143 réponses à ce sujet

[Killroy]

The N7 Rank and therefore the Alliance Military still exists. Krogan and asari have been confirmed. 

 

Just because someone in the game has the N7 markings doesn't mean the Alliance is there. 

[AlanC9]

I suppose it's possible that something that isn't the Alliance would adopt the Alliance proficiency structure, but why wouldn't Bio just be lazy here?

[Former_Fiend]

Just because someone in the game has the N7 markings doesn't mean the Alliance is there. 

 

Ok, it existed at some point.

[Killroy]

 

Ok, it existed at some point.

 

That's still jumping to a conclusion if you mean it existed in the Andromeda galaxy. The expedition to the Andromeda galaxy could be a private endeavor that happens to have a few N7 operatives/former N7 operatives.

[Former_Fiend]

That's still jumping to a conclusion if you mean it existed in the Andromeda galaxy. The expedition to the Andromeda galaxy could be a private endeavor that happens to have a few N7 operatives/former N7 operatives.

 

 

I did not say they exist in the Andromeda Galaxy. They existed in the same universe.

[7twozero]

The connection is that both games have the same terrible terrible fans.

[Iakus]

Well, eventually Bio will do some big info dump and we can argue about that instead, mostly.

YOu know, a big infodump might, just might, shut me up.  There's a nonzero chance that could happen

[Iakus]

These discharge systems could be cost-prohibitive for vessels

So what's changed?  Remember, we're not just doubliong the effectivethe range of a ship, or even an order of  magnitude.  We're talking changing the running time of a drive core  from hours to centuries.

 

 

 

They could be too large for vessels. .

Thus they couldn't have them

 

 

 

They could be seen as unnecessary because of how easy it is to discharge in the conventional way, with quick access to relays to get them where they need to be.
 

And massively extending the effective range of warships or colony vessels is a waste of time?  Garden worlds are a precious commodity in the galactic community.  

 

You think the quarians intheir search for a homeworld wouldn't find that an important thing to look into?  

 

 

There's no reason to assume it would be impossible for an Ark of some kind to be able to take advantage of this technology. Hell, the Ark could be a Black Ark that already has this technology built in. 

 

You mean besides the fact that such a ship would make the most advanced starships in the galaxy look like log rafts?    YEah, no reason at all

 

 

You just want something to complain about

Just the opposite.  I want something to believe in.  I don't believe in this.

[Killroy]

So what's changed?  Remember, we're not just doubliong the effectivethe range of a ship, or even an order of  magnitude.  We're talking changing the running time of a drive core  from hours to centuries.

What's changed? How about the fate of sentient life? You don't think the Reaper invasion would be inspiration enough to dump a load of cash into an escape plan? You actually think budgets would win out over survival?
 

Thus they couldn't have them

We're talking about an ark, not a cruiser or warship. An ark ship could easily be the size a space station.
 

And massively extending the effective range of warships or colony vessels is a waste of time?  Garden worlds are a precious commodity in the galactic community.

Yes, it would be a waste of time if you're leaving the effective range of relays. How do you supply warships and colonies if they're so far away they have to rely on this discharge tech? An ark bound for the Andromeda galaxy doesn't have this issue.
 

You think the quarians intheir search for a homeworld wouldn't find that an important thing to look into?

The Quarians still need ready access to relays and they have a fleet of small- to medium-sized ships, not a single ark carrying multiple civilizations.
 

You mean besides the fact that such a ship would make the most advanced starships in the galaxy look like log rafts?    YEah, no reason at all

What about Black Arks? What about a massive Ark ship that can accommodate the tech? You haven't made a compelling case at all. You're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary.
 

Just the opposite.  I want something to believe in.  I don't believe in this.

First of all, stop being so melodramatic. Second, if you were looking for "something to believe in" you wouldn't have drawn this silly line in the sand and refused to step over it, despite the line being blown away by a hurricane. This issue of discharging is nothing. It's not lore-shattering. It's not game-breaking. It's nitpicking to find a reason to oppose the game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You mean besides the fact that such a ship would make the most advanced starships in the galaxy look like log rafts?    YEah, no reason at all

Well Killroy did specifically mention a Black Ark, which is a canon ship that has solved all the problems involved with an intergalactic sojourn.

[KaiserShep]

We're talking changing the running time of a drive core  from hours to centuries.

 

You know, considering how ridiculously long technology seems to last in the MEU, this isn't really that unreasonable. A data drive lasting even several decades can be kind of pushing it, yet in Mass Effect, a telepathic flash drive can last for tens of thousands of years. Besides, we already have the reapers, which have been around since Jehovah was a snotty teenager, and they can zip around the galaxy like a frantic cat in the living room from the point when the first fish decided it had enough of the ocean til the dinosaurs decided they wanted to be fed popcorn by old people in the park. 

[pdusen]

You keep putting words in people mouths, change is not the problem its Bioware's decision to throw throwing the baby out with the bathwater that people are having problems with.

 

 

I wonder, if people keep calling you out enough, will your posts eventually degenerate to just repeatedly saying "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"?

[Iakus]

What's changed? How about the fate of sentient life? You don't think the Reaper invasion would be inspiration enough to dump a load of cash into an escape plan? You actually think budgets would win out over survival?
 

They they're already breaking the piggy bank on this other thing called "Project Crucible".  We've been over this.  How many "spare no expense" superscience projects are we allowed before we reach saturation?

 

 

 

 

 

We're talking about an ark, not a cruiser or warship. An ark ship could easily be the size a space station.

 

It takes several years in peacetime to build a single dreadnought.  Just how are they going to build a Death Star while fighting (and losing) a galactic war for survival?

 

 

 

Yes, it would be a waste of time if you're leaving the effective range of relays. How do you supply warships and colonies if they're so far away they have to rely on this discharge tech? 

I dunno.  How do you supply warships and colonies if they are so far away you have to rely on relay tech?

 

 

 

 
The Quarians still need ready access to relays and they have a fleet of small- to medium-sized ships, not a single ark carrying multiple civilizations.
 

Quarians needed a homeworld.  They're already galactic pariahs and it would matter a whole lot less if it took them a week to get to a relay rather than a day or two.

 

 

 

What about Black Arks? What about a massive Ark ship that can accommodate the tech? You haven't made a compelling case at all. You're just being contrary for the sake of being contrary.
 

Again, how the hell would they build something that massive during a WAR?  And in less than a year?  heck, how are they going to build something that huge and that advanced in five years?  You have made no compelling case for that at all. Stop being contrary.

 

 

First of all, stop being so melodramatic. Second, if you were looking for "something to believe in" you wouldn't have drawn this silly line in the sand and refused to step over it, despite the line being blown away by a hurricane. This issue of discharging is nothing. It's not lore-shattering. It's not game-breaking. It's nitpicking to find a reason to oppose the game.

 

Hey, I'm not the one calling people crybabies.  I'm the civil one here  .   And secondly, I my "line in the sand" is based on Mass Effect's own lore.  And lore is, to me, a bog part of what makes things interesting in a story.  What's possible, and what's impossible.  Overcoming limitations as a focus of the story rather than circumventing them via handwaves.  If they insist on "blowing  away" this limitation rather than addressing it in a logical, thoughtful manner, then that's just plain poor writing.  If you want to just "go with it" hey, that's fine for you.  I wish I could do that.  But I can't.  I have little desire to see the Mass Effect setting turn into the Jetsons.

[Ahglock]

They they're already breaking the piggy bank on this other thing called "Project Crucible".  We've been over this.  How many "spare no expense" superscience projects are we allowed before we reach saturation?

 

 

 

It takes several years in peacetime to build a single dreadnought.  Just how are they going to build a Death Star while fighting (and losing) a galactic war for survival?

 

 

As many as the plot demands.  And this is pretty damn low on the super science scale in a universe where they have FTL.

 

Or more seriously easily a dozen more.  Money isn't an object at all, the resources exist across the galaxy and all they need is manpower.  The crucible is big, the fight another big people resource but I somehow doubt they can't pull together a million people who are qualified to work on this project out of the what trillion or so in the galaxy.  And yeah a dreadnaught takes years, a dreadnaught when that's the focus of a army of people would be weeks.

[N7Jamaican]

Whether we like it or not, Mass Effect Andromeda is connected to Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3 the same way Star Trek: Voyager is connected to Star Trek.  Just because some of us are upset there's no Shepard, or Milky Way, does not mean this is not a Mass Effect game.  However, too early to argue now, we have little information about this game.  When BioWare dumps some info on N7 Day, we all can resume this debate.

[Iakus]

As many as the plot demands.  And this is pretty damn low on the super science scale in a universe where they have FTL.

 

Or more seriously easily a dozen more.  Money isn't an object at all, the resources exist across the galaxy and all they need is manpower.  The crucible is big, the fight another big people resource but I somehow doubt they can't pull together a million people who are qualified to work on this project out of the what trillion or so in the galaxy.  And yeah a dreadnaught takes years, a dreadnaught when that's the focus of a army of people would be weeks.

 

"As many as the plot demands" is just a handwave.  "Resources" And goes to the very heart of "what makes this a Mass Effect game?"

 

And manpower and resources are very much an issue.  The genocidal war is going to suck up people and resources.  The Crucible Project will suck up people and resources.  The Reapers are killing people by the planet  and disrupting supply lines by taking over systems cutting off, you guessed it, people and resources.  Plus Cerberus is leading refugees into deathtraps, indoctrinating and experimenting on them.  

 

The galaxy is disorganized (remember how in the start all the Council races were simply looking out for themselves?) and they have at most a few months to make quantum leaps in eezo core technology.  You can't simply throw money and random people at it and go "Find a way"  Well, you can but that's writing at it's cr*ppiest.  You have to throw people at it who can, with an invasion of AI-Cthulhu breathing down their necks, do the RL equivalent of build a car engine that will run constantly for five centuries on a single tank of gas.

 

In a few months

 

 

Whether we like it or not, Mass Effect Andromeda is connected to Mass Effect 1, 2, and 3 the same way Star Trek: Voyager is connected to Star Trek.  Just because some of us are upset there's no Shepard, or Milky Way, does not mean this is not a Mass Effect game.  However, too early to argue now, we have little information about this game.  When BioWare dumps some info on N7 Day, we all can resume this debate.

 

Sure we have little information.  But we can see the pattern forming with the Lazarus Project and the Crucible.  Odds are this will be just another arsepull.

 

At least Voyager stayed in this galaxy.

[Killroy]

They they're already breaking the piggy bank on this other thing called "Project Crucible".  We've been over this.  How many "spare no expense" superscience projects are we allowed before we reach saturation?

How did Cerberus manage to do what they did during the war? They created tech to turn millions of people into semi-husks and assembled the largest force in the galaxy. No one else int he entire galaxy is capable of extraordinary things?
 

It takes several years in peacetime to build a single dreadnought.  Just how are they going to build a Death Star while fighting (and losing) a galactic war for survival?

There were several years between Sovereign attacking the Citadel and the Reapers arriving en masse. We already know that some people recognized the threat they posed as soon as Sovereign attacked.
 

I dunno.  How do you supply warships and colonies if they are so far away you have to rely on relay tech?

...by using relays? WTF? Are you trolling?
 

Quarians needed a homeworld.  They're already galactic pariahs and it would matter a whole lot less if it took them a week to get to a relay rather than a day or two.

That's the difference not needing to discharge makes? A few days? You're GRASPING.
 

Again, how the hell would they build something that massive during a WAR?  And in less than a year?  heck, how are they going to build something that huge and that advanced in five years?  You have made no compelling case for that at all. Stop being contrary.

 
...again, are you trolling? Why would they need to build a black ark when they already exist? Someone could have just gone through the Omega-4 relay and recovered one after Shepard took out the Collectors' base and killed all the Collectors in the galactic core.
 

Hey, I'm not the one calling people crybabies.  I'm the civil one here  .

You're the illogical one, clinging to BS to have something to complain about.
 

And secondly, I my "line in the sand" is based on Mass Effect's own lore.  And lore is, to me, a bog part of what makes things interesting in a story.  What's possible, and what's impossible.  Overcoming limitations as a focus of the story rather than circumventing them via handwaves.

The lore doesn't back you up. The technology to travel very long distances without discharging the traditional way exists in the lore. That you refuse to accept it doesn't make it untrue.
 

If they insist on "blowing  away" this limitation rather than addressing it in a logical, thoughtful manner, then that's just plain poor writing.  If you want to just "go with it" hey, that's fine for you.  I wish I could do that.  But I can't.  I have little desire to see the Mass Effect setting turn into the Jetsons.

You don't have a leg to stand on. Your argument fell apart, you just won't admit it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 ...again, are you trolling? Why would they need to build a black ark when they already exist? Someone could have just gone through the Omega-4 relay and recovered one after Shepard took out the Collectors' base and killed all the Collectors in the galactic core.

We don't even need to do that. During the Reaper War the Reapers call in Black Arks that were outside the galaxy to serve as reinforcements. The Reapers bring the Black Arks to us. Since we have an antidote to their paralyzing agent, it's just a matter of taking a ship. 

[Killroy]

We don't even need to do that. During the Reaper War the Reapers call in Black Arks that were outside the galaxy to serve as reinforcements. The Reapers bring the Black Arks to us. Since we have an antidote to their paralyzing agent, it's just a matter of taking a ship.

Multiple methods to obtain a hyper-advanced Ark ship that doesn't require any lore bending or hand waving whatsoever. But still none of these tireless Keepers of the Lore will relent in their complaints about an as yet unknown plot device.

[Iakus]

How did Cerberus manage to do what they did during the war? They created tech to turn millions of people into semi-husks and assembled the largest force in the galaxy. No one else int he entire galaxy is capable of extraordinary things?
 

You realize the whole Cerberus storyline in ME3 was mercilessly mocked, right?  How they must have gotten Revan to loan them the Star Forge because that's the only way it makes sense that they got all this equipment and all these ships (none of them anywhere near dreadnought size, I might add)?

 

Now we expect the Council to go this route?  

 

 

 

There were several years between Sovereign attacking the Citadel and the Reapers arriving en masse. We already know that some people recognized the threat they posed as soon as Sovereign attacked.

 

And the Council didn't do sh*t to prepare for them.  And when the Reapers did arrive, they refused to help each other out until Shepard forced the issue.  Sure a few groups believed Shep, like Kirahe, Jondum Bau, and such.  But the only large organized group that knew the Reapers were coming was the geth, and they were too busy getting their metallic butts kicked by the quarians and cutting a deal with the Reapers to, you know do anything about it.

 

So, who would be building this Ark again?

 

 

 

...by using relays? WTF? Are you trolling?

 

No, just pointing out that when you need a technology to get somewhere, you rely on that technology.  What difference does it make if it's a relay or a portable discharging station?

 

 

 

That's the difference not needing to discharge makes? A few days? You're GRASPING.

 

If you can add two more day to the running time these ships can go without discharge, you have effectively doubled the range of the ships.  That by itself is HUGE.  It would revolutionize colonization efforts, It would massively increase the volume of accessible space.  

 

Getting to another galaxy will need engines that go centuries without discharging.  When current ships cant go more than two or three days without killing the crew.  

 

So who's grasping again?

 

 

 

...again, are you trolling? Why would they need to build a black ark when they already exist? Someone could have just gone through the Omega-4 relay and recovered one after Shepard took out the Collectors' base and killed all the Collectors in the galactic core.
 

You mean after Shepard blew up the base?  

 

ANd I'm thinking you're referring to those Collector cruisers which I'm sure absolutely wouldn't indoctrinate anyone 

 

 

 

You're the illogical one, clinging to BS to have something to complain about.
 

I have backed up everything I have said with in-game data or logical extensions of it.

 

 

 

The lore doesn't back you up. The technology to travel very long distances without discharging the traditional way exists in the lore. That you refuse to accept it doesn't make it untrue.
You don't have a leg to stand on. Your argument fell apart, you just won't admit it.

 

The Reapers are the only ones who have demonstrated such an ability.  Even then, they have demonstrated the ability to go for years, not centuries.  Still many orders of magnitude beyond what the Council is capable of true, but still not enough to reach Andromeda.  

 

And assuming they can go that long, it still begs the question of why haven't they gone there?  Or are you expecting the Ark to be met by another brood of Reapers?

[Killroy]

You realize the whole Cerberus storyline in ME3 was mercilessly mocked, right?  How they must have gotten Revan to loan them the Star Forge because that's the only way it makes sense that they got all this equipment and all these ships (none of them anywhere near dreadnought size, I might add)?

Oh, so you don't actually care about the lore. You just want them to make the game the way you want it to be made. Gotcha.
 

Now we expect the Council to go this route?  
And the Council didn't do sh*t to prepare for them.  And when the Reapers did arrive, they refused to help each other out until Shepard forced the issue.  Sure a few groups believed Shep, like Kirahe, Jondum Bau, and such.  But the only large organized group that knew the Reapers were coming was the geth, and they were too busy getting their metallic butts kicked by the quarians and cutting a deal with the Reapers to, you know do anything about it.
So, who would be building this Ark again?

Where did I say anything about the Council? And you're demonstrably wrong. Multiple large, organized groups knew about the Reapers. You keep trying to make us forget about Cerberus and what they managed to do. I understand that you want us to ignore Cerberus because they punch a galaxy-sized hole in your argument, but this is a discussion forum, not your blog.
 

No, just pointing out that when you need a technology to get somewhere, you rely on that technology.  What difference does it make if it's a relay or a portable discharging station?

Hmmm, let's see. Instantaneous travel across the galaxy, or long journeys through a dangerous galaxy. How are these things the same?
 

If you can add two more day to the running time these ships can go without discharge, you have effectively doubled the range of the ships.  That by itself is HUGE.  It would revolutionize colonization efforts, It would massively increase the volume of accessible space.  
Getting to another galaxy will need engines that go centuries without discharging.  When current ships cant go more than two or three days without killing the crew.  
So who's grasping again?

You are. Because the tech already exists.
 

You mean after Shepard blew up the base?  

It's a good thing I'm talking about the Collector ships and not the Collector base.
 

ANd I'm thinking you're referring to those Collector cruisers which I'm sure absolutely wouldn't indoctrinate anyone 

We know they don't. Not only is there no logical reason for them to indoctrinate anyone since everyone on board is either a minion or a hostage awaiting the goo treatment, our crew was on board a Black Ark and the Collector base for an extended period without being indoctrinated.
 

I have backed up everything I have said with in-game data or logical extensions of it.

No you haven't. You've handwaved Cerberus and everything else that counters your argument.
 

The Reapers are the only ones who have demonstrated such an ability.  Even then, they have demonstrated the ability to go for years, not centuries.  Still many orders of magnitude beyond what the Council is capable of true, but still not enough to reach Andromeda.

Show me in the lore when it's stated the Reapers can only go a few years without discharging.
 

And assuming they can go that long, it still begs the question of why haven't they gone there?  Or are you expecting the Ark to be met by another brood of Reapers?

This is entirely irrelevant. You're trying to distract from the issue by bring up other, unrelated crap.

[AlanC9]

If you can add two more day to the running time these ships can go without discharge, you have effectively doubled the range of the ships.  That by itself is HUGE.  It would revolutionize colonization efforts, It would massively increase the volume of accessible space.

That depends on it being cost-effective. There's no absolute range limit (barring possibly consumables) since fuel is scoopable and most systems have possible discharge points.

[Iakus]

Oh, so you don't actually care about the lore. You just want them to make the game the way you want it to be made. Gotcha.
 

I want a consistent game that follows its own rules, yeah.  I guess this makes me a whiner.  Or is it a crybaby? I can't keep all your name-calling straight sometimes.

 

 

 

 

Where did I say anything about the Council? And you're demonstrably wrong. Multiple large, organized groups knew about the Reapers. You keep trying to make us forget about Cerberus and what they managed to do. I understand that you want us to ignore Cerberus because they punch a galaxy-sized hole in your argument, but this is a discussion forum, not your blog.

THe council is one of the largest political bodies in the explored galaxy.  What other "large organized groups" new about the Reapers?  I mentioned the geth and their difficulties.  You mentioned Cerberus, which, granted is significant, especially once TIM got the Star Forge up and running in ME3.

 

But who else?  

 

 

 

Hmmm, let's see. Instantaneous travel across the galaxy, or long journeys through a dangerous galaxy. How are these things the same?
 

They're both journeys over long distances?

 

Relays take you to a lot of places, but they don't take you everywhere.  You're not even allowed to open up a relay unless you know in advance where its going.

 

 

 

You are. Because the tech already exists.
 

Now who's making assumptions?

 

 

 

It's a good thing I'm talking about the Collector ships and not the Collector base.
 

You mean the Collector ship that was destroyed at the Collector base?  Or are we just making up new ones?

 

 

 

We know they don't. Not only is there no logical reason for them to indoctrinate anyone since everyone on board is either a minion or a hostage awaiting the goo treatment, our crew was on board a Black Ark and the Collector base for an extended period without being indoctrinated.
 

Umm, you realize where TIM got his indoctrination technology from, right?

 

 

 

No you haven't. You've handwaved Cerberus and everything else that counters your argument.
 

I pointed out how they were portrayed inconsistently.  It has long ago become a joke that Cerberus is shoehorned into being whatever kind of organization Bioware needs them to be in a given story.  Form mad scientists to benevolent secret society to Imperial stormtroopers to space Iluminati.  THis is part of Mass Effects problem, treating their own lore like silly putty.

 

 

 

Show me in the lore when it's stated the Reapers can only go a few years without discharging.
 

SHow me in the lore where it states Reapers can reach Andromeda.

 

 

This is entirely irrelevant. You're trying to distract from the issue by bring up other, unrelated crap.

It's actually part of the question.  If we can get there, why not the Reapers.  It's a hole Bioware dug for themselves.

[Iakus]

That depends on it being cost-effective. There's no absolute range limit (barring possibly consumables) since fuel is scoopable and most systems have possible discharge points.

THis is true.  And part of why making the leap from two days to five centuries or more is pretty ridiculous without there being a lot of intermediate steps.

 

First extend it by a day, let it become cheaper, more cost-efficient.  Refine the technology to add another day.  Then another.  After a while you're up to a week without discharging.  Maybe a breakthrough will double that.  And so on and so forth.  Adding more time between discharges.

 

We're talking a process of decades. Even centuries.  Perhaps more.

 

I'm not saying this is technology that simply can't happen in the Mass Effect universe.  I'm saying that making such a huge breakthrough with the technology level of the Mass Effect setting and the events of ME3 going on, it's pretty laughable.  A transparent attempt to distance themselves from ME3 without really distancing themselves.  See my analogy of getting a car to run constantly for five centuries on a single tank of gas.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Multiple methods to obtain a hyper-advanced Ark ship that doesn't require any lore bending or hand waving whatsoever. But still none of these tireless Keepers of the Lore will relent in their complaints about an as yet unknown plot device.

Yeah, while I admit I am one of those people who doesn't want the lore thrown away, ways to get to Andromeda without doing so have been pointed out so if Bioware uses them like the Black Ark Theory, I'm fully in support of it. 

 

We know they don't. Not only is there no logical reason for them to indoctrinate anyone since everyone on board is either a minion or a hostage awaiting the goo treatment, our crew was on board a Black Ark and the Collector base for an extended period without being indoctrinated.

Pretty much.

 

You mean the Collector ship that was destroyed at the Collector base?  Or are we just making up new ones?

 

Umm, you realize where TIM got his indoctrination technology from, right?

Mass Effect canon establishes that there was more than one Collector Cruiser. One attacks Fehl Prime in Mass Effect: Paragon Lost. And during the Reaper War more Collector Cruisers, dubbed Black Arks by our cycle, were called in from outside the galaxy to serve as reinforcements for the Reapers.

 

TIM already had indoctrination technology from decades before Mass Effect 2. If you want to use game-only evidence, he had the remains of the Human Proto-Reaper. Plus in the Leviathan DLC it is established we have developed a sort of anti-indoctrination shielding.