751 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

Hey, it isn't my job to come up with a version of IT that I can stand. If someone had ever come up with an IT implementation that I liked, I wouldn't have a problem with it since I'd, by definition, like it. It's just that so far they've all been awful.

And who ever said the Reapers didn't try? They just didn't succeed.

 

For me, the biggest argument against IT was a bit meta: the idea that Bioware would think that an incomplete ending would be acceptable as ME3's conclusion is even worse than the endings they actually implemented.
 

[DarthSliver]

For me, the biggest argument against IT was a bit meta: the idea that Bioware would think that an incomplete ending would be acceptable as ME3's conclusion is even worse than the endings they actually implemented.
 

 

That was my reason why Bioware wouldn't support it, but I was never against it either. my reason for that was because it was a lot better than the endings we got and don't be a fool and tell me the extended cut fixed it because it didn't. It was like taking a piece of turd and smearing it. 

[Il Divo]

Depends on what you consider "an ending". I thought the EC was only slightly better than the uncut endings. But they still were, definitively, an ending. IT isn't an ending. Most versions of it I hear emhasize that it's Shepard waking up in the rubble after choosing Destroy, which is really him "waking up" after the Crucible run. If that's the end of the ME3 trilogy, that's pretty weak too.

[AlanC9]

ME3, the endings

Your point?

[Cheviot]

IT isn't an ending. Most versions of it I hear emhasize that it's Shepard waking up in the rubble after choosing Destroy, which is really him "waking up" after the Crucible run. If that's the end of the ME3 trilogy, that's pretty weak too.

Actually, it is kind of like an ending; Refusal, to be exact, only without the opportunity to refuse.

[AlanC9]

Depends on what you consider "an ending". I thought the EC was only slightly better than the uncut endings. But they still were, definitively, an ending. IT isn't an ending. Most versions of it I hear emhasize that it's Shepard waking up in the rubble after choosing Destroy, which is really him "waking up" after the Crucible run. If that's the end of the ME3 trilogy, that's pretty weak too.

Well, there is at least one IT variant that gets around this. In Deception Theory Destroy is real, but Control and Synthesis are not. (Not sure how Refuse fits in.) The Catalyst is trying to.... blah blah blah.

Note that The Twilight God, who invented Deception Theory, didn't want it linked with IT, possibly because IT was already widely hated by the time he proposed it. But this board has generally classified the theory as an IT subtype .

[Eryri]

Explanation right here is why IT was invented in the first place. The ridiculous endings of ME3 like Synthesis is why people thought there was indoctrination going on in ME3. The mechanic we only seen used on characters we encounter finally used on us by the Reapers to stop us from Destroying them.

Indeed. Synthesis is the most absurd piece of god awful nonsense I've ever seen in fiction... And I watch Doctor Who. The only way I can process it, and it's revoltingly saccharine epilogue, is as the delusions of an indoctrination addled, dying brain. If Bioware ever present a sequel where Synthesis, as presented, is canon then my response will be "Let's not go back to the Mass Effect universe. It is a silly place."

As to IT being an 'incomplete' ending... For some reason this doesn't bother me in the slightest, no more than the revelation that the Star Wars universe wasn't all rainbows after the Emperor met his end. I was in no hurry for the ME trilogy to end. In fact nothing would make me happier than the revelation that the Crucible failed and the war was lost. And the Andromeda colonists are the last humans in existence, desperately running for their lives from Lovecraftian horrors that they never had a hope of destroying. No matter how 'special' the writers made humanity out to be.

[Eryri]

Hey, it isn't my job to come up with a version of IT that I can stand. If someone had ever come up with an IT implementation that I liked, I wouldn't have a problem with it since I'd, by definition, like it. It's just that so far they've all been awful.
And who ever said the Reapers didn't try? They just didn't succeed.

But it wasn't explicitly shown that they did, and as the saying goes "Show, don't tell". The fact that the Reapers didn't use their signature ability on the person most dangerous to their plans stands out to me as something of a plot hole... Or a Chekov's gun, I'm not sure of the exact terms. Either way, it seems a missed opportunity for some satisfying drama.

[Il Divo]

Well, there is at least one IT variant that gets around this. In Deception Theory Destroy is real, but Control and Synthesis are not. (Not sure how Refuse fits in.) The Catalyst is trying to.... blah blah blah.

Note that The Twilight God, who invented Deception Theory, didn't want it linked with IT, possibly because IT was already widely hated by the time he proposed it. But this board has generally classified the theory as an IT subtype .

 

Good point. I forgot about Twilight God's infamous thread where he unveiled that. ​The problem with a lot of the approaches to these theories were that none were falsifiable by any reasonable standard.

[AlanC9]

But it wasn't explicitly shown that they did, and as the saying goes "Show, don't tell". The fact that the Reapers didn't use their signature ability on the person most dangerous to their plans stands out to me as something of a plot hole... Or a Chekov's gun, I'm not sure of the exact terms. Either way, it seems a missed opportunity for some satisfying drama.

Perhaps. Remember, Bio said they tried the idea, and yanked it when it failed in playtesting. Apparently this happened fairly early, since there's no sign of it in the leaked script.

[AlanC9]

Good point. I forgot about Twilight God's infamous thread where he unveiled that. ​The problem with a lot of the approaches to these theories were that none were falsifiable by any reasonable standard.

Agreed, but that's only a problem if you're concerned with IT being true. If the IT guys had been pushing IT as a fun alternative interpretation rather than as What Really Happened In ME3, the theory wouldn't have ended up as toxic as it did. I believe I warned TTG about that on several occasions,

[Just Here For Popcorns]

I'm fine with leaving the Milky Way, and I would have been fine with them keeping it in the Milky Way. I am fine with or without Shepard. I am excited for a new Mass Effect game!

Same.

Still I'm a bit sad that some of old races won't be back in game, I mean yes I want to see new ones but I really loved and was used to old ones and no matter which old race won't be back I will be sad because each one of them(even less popular ones) were special for something in game, Volus with their "I own you" xD Hanar with their enkindlers and etc.

[Mathias]

I actually think the ending to ME3 would've been awesome as a combination of what we actually got for the ending, and the Indoctrination Theory. 

 

In other words if you played the games poorly you get access to just destroy,  or if you played them very well, then you get access to all three endings. The endings would then play out exactly as they did in the Vanilla. Just different colors, very minor variations. But if you played through the trilogy to your absolute best ability and made the correct variation of choices, you get access to the true ending, which is Shepard breaking free of Harbinger's control, and then proceeds to use the Crucible "correctly". What do I mean by correctly? Well I don't know, I'm not a writer, but it would basically be the ending where you blow the Reapers to kingdom come, no strings attached.

 

The entire trilogy always kind've implied that Shepard would eventually become very vulnerable to Indoctrination, and then in ME3, there are definitely signs of him showing the effects of indoctrination, whether that was intended by the developers or not. Why the writers never pursued this, I'll never understand. The ending of ME3 should've messed with the player's mind. It should've been an effort made by both Shepard and the player, to win a battle of will against Harbinger or The Catalyst, break free from control, and win the day.

 

Or maybe that's too video gamey. But I really think Bioware blew it with this one.

 

[Eryri]

Perhaps. Remember, Bio said they tried the idea, and yanked it when it failed in playtesting. Apparently this happened fairly early, since there's no sign of it in the leaked script.

Quite possibly. It's a real shame if that's the case. I continue to wonder what ME3 might have been with 6 to 12 months more development time to make it work. C'est la vie.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Whatever.

 

The decision's been made. The ME series is for the moment done with the Milky Way galaxy. Complaining about it isn't going to change the situation. So why bother? If you feel like this change of location has destroyed the ME series for you than don't buy Andromeda.

 

Simple as that.  

[Han Shot First]

Quite possibly. It's a real shame if that's the case. I continue to wonder what ME3 might have been with 6 to 12 months more development time to make it work. C'est la vie.

 

We'd have still ended up with the same ending, which was really the source of about 90% of all the complaints about Mass Effect 3. Leaked early drafts of the script also contained the Catalyst and the same choices and consequences that we saw in the released product. Some of the complaints fans raised about other aspects of the game were also sparked by the ending controversy, because it prompted disgruntled fans to go over the game with a finer toothed comb than they did with the previous two titles. You can see that with people bashing ME3 for flaws that were present in the other two titles, which those same fans praise.

[themikefest]

We'd have still ended up with the same ending, which was really the source of about 90% of all the complaints about Mass Effect 3.

Maybe, but that time has come and gone. I'm sure Priority Earth mission would be better than what it is. Also the Citadel coup would've happened after Thessia according to this.  Maybe ME2 squadmates would've had more than a cameo. Anything would be possible had the game been given more time.

[Iakus]

For me, the biggest argument against IT was a bit meta: the idea that Bioware would think that an incomplete ending would be acceptable as ME3's conclusion is even worse than the endings they actually implemented.
 

Just to play devil's advocate:  They did think the endings we were given were acceptable.  So it's not like their thinking an incomplete ending like IT is much of a stretch 

[Iakus]

Perhaps. Remember, Bio said they tried the idea, and yanked it when it failed in playtesting. Apparently this happened fairly early, since there's no sign of it in the leaked script.

There actually was some of that in the leaked scripts (the really early versions).  Shepard would be fighting for control of him/herself during the TIM confrontation.  It's believed that some of the weird sounds and graphics during that scene are artifacts of that.

[AlanC9]

Right. I've got a copy of that old Russian leak -- I think I got it from Arcian. Here's the relevant part for the rest of you folks.
 

CUTSCENE/CINE DESIGN:
Shepard leaps into the Conduit at the end of the Earth sequence.
Shepard slowly wakes up. He is badly injured and alone. Suddenly his radio starts to go off.
Shepard and Anderson reach the end of the tunnel in to a larger central chamber. They realize this is essentially a rendering facility. Human goo pours from their tunnel, and dozens (hundreds?) like it, into a vast holding tank under the grated floor.
As they enter the control room they can see the controls for the Citadel Arms, but before they can reach them both Shepard and Anderson begin to feel the effects similiar to those Shepard felt at MIRANDA'S MISSION. Before they can realize what's happening, Anderson and Shepard find themselves with their guns drawn and aimed at one another.
CUTSCENE:
The platform Shepard was on begins to rise up into GUARDIAN's garden where he is faced with his final decision.
(snip)
CONVERSATION:
Once Shepard reaches the top of the elevator he begins a conversation with GUARDIAN where all the mysteries of the universe are revealed.

 
Note the bolded is a little different from what we got. It's not really clear what happened in the early version of Horizon from the document I have.
 
As long as we're talking about what would have happened with more resources, there's this:
 

Designer Cutscene:
Shepard comes to.
A handful of survivors from hammer, including Anderson and the henchmen, have gotten bogged down just a few dozen meters from the conduit and have dug in, but are dying quickly.
Suddenly, the Normandy streaks overhead, evading fire from the Reaper and blowing a hole in the Reaper enemies' lines.
Anderson shouts for Shepard to make a run for it, and orders the rest of Hammer to cover him.
Cutscene:
Shepard and Anderson approach the conduit's beam. Shepard gets in, but Anderson is grabbed by a husk. Shepard turns to help, but before he can do anything, the beam activates, whisking Shepard away to the Citadel. On the other side, Shepard tears the metal from his leg and casts it aside, and then injects himself with Medigel.
Cutscene:
Shepard comes to. Anderson is dragging him forward. A jagged, bloody piece of metal is sticking out of his thigh. The conduit anchor retracts, stranding the henchmen. Shepard tries to walk, but his leg buckles. Anderson hands Shepard his pistol, and lifts Shepard's arm around his neck, supporting his leg. The two begin to shuffle towards the conduit beam.
Designer Cutscene: Shepard limps to the conduit, and takes one final look around for other survivors. Seeing none, he enters the beam and is transported to the citadel.

I presume the three different versions of the scene are for different EMS states. Note that it's not clear in any version what happened to the henchmen. (That's the internal Bio term for squadmates since at least NWN.)

[themikefest]

With all the different scenarios of what might've happened from leak scripts and whatever other sources, Bioware could just remake ME3. Of course my personal favorite is to remake the whole trilogy. Excellent

[Iakus]

With all the different scenarios of what might've happened from leak scripts and whatever other sources, Bioware could just remake ME3. Of course my personal favorite is to remake the whole trilogy. Excellent

Nah, they'd end up putting Ash in a bikini or something.

[Ahglock]

Nah, they'd end up putting Ash in a bikini or something.

No a towel. "I was taking a shower when the geth invaded. I put this on when I went to look to see what was happening"

That's great. But why do you shower in your underwear and since we've been off Eden prime for a couple weeks now why haven't you put on any armor yet?

[SlottsMachine]

I took an Absence of more than a Month, but this is still being whined about. Wow.

 

Why did you expect things to change in only a month? People gotta drone on about something until more news comes out. 

[LinksOcarina]

Just to play devil's advocate:  They did think the endings we were given were acceptable.  So it's not like their thinking an incomplete ending like IT is much of a stretch 

 

Two things to this.

 

1) Who said the ending was incomplete?

 

2) The problem with IT is it has been debunked by BioWare already, so why is it still a thing? It is nothing more than Squall is dead or Lavender Town Syndrome at this point.