in the forum posted that Divine Vivienne says her first order of business after dealing with the Qunari in Trespasser was calling an Exalted March on them?

[Boost32]

Didn't someone in the forum posted that Divine Vivienne says her first order of business after dealing with the Qunari in Trespasser was calling an Exalted March on them?

Look how she is willingly to side with the Qunari! She will destroy everyone with her Qunari buddies!
http://youtu.be/8oOOlotsXvI

[sandalisthemaker]

Look how she is willingly to side with the Qunari! She will destroy everyone with her Qunari buddies!

 

Oh my god she sounds amazing!