151 réponses à ce sujet

[Eivuwan]

I thought he explains his reasons pretty clearly - he wants to tear down the Veil and restore elvhen because he sees modern people as Tranquil. Yes, this world isn't perfect, but then Elvhenan wasn't perfect either. What we can learn more is his reasons for casting the Veil and sealing the Evanuris away, but his current ones aren't rocket science.

Genocide cannot be understandable, there is no reasons whatsoever to make it understandable. Don't try to present it as grey morality.

My initial reaction to solas was anger. However, he gave a ridiculously simple overview of his past and his plans. He also kept talking about how he needs to save his people and not just restore them. He also implied that there were no alternatives without explaining why. What if millions of ancient elves are running out of time to live and the only way to save them is to destroy other lives. We don't know the details.

[renfrees]

My initial reaction to solas was anger. However, he gave a ridiculously simple overview of his past and his plans. He also kept talking about how he needs to save his people and not just restore them. He also implied that there were no alternatives without explaining why. What if millions of ancient elves are running out of time to live and the only way to save them is to destroy other lives. We don't know the details.

When you start to measure lives as currency, then you become a tyrant.

[Jaderail]

My initial reaction to solas was anger. However, he gave a ridiculously simple overview of his past and his plans. He also kept talking about how he needs to save his people and not just restore them. He also implied that there were no alternatives without explaining why. What if millions of ancient elves are running out of time to live and the only way to save them is to destroy other lives. We don't know the details.

 

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Everyone is so quick to judge Solas' action. They think he wants to destroy the veil so he can start reality over. That plan actually makes almost no sense though, from what we learn in Trespasser, Solas *literally* created an entire valley (the first place we go into the eluvian in Trespasser) for the rebels fighting against the Evanuris. Not to mention that if Solas brings the Veil down in Thedas, *everyone* is supposedly going to die. How could he possibly recreate his ideal "elven" world when there's nobody around to fill it? 

[Sable Rhapsody]

When you start to measure lives as currency, then you become a tyrant.

 

*looks at Renegade Shep*

 

But it's ok if it's the PC

[Eivuwan]

When you start to measure lives as currency, then you be come a tyrant.

That's easy to say until you become the one who has the power or responsibility to deal with the problem.

[renfrees]

That's easy to say until you become the one who has the power or responsibility to deal with the problem.

Well, then you have to accept responsibility and the consequences of your actions, not go in diatribe - "I am not a monster, I want you to die in comfort". He is, the worst kind - the kind who thinks he's right.

[Jaderail]

When you start to measure lives as currency, then you become a tyrant.

 

Or a leader, or a soldier... since those decisions are made every time there's a war. You measure the worth of your enemies lives over the cost of losing your home and the possibility of losing your own family.

[Eivuwan]

Well, then you have to accept responsibility and the consequences of your actions, not go in diatribe - "I am not a monster, I want you to die in comfort". He is, the worst kind - the kind who thinks he's right.

Yeah I didn't like it when he started making excuses either. I think he was just trying to say that he is not a sadist. I think his biggest issue is that he thinks he is the only one who can solve the world's biggest problems.

[renfrees]

Or a leader, or a soldier... since those decisions are made every time there's a war. You measure the worth of your enemies lives over the cost of losing your home and the possibility of losing your own family.

You can't measure your enemies lives as they're not in your power. You can only measure your's against a goal you wish to achieve. 

[AllThatJazz]

Anyone remember Garrus's 'ruthless calculus of war' speech? Let a million die over here so a billion somewhere else can live? That's the horrible decision to be made by those with the responsibility - and because Solas created the veil in the first place (even though it was to prevent even more death) he sees it as his mistake to rectify. If it comes down to it, all my character will fight for modern Thedas, even if it means killing Solas. But I can understand his perspective without sharing it, and I hope for that marvellous Bioware 'third option' in DA4 or whenever the plotline is dealt with, one which ends in Solas having a change of heart.

 

Talk is cheap. It's really easy to say 'well, I would NEVER consider such a thing', or conversely 'I would TOTALLY do that!' when that decision is, in all likelihood, one that none of us will ever, ever have to make. But to be honest, it's an uncomfortable thought. I have three kids, who are (along with my husband) the most important individuals in my world. How many complete strangers' lives would I weigh against them if pushed? Quite a lot actually, hence I'm damned glad I'll probably never have to be faced with that choice. 

 

Edit: I wonder how many people hating Solas's plan also chose the Destroy ending for Shepard in ME3 - you know the one that sacrifices billions of Geth and an AI friend in order to have Shepard survive? It's interesting how our perspective can change when our PC is the one in the hotseat. I've seen all sorts of rationale for that - from 'the Geth aren't real people' (sound familiar?) to 'I'm sure they'd willingly make the sacrifice for the greater good of destroying the Reapers outright'. Pretty much Solas's perspective too, it sounds like.

 

Double edit: My first edit ninja'd by Sable, kinda! xD

[Sable Rhapsody]

Anyone remember Garrus's 'ruthless calculus of war' speech? Let a million die over here so a billion somewhere else can live? That's the horrible decision to be made by those with the responsibility - and because Solas created the veil in the first place (even though it was to prevent even more death) he sees it as his mistake to rectify. If it comes down to it, all my character will fight for modern Thedas, even if it means killing Solas. But I can understand his perspective without sharing it, and I hope for that marvellous Bioware 'third option' in DA4 or whenever the plotline is dealt with, one which ends in Solas having a change of heart.

 

As players, when placed in the position of responsibility, we frequently lie, cheat, manipulate, murder, and do any number of the things that Solas does.  We are perfectly happy to avenge betrayal with murder, as Solas did to Felassan.  We are capable of sabotaging the genophage cure to get krogan and salarian support, killing the geth, leaving entire species to die, setting the werewolves upon the Dalish, condoning Anders' acts of terrorism, and expressing viewpoints of astonishing racism and ethnocentrism...with relatively little self-examination or moral judgment, for the most part.  Count me in on this phenomenon; my maleficar Hawke in DA2 was completely without scruples, and my Warden in DA:O had a pretty significant selfish streak.

 

But when the position of responsibility belongs to a character other than the PC, we like to judge them.  Just look at all the crap that Loghain gets for defending his homeland.  We like to think that we would have done better in their shoes, simply because we play the heroes; in fact, we can do far, far worse.

[AllThatJazz]

As players, when placed in the position of responsibility, we frequently lie, cheat, manipulate, murder, and do any number of the things that Solas does.  We are perfectly happy to avenge betrayal with murder, as Solas did to Felassan.  We are capable of sabotaging the genophage cure to get krogan and salarian support, killing the geth, leaving entire species to die, setting the werewolves upon the Dalish, condoning Anders' acts of terrorism, and expressing viewpoints of astonishing racism and ethnocentrism...with relatively little self-examination or moral judgment, for the most part.  Count me in on this phenomenon; my maleficar Hawke in DA2 was completely without scruples, and my Warden in DA:O had a pretty significant selfish streak.

 

But when the position of responsibility belongs to a character other than the PC, we like to judge them.  Just look at all the crap that Loghain gets for defending his homeland.  We like to think that we would have done better in their shoes, simply because we play the heroes; in fact, we can do far, far worse.

Absolutely! How many people on these forums complain that they can't be a truly evil Inquisitor? How many people moaned that there shouldn't have been a 'magic third solution' to the Connor/Isolde problem in DAO (so we'd have been forced to murder a child or his mother)? We love the PC to be able to behave with impunity (okay, a couple of teeny consequences, but nothing too nasty please because that would be unfair!) but we offload so much hate onto NPCs who behave no differently, or who at least have the good grace to feel conflicted about it!

[Jaderail]

I think this whole discussion can be boiled down to the fact that we don't know enough about Solas' plan to legitimately be burning him at the stake. I know no matter what, some people will always hate him and want to kill him, regardless of the reasons why he is making this choice. Regardless of the fact that, if put in the same position, they could relate to what he's doing. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

We love the PC to be able to behave with impunity (okay, a couple of teeny consequences, but nothing too nasty please because that would be unfair!) but we offload so much hate onto NPCs who behave no differently, or who at least have the good grace to feel conflicted about it!

 

To be clear: I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with PC-centric thinking. I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies in how we judge characters.  It is, IMO, hard to avoid PC-centric thinking, especially in BioWare's games.  Our PCs are our links to the world; some of us play them as self-inserts, some carefully craft pages of headcanon, but all of us put a bit of ourselves into them when we play.  So of course we want our PCs to come out on top.  Of course we want them to be in the right.  That's part of the fantasy in the first place.

 

And of course, we want to be the boss.  I think that's at least part of why characters like Anders and Solas rub players the wrong way.  They break the illusion of the PC being in control, and that's not always a good feeling.  Again, a perfectly understandable reaction, but one that's worth pointing out if we're going to levy moral judgments at characters.

[AllThatJazz]

To be clear: I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with PC-centric thinking. I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies in how we judge characters.  It is, IMO, hard to avoid PC-centric thinking, especially in BioWare's games.  Our PCs are our links to the world; some of us play them as self-inserts, some carefully craft pages of headcanon, but all of us put a bit of ourselves into them when we play.  So of course we want our PCs to come out on top.  Of course we want them to be in the right.  That's part of the fantasy in the first place.

 

And of course, we want to be the boss.  I think that's at least part of why characters like Anders and Solas rub players the wrong way.  They break the illusion of the PC being in control, and that's not always a good feeling.  Again, a perfectly understandable reaction, but one that's worth pointing out if we're going to levy moral judgments at characters.

No indeed, I agree. Player agency is, and should be, King in a CRPG (within the limits of the narrative, obviously). 

 

And I love playing the villain, I have a a-hole run through of basically every game that gives me the opportunity  But the double standard? I suppose, is a fascinating thing to explore.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head there - for all that some players complain that NPCs act too much like puppets, should have their own lives etc, it does seem to cause discomfort when NPCs have 'too much' agency in a direction we don't want, when we can't say 'no you don't blow up the Chantry/hit on my Hawke/plan to bring down the veil'. Because in the end we're the special snowflake and they're stealing our thunder, maybe? I love it to be honest - the more independent they are, the more 'real' they feel to me, but I get why it can be aggravating  to some folks 

[Fredward]

Losing the arm is like the least offensive thing Solas does/says during that exchange.

 

If Solas wants redemption he should kill himself and get it over with. I can't even really sympathize with him, what he's planning is so deplorable and egotistic it blocks out the 'aww shame, he's lonely and sad' bit. The only way I can get even vaguely behind what he's doing is if there's an extra reason, which is hinted at. But from this PoV? He's not a nice person. His actions aren't justifiable. They aren't okay.

 

EDIT:

 

The extra reason being something that really is good/necessary for everyone and everything everywhere. Like the Blight can only be eradicated by destroying the Veil or something.

Modifié par Fredward, 01 octobre 2015 - 07:12 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Weekes did redemption-via-death with Mordin.  That's a plausible outcome for Solas.

[Uirebhiril]

I don't think redemption by death would be good enough, as it were. It would be an easy way out depending on the situation leading up to it. If it comes down to Solas nailing the back of his hand to his forehead as he sacrifices himself, it's going to feel very cheap. Because as of this moment, with the story we have, what is he being redeemed from? He's made a decision and that decision can still change. He hasn't yet dropped the Veil. If he does that and the only way to save the world is by him dying, ehhh. Not particularly compelling, and it wouldn't redeem Solas in my eyes. It would be fixing a wrong, but how did he learn and grow and improve from the situation? What did he really do to help? Mordin's arc came to an end after he had already gone through the thought process that led him to sacrifice himself for what he believed in. Unless Solas follows a similar route, him just dying would make me throw up my hands.

 

This may be more ramble then sensible.

[Uirebhiril]

The extra reason being something that really is good/necessary for everyone and everything everywhere. Like the Blight can only be eradicated by destroying the Veil or something.

 

One thought I've had is what if the magic is fading from the world due to the Veil and will eventually cause everything to fail and disappear or be destroyed like the crossroads were? The only thing that makes me wonder if it could be something like that is how Solas was willing to give up his duty just to be with a romanced Lavellan, but then there's nothing to say he wasn't planning to just be happy for once and die with the world anyway.

 

Thedas is in rough shape at this time, and that's not even counting the effects of the breach. I hope there is more behind all of that and we'll get to learn some of it in the next game.

[Abyss108]

Hmm, if I accidently murdered everyone I knew and broke the world, and the only people still around were missing some vital senses (aka were all blind and deaf), and were going to die anyway because they only lived for a year, whilst my people lived forever, I'd consider doing the same thing as Solas.

 

It's completely wrong, and I'm not defending it... Just saying I'd definitely consider it...

[NKnight7]

I decided to buy Trespasser because I wanted answers about the post-credit scene. I DIDN'T WANT A THOUSAND MORE QUESTIONS!!

 

F****** SOLAS! I thought we were bros! We laughed at Vivs expense together, we said f*** off to the Gray Wardens together, we looked down on the dalish together, sure I skipped through your dialogues, but I thought to ask. It's the thought that counts!

 

And now you want to destroy the world, with me in it presumably, that hurts man. 

And we had all these questions to ask him but none of the questions I wanted to ask.

Why are you being such an psychopath?

Why are you such a racist?

Why are the ancient elves so great? They seem like d***s to me.

 

GOD I WANTED TO KICK YOUR BALD A**! 

Effing I'm not a god but I'm going to decide the fate of this world cuz I can

Bring the Veil down! I JUST SPENT A GAME FIXING THAT SHITE!

 

 

Now for my next rant. Disclaimer: Mildly offensive

 

AWMYGAWDMYHANDMYF******ARM!!!!!

My bada** effing power fantasy Inquisitor now has a stump where and arm should be!

WHAT DA FUQ!?

I HATE AMPUTATION!

That shite is freaky. My crazy a** father made me volunteer at a VA hospital when I was a lad. You don't get over that crap, I couldn't even effing look at my once bad** effing power fantasy Inquisitor.

 

WHO THE FUQ TOOK MY ARM OFF CUZ IT WAS NOT ME!!??

 

EFFING SOLAS!?!? 

I hate you so much right now

And yeah he saved my life but if weren't for him I never would of even had that effing green fade power!!!

MY F****** ARM!!

 

I WANT TO KILL THAT BAST*RD!

TAKES MY LOOT, TAKES MY ARM, AND MAKES ME LOOK LIKE A DUMBA**

 

Like yeah the guy about to destroy the whole f****** world was my friend, yeah he's probably worst than Coryphwhatever. 

He doesn't think so though, no mister and high mighty think he's some Jesus effing Christ sent down to save the elves!!!!

And you know, kill other people while he's at it!!

HE'S LIKE A HITLER AND I LIKED HIM!!

 

THIS DLC!! It has me so worked up!!

 

AND I WANT TO HUNT HIM DOWN AND BEAT HIM TO A BLOODY STREAK BUT I CAN'T STAND TO EVEN LOOK AT MY INQUISITOR ANYMORE!

 

[Ardent Blossom]

Call him crazy, call him stupid, but calling him flat out evil would mean completely ignoring every Fen'Harel codex and everything Solas ever said and did. Weekes writes grey antagonists, and that's definitely what Solas is. The guy needs a therapist. 

 

As far as him taking your arm...it was going to kill you! That's like complaining that the people at the hospital removed your gangrene leg. Amputation happens everyday. Amputees are people too not ghouls or Martians, get over it. Not only that, amputees can kick arse.

 

Jus' sayin'. Getting all pissed off at Solas and wanting to crush his big eggy head is a bit of a knee jerk reaction. A goodie two shoes Inky would want to find a way to help the ancient elves that are trapped anyway. They are people too after all. 

[Gervaise]

I think the problem is that he doesn't give you a good enough reason why he is going to destroy your world.    Those ancient elves in the Temple of Mythal were the first we've been presented with in 3 games.   There weren't that many of them but they seemed to be doing okay when not attacking the invaders.   So now they are mortal instead of immortal?   So do what everyone else does in order for the species to survive. 

 

My first reaction when the options over how I'm going to proceed viz a viz Solas came up on screen was pretty much "you have got to be kidding me?".    He's just admitted he was responsible for just about everything bad that has happened to the elves, plus everything that we have just put right and now wants to commit mass genocide on the world, killing every living creature, simply for the sake of restoring what he claims was the reason he raised the Veil in the first place, because "I have plans."   And one of the options is "Redeem Solas".    How exactly and why?   I feel he's holding out the idea I might be able to persuade him as yet more false hope, like giving us those years of peace without the Qun before he pushes the button.    Where would I begin?    He's already admitted I've changed his viewpoint about us being people and yet he's still going to kill everyone.    I'll give changing his mind a shot but I object to the words being put in my mouth at the end about trying to save our friend.   He's not my friend any more and it would seem he never was one.   This is not about saving or redeeming him (which isn't a common notion in Thedas so don't know why it suddenly has become one) but about saving the world.

 

Yet I've this nasty suspicion that if I choose the opposite, which is really how I feel, that is stop Solas by any means possible (which includes changing his mind), even if it does mean killing him, that somehow I am going to be portrayed in the future as the bad guy and no better than Solas himself and they'll force me to kill lots of elves, who he's persuaded to join him, poor suckers, to make me feel even worse.   So either way a lot of people are going to die.   

 

It is not a matter of choice: I simply want to stop him.     

[berelinde]

This may not be the best time to bring it up, but I'm not sure bringing the ancient elves back is a great idea. Not all of them at once, certainly. These elves have been asleep for a thousand years or more, or physically trapped in some portion of the Fade. They're going to be disoriented when they wake up, not unlike Corypheus or Solas himself. Like newly-awakened Tranquil, they may be vulnerable to possession or worse until they get their bearings. Ideally, whoever's in charge of the alarm clock might do it in stages, a few at a time, and give them a chance to get acclimated before waking up the next group. This might also be a good way to test what happens if the Veil is dismantled: do it in stages and leave a fallback plan in place in case all that falls through is demons.

 

The other question would be whether these ancient elves could be awakened without killing off everyone else. I don't imagine too many people would be willing to trade Thedas's entire population of elves, dwarves, qunari, and humans for a few groggy elven sentinels.

[kimgoold]

I'll say it again. This is one of the best villains in DA!, he is so smug you want to punch him half the time and the other he's so sympathetic you want to hug him. But he is seriously messed up, Flemythal whatever she was, at least still saw the modern elves as people! perhaps living thru the modern world along with them helped?? But Solas, he hid, he kept himself safe while everyone else had to cope with the consequences of his actions.. This makes it harder to justify trying to save his character for me. 

 

edit: On the issue of the arm, are some of you seriously saying a person who can turn others to stone with his EYES couldn't save the arm? I honestly believe he did that to remove a rival he knew could impede his goal.

 

And yes my goody two-shoes inquisitor will try to save that bald head-case and the ancient elves because they are people and innocent lives matter.