When I think of good moral choices, I tend to think about moral dilemmas, not "Do you want to be a hero or a jackass?"
Now, playing an evil run can be interesting, like in the D&D games or KotOR, and I wouldn't mind seeing a game like that again. However, I wouldn't call them good moral choices, just "do you want to play good or evil?"
@OP I agree with you but I think those days may be over for the Dragon Age Franchise. Some months ago, Patrick Weekes and his wife Karin Weekes did a podcast interview that leads me to think this.
In the interview, Karin Weekes said that she thinks Biowares job is "Fantasy Fulfillment". Everyone wants to be a hero so that's why the player starts out with a nominal level of awesomeness. She said that to her being able to be a jerk through the whole game and saying hurtful things like racist remarks, did not meet her definition of "Fantasy Fulfillment". Patrick Weekes jumped in and used Krem as an example. He said he was willing to accept that a lone 16 year old boy, out in the middle of nowhere, may not have heard anything about the transgender issue. He was willing to let him ask a few questions to learn more but he was not willing to allow him to say anything negative or hurtful to Krem. Because that did not meet his definition of "Fantasy Fulfillment".
Since Mike Laidlaw, among others, has made similar remarks, it sounds to me like Bioware or at least the Dragon Age Studio, may be moving to make games that appeal more to players who want to play as an awesome Mary-Sue type hero. Basically, the Ultimate Hero. Some people may like that idea and some may not. Of course, this is just my interpretation and I could be very wrong so I'll provide the links for anyone who wants to hear it.
I have never been able to successfully post links here so I will tell you where to find the link.
Part 1 can be found in the Twitter Thread on page 3061. It is in a post made by Hrungr #76518.
The interview starts at 40 min. In this part, Patrick Weekes and Karin Weekes talk about getting into the video game business and their time at Mass Effect. I found it interesting.
Part 2 can be found in the Twitter Thread on page 3069. Again, a post by Hrungr #76719. It begins at 29:45. This part talks about their time at Dragon Age.
Yeah, I kind of miss that. Too bad DAI doesn't let us fully become an evil dictator.
I miss the ability to say over-the-top needlessly cruel things just for the laughs. That doesn't work with a paraphrase wheel.
Sometimes I just wanna be Dr. House or Melvin Udall!
When I think of good moral choices, I tend to think about moral dilemmas, not "Do you want to be a hero or a jackass?"
Now, playing an evil run can be interesting, like in the D&D games or KotOR, and I wouldn't mind seeing a game like that again. However, I wouldn't call them good moral choices, just "do you want to play good or evil?"
I agree. I am more interested in ''do you want to exile or keep the Wardens'' or ''do you support Celene, Gaspard, Briala, or some combination of those'' choices than I am in the ''do this if you're a saint, do that if you eat babies'' choices. Moral dilemnas are just way more interesting than good vs evil.
I agree. I am more interested in ''do you want to exile or keep the Wardens'' or ''do you support Celene, Gaspard, Briala, or some combination of those'' choices than I am in the ''do this if you're a saint, do that if you eat babies'' choices. Moral dilemnas are just way more interesting than good vs evil.
Personally the game didn't make me care enough about those choices to care which one I choose and it ends up functionally the same no matter what. If the choices in DA:I were like the choices in TW3 it would be a different story but sometimes it's also fun to be super campy and evil rather than neutral or polite.
The fact that the Inquisitor can become a Red Jenny is a shy, but efficient attempt to run away from this confining obligation of being an idealised hero.
Jennies aren't morally superior. They follow a code of their own. Work in secrecy. Don't take sides. Fight for the underdog. Are considered by high society to be nothing more than bandits and troublemakers. So having the option to turn the almighty Inquisitor into someone who is close to a bandit and despised by most civilised people is quite something.
I'm glad to see so many Jade Empire fans on this tread. 
Anyway, I agree with the OP. After DA:O, Bioware games have lost their 'moral spectrum' of choices. 'You are the protagonist and therefore you must be good' - that's pretty much the mentality the recent Bioware games have forced players into.
I would also like to see the return of "Persuade" and "Intimidate" dialogue options. Those were fun and they added alternative ways to solve conflicts.
I suspect the lack of decent moral choices and Evil dialogue options is thoroughly related to our lackluster villain: which is to say, Bioware no longer has any writers who are not politically correct and are actually willing to put themselves in a villain's shoes.
Here's the problem with your statement....The villain was never Cory. he was just a pawn doomed to Falure from the start.
The villain was by your side from the start.
The devils greatest trick was getting the world to believe he was not real.
I'm glad to see so many Jade Empire fans on this tread.
Anyway, I agree with the OP. After DA:O, Bioware games have lost their 'moral spectrum' of choices. 'You are the protagonist and therefore you must be good' - that's pretty much the mentality the recent Bioware games have forced players into.
I would also like to see the return of "Persuade" and "Intimidate" dialogue options. Those were fun and they added alternative ways to solve conflicts.
More like it's not about being good or evil than lack of a specturm. You can totally be a horrible person, you just can't be the villain or truly evil. That not the point of the story.
I hope we get the option back - I always like to do 'good' and 'evil' playthoughs if the option exists. On that line, during their first playthrough of DAI did anyone else think that we were actually going to get an option to turn evil at the end? Cory calling you a rival, and the conversation with Morrigan about you potentially being able to do the exact thing that Cory was trying... thought we were going to get to try and become a god. Which, as OP pointed out is pretty much what you get the option of doing in Jade Empire. Baldur's Gate as well, and KOTOR (ok, not quite a god in KOTOR - but becoming the new big bad).
Never played this Jade Empire.
It has its flaws: lots of invisible walls in combat, a handful of nonsense-babble lines instead of actual VO for many characters to cut costs and disc space (same as in KotOR), and a domestic violence victim as comic relief AKA Bioware's worst character f*ckup ever. But even considering those problems, I think it's a sadly underrated gem of a game with a refreshingly different setting and Bioware's best villain ever by a light year. Worth picking up IMO, though like KotOR it doesn't like Windows 7+ much.
There are no damn consequences - ever in the main story.
I recall seeing a video of the developers showing off the prologue. They made a big song and dance about how choosing the mountain pass or the other direction was your first choice and making an impact.
Same as in Origins, really. I clearly remember them claiming that the different ways of dealing with the caged thief/deserter a Ostagar would have a real impact. And you can defile a holy relic, sell the alienage into slavery, use blood magic, let werewolves run rampant etc. yet still be treated exactly the same as a more "heroic" character. Origins isn't a game I'd hold up as superior in terms of meaingful choices i.e. ones that actually have consequences
Though I agree that Inquisition has more illogical binary choices, and they are usually presented quite badly. The writers apparently wanted to remove "optimal" choices without drawbacks (e.g. letting the horrible situation in Redcliffe continue to take a detour to the Circle and possibly elsewhere instead of dealing with it immediately), which is a good idea on principle but fails when hardly any choice has any impact at all.
I for one am all about choices and the consequences that follow in games. Considering this is an Inquisition you would think from a logical standpoint that previous choices/consequences from other games would be ants compared to those in DAI. But they are not. Hell they are not even there.
And what little choice and impact we thought we were allowed to have is erased altogether with Trespasser. 
I miss having the option to be evil or ruthless. In DA:I the choices are A or B rather than good or evil. The closest thing you can get to being evil is just not intervening when Celine gets assassinated, but even that is portrayed as for the "greater good" (Gaspard will be a better ruler, etc...). I also miss all the little flavor choices that helped define your character's personality. Finding lost goats and collecting rocks just doesn't cut it.
*snip*
and a domestic violence victim as comic relief AKA Bioware's worst character f*ckup ever.
*snip*
I agree with the whole post, but this, this so much. It bothered me quite a lot when I played.
I agree with the whole post, but this, this so much. It bothered me quite a lot when I played.
Dont get me started on this again.
Fantastic game but Bioware failed utterly to provide an RP experience for people wanting to RP darker or villanous characters. On the issue of Tevinter (talking with Dorian) I have no choice to side with Tevinter ideology. When it comes to slavery I have no option to choose in favor of slavery. Can't attempt to join, even ask to join - Corypheus. All the envy visions? I wanted to do all that and laugh at the envy demon for showing me what my plan already was. You cant be power hungry and you cant be corrupt.
The Inquisitor is a one-dimensional character with a linear story and personality arc. It is as if Bioware wanted to make a movie, not a game, and have us play the part of their character. Again fantastic game but as a roleplaying game it is a failure. The worst part is... I'm not even sure Bioware are self-aware of how limiting they made the Inquisitor.
All the envy visions? I wanted to do all that and laugh at the envy demon for showing me what my plan already was. You cant be power hungry and you cant be corrupt.
Imagine though how much worse it would have been if it hadn't been the husband, but the wife who was the victim of the abuse ;-) lol
But ya that character was quite bad
There is nothing "worse" about that. it is equally bad, no matter which gender is in that situation.
It's like Hollywood using female on male rape as a total joke, used in romantic comedies for gags. It only becomes "worse" because the genders are switched. That is not how things work.
When I think of good moral choices, I tend to think about moral dilemmas, not "Do you want to be a hero or a jackass?"
Now, playing an evil run can be interesting, like in the D&D games or KotOR, and I wouldn't mind seeing a game like that again. However, I wouldn't call them good moral choices, just "do you want to play good or evil?"
Also this, moral choices are not "Be good or be a jackass?". No, Moral choices is what the Grey Warden choice should have been. I agonized about that choice for a freaking hour, only now to realize it's worthless. Giving us deeper choices is not as simple as "Let me flip off my companions while I cackle manically and wipe my ass on their clothes". That is something I do not miss, and don't care for it's return. But deeper choices with actual consequences? I'm all for that.
There is nothing "worse" about that. it is equally bad, no matter which gender is in that situation.
It's like Hollywood using female on male rape as a total joke, used in romantic comedies for gags. It only becomes "worse" because the genders are switched. That is not how things work.
I'm glad to see so many Jade Empire fans on this tread.
Anyway, I agree with the OP. After DA:O, Bioware games have lost their 'moral spectrum' of choices. 'You are the protagonist and therefore you must be good' - that's pretty much the mentality the recent Bioware games have forced players into.
I would also like to see the return of "Persuade" and "Intimidate" dialogue options. Those were fun and they added alternative ways to solve conflicts.
Not true. You could roleplay a pretty evil Hawke - DA:I is the only exception in the series in terms of range of moral choices. Unless you don't consider handing your companion over to the Qunari for re-education, selling other companion into slavery and killing your own sister as evil.
HAHA...oh, wow. What a joke@OP I agree with you but I think those days may be over for the Dragon Age Franchise. Some months ago, Patrick Weekes and his wife Karin Weekes did a podcast interview that leads me to think this.
In the interview, Karin Weekes said that she thinks Biowares job is "Fantasy Fulfillment". Everyone wants to be a hero so that's why the player starts out with a nominal level of awesomeness. She said that to her being able to be a jerk through the whole game and saying hurtful things like racist remarks, did not meet her definition of "Fantasy Fulfillment". Patrick Weekes jumped in and used Krem as an example. He said he was willing to accept that a lone 16 year old boy, out in the middle of nowhere, may not have heard anything about the transgender issue. He was willing to let him ask a few questions to learn more but he was not willing to allow him to say anything negative or hurtful to Krem. Because that did not meet his definition of "Fantasy Fulfillment".
Since Mike Laidlaw, among others, has made similar remarks, it sounds to me like Bioware or at least the Dragon Age Studio, may be moving to make games that appeal more to players who want to play as an awesome Mary-Sue type hero. Basically, the Ultimate Hero. Some people may like that idea and some may not. Of course, this is just my interpretation and I could be very wrong so I'll provide the links for anyone who wants to hear it.
I have never been able to successfully post links here so I will tell you where to find the link.
Part 1 can be found in the Twitter Thread on page 3061. It is in a post made by Hrungr #76518.
The interview starts at 40 min. In this part, Patrick Weekes and Karin Weekes talk about getting into the video game business and their time at Mass Effect. I found it interesting.
Part 2 can be found in the Twitter Thread on page 3069. Again, a post by Hrungr #76719. It begins at 29:45. This part talks about their time at Dragon Age.
HAHA...oh, wow. What a joke
Well, can't say I'm optimistic about the future of this series. I can only hope that Mass Effect stays true to its core
So in other words, they view "Fantasy Fulfillment" as "Be as politically correct and as inoffensive as possible". Wonderful...
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