151 réponses à ce sujet

[ThoughtlessRanter]

Yow!  And meds, no doubt.  Feel better soon.  

Thanks! And nope, dont take them, have addicts in the family. I'm just this crazy regularly.

 

Okay, I'm on neutral ground now. I'll take a crack at this (hehe)

 

Given what you know of Solas, what would you do in his place? Thedas is ruled by tyrannical power-hungry leaders and you start a rebellion to stop them. You create the Veil, imprisoning the Evanuris and your people in one convenient bubble. You sleep for a thousand years, find a way to reverse what you did and bring your people back. The only problem is the people who took their place (current Thedosians) might die. The current world is kind of mirroring what you tried to stop to begin with - powerful people enslaving others - The Circle, the Qun, Tevinter Imperium - the list goes on. The cycle is restarting, and to you, people are like Tranquil. You have only met a few who are actually decent people fighting to reverse this. 

 

Now you have the ability to bring back the original people (ancient elves) who fought in the rebellion against the Evanuris - and rid the world of the accumulating trend of slavery. All the people you knew and cared for can come back, but this current world will suffer. 

 

You might still say you wouldn't do it, but you have to at least sympathize with Solas in that it's an *extremely* difficult decision to make. You literally have the fate of two worlds in your hands and you're constantly weighing the pros and cons of your decision. You might still disagree with his choice, but at least you have to respect how difficult of a choice it is.

 

It's not like he's doing it for the fun of it, it's a legitimate conundrum. If he *didn't* try to do it, some might still call him a monster for not trying to fix his mistake.

Very punny! Haaa no wonder people keep accusing me of being under the influence.

Nothing could ever justify mass genocide. It sucks that all that craps going on and I would of felt bad for him, my Inquisitor would of tried to help him if it weren't for his racism/murderous intent/hypocrisy 

I sympathized with him (past tense) but now I have nothing but disgust for him.

He's being selfish, his people arent more important, their lives aren't worth more.

Ugh, it makes me feel gross for ever liking him and not realizing what a a** he was earlier.

[robertmarilyn]

Nothing could ever justify mass genocide. It sucks that all that craps going on and I would of felt bad for him, my Inquisitor would of tried to help him if it weren't for his racism/murderous intent/hypocrisy 

I sympathized with him (past tense) but now I have nothing but disgust for him.

He's being selfish, his people arent more important, their lives aren't worth more.

Ugh, it makes me feel gross for ever liking him and not realizing what a a** he was earlier.

 

When someone has so much power and chooses to use it to commit mass genocide, I cannot sympathize with him at all. 

[Jaderail]

Thanks! And nope, dont take them, have addicts in the family. I'm just this crazy regularly.

 

Very punny! Haaa no wonder people keep accusing me of being under the influence.

Nothing could ever justify mass genocide. It sucks that all that craps going on and I would of felt bad for him, my Inquisitor would of tried to help him if it weren't for his racism/murderous intent/hypocrisy 

I sympathized with him (past tense) but now I have nothing but disgust for him.

He's being selfish, his people arent more important, their lives aren't worth more.

Ugh, it makes me feel gross for ever liking him and not realizing what a a** he was earlier.

 

His people's lives aren't worth more to you, but to him they are. It's like if I asked you, would you bring your family and friends back if it meant the rest of the world had to die, especially since your family/friends are gone because of you? It's a really hard decision to make. It's not a black and white good vs. evil fight. And I don't think Solas is irredeemable, he's acting out of conviction/retribution. It's like weighing the guilt of one action versus the other.

 

Sure, mass genocide is a terrible decision in general - but if mass genocide of one group of people meant the survival of another group of people it's a little different. You're entering a grey area there because your actions are still (remotely) justifiable, especially to those who will benefit from the decision.

[Reznore57]

His people's lives aren't worth more to you, but to him they are. It's like if I asked you, would you bring your family and friends back if it meant the rest of the world had to die, especially since your family/friends are gone because of you? It's a really hard decision to make. It's not a black and white good vs. evil fight. And I don't think Solas is irredeemable, he's acting out of conviction/retribution. It's like weighing the guilt of one action versus the other.

 

Sure, mass genocide is a terrible decision in general - but if mass genocide of one group of people meant the survival of another group of people it's a little different. You're entering a grey area there because your actions are still (remotely) justifiable, especially to those who will benefit from the decision.

 

He sort of killed most of his people when he created the veil...those who survived are now generations later city elves/Dalish,

the ancient elves who are still alive like Abelas or Felassan are well still alive if of course he didn't kill them *cough*

So the man is not saving People , he's killing them to recreate an ideal he can live with.

 

Theere's no killing this group of people so this other group of people can live...that's not what's happening here.

It's killing this group of people so he can recreate a master race he prefers.

[ThoughtlessRanter]

When someone has so much power and chooses to use it to commit mass genocide, I cannot sympathize with him at all. 

I friggin agree so much dude!

 

His people's lives aren't worth more to you, but to him they are. It's like if I asked you, would you bring your family and friends back if it meant the rest of the world had to die, especially since your family/friends are gone because of you? It's a really hard decision to make. It's not a black and white good vs. evil fight. And I don't think Solas is irredeemable, he's acting out of conviction/retribution. It's like weighing the guilt of one action versus the other.

 

Sure, mass genocide is a terrible decision in general - but if mass genocide of one group of people meant the survival of another group of people it's a little different. You're entering a grey area there because your actions are still (remotely) justifiable, especially to those who will benefit from the decision.

Uh, should that be a hard decision? It's the whole friggin world!! The "gray" area you're entering is supremacism, you thinking you and you're people are better. They're not. This isn't friggin which species of plant will strangle the other one extinct. These are people! PEOPLE!

 

He sort of killed most of his people when he created the veil...those who survived are now generations later city elves/Dalish,

the ancient elves who are still alive like Abelas or Felassan are well still alive if of course he didn't kill them *cough*

So the man is not saving People , he's killing them to recreate an ideal he can live with.

 

Theere's no killing this group of people so this other group of people can live...that's not what's happening here.

It's killing this group of people so he can recreate a master race he prefers.

Well friggin put!

[Jaderail]

He sort of killed most of his people when he created the veil...those who survived are now generations later city elves/Dalish,

the ancient elves who are still alive like Abelas or Felassan are well still alive if of course he didn't kill them *cough*

So the man is not saving People , he's killing them to recreate an ideal he can live with.

 

Theere's no killing this group of people so this other group of people can live...that's not what's happening here.

It's killing this group of people so he can recreate a master race he prefers.

 

Is that what he means though? I may have misinterpreted it. When you talk with him in Trespasser he says there's hope for restoration, but he isn't specific about how. To me it means, if Solas has to pull down the veil to restore his people, it seems that the ancient elves went wherever the Evanuris went, and that in order to free them he has to remove the Veil, thus causing demon chaos in Thedas, and releasing the Evanuris. He even says he has plans to deal with the Evanuris when he destroys the Veil, which implies the Evanuris are trapped somewhere. I was under the impression his people were also trapped in the Crossroads somewhere. You find evidence of some of them leaving angry notes about Fen'Harel trapping them there in Trespasser. So some of them did survive the plunge into the Crossroads. I can only assume that some are also still alive in there somewhere.

 

It didn't even occur to me that he's going the "racial purity" route. 

[Carmen_Willow]

I decided to buy Trespasser because I wanted answers about the post-credit scene. I DIDN'T WANT A THOUSAND MORE QUESTIONS!!

 

F****** SOLAS! I thought we were bros! We laughed at Vivs expense together, we said f*** off to the Gray Wardens together, we looked down on the dalish together, sure I skipped through your dialogues, but I thought to ask. It's the thought that counts!

 

And now you want to destroy the world, with me in it presumably, that hurts man. 

And we had all these questions to ask him but none of the questions I wanted to ask.

Why are you being such an psychopath?

Why are you such a racist?

Why are the ancient elves so great? They seem like d***s to me.

 

GOD I WANTED TO KICK YOUR BALD A**! 

Effing I'm not a god but I'm going to decide the fate of this world cuz I can

Bring the Veil down! I JUST SPENT A GAME FIXING THAT SHITE!

 

 

Now for my next rant. Disclaimer: Mildly offensive

 

AWMYGAWDMYHANDMYF******ARM!!!!!

My bada** effing power fantasy Inquisitor now has a stump where and arm should be!

WHAT DA FUQ!?

I HATE AMPUTATION!

That shite is freaky. My crazy a** father made me volunteer at a VA hospital when I was a lad. You don't get over that crap, I couldn't even effing look at my once bad** effing power fantasy Inquisitor.

 

WHO THE FUQ TOOK MY ARM OFF CUZ IT WAS NOT ME!!??

 

EFFING SOLAS!?!? 

I hate you so much right now

And yeah he saved my life but if weren't for him I never would of even had that effing green fade power!!!

MY F****** ARM!!

 

I WANT TO KILL THAT BAST*RD!

TAKES MY LOOT, TAKES MY ARM, AND MAKES ME LOOK LIKE A DUMBA**

 

Like yeah the guy about to destroy the whole f****** world was my friend, yeah he's probably worst than Coryphwhatever. 

He doesn't think so though, no mister and high mighty think he's some Jesus effing Christ sent down to save the elves!!!!

And you know, kill other people while he's at it!!

HE'S LIKE A HITLER AND I LIKED HIM!!

 

THIS DLC!! It has me so worked up!!

 

AND I WANT TO HUNT HIM DOWN AND BEAT HIM TO A BLOODY STREAK BUT I CAN'T STAND TO EVEN LOOK AT MY INQUISITOR ANYMORE!

That's good writing for you! Gets you all worked up. Hey, I'm looking forward to deciding what sort of prosthetic my Quizzie will wear! Golden Hook?  Leather arm? So many possibilities.  But yeah, he treated us like his "friends" treated their slaves, and he wants to destroy my world and my true companions so....DA:4 REVENGE OF THE MUNDANE!

[Carmen_Willow]

I didn't identify the beneficiary of those good intentions, did I? 

 

Solas is and has always been short-sighted. He has made a staggering number of bad decisions, at mind-boggling cost. Maybe his biggest mistake is the belief that he is the only one capable of fixing them. Or that it's desirable to even attempt it.

 

"I never said it was a good plan." He says that not long after you meet, and it's more or less typical of most of the plans he's had to date. He's misled by his hubris - his pride - into thinking that his solutions are the only ones... but then he approves wholeheartedly when someone comes up with something better. If you tell him you plan to save him from himself, he tells you that he treasures the chance to be proven wrong again. In other words, he does understand that he's fallible, even if it doesn't occur to him until after the fact. I love the fact that he's allowed to be deeply flawed. It makes him so much richer as a character, and much more likable.

 

So yes,  I and many others do find him to be a sympathetic character, even if you don't. And nobody said that you had to.

 

Anyway, you can't have a game without an antagonist. I'm overjoyed to find that this time, it's one we already care about (one way or another).

Hurbris really should be listed as one of the deadly sins (Oh wait, it is!). So many have felt they were the only one who could "make things right."

And I agree about Solas being one of the better characters. They allowed us to become emotionally attached to him in one way or another, and now, it seems we must fight him. Some of Bioware's better writing IMHO.

[Eivuwan]

He sort of killed most of his people when he created the veil...those who survived are now generations later city elves/Dalish,

the ancient elves who are still alive like Abelas or Felassan are well still alive if of course he didn't kill them *cough*

So the man is not saving People , he's killing them to recreate an ideal he can live with.

 

Theere's no killing this group of people so this other group of people can live...that's not what's happening here.

It's killing this group of people so he can recreate a master race he prefers.

 

I just want to point out that his decision to put up the veil was because if he didn't, the Evanuris would have destroyed the world. So putting up the veil likely hurt/killed a lot of people, but it might have been worse had he not done that. He is probably thinking that the current situation is similar, perhaps for reasons that we do not know yet.

[Reznore57]

 

 

It didn't even occur to me that he's going the "racial purity" route. 

 

He talks a bit like the current races are degenerate.

Even late in the game , in the friendship path , he tells you how your people are savage or moron except you ...and he hints he thinks you may be special because you bear his mark and his elven magic has made you better than the rest.

 

About ancient elves stuck somewhere well he never says this , it's possible but I doubt he would need to tear down the veil.

The elven people used Eluvian , and you just need keys to unlock them.

 

And there's a couple of hints , elves were spirits in origin , they just did a Cole , manifested themselves in the material realm.Remember how he is fond of spirits , and beats you on the head how they're people ...(comparing them to Cassandra , Leliana etc he doesn't truly see as people at this point ,you can have this conversation in Haven )

If this is the case , he doesn't need surviving ancient elves , he just need spirits to rebuild his utopia.

[Carmen_Willow]

Okay, I'm on neutral ground now. I'll take a crack at this (hehe)

 

Given what you know of Solas, what would you do in his place? Thedas is ruled by tyrannical power-hungry leaders and you start a rebellion to stop them. You create the Veil, imprisoning the Evanuris and your people in one convenient bubble. You sleep for a thousand years, find a way to reverse what you did and bring your people back. The only problem is the people who took their place (current Thedosians) might die. The current world is kind of mirroring what you tried to stop to begin with - powerful people enslaving others - The Circle, the Qun, Tevinter Imperium - the list goes on. The cycle is restarting, and to you, people are like Tranquil. You have only met a few who are actually decent people fighting to reverse this. 

 

Now you have the ability to bring back the original people (ancient elves) who fought in the rebellion against the Evanuris - and rid the world of the accumulating trend of slavery. All the people you knew and cared for can come back, but this current world will suffer. 

 

You might still say you wouldn't do it, but you have to at least sympathize with Solas in that it's an *extremely* difficult decision to make. You literally have the fate of two worlds in your hands and you're constantly weighing the pros and cons of your decision. You might still disagree with his choice, but at least you have to respect how difficult of a choice it is.

 

It's not like he's doing it for the fun of it, it's a legitimate conundrum. If he *didn't* try to do it, some might still call him a monster for not trying to fix his mistake.

His very solution is that which EVERY person with power seems to create: I'LL TAKE OVER, and I'll fix everything! Solas himself is spinning that circle yet again! It is in the nature of people with power to abuse it be they human, elven, dwarf, you name it. Unless he can prove to me that the world of Thedas as it now stands is hopelessly doomed, he has no right to think that HIS world (the "perfect" one he hopes to create) is better or more important than mine. His "people" have already shown that they are just as power-mad as any other sentient race on the planet, so he has no moral ground upon which to stand other than "I want my perfect world and you can go suck eggs."

[KaiserShep]

Solas is easily my favorite antagonist. I hope I get to kill him with extreme prejudice, either by the remaining hand of Inky or the awesome powers of PC #4. 

[ThoughtlessRanter]

He talks a bit like the current races are degenerate.

Even late in the game , in the friendship path , he tells you how your people are savage or moron except you ...and he hints he thinks you may be special because you bear his mark and his elven magic has made you better than the rest.

 

About ancient elves stuck somewhere well he never says this , it's possible but I doubt he would need to tear down the veil.

The elven people used Eluvian , and you just need keys to unlock them.

 

And there's a couple of hints , elves were spirits in origin , they just did a Cole , manifested themselves in the material realm.Remember how he is fond of spirits , and beats you on the head how they're people ...(comparing them to Cassandra , Leliana etc he doesn't truly see as people at this point ,you can have this conversation in Haven )

If this is the case , he doesn't need surviving ancient elves , he just need spirits to rebuild his utopia.

Yeah, I remember that. i had let it slide because sometimes people say kind of racist things without meaning to, but I would of appreciated the option to say something to him about it.

[Shechinah]

He talks a bit like the current races are degenerate.

Even late in the game , in the friendship path , he tells you how your people are savage or moron except you ...and he hints he thinks you may be special because you bear his mark and his elven magic has made you better than the rest.)

 

I'll have to see what he says to other Inquisitors but if you are Dalish, he considers if he were wrong about your people and gives them credit. I consider the scene to be showng how his view is changing because of his friendship with the Inquisitor.

 

Solas: "What were you like before the Anchor? Has it affected you? Changed you in any way? Your mind, your morals, your spirit...?"

Inquisitor: "I don't believe so."

Solas: "Ah"

Inquisitor: "Why do you ask?"

Solas: "You show a wisdom I have not seen since... since my deepest journeys into the ancient memories of the fade. You are not what I expected."

Inquisitor: "Sorry to disappoint."

Solas: "It's not disappointing, it's... most people are predictable. You have shown subtlety in your actions, a wisdom that goes against everything I expected. If the Dalish could raise someone with a spirit like yours... have I misjudged them?"

Inquisitor: "The Dalish didn't make me like this. The decisions were mine."

Solas: "Yes, you are wise to give yourself that due. Although the Dalish, in their fashion, may still have guided you."

[ComedicSociopathy]

I'll have to see what he says to other Inquisitors but if you are Dalish, he considers if he were wrong about your people and gives them credit. I consider the scene to be showng how his view is changing because of his friendship with the Inquisitor.

 

Solas: "What were you like before the Anchor? Has it affected you? Changed you in any way? Your mind, your morals, your spirit...?"

Inquisitor: "I don't believe so."

Solas: "Ah"

Inquisitor: "Why do you ask?"

Solas: "You show a wisdom I have not seen since... since my deepest journeys into the ancient memories of the fade. You are not what I expected."

Inquisitor: "Sorry to disappoint."

Solas: "It's not disappointing, it's... most people are predictable. You have shown subtlety in your actions, a wisdom that goes against everything I expected. If the Dalish could raise someone with a spirit like yours... have I misjudged them?"

Inquisitor: "The Dalish didn't make me like this. The decisions were mine."

Solas: "Yes, you are wise to give yourself that due. Although the Dalish, in their fashion, may still have guided you."

 

Still doesn't stop him from planning to kill them all though. Kind of makes his whole reevaluation of their merits pointless, really. 

[renfrees]

I just want to point out that his decision to put up the veil was because if he didn't, the Evanuris would have destroyed the world. So putting up the veil likely hurt/killed a lot of people, but it might have been worse had he not done that. He is probably thinking that the current situation is similar, perhaps for reasons that we do not know yet.

And whose account do we have on this - Solas'? Uh-huh. Evanuris might have destroyed the world, but Solas did, and plans to do it again. How's he any better than them?

[Donk]

I decided to buy Trespasser because I wanted answers about the post-credit scene. I DIDN'T WANT A THOUSAND MORE QUESTIONS!!

 

F****** SOLAS! I thought we were bros! We laughed at Vivs expense together, we said f*** off to the Gray Wardens together, we looked down on the dalish together, sure I skipped through your dialogues, but I thought to ask. It's the thought that counts!

 

And now you want to destroy the world, with me in it presumably, that hurts man. 

And we had all these questions to ask him but none of the questions I wanted to ask.

Why are you being such an psychopath?

Why are you such a racist?

Why are the ancient elves so great? They seem like d***s to me.

 

GOD I WANTED TO KICK YOUR BALD A**! 

Effing I'm not a god but I'm going to decide the fate of this world cuz I can

Bring the Veil down! I JUST SPENT A GAME FIXING THAT SHITE!

 

 

Now for my next rant. Disclaimer: Mildly offensive

 

AWMYGAWDMYHANDMYF******ARM!!!!!

My bada** effing power fantasy Inquisitor now has a stump where and arm should be!

WHAT DA FUQ!?

I HATE AMPUTATION!

That shite is freaky. My crazy a** father made me volunteer at a VA hospital when I was a lad. You don't get over that crap, I couldn't even effing look at my once bad** effing power fantasy Inquisitor.

 

WHO THE FUQ TOOK MY ARM OFF CUZ IT WAS NOT ME!!??

 

EFFING SOLAS!?!? 

I hate you so much right now

And yeah he saved my life but if weren't for him I never would of even had that effing green fade power!!!

MY F****** ARM!!

 

I WANT TO KILL THAT BAST*RD!

TAKES MY LOOT, TAKES MY ARM, AND MAKES ME LOOK LIKE A DUMBA**

 

Like yeah the guy about to destroy the whole f****** world was my friend, yeah he's probably worst than Coryphwhatever. 

He doesn't think so though, no mister and high mighty think he's some Jesus effing Christ sent down to save the elves!!!!

And you know, kill other people while he's at it!!

HE'S LIKE A HITLER AND I LIKED HIM!!

 

THIS DLC!! It has me so worked up!!

 

AND I WANT TO HUNT HIM DOWN AND BEAT HIM TO A BLOODY STREAK BUT I CAN'T STAND TO EVEN LOOK AT MY INQUISITOR ANYMORE!

 

I approve of this rant. It's refreshing.

[Eivuwan]

And whose account do we have on this - Solas'? Uh-huh. Evanuris might have destroyed the world, but Solas did, and plans to do it again. How's he any better than them?

We don't have much details on what happened in the past or what solas plans to do. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until I know more.

[renfrees]

We don't have much details on what happened in the past or what solas plans to do. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until I know more.

There is no room for doubts when you're playing with the fates of millions.

[Shechinah]

Still doesn't stop him from planning to kill them all though. Kind of makes his whole reevaluation of their merits pointless, really. 

 

Not in my opinion;

 

I believe that it is soldiers who among the people that has to sometimes deal with these sorts of situations: sometimes an enemy soldier is someone that the soldier can recognise is doing what they believe is right and to defend their country and it's people - their family and friends included. 

 

The soldier's acknowledgement of the enemy soldier as a human being is not made pointless by the fact that they may still have to fight and kill the enemy soldier. Depending on who you are, it can makes it more tragic than dehumanisation.

 

[Mrs_Stick]

My inquisitor is just waiting for the day she gets to kill that little bald bastard.

[berelinde]

Still doesn't stop him from planning to kill them all though. Kind of makes his whole reevaluation of their merits pointless, really. 

Not necessarily. Solas isn't likely to reconsider his stance unless someone presents him with an alternative... or unless someone can convince him that the world he wants to bring back is gone beyond recall. The latter seems more probable. He thinks that if the Veil were gone, everything would go back to the way it was before. It's far more likely that the result would be Future!Redcliffe. The spirits you meet in the Shattered Library are (mostly) friendly and helpful because their exposure to mortals has allowed them to interact without corrupting their natures. The spirits elsewhere - those who pour through the rifts - don't have the benefit of that experience, so exposure to mortal ambitions perverts them. They become demons.

 

Solas imagines that the Fade is mostly like the Shattered Library because that's what he knew. In reality, it changed while he was sleeping. Maybe all he needs is a little more exploration of the Fade and its denizens to convince him that he needs to rethink his plan.

 

If that even works. You'd think that after fighting as many demons as he has, he might begin to understand that the Fade he knew and loved is gone.

[Tielis]

Not necessarily. Solas isn't likely to reconsider his stance unless someone presents him with an alternative... or unless someone can convince him that the world he wants to bring back is gone beyond recall. The latter seems more probable. He thinks that if the Veil were gone, everything would go back to the way it was before. It's far more likely that the result would be Future!Redcliffe. The spirits you meet in the Shattered Library are (mostly) friendly and helpful because their exposure to mortals has allowed them to interact without corrupting their natures. The spirits elsewhere - those who pour through the rifts - don't have the benefit of that experience, so exposure to mortal ambitions perverts them. They become demons.

 

Solas imagines that the Fade is mostly like the Shattered Library because that's what he knew. In reality, it changed while he was sleeping. Maybe all he needs is a little more exploration of the Fade and its denizens to convince him that he needs to rethink his plan.

 

If that even works. You'd think that after fighting as many demons as he has, he might begin to understand that the Fade he knew and loved is gone.

 

That's a very good point!  We know that the Veil had adverse effects on the physical world, who is to say that it did not adversely affect the Fade as well?

[Eivuwan]

There is no room for doubts when you're playing with the fates of millions.

There is no defense for making a decision that will destroy an entire population because it is not the sort of decision that any singular person has the right to make. I am merely saying that solas may have more understandable reasons for making this decision when we know more details.

[renfrees]

There is no defense for making a decision that will destroy an entire population because it is not the sort of decision that any singular person has the right to make. I am merely saying that solas may have more understandable reasons for making this decision when we know more details.

I thought he explains his reasons pretty clearly - he wants to tear down the Veil and restore elvhen because he sees modern people as Tranquil. Yes, this world isn't perfect, but then Elvhenan wasn't perfect either. What we can learn more is his reasons for casting the Veil and sealing the Evanuris away, but his current ones aren't rocket science.

 

Genocide cannot be understandable, there is no reasons whatsoever to make it understandable. Don't try to present it as grey morality.