I see I'm fashionably late to this conversation. <Vivienne greatly approves>
Vivienne remains one of the most fascinating and, in my opinion, enjoyable characters in the entire series. She's definitely one of my top three of all time. Possibly even the top of the top. She's fabulous.
Oh, please. She's blatantly fishing for an endorsement for her as Divine at one point. I have done all of Vivienne's high-approval things.
And this is bad because?
Vivienne is a realistic and pragmatic character
Bioware made a troll character that neither fits their leftist narrative or paints a strawman caricature of the conservative right.
She is surprisingly adult and mature for such a setting.
PC libs don't like her, and Bioware made her black on purpose just to fish a reaction from the "non-progressives"
She brings a perspective to Dragon Age that was sorely lacking. Oh, we'd heard from the moderates (Wynne) and the radicals (Anders), but we'd never heard from the mages who recognized there were problems with the Circle system but were largely OK with its existence. I got along with her famously, as we rarely disagreed on anything.
Also, she had magnificent breasts. So there's that. 
Vivienne is a realistic and pragmatic character
Bioware made a troll character that neither fits their leftist narrative or paints a strawman caricature of the conservative right.
She is surprisingly adult and mature for such a setting.
PC libs don't like her, and Bioware made her black on purpose just to fish a reaction from the "non-progressives"
That's my biggest problem with Vivenne, like I played a little too liberal (allying with Mages, getting Briala and Celene to cooperate, allying with Wardens) that I chafed with Vivienne's disparaging attitude.
Vivienne is a realistic and pragmatic character
Bioware made a troll character that neither fits their leftist narrative or paints a strawman caricature of the conservative right.
She is surprisingly adult and mature for such a setting.
PC libs don't like her, and Bioware made her black on purpose just to fish a reaction from the "non-progressives"
I'm a "PC lib" and I think she's amazing. Why? Because I don't have to personally agree with a character to appreciate them.
Viv is awesome, simple as that. She's the only mage that makes any sense, she proves that mages can carve their own place in the world without trying to kill everyone for it, and if you get on her good side she'll treat you to a spa day.
She brings a perspective to Dragon Age that was sorely lacking. Oh, we'd heard from the moderates (Wynne) and the radicals (Anders), but we'd never heard from the mages who recognized there were problems with the Circle system but were largely OK with its existence. I got along with her famously, as we rarely disagreed on anything.
Also, she had magnificent breasts. So there's that.
Er, that literally was Wynne's position, so I don't really know what you mean.
As a character in a story, she's really great. She has both, virtues and flaws and that makes her real, believable.
I like her being pragmatic and approaching problems with reason - it's nice contrast to quite a lot of characters who prefer ideals or emotions. Although, she's too pragmatic for my taste - when you get to Skyhold, she just has to remind you, that every single mistake of yours will end in tragedy. Like I already didn't know that, my dear!
Yes, yes, she's selfish and ambitious. So what? I already deal with selfish and ambitious people daily. She at least has some charm. 
I certainly don't see her as that demonic figure she appeared in my first playthrough, when I recruited her late, so I missed quite a lot of her dialogue. She's not someone I would hang out regularly with for spa days, but as a story character I really like her. She's definitely interesting.
I think the banter with Dorian about Tevinter is more akin to what you find between say a Frenchman and an Englishman. They'll mock the other country endlessly but both ALSO think that the only nation close to their "level" is the other.
She is a character who favors her mind over her heart and logic over emotion which, naturally, leads to her being right most of the time.
Evidently, this makes her worse than the Devil to those whose actions are based solely around "feels" and are proven wrong by Vivienne time and again.
They could have dealt with the extremists if the Free
Mages if weren't hounded and beaten down by the Templars for a year.
The effectiveness of a system is not determined by how well it functions when things are at their best but by how well it functions when they are at their worst.
What you are saying here is " Mages will police themselves except if they feel there is a good enough reason not to."
I hope I don't have to explain why this means they can't be trusted to police themselves.
Vivienne is a realistic and pragmatic character
Bioware made a troll character that neither fits their leftist narrative or paints a strawman caricature of the conservative right.
She is surprisingly adult and mature for such a setting.
PC libs don't like her, and Bioware made her black on purpose just to fish a reaction from the "non-progressives"
She is a character who favors her mind over her heart and logic over emotion which, naturally, leads to her being right most of the time.
Evidently, this makes her worse than the Devil to those whose actions are based solely around "feels" and are proven wrong by Vivienne time and again.
I'm fairly sure I've never been proven wrong by Vivienne. I mean, she said that Leliana becoming Divine would be tantamount to starting a doomed war between mages and mundanes, and that definitely didn't happen. She thought that the Inquisition's mages would be susceptible to possession, and that didn't happen either.
I'm just saying that you can't actually give her props for not using magic to rule over people when that isn't allowed in the south. That's like praising the segregationist governor George Wallace for not having slaves.
Xil, considering you've (repeatedly) advocated genocide and oppressive police states in the past if you had the power to pull it off... you're not the best person to make this argument.
I'm not disputing Vivienne was a well written character, she was. It was interesting to encounter someone who viewed the Circles as a necessity. But as a person I cannot stand her. Vivienne has this personality to where everything she says is right and everything you say is wrong (unless of course you happen to give her an idea that she would never have thought of). Vivienne has no consideration that perhaps maybe her ideas are wrong.
But let me get into her actual actions and words.
The first time you meet Vivienne she immediately freezes a disrespecting marquee. Your character has the choice, to kill him, let him go or let Vivienne choose. Let us back track for a moment. Vivienne clearly is an Andrastian. Yet being a follower of the faith she does not uphold the critical saying of The Chantry, "Magic should serve man not rule over him." However she chooses to break this by showing the marquee she has power over him with magic. You could argue this maybe an Orlais thing giving the fact The Duke in DA 2 could kill a disrespecting hunter. But there is a difference. The gentleman in DA 2 was caught trying to cheat and cheating can be a serious crime. Whereas all the Marquee did was make some small rude comments to the Inquisitor. Vivienne could have easily and politely asked him to leave.
Speaking with Vivienne is a lot like talking to a wall. No matter what you say or do, the outcome is generally the same: you are wrong and she is right. My husband plays a Dalish Elf. I see and listen to his conversations between Vivienne and there appalling. Vivienne comes off knowing more about the Dalish then his own Dalish character does.
After Haven is attacked and you speak with Vivienne in Skyhold, "She snaps at you and says, "Haven was a poor choice as a base of operations." I'm sorry. My character forgot to check her e-mail to read the letter from Cory that says, "We are coming for you." I'm also sorry my character did not go Reality.com to see if there were any other bases up for sale. There was no need for Vivienne to lash out like that. Be angry The Inquisition got attacked and above all those they lost. But to be p!ssed about the location is like getting mad an earthquake destroyed your home yet you choose to live in a place with frequent earthquakes. The Inquisition is at War and War is always unpredictable as is the ground you choose to settle on. If The Inquisition choose to move earlier, who is to say they would not be attacked there or on the way there.
Oh no. Vivienne is moving my furniture. Yep, its true. She hates my character so much instead of being a big girl and talking with my character about it, Vivienne chooses to rearrange Skyhold's furniture. When you question her about it, Vivienne says, "Its not your furniture it belongs to The Inquisition." Um. You were living in Bastion's home. And you said to the Marquee, "I don't tolerate such language in MY house." I'm not going to even go into this even further. To do something like this is childish and petty. And making statements like Vivienne said shows just a small piece of how full of sh!t. she really is.
But let's get into why she wants to join The Inquisition.
Blackwall makes a statement about this, "Madame Vivienne only joined the Inquisition to further her own power. Sometimes the most beautiful snakes are the most poisonous."
And you know what? He is right.
Vivienne's lover is dying. The Chantry is a mess. The Circles have fallen. Orlais is in a state of chaos.
Vivienne desperately needs a place to where she can continue her power leeching and improve it.
To her The Inquisition is like a miracle.
Thus she joins (if you accept her).
Yes, she will run around and fight by your side. But people who have power and crave more will do anything to maintain said power.
You see, Vivienne was First Enchanter. If you understand the lore of DA, First Enchanters are in charge of the Circle. Once the rebellion began Vivienne lost that source of power. With that removed from Vivienne's arsenal it was probably like getting your legs cut off. This is why she believes what she believes so strongly. This is why half the time what Vivienne says can easily be disputed. In order to maintain a position sometimes one must have logical and in Vivienne's case disputable beliefs when in the position. So long as Vivienne believes Circles are needed, she has a place of power.
As for her lover, Bastion, I am sure somewhere in the depths of her cold- heart she may have loved him. However on the whole it’s a good show she tries to put on but her acting is just horrible. The only reason why she chose to be with Bastion is because - again, power, money and security. Once he is dead she will most likely have none of those. Vivienne made a youth serum because she wanted to save her lover? Please. Vivienne created it to keep her position. When you sabotage her formula she doesn’t get angry because you helped kill Bastion, she congratulates you on playing The Game so well. If you choose to give her the right Wyvern heart, she becomes upset Bastion is gone but no emotion beyond that. No matter how strong you are, if you truly love someone you would be inconsolable. You might ask, why did Vivienne not just marry Bastion? I don't believe Vivienne has any intention of marrying anyone. Milking a cow yields a longer investment then just buying a jug of milk. When the cow dies, you can buy a new one.
Vivienne claims that all Mages are subjected to demonic possession. True. But after returning from the Abyss, she asks, me, "You went into the Fade. Please tell me everything." I respond and then Vivienne says, "I am positively envious of you right now." Um. The Fade is a place no one should enter physically even as a Mage. The dangers of being possessed are increased ten fold. Also the Fade is where The Chantry/Duncan states: "Mages tried to usurp heaven and instead they destroyed it." So Vivienne is envious I walked into The Fade considering how dangerous it is AND the fact is not suppose to be done for fear of what could happen? Being envious of my character having the last slice of cake is fine. Being envious my character walked physically through The Fade is wrong on many levels.
At the end of Inquisition and your not friends with Vivienne. She bluntly thanks you for letting her join the Inquisition. Because of this, The Council of Heralds took Vivienne within their fold. Thus you helped raised her position. You then can say to Vivienne, "You used me." Vivienne then responds, "That is how The Game is played."
I tend to view Vivienne as someone who is not only hypocritical but also someone who would do well in Tevinter. She cares only for herself and how far she can climb. Vivienne may show she cares about people but less people means less people Vivienne can push around. Thedas is Vivienne's chess board and the people within are her chess pieces. At some point in Vivienne's life she got a taste of power and could not get enough of it.
For someone who says, "Magic is dangerous just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets that gets burned." just shows how full of sh!t they really are. A man wield a sword can be just as dangerous as a Mage wielding magic. It just depends on who the person is and how they choose to use it. But when it comes to some power hungry shrew who plays The Game, I view them to be a far bigger danger than any mage.
Sure, you can make Vivienne Divine. But doing so only gives what Vivienne seeks - more power and the opportunity to use such power. It states that Vivienne firmly leashes the Templars to her. Um. Bad idea. The same was done to the Mages and look how that turned out. You cannot tighten a leash on a dog and expect consequences not to follow. As for The Circles are restored. Mages being given more freedom and privileges sounds all good. However I must ask at what cost? Cassandra states in Trespasser, "Vivienne is a tyrant." Which is not surprising. The signs are there, blaring at you like a neon sign this was bound to happen. If Vivienne is this way now, what happens in ten years? Vivienne may show to do good but there is always an underlying agenda. Keep people in line and you have the power. People who go out of line and you lose that power. Thus I believe over the years, Vivienne leash will only become tighter until it finally snaps and all hell will break loose across Thedas.
My dislike of Vivienne is the fact, I knew someone in my family who was exactly like her. In the end, (sighs) well, it did not end well. People like Vivienne are dangerous. They care mostly for themselves and only for others when the need arises. Being around Vivienne is like being around a wolf. You never know when it is going to tear you to pieces.
By all means, if you are one of those people that enjoys her character, that is your choice. I for one do not like her at all. Out of all the games I have played in my thirty plus years of gaming, Vivienne is the most hated character I have ever come across. Villains come in all different forms and sizes. Some are more upfront with their diabolical goals. Others, like Vivienne lurk in the shadows and try their best not to reveal their goals. Being a mage the last thing Vivienne should be doing is seeking more power and how to hold on to it.
Oh and one last thing. Every time Vivienne says, "My Dear" or "Darling" a mabari puppy dies.
Wall of text of how someone dislike Vivienne. I will give it a pass.
She brings a perspective to Dragon Age that was sorely lacking. Oh, we'd heard from the moderates (Wynne) and the radicals (Anders), but we'd never heard from the mages who recognized there were problems with the Circle system but were largely OK with its existence. I got along with her famously, as we rarely disagreed on anything.
Also, she had magnificent breasts. So there's that.
I agree. My canon character sees her as a mentor, but I have another one who disagrees with her on everything. I think what I like most about Vivienne is that she is an exceptionally strong and fiery woman, but she is still a lady in every respect.
Magical bosoms!
I'm not disputing Vivienne was a well written character, she was. It was interesting to encounter someone who viewed the Circles as a necessity. But as a person I cannot stand her. Vivienne has this personality to where everything she says is right and everything you say is wrong (unless of course you happen to give her an idea that she would never have thought of). Vivienne has no consideration that perhaps maybe her ideas are wrong.
But let me get into her actual actions and words.
The first time you meet Vivienne she immediately freezes a disrespecting marquee. Your character has the choice, to kill him, let him go or let Vivienne choose. Let us back track for a moment. Vivienne clearly is an Andrastian. Yet being a follower of the faith she does not uphold the critical saying of The Chantry, "Magic should serve man not rule over him." However she chooses to break this by showing the marquee she has power over him with magic. You could argue this maybe an Orlais thing giving the fact The Duke in DA 2 could kill a disrespecting hunter. But there is a difference. The gentleman in DA 2 was caught trying to cheat and cheating can be a serious crime. Whereas all the Marquee did was make some small rude comments to the Inquisitor. Vivienne could have easily and politely asked him to leave.
Speaking with Vivienne is a lot like talking to a wall. No matter what you say or do, the outcome is generally the same: you are wrong and she is right. My husband plays a Dalish Elf. I see and listen to his conversations between Vivienne and there appalling. Vivienne comes off knowing more about the Dalish then his own Dalish character does.
After Haven is attacked and you speak with Vivienne in Skyhold, "She snaps at you and says, "Haven was a poor choice as a base of operations." I'm sorry. My character forgot to check her e-mail to read the letter from Cory that says, "We are coming for you." I'm also sorry my character did not go Reality.com to see if there were any other bases up for sale. There was no need for Vivienne to lash out like that. Be angry The Inquisition got attacked and above all those they lost. But to be p!ssed about the location is like getting mad an earthquake destroyed your home yet you choose to live in a place with frequent earthquakes. The Inquisition is at War and War is always unpredictable as is the ground you choose to settle on. If The Inquisition choose to move earlier, who is to say they would not be attacked there or on the way there.
Oh no. Vivienne is moving my furniture. Yep, its true. She hates my character so much instead of being a big girl and talking with my character about it, Vivienne chooses to rearrange Skyhold's furniture. When you question her about it, Vivienne says, "Its not your furniture it belongs to The Inquisition." Um. You were living in Bastion's home. And you said to the Marquee, "I don't tolerate such language in MY house." I'm not going to even go into this even further. To do something like this is childish and petty. And making statements like Vivienne said shows just a small piece of how full of sh!t. she really is.
But let's get into why she wants to join The Inquisition.
Blackwall makes a statement about this, "Madame Vivienne only joined the Inquisition to further her own power. Sometimes the most beautiful snakes are the most poisonous."
And you know what? He is right.
Vivienne's lover is dying. The Chantry is a mess. The Circles have fallen. Orlais is in a state of chaos.
Vivienne desperately needs a place to where she can continue her power leeching and improve it.
To her The Inquisition is like a miracle.
Thus she joins (if you accept her).
Yes, she will run around and fight by your side. But people who have power and crave more will do anything to maintain said power.
You see, Vivienne was First Enchanter. If you understand the lore of DA, First Enchanters are in charge of the Circle. Once the rebellion began Vivienne lost that source of power. With that removed from Vivienne's arsenal it was probably like getting your legs cut off. This is why she believes what she believes so strongly. This is why half the time what Vivienne says can easily be disputed. In order to maintain a position sometimes one must have logical and in Vivienne's case disputable beliefs when in the position. So long as Vivienne believes Circles are needed, she has a place of power.
As for her lover, Bastion, I am sure somewhere in the depths of her cold- heart she may have loved him. However on the whole it’s a good show she tries to put on but her acting is just horrible. The only reason why she chose to be with Bastion is because - again, power, money and security. Once he is dead she will most likely have none of those. Vivienne made a youth serum because she wanted to save her lover? Please. Vivienne created it to keep her position. When you sabotage her formula she doesn’t get angry because you helped kill Bastion, she congratulates you on playing The Game so well. If you choose to give her the right Wyvern heart, she becomes upset Bastion is gone but no emotion beyond that. No matter how strong you are, if you truly love someone you would be inconsolable. You might ask, why did Vivienne not just marry Bastion? I don't believe Vivienne has any intention of marrying anyone. Milking a cow yields a longer investment then just buying a jug of milk. When the cow dies, you can buy a new one.
Vivienne claims that all Mages are subjected to demonic possession. True. But after returning from the Abyss, she asks, me, "You went into the Fade. Please tell me everything." I respond and then Vivienne says, "I am positively envious of you right now." Um. The Fade is a place no one should enter physically even as a Mage. The dangers of being possessed are increased ten fold. Also the Fade is where The Chantry/Duncan states: "Mages tried to usurp heaven and instead they destroyed it." So Vivienne is envious I walked into The Fade considering how dangerous it is AND the fact is not suppose to be done for fear of what could happen? Being envious of my character having the last slice of cake is fine. Being envious my character walked physically through The Fade is wrong on many levels.
At the end of Inquisition and your not friends with Vivienne. She bluntly thanks you for letting her join the Inquisition. Because of this, The Council of Heralds took Vivienne within their fold. Thus you helped raised her position. You then can say to Vivienne, "You used me." Vivienne then responds, "That is how The Game is played."
I tend to view Vivienne as someone who is not only hypocritical but also someone who would do well in Tevinter. She cares only for herself and how far she can climb. Vivienne may show she cares about people but less people means less people Vivienne can push around. Thedas is Vivienne's chess board and the people within are her chess pieces. At some point in Vivienne's life she got a taste of power and could not get enough of it.
For someone who says, "Magic is dangerous just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets that gets burned." just shows how full of sh!t they really are. A man wield a sword can be just as dangerous as a Mage wielding magic. It just depends on who the person is and how they choose to use it. But when it comes to some power hungry shrew who plays The Game, I view them to be a far bigger danger than any mage.
Sure, you can make Vivienne Divine. But doing so only gives what Vivienne seeks - more power and the opportunity to use such power. It states that Vivienne firmly leashes the Templars to her. Um. Bad idea. The same was done to the Mages and look how that turned out. You cannot tighten a leash on a dog and expect consequences not to follow. As for The Circles are restored. Mages being given more freedom and privileges sounds all good. However I must ask at what cost? Cassandra states in Trespasser, "Vivienne is a tyrant." Which is not surprising. The signs are there, blaring at you like a neon sign this was bound to happen. If Vivienne is this way now, what happens in ten years? Vivienne may show to do good but there is always an underlying agenda. Keep people in line and you have the power. People who go out of line and you lose that power. Thus I believe over the years, Vivienne leash will only become tighter until it finally snaps and all hell will break loose across Thedas.
My dislike of Vivienne is the fact, I knew someone in my family who was exactly like her. In the end, (sighs) well, it did not end well. People like Vivienne are dangerous. They care mostly for themselves and only for others when the need arises. Being around Vivienne is like being around a wolf. You never know when it is going to tear you to pieces.
By all means, if you are one of those people that enjoys her character, that is your choice. I for one do not like her at all. Out of all the games I have played in my thirty plus years of gaming, Vivienne is the most hated character I have ever come across. Villains come in all different forms and sizes. Some are more upfront with their diabolical goals. Others, like Vivienne lurk in the shadows and try their best not to reveal their goals. Being a mage the last thing Vivienne should be doing is seeking more power and how to hold on to it.
Oh and one last thing. Every time Vivienne says, "My Dear" or "Darling" a mabari puppy dies.
.......
"Wrong"?
.......
Vivienne?......
Nope.
She is a character who favors her mind over her heart and logic over emotion which, naturally, leads to her being right most of the time.
Evidently, this makes her worse than the Devil to those whose actions are based solely around "feels" and are proven wrong by Vivienne time and again.
You're quite mistaken. I disagree with 99% of the things Vivienne says. But I consider myself quite the utilitarian. I favor decisions that benefit all, and not a single group. Vivienne and people of her ilk are as anti-utilitarian as it get's. Their decisions are not based on the benefit of the people, but decisions that further their personal wants or decisions that reflect their fears and superstitions. See her ending were Leliana is Divine. rather then support the college in order to help secure stability to this new order of mages, or hell, create a order of knight enchanters to replace the templars, she instead creates a new circle with no need or reason and risks more war with mages, as the ending states both groups barelly tolerate each other. Her move goes completely against everything she preached during the main game.
I see I'm fashionably late to this conversation. <Vivienne greatly approves>
Vivienne remains one of the most fascinating and, in my opinion, enjoyable characters in the entire series. She's definitely one of my top three of all time. Possibly even the top of the top. She's fabulous.
What gives?
Don't worry though. I've been defending her on and off for the both of us.
Not that she even needs defending, but you know.
I understand that is your opinion of her. Its not really what I am referring to, though. I am responding to the several instances where people have pointed out things that could legitimately be interpreted as Vivienne being less heartless than she seems and you keep replying with things like "that doesn't compute. she's still scum" etc. It really does read like, no matter what she does, you wouldn't be able to accept she's not simply a cold-hearted ***** b/c that's simply not your view of her. And all evidence to the contrary is classified as "being odd" or "a writing inconsistency" when, honestly, it might just be that the instances seem basically OOC to you b/c you aren't taking all of her character into account. You're focused on the bad conclusions you've come to and refusing to re-assess.
Welcome to BSN. I assume you're knew to Xil?
This is old hat. It wouldn't be the first topic in which you can directly confront her and get her to admit over-reach and back down... and then see the same point made the next time the topic comes around.
Mabari are terrifying. (Cullen get away from that monster!)
Keep saying "My dear" and "Darling" Vivienne.
For someone who says, "Magic is dangerous just as fire is dangerous. Anyone who forgets that gets burned." just shows how full of sh!t they really are. A man wield a sword can be just as dangerous as a Mage wielding magic. It just depends on who the person is and how they choose to use it.
A tired and inaccurate analogy. A swordsman cannot kill people in order to summon demons. A sword cannot be used to control people's minds. A sword cannot turn you into a mass-murdering monster (barring certain magic swords) that slaughters whole villages.
Blackwall makes a statement about this, "Madame Vivienne only joined the Inquisition to further her own power."
Of course she did. But it was a mutually beneficial arrangement, and she performed her role exceptionally.
Please I respect Vivi.
I would never have her as Divine. But I respect Vivi.
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