143 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahglock]

 

1)Then why do I get so much static whenever I mention (including using direct quotes and video from the game) that barring physical incapability, the Reapers should have visited Andromeda long ago, if such ship engines are possible?  I smell hypocrisy on some people here.  Especially since I do not deny that intergalactic travel is possible.  Only that the time frame we are working with here makes it's development at this point rather ludicrous.

 

2) Cruisers are big ships.  Hundreds of meters long.  And something like the Collector cruiser will feels especially big, since it's mostly storage space.  No need for supplies, life support, crew quarters, etc.  So the fact that it feels big and open is no surprise.  

 

However, cruisers are smaller than dreadnoughts (though not always by much, given that chart).  That is a constant.  Sovereign was twice the size of most dreadnoughts.  And the Collector Cruiser is nearly as large as Sovereign.  So why is it explicitly declared a "cruiser"?

 

1.  You are seriously asking why a totally irrational machine race that consistently does some of the dumbest crap ever written didn't do the rational thing and check out other galaxies?  Seriously the only answer I have to give is, because!  Again its about if its possible in the lore, not whether you think its the best written story EVAR!!! Or hell maybe they did, and frequently did.  Maybe they travel in one giant pack and hit galaxies in rotation and Andormeda has been tooting along for 45,000 years without a reaper invasion they were coming up for there next reaper invasion soon. Hey, I guess we saved them as well.

 

2)  You are stuck on the name meaning one thing, size.  ME has clearly shown they don't use the same naming conventions we do in our militaries. Maybe cruiser just means less than 3 guns with at least one gun with at least a 10 kiloton payload.  It could be the size of a planet and still be called a cruiser then.  And while yes they called it that as soon as they saw it, who freaking cares.  Its bad dialogue, its a guess as they didn't see it bristling with guns, there scan indicated its armor and weapon payload enough to guess cruiser.

[Il Divo]

SUre it is, which is one reason why I want to get as far away from the trilogy and its inconsistencies as possible.

 

How how does excabrating those inconsistencies helpful?  Cerberus had some kind of Star Forge thing going giving them infinite resources?  Okay, whatever.  But unless they introduce said Star Forge in a lore-friendly way (no I am not willing to accept TIM was a Sith Lord) how does that make building a ginormous Ark Ship feasible for everyone/anyone not-Cerberus?  They most definitely did not have infinite resources.

 

If that's the problem, what's stopping us from simply looking at this as a completely independent installment/reboot and ignoring the past lore inconsistencies? If your answer is going to be "retcon a new ending" for ME4 to ignore the lore we dislike, the path of least resistance (in this case) would be to treat ME:A as a reboot.

 

​On the other hand, you have also emphasized the "We don't have enough resources for a Crucible and an Ark" when that's not supported by any aspect​ of the narrative. Like any other story element, without concrete numbers, the resources are whatever Bioware wants them to be. If terrorist organizations have those kinds of resources, I'm going to take a shot here and say galactic governments should be somewhere in the same ball park, especially if pooling their resources.
 

[Monica21]

Well, that's kinda what's going on here. Bending the lore to remove conflict. IN this case, conflict with the endings.

Except we don't know anything, do we? We don't know how anyone is getting to Andromeda or even why. This entire forum is just a mass of speculation, so to say that the devs have already decided that it's breaking lore is a bit ridiculous.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

1) The canonicity (is that a word?) of MP has been in doubt since Day 1.  You can have Cerberus troops fighting on Earth.  You can have groups fighting whom Shepard has never recruited, or have even been wiped out.  Look back at the history of the forums and yes you will see debate about this.

So, like I said, if Bioware finally, definitively comes down and says that MP is canon, then I guess I will have to accept it.  But they will really be grasping at straws to ad validity to this mess.

They've said it is canon, and even had it talked about in Mass Effect 3: Citadel. 

 

2) The only dialogue I recall (though I admit it has been quite some time since I have played) is the whole "Vanguard of our destruction, eh?  How's that working out for you?" line

13:37-13:54 they talk about the Sovereign shard and how it is shielded. 

 

3) The Collector Cruiser is called a cruiser quite literally from the moment it first appears.  Before it's capabilities are even shown.  There was no comparison between it and other Collector ships so there's no way of knowing if it was a "middleweight" ship or not.  The logical assumption is that it was compared based on known ship classifications.  Namely that of the Systems Alliance and the Council races.  That the Collector ship was of similar size and tonnage.

 

If it rivals Sovereign in size (which was called a dreadnought despite it's purpose and capabilities being largely unknown) then why isn't it a dreadnought too?

Again, "Cruiser-weight starships are the standard combat unit encountered away from large naval bases, the "poor bloody infantry" of most fleets.". The Black Arks are the standard combat unit encountered away from large navel bases, whereas Dreadnoughts are "only deployed on the most vital missions". Thus the Black Ark fit the parameters of a Cruiser, not a Dreadnought.

I agree that saying it looks like a cruiser at the beginning is weird, but it is probably a slip up since Joker immediately says otherwise with "it doesn't match any known signatures". How can they classify something they have yet to encounter? 

The Normandy-SR2 is about half the size of a Council Cruiser, and yet is dwarfed by the Black Ark. When sitting right next to it, the Normandy is only about a tenth as long. When on Horizon, it stands just as high in the Horizon as Sovereign did on Eden Prime. In Mass Effect: Paragon Lost, it is almost the size of the colony on Fehl Prime, which is a pretty large colony. They are not the size of a Cruiser. 

 

4) Fine, I will stipulate that, despite them always being referred to as "Collectors" in the past, the "husks" on Palaven could have included Collectors.  Happy?

Yes, I am. It's what they meant, since otherwise during the Battle of Palaven there wasn't a single Marauder or Brute involved, despite being on the Turian homeworld and fighting both Turians and Krogan, the races used to make those types of husks. 

[AlanC9]

Why is that assumption okay, though? And not other logical extrapolations?

It's not that your logical extrapolations aren't okay. They could be true if the things in the universe that you don't know about turn out in a certain way. But your extrapolations are going to turn out to be untrue, because the things that you don't know will turn out to be what Bio needs them to be, and we all know it.

Well, yeah, a ship that's several hundred meters long is going to look big. But it didn't seem dreadnought-big, let alone Sovereign-big.

So yeah, if they're rewriting history so that a ship the size of Soveriegn is detected as a"cruiser" I'm gonna b*tch about it.

There's no rewrite. The Collector Cruiser was always far larger than organic-race cruisers. About dreadnought length, but with a substantially larger internal volume. (Of course, we have no data on what percentage of that space is vital machinery, but that's one of those facts that will break whatever way Bio needs it to break.) The models have been extracted and compared; your impression was just wrong, probably because you heard "cruiser" and assumed a size.

[Iakus]

They've said it is canon, and even had it talked about in Mass Effect 3: Citadel. 

 

Could you supply a quote, please?  Like I said, there was a lot of back and forth on this in the past.

 

 

 

 

13:37-13:54 they talk about the Sovereign shard and how it is shielded.

 

Thank you, that is illuminating.  THough I would say that comment on "regular psych evals indicates it might not be foolproof.  Still I do stand corrected.

 

 

 

Again, "Cruiser-weight starships are the standard combat unit encountered away from large naval bases, the "poor bloody infantry" of most fleets.". The Black Arks are the standard combat unit encountered away from large navel bases, whereas Dreadnoughts are "only deployed on the most vital missions". Thus the Black Ark fit the parameters of a Cruiser, not a Dreadnought.
 

Again, we don't know that, because we only ever see the one ship.  How do we know it's a "standard combat unit?"  FOr that matter, why does that make SOvereigns "dreadnoughts" given how often they are deplayed in the war?

 

 

 

I agree that saying it looks like a cruiser at the beginning is weird, but it is probably a slip up since Joker immediately says otherwise with "it doesn't match any known signatures". How can they classify something they have yet to encounter?
 

It's not human, asari, turian, etc.  That's what I believe he meant by not matching a known signature.  It's a cruiser, but whose cruiser, and what kind?

 

 

 

The Normandy-SR2 is about half the size of a Council Cruiser, and yet is dwarfed by the Black Ark. When sitting right next to it, the Normandy is only about a tenth as long. When on Horizon, it stands just as high in the Horizon as Sovereign did on Eden Prime. In Mass Effect: Paragon Lost, it is almost the size of the colony on Fehl Prime, which is a pretty large colony. They are not the size of a Cruiser.
 

And the Destiny Ascension is apparently bigger than SOvereign and Harbinger combined, which are already twice the size of a standard dreadnought.  Like I said, these sizes are really screwed up.

[Iakus]

It's not that your logical extrapolations aren't okay. They could be true if the things in the universe that you don't know about turn out in a certain way. But your extrapolations are going to turn out to be untrue, because the things that you don't know will turn out to be what Bio needs them to be, and we all know it.

There's no rewrite. The Collector Cruiser was always far larger than organic-race cruisers. About dreadnought length, but with a substantially larger internal volume. (Of course, we have no data on what percentage of that space is vital machinery, but that's one of those facts that will break whatever way Bio needs it to break.) The models have been extracted and compared; your impression was just wrong, probably because you heard "cruiser" and assumed a size.

That's why I said my extrapolations are logical.  They are based on what has been shown about how the Reapers think and act.  If Bioware wants to wizard away certain uncomfortable details, there's really nothing I can do about it.  But that doesn't make my own assessment any less reasonable.

 

THen really, we can't take anything Bioware says or does seriously, as "facts" are just whatever happens to be convenient at the time.

[Iakus]

Except we don't know anything, do we? We don't know how anyone is getting to Andromeda or even why. This entire forum is just a mass of speculation, so to say that the devs have already decided that it's breaking lore is a bit ridiculous.

We know getting to Andromeda with current cycle technology is substantially less likely than crossing the Pacific in a rowboat.  It would take either yet another miracle technology or a contrivance of unique circumstances to accomplish this (or perhaps both)

 

Yes, there is a lot of speculation going on.  But I am bringing up the sad and unfortunate truth that Mass Effect has a rather poor record at coming up with reasonable explanations for how this stuff gets found.

 

As I have repeatedly said, if this is an effective reboot or a "Final Fantasy"-style AU, then fine.  New setting, new rules.  in the (highly unlikely) event that the explanation actually makes sense, then I'll shut up then as well. *  But as I said, the track record says this is rather unlikely.  Especially given the ...creative direction... the series is likely to take.

 

*Amusingly, not to long ago, someone dug up a Cerberus News Network involving experiments in black holes that could lead to travel to other galaxies that actually looked rather compelling, to the point where I could have accepted it.  Sadly, it turned out to be fan-made.

[AlanC9]

That's why I said my extrapolations are logical. They are based on what has been shown about how the Reapers think and act. If Bioware wants to wizard away certain uncomfortable details, there's really nothing I can do about it. But that doesn't make my own assessment any less reasonable.

THen really, we can't take anything Bioware says or does seriously, as "facts" are just whatever happens to be convenient at the time.

You do realize that this response has nothing to do with what I actually posted, right?

Edit. I'd better not assume that. So, for the record, I was talking about cases where there's no retcon, because there aren't any established facts to retcon. For instance, we don't know anything about how the drives on a Collector Cruiser work, so if Bio wants to make them have no fuel or discharge requirements, they can.

[Cheviot]

I've been convinced by the good arguments that ME:A is disconnected from the ME3 endings, and it's not in the Milky Way. So how is it a ME game at all? None of the characters, no remnants of the storyline.

The races of the Shepard trilogy will be there, along with the history and the technology.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Could you supply a quote, please?  Like I said, there was a lot of back and forth on this in the past.

I can supply even better than a quote. I can supply how it affects the single player campaign, and how those missions are explicitly talked about in Mass Effect 3: Citadel. If that isn't enough proof for you, then sorry. 

 

Thank you, that is illuminating.  THough I would say that comment on "regular psych evals indicates it might not be foolproof.  Still I do stand corrected.

You're welcome. 

More likely it was still experimental, thus why isn't widespread yet, and when it comes to Reapers it is best to have contingency plans just in case.

 

Again, we don't know that, because we only ever see the one ship.  How do we know it's a "standard combat unit?"  FOr that matter, why does that make SOvereigns "dreadnoughts" given how often they are deplayed in the war?

We as in Shepard only see the one ship, but the galaxy as a whole has seen more than that ship. Our cycle has encountered several ships, all similar to each other, thus can constitute being called the standard ship. 

Well, let's look at what missions the Reaper Dreadnought partake in. There is the attempt to take the Citadel to open the Citadel Relay, which is a mission of vital importance. There is the attempt to eliminate the Leviathan survivors, which is a vital mission since they can threaten the Reapers, and there is the assault and occupation of Earth, Palaven, and Thessia, which are vital missions since those are the top races in our cycle and the Reaper's most vital mission is the harvest of our cycle. In less important missions, like poisoning Tuchanka or supporting the Heretics, the mission was left to Reaper Destroyers. Though it is most likely that it is only because of Sovereign's missions that dubbed him a Geth Dreadnought and later Reaper Dreadnought, so those Reapers like him got the same designation. 

 

It's not human, asari, turian, etc.  That's what I believe he meant by not matching a known signature.  It's a cruiser, but whose cruiser, and what kind?

Again, it fits the parameters of the role of a Cruiser. Asari Cruisers are about as large as our Dreadnoughts counting their wings, yet are still called Cruisers. But I can tell you aren't going to budge on this despite how much evidence is shown to you, so I'm done spending time trying to convince you.

 

And the Destiny Ascension is apparently bigger than SOvereign and Harbinger combined, which are already twice the size of a standard dreadnought.  Like I said, these sizes are really screwed up.

The Destiny Ascension isn't just an ordinary Dreadnought. It is the flag ship of the entire Council Space fleets. Plus a lot of its size is because of how it is built, most being just the wings and a large hollow space in the middle. 

[Iakus]

I can supply even better than a quote. I can supply how it affects the single player campaign, and how those missions are explicitly talked about in Mass Effect 3: Citadel. If that isn't enough proof for you, then sorry. 

 

This is true, though CItadel does lean on the fourth wall a lot.  It still doesn't address the dissonance of fighting Cerberus on Earth, or alongside geth when you destroy them on Rannoch and such.  Just ow "canon" is all this?  Plus it's effect on SP goes away if you're ever disconnected from the Internet.

 

 

We as in Shepard only see the one ship, but the galaxy as a whole has seen more than that ship. Our cycle has encountered several ships, all similar to each other, thus can constitute being called the standard ship.

Actually, the Collectors are so rarely seen most people consider them a myth.

 

 

Well, let's look at what missions the Reaper Dreadnought partake in. There is the attempt to take the Citadel to open the Citadel Relay, which is a mission of vital importance. There is the attempt to eliminate the Leviathan survivors, which is a vital mission since they can threaten the Reapers, and there is the assault and occupation of Earth, Palaven, and Thessia, which are vital missions since those are the top races in our cycle and the Reaper's most vital mission is the harvest of our cycle. In less important missions, like poisoning Tuchanka or supporting the Heretics, the mission was left to Reaper Destroyers. Though it is most likely that it is only because of Sovereign's missions that dubbed him a Geth Dreadnought and later Reaper Dreadnought, so those Reapers like him got the same designation.

Except Sovereign is referred to as a dreadnought as early as Virmire, if not sooner.  Back when that was only Reaper in the galaxy and it was the only known point of reference.  Ashley specifically refers to the Reapers a "a race of sentient AI dreadnoughts" in ME1

 

If you don't want to debate anymore, that's fine.   But you have kept things civil, and even if I don't agree with your assessment, I do respect that you kept it polite and backed up your statements with in-game evidence.  You have made me reconsider a couple of things.

[Iakus]

You do realize that this response has nothing to do with what I actually posted, right?

Edit. I'd better not assume that. So, for the record, I was talking about cases where there's no retcon, because there aren't any established facts to retcon. For instance, we don't know anything about how the drives on a Collector Cruiser work, so if Bio wants to make them have no fuel or discharge requirements, they can.

Then we got our signals crossed.  My specific complaint about logical extrapolations is my own statements about how,  In retrospect I should have broken up the two paragraphs from what I was quoting.  My last sentence was the only one that pertained to the cruiser/dreadnought thing.  I was expressing frustration at their lack of clarity regarding what the Collector Ship is.  That, like Cerberus, they they will freely alter its  identity and capabilities to service whatever story is being told

 

At any rate, if the Reapers do have intergalactic travel capabilities, then logically they should have used it, based on the mandates they follow (however bizarrely).  That gets laughed at, despite the in-game evidence I show.  Yet the idea that the Reapers have intergalactic capability at all is accepted as gospel based on evidence that I personally find rather flimsy.

 

Your response said (or rather, seemed to say) that in the end, what makes sense or doesn't is irrelevant, that Bioware will justify Reaper insularity with whatever handwave strikes their fancy.  "Wizard away certain uncomfortable details" as I said.  It wasn't a dig at the Reapers have the capability, it's at refusing to take the Reapers having that ability to its logical conclusion that I find frustrating.

[AlanC9]

Then we got our signals crossed.  My specific complaint about logical extrapolations is my own statements about how,  In retrospect I should have broken up the two paragraphs from what I was quoting.  My last sentence was the only one that pertained to the cruiser/dreadnought thing.  I was expressing frustration at their lack of clarity regarding what the Collector Ship is.  That, like Cerberus, they they will freely alter its  identity and capabilities to service whatever story is being told

Again, the Collector Cruiser never changed. It was always dreadnought size, and always called a cruiser. I get that calling it a cruiser gave you the wrong idea about the size, but really, no term from an organic navy would be correct for such a ship. It's too big for a cruiser, too weak for a dreadnought.

Your response said (or rather, seemed to say) that in the end, what makes sense or doesn't is irrelevant, that Bioware will justify Reaper insularity with whatever handwave strikes their fancy.  "Wizard away certain uncomfortable details" as I said.  It wasn't a dig at the Reapers have the capability, it's at refusing to take the Reapers having that ability to its logical conclusion that I find frustrating.

Actually, I was saying that we have to have the details before making that determination.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This is true, though CItadel does lean on the fourth wall a lot.  It still doesn't address the dissonance of fighting Cerberus on Earth, or alongside geth when you destroy them on Rannoch and such.  Just ow "canon" is all this?  Plus it's effect on SP goes away if you're ever disconnected from the Internet.

Well, it would make sense that Cerberus have a strong presence on Earth, even if in the shadows, since it is our homeworld to serve as a defense force against any threat The Illusive Man sees as such. When the Reapers show up, all the Cerberus personnel are turned to fight for the Reapers since they are indoctrinated and basically advanced husks. As for the Heretics, that is actually explained ingame. After finishing Rannoch, the Asari Councilor mentions how the Reapers have filled some Geth platforms with Reaper code and how those are still enemies.

 

Actually, the Collectors are so rarely seen most people consider them a myth.

Most people, yes. Most governments, no. The Collectors have shown up enough that intelligence agencies know about them. For example Mordin immediately accepts the Collectors as involved with the plague on Omega. Warlord Okeer and other groups have traded with them, giving desired specimens in exchange for advanced technology. 

 

Except Sovereign is referred to as a dreadnought as early as Virmire, if not sooner.  Back when that was only Reaper in the galaxy and it was the only known point of reference.  Ashley specifically refers to the Reapers a "a race of sentient AI dreadnoughts" in ME1

 

If you don't want to debate anymore, that's fine.   But you have kept things civil, and even if I don't agree with your assessment, I do respect that you kept it polite and backed up your statements with in-game evidence.  You have made me reconsider a couple of things.

That was when Sovereign was seen as a Geth or some unknown race's ship that Saren found, and it was only involved in the Battle of Eden Prime which was a vital mission for their side since a Prothean Beacon was there. As for Ashley, it could be she wasn't referring to specifically the designation dreadnought but just the term dreadnought, which is "a type of warship heavier in armor or armament than a typical battleship".

 

Thank you for staying civil as well. It makes discussions a lot more enjoyable. And I am glad that I brought new thoughts and perspectives for you to consider.  I just think at this point we've exhausted any avenues of the ship classification that we can't discuss it anymore. I refer to them as Black Arks anyway since during the Reaper War that's what they were dubbed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Again, the Collector Cruiser never changed. It was always dreadnought size, and always called a cruiser. I get that calling it a cruiser gave you the wrong idea about the size, but really, no term from an organic navy would be correct for such a ship. It's too big for a cruiser, too weak for a dreadnought.

The one we fought in Mass Effect 2 seemed to go down easy in the final battle, but we did have the most advanced and powerful guns available. When those guns are turned on our dreadnoughts, they fare no better. And on Horizon and in Mass Effect: Paragon Lost, we see they are much more sturdy, able to repel assaults from anti-ship guns with little or no damage. 

[goishen]

Huh.   Guess I never really thought of that.  

 

Ya know how TIM picked up the human reaper prototype?   Well, obviously there would still be remnants of the old collector ship, too.  So, he picked those up intending to use as fuel for his dummy corporations to use, seeing as they had much better tech.  TIM doesn't care about any of that, at the moment.  So, the alliance comes along and captures his space station...   Finds out where he's hiding the collector ship, fixes it, and then we fly off to Andromeda.    

 

Nahhh.   Too tight of a timeline.   Dammit.  

 

But it is possible that one of his previous bases (on Noveria, I'm presuming), had the location.  That might be how we get to Andromeda.  Hmm.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Huh.   Guess I never really thought of that.  

 

Ya know how TIM picked up the human reaper prototype?   Well, obviously there would still be remnants of the old collector ship, too.  So, he picked those up intending to use as fuel for his dummy corporations to use, seeing as they had much better tech.  TIM doesn't care about any of that, at the moment.  So, the alliance comes along and captures his space station...   Finds out where he's hiding the collector ship, fixes it, and then we fly off to Andromeda.    

 

Nahhh.   Too tight of a timeline.   Dammit.  

 

But it is possible that one of his previous bases (on Noveria, I'm presuming), had the location.  That might be how we get to Andromeda.  Hmm.

There is also the wreckage of the one that abducted Fehl Prime in Mass Effect: Paragon Lost. With the wreckage and the extensive data James Vega and his team gathered, the Alliance could reverse engineer it. And that gives them a lot longer of a timeline, since that happened around the beginning of Mass Effect 2, since word of Shepard being alive had just started to circulate at the end of the film. 

[Iakus]

By the Maker, I think i've got something!

We don't need FTL. Or core discharge solutions We don't even need a wormhole.

It's a mass relay! It's another Conduit that's the answer!

Consider: how did the Leviathans escape being wiped out and persist to the presentwhen every other race has failed? We know the Reapers can spend do centuries scouring the galaxy. What if...the Leviathans managed to flee the galaxy? What if they had a relay to Andromeda that the Reapers didn't know about, and ever managed to find?

Think about it. The Reapers created the relay network, but did they invent the tech? The Leviathan were an apex race and not afraid to expand a day enslave other races. They could have ventured out, or sent a slave race out to build a Conduit in Andromeda for them. And they could potentially use tech that's not based on mass effect technology to do it. Remember the Reapers gave the galaxy mass effect technology TO CONTROL THEIR DEVELOPMENT! A trap to limit our development. If anyone could find a way around the limits of Mas effect technology, it's a race that predates the cycles.

Okay, the Leviathans find a way to Andromeda and build a Conduit for fast travel between galaxies so they can create an intergalactic empire. The ICatalyst betrays them and starts harvesting them. But some escape through the relay and hide. The relay is hidden well enough that the Catalyst never finds it. May not have even known it existed (similar to the Protea Conudit thing from ME1 except the Catalyst knows some got away somehow. Leviathan return from time to time to observe and play god-emperor to primitive or isolated peoples, but can't harness the strength to strike back.

The Reapers due to some sort of design feature can't make the trip to Andromeda on their own. Perhaps they are limited due to the method used to "preserve" their organic parts? Dunno. Point is, they can't make the trip but with this hidden relay, we can. Perhaps it's found and used during the war and has to be destroyed before the reapers could secure it?

Hmm, also leads to question of what have the Leviathans Ben doing for the last billion years? What other apex species is may have arisen in Andromeda. So many possibilities.

Not great, mostly stream of conciousness pretty derivative of the first Mass Effect game. But better to rip that off than "Resources" I guess.

See, I can be positive!