23 réponses à ce sujet

[kevinihate32]

Lyrium is the blood of Titans accdording to "Descent" DLC, the great great great great great grandpappy of all dwarves, and now I think of them as "dwarfic vampires" that uses the Titan's blood to combat "Blood Mages" or malefecars.

 

I hope there is an expansion exploring in this turn of events. I don't see blood mages as evil, its how the people who use them. Kings and the nobility have killed, tortured and raped countless innocent civilians (From Dragon Age origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition) for their greed and power. Then to be born a mage especially when tapping the powers of blood magic is instantaneous death or social stigma.

 

I wonder if the chantry themselves would prohibit the use of lyrium when this is shed to light, or would they give an OK signal because its not "Human" blood.

 

Another follow up question is that when I'm to become a blood mage, is dwarf blood more powerful than a humans, its seems that the top tier blood comes from Dragons. (Warden's uses blight blood so each type of blood have magical propeties within them)

[The Baconer]

If you want to be pedantic, I suppose. Of course, this dilemma already existed before the Titan revelation in the form of phylacteries.

 

It doesn't really matter.

[Ashaantha]

Seems to be as good a place as any to put this. The Chantry, well Templars, use phylacteries, the vials containing blood of mages plus enchanted which they use to track the mage it belongs to. Grey area as the blood is just a component/ingredient of that spell but they are still using blood in a spell to find these runaway mages.

 

Though, like I said, I think that is shoved into the "grey area" in whether it's blood magic or not.

[Daerog]

Heed the words of a learned Magister of the Tevinter Imperium: Responsible Blood Magic.

 

 

Edit: Also, a major reason to outlaw blood magic is to not give practitioners the temptation to mess with the minds of others. Blood magic allows mages to do more... unethical things compared to just using lyrium. Then again, they could just improve the research of Adralla and teach everyone, including mundanes, how to defend themselves against blood magic and dreamers.

[thats1evildude]

I think analogies are not meant to be wielded like blunt instruments.

Yeah, lyrium is the "blood" of the titans, but we're talking about a mineral substance derived from giant stone monsters that live in the ground. It's not the same as the blood that pumps in your veins.

Also, templars drink lyrium to get their powers. Blood mages spill blood to use it as a power source; it is the act of sacrifice that gives blood magic its potency.

[Ieldra]

Heed the words of a learned Magister of the Tevinter Imperium: Responsible Blood Magic.

A typical case of ideology overriding logic - two of those examples make no sense: first, blood magic doesn't always require a death, and second, the quoted example about fighting qunari is a matter of appropriate tactics and doesn't have anything to do with the usefulness of blood magic as such.
 

Edit: Also, a major reason to outlaw blood magic is to not give practitioners the temptation to mess with the minds of others. Blood magic allows mages to do more... unethical things compared to just using lyrium. Then again, they could just improve the research of Adralla and teach everyone, including mundanes, how to defend themselves against blood magic and dreamers.

I've always wondered if blood magic is supposed to be that subtle. Because in the in-game examples it never is, and even in the books it's easily discernible by those who know what to look for. Sure, the thought of someone in power being controlled by an unknown agent in the dark is frightening, but as far as I recall, it's always been obvious at least to the affected, and it should be almost impossible to keep such control up indefinitely and without interruption.

Now if this was true mind-control - control *of* the mind rather than control of your actions by another one's mind - then this would be truly frightening, for then the affected would do things and never know whether the decision originated in their own mind, or was implanted by another. This hits rather close to home in an existential sense:

"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?" -- from "The Darkness That Comes Before", by R Scott Bakker
 

[NRieh]

 

, and now I think of them as "dwarfic vampires" that uses the Titan's blood to combat "Blood Mages" or malefecars.

Just curious, what do you think of people who like honey. Cause honey, you know. Basically people are eating something that had been eaten, digested, fermented, spewed and condensed by an insect before.

[Xcorpyo]

Well, this might be another way in which we may say that the Templars are using blood magic besides the philacteries.

 

But by that logic, we can say that all magic is blood magic. After all, mages are people with a high amount of lyrium in their own blood, lyrium that allows them to call upon the powers of the Fade. Same for the Templars, they can only use their skills once the lyrium in their blood has reached a high enough value that it can help the caster use his mojo.

 

We also know that mages also use lyrium or lyrium potions to increase their powers or do more complicated rituals or spells. As I see magic, the lyrium in a mage’s blood, it’s like a mini-battery of sorts, but as a biological component, like some sort of blue blood cells, besides the red and white blood cells present in any human being. When a mage uses mana the normal way, the lyrium cells discharge their mana load, and they can’t be used again until they are charged again, either by the passage of time, or by imbibing a potion.

 

Blood magic ups the ante and uses the entire ‘lyrium blood cell’ in the process, destroying it completely, but giving the user a much greater momentary power boost, at the cost of having to wait longer for those lost cells to be recreated and then recharged. Well, that goes for the user using his own blood, I guess there’s no problem if he uses the blood of his enemy/just an unlucky victim.

 

And I believe there is another drawback to blood magic, but this is just a wild theory with no proof other than everybody seems to know ‘blood magic is bad’, but can’t explain why that is.

Well, my theory is that using blood magic(as in completely destroying the lyrium blood cells) continuously is a big no no because when the destroyed lyrium blood cells are replenished in the bloodstream, some of the lyrium used in an unnatural way turns to red lyrium. As a matter of fact, this might actually be how the red lyrium was created in the first place. And if the mage is using the blood of another, some of the ‘taint’ might still be transmited to his own blood, in the magical backlash of the unnatural use of magic.

 

So, the more blood magic someone uses, the more red lyrium he has in his blood, thus making him more susceptible to outside influences. Not to mention completely bonkers, taking a page from Belatrix Lestrange’s book of ’How to go cray cray by using too much dark magic’. .

[abisha]

according to Tevinter blood magic is only blood magic when blood of a "slave" or a other is being used against their will

which makes total sense.

[Dai Grepher]

"Blood" is just a metaphor to explain what lyrium is to the titans.

[Daerog]

 

I've always wondered if blood magic is supposed to be that subtle. Because in the in-game examples it never is, and even in the books it's easily discernible by those who know what to look for. Sure, the thought of someone in power being controlled by an unknown agent in the dark is frightening, but as far as I recall, it's always been obvious at least to the affected, and it should be almost impossible to keep such control up indefinitely and without interruption.

Now if this was true mind-control - control *of* the mind rather than control of your actions by another one's mind - then this would be truly frightening, for then the affected would do things and never know whether the decision originated in their own mind, or was implanted by another. This hits rather close to home in an existential sense:

"The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?" -- from "The Darkness That Comes Before", by R Scott Bakker
 

 

In Dragon Age: Inquisition, the king of Nevarra was being "controlled" by a Venatori using blood magic. Now, I say "controlled" because I don't think he was being controlled like an RC Race Car or something, but more along the lines of King Theoden being controlled by Saruman.

 

His thoughts are being manipulated eventually to the point where he honestly believes the thoughts are his own, takes ownership of them, but they are actually constructs of an outside force.

 

If the Venatori is assassinated, it is as if the king "woke from a dream." If a person isn't lucid in a dream, the actions are theirs, but they are actions that may not actually be all thought out. The whole "waking as if from a dream," I think, gives a good understanding of what it is like for someone to be mind controlled by blood magic.

 

In the beginning, if one is vigilant, one may know if they are being manipulated, but if one goes too long without doing something, they will be puppets.

 

So, remember your Litany of Adralla, and be ever vigilant against the wicked who would turn the Maker's gift to evil deeds and a curse on the faithful!

[ModernAcademic]

I think analogies are not meant to be wielded like blunt instruments.

Yeah, lyrium is the "blood" of the titans, but we're talking about a mineral substance derived from giant stone monsters that live in the ground. It's not the same as the blood that pumps in your veins.

Also, templars drink lyrium to get their powers. Blood mages spill blood to use it as a power source; it is the act of sacrifice that gives blood magic its potency.

 

What if the rock is alive? What if it has consciousness (and it does, since it maintains telepathy with the dwarven people that venture into the Abyss)? Then it would be a mineral, yes, but also a form of life that deserves every respect as the organic do.

 

Think about the ethics involving how thedosians treat the Titans as nothing more than still life when the only difference between them and a human is that their bodies are made of stone, but their minds may be similar to that of a person, with a sense of self, for instance.

[Daerog]

What if the rock is alive? What if it has consciousness (and it does, since it maintains telepathy with the dwarven people that venture into the Abyss)? Then it would be a mineral, yes, but also a form of life that deserves every respect as the organic do.

 

Think about the ethics involving how thedosians treat the Titans as nothing more than still life when the only difference between them and a human is that their bodies are made of stone, but their minds may be similar to that of a person, with a sense of self, for instance.

 

Even if a living thing doesn't have a sense of self, it should still be respected just for being alive.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean harvesting stuff from a living being is bad.

 

So, there are trees and animals, but a "sense of self" was specifically mentioned... so... I guess humans are the only real example to go with on this.

 

Humans cut their hair, and at times donate that hair to others. Harvesting the lyrium could be like cutting the Titan's hair.

 

The woken Titan has not communicated to the Inquisitor to cease all harvesting of lyrium, so the harvesting that the dwarves do doesn't seem to have much of an impact on the Titan(s). It's not killing the Titan to harvest lyrium outside of its core, and the ancient dwarves use lyrium, so it seems to be a substance that is given out.

 

It's kind of hard to make claims on this stuff since the connection between lyrium, Titans, and the Fade is not entirely clear. Are the Titans the lyrium? Is the lyrium a byproduct of the Titans or a manifestation of their connection to the Fade? Is the lyrium harvested in the mines a part of the Titan, or is it stuff left behind by the Titan?

[Knight of Dane]

Lyrium =/= blood makes sense. We learned in the base game that 1) Lyrium is alive and 3) Corrupted lyrium = bligthed lyrium. Blight can also power magic, the darkspawn use it, and so it must also be a living essence of some kind.

 

Blood

Lyrium

Blight

 

Wonder if bioware will come up with something new. Lava magic.

[thats1evildude]

What if the rock is alive? What if it has consciousness (and it does, since it maintains telepathy with the dwarven people that venture into the Abyss)? Then it would be a mineral, yes, but also a form of life that deserves every respect as the organic do.

Think about the ethics involving how thedosians treat the Titans as nothing more than still life when the only difference between them and a human is that their bodies are made of stone, but their minds may be similar to that of a person, with a sense of self, for instance.

No, you misunderstand me. I'm not arguing that titans aren't living entities. I'm saying that literally equating lyrium with blood is a mistake.

[ModernAcademic]

No, you misunderstand me. I'm not arguing that titans aren't living entities. I'm saying that literally equating lyrium with blood is a mistake.

 

Alright.

[SwobyJ]

Look.

 

All this lore is done for at least one reason.

 

That reason being to soften our journey to being Tevinter.

 

Oh those evil Tevinter. 

 

That evil blood magic.

 

ooooo

 

ooo ga boo ga

 

Oh wait.

 

Blood magic is all over and it can be useful.

 

Blood magic is hypocritically used even by jailers of mages.

 

Blood magic is demonized to an arguably unnecessary point.

 

All magic is blood magic from a different perspective.

 

 

Templars are never using 'blood magic'... like the Chantry tends to define it. That doesn't change that they are effectively using magic of some form of what could be considered blood, or that they use the result of blood magic when it really suits them.

 

Blood magic is just most often the most dangerous sort on the realm of Thedas. Thus we need to be on guard against it. Yay, we've been on guard, so now lets go to Tevinter and move this damn story forward.

 

If the Templars are using what is effectively the blood of living beings, then it does throw into question much of the nature of the Chantry. Which is a lot of DAI in a nutshell so that's not new. Lets go to Tevinter to find out more!

 

Is the magic of blood (the blight?? to the source maybe; see Xcorpio's theory above) something to be suppressed and held back at all cost, or is it something we can learn to dominate over, and wield like we do blue lyrium? Stay tuned to the next episode of Dragon Age Z. Just always keep in mind the hubris of the Tevinter magisters (though on the other end, Andraste herself still ended up betrayed and killed, so is that worth following?).

[Its Waffle Time]

If blood magic required death.... explain Hawke and Merrill in DA2. Go!

[Daerog]

If blood magic required death.... explain Hawke and Merrill in DA2. Go!

 

It doesn't require death, but killing someone, violently, makes the blood magic more potent.

 

This is why slaves were sacrificed by the Seven instead of just being drained.

 

Killing a slave is not very cost-efficient.

 

Merrill is a sweet girl, but if she was not looked after by that Keeper and Hawke she would be an abomination.

[thats1evildude]

If blood magic required death.... explain Hawke and Merrill in DA2. Go!

Blood magic requires sacrifice. At the bare minimum, that might mean cutting your wrists or inflicting pain on someone else. But the more power you need (and as Dorian said, you always need more) the greater the sacrifice required. That's when you get into blood rituals and slaves murdered atop altars.

[Uccio]

Heed the words of a learned Magister of the Tevinter Imperium: Responsible Blood Magic.

 

 

Edit: Also, a major reason to outlaw blood magic is to not give practitioners the temptation to mess with the minds of others. Blood magic allows mages to do more... unethical things compared to just using lyrium. Then again, they could just improve the research of Adralla and teach everyone, including mundanes, how to defend themselves against blood magic and dreamers.

 

That codex entry has a funny way of downplaying blood magic. Tevinter uses it´s whole arsenal to fight the enemy which will destroy them completely given a change, both body and mind. Yet the write cries how "determined" the qunari were after magic was used on them. It made me chuckle, really? Like they were not determined already to destroy Tevinter completely? And the two examples were simply showing personal decisions, one made himself a monster and the second one sacrificed himself for love. The latter being a noble goal if anything, definitely not bad.

[Daerog]

- The way that magister used blood magic against the Qunari was like using chemical warfare. It changes the way the battle was waged. It was no longer just a battle, it was a war crime which would make the opposition, if they have the strength, have a greater desire to crush the other and give less thought to diplomacy. The Qunari don't wish to destroy the southern nations, they wish to bring them under the Qun.

 

- The lover that killed himself for the beloved: Noble? The Magister says it was, but she argues "what good is blood magic if the most noble use for it still costs the life of a good person?" I think that is a good question.

 

Ultimately, blood magic is the tool of weak, evil, and/or crazy mages. It is unnecessary to use blood magic. It's only unique boon is mind controlling others. All else can be done by more experienced mages or by using more lyrium. By resorting to blood magic, one limits themselves because they just seek blood and violence to increase their spells rather than improving one's connection to the Fade or learning more complex forms of magic to achieve the same result. It becomes an easy crutch that does not help improve the schools of magic or the mage as a master of magic.

 

In emergency or desperate situations, a good mage may resort to blood magic, but only because that mage is weak and does not know how to perform a magical feat any other way. The intention may be praised, but the means just shows weakness.

 

^^ I think that is what the codex was getting at.

[Incantrix]

Personally. I think blood magic has only one place in a mages arsenal. War.

Kill one enemy and use his blood to destroy the next couple or so and then siphon their blood for the next assault.

Its kinda like how under normal circumstances a country irl would never use a weapon of mass destruction...but pushed enough would deploy them with ease. Some people will say you're a monster but you did what needed to be done.

So I don't think BM is entirely without purpose. It just needs the right settings.

[Illegitimus]

A typical case of ideology overriding logic - two of those examples make no sense: first, blood magic doesn't always require a death, and second, the quoted example about fighting qunari is a matter of appropriate tactics and doesn't have anything to do with the usefulness of blood magic as such.
 

I've always wondered if blood magic is supposed to be that subtle. Because in the in-game examples it never is, and even in the books it's easily discernible by those who know what to look for. Sure, the thought of someone in power being controlled by an unknown agent in the dark is frightening, but as far as I recall, it's always been obvious at least to the affected, and it should be almost impossible to keep such control up indefinitely and without interruption.

Now if this was true mind-control - control *of* the mind rather than control of your actions by another one's mind - then this would be truly frightening, for then the affected would do things and never know whether the decision originated in their own mind, or was implanted by another. This hits rather close to home in an existential sense:
 

 

True mind control IS possible with Blood Magic.  Uldred was doing it to mages in the circle to get them to accept demons although it seems clear that the more you use it to force people against their actual inclinations, the more obvious it becomes to the people you are doing it to.  Dorian's father was planning to use it to pray Dorian's gay away, and Dorian wasn't sure that was impossible.  Of course the more subtle it is, the less clear that is what is going on.  For example we know Alexius was a blood magician and there are a plethora of people denouncing Fiona's "inexplicable stupidity" in surrendering to him.  Maybe she was just accepting the gift he offered her.