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Qunari, Eluvians and Magic: A Contradiction


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#1
ModernAcademic

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After playing Trespasser, I've been trying to wrap my head around a central issue, but I'm failing miserably. If anyone can help clarify this, I'm grateful.

 

 

 

In Trespasser, we learn the Divasala - or whatever her designation is, since Qunari don't have names - has been spying on the Inquisition and learned about Solas/Fen'Harel's overwhelming influence over it. She then considers his actions a threat and decides to take action against him. And the unsuspecting Inquisitor.

 

If you've paid attention to Codexes in Halamshiral/The winter Palace, you'll notice that during the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts mission there's a letter from Gaspard (I think) which mentions a weapon Briala has in her power. The codex isn't clear as to the nature of such weapon and the player is left to wonder just what the hell is that Codex referring to.

 

Later, in Trespasser, we learn that weapon was an Eluvian, found in the Winter Palace. We know it wasn't Morrigan's eluvian because that mirror was - or still is - in Skyhold.

 

Now here's the problem: the Qunari are prejudiced toward magic, we all know that. Their attitude is to curb any attempt to use magic or, if they can't control it, to destroy it. They want to stop Solas and "save" the South from his influence - aka convert everyone to the Qun with the excuse of salvation from the perdition brought by the abuse of magic.

 

And just how do they do that?

 

By using the same kind of magic they barely understand and comdemn. By using Eluvians to travel to the Crossroads - sort like a part of the Fade, a place they should NEVER want to go into - and then all over Thedas.

 

 

 

From the number of broken Eluvians we find in the Qunari stronghold, we can deduce they have been trying to activate one for many years. So the Qunari have been dabbing with magic they don't understand in order to stop an enemy that is known to come from the same people that created these dangerous artifacts in the first place. How does that work? It's like being a xenophobe, but inviting foreign people to come live in your house.

 

We can deduce they didn't find the Eluvians per chance. Something tells me - and I might be horribly wrong about this - that Solas had some subtle role in making sure the Divasala found the Eluvians. The Qunari supposedly know nothing of ancient elven History. They live in a reclusive country in the far north. How would they have even heard of Eluvians, much less figured out how do they work, when not even our mages from the Circle were able to do so? There are a lot of plot holes there.

 

The logical choice the Divasala would take would be to destroy the Eluvians once she learned they lead to the Fade. Remember, that's where evil demons whisper dangerous, tempting ideas to the Saarebas. There's no way a troop of Qunari warriors would accept to walk in the Fade having that kind of religion. Not when we see a troop choose to immediately attack Anders in DA2 when they learn he's an uncollared mage. To expect the Divasala to cooly consider reactivating an Eluvian, a magical object that leads to the realm of demons and to actually give some thought about using it as a resource in war is tremendously problematic, if not far-fetched.

 

One possible way out of this logical conundrum is the fact that the Qunari have a no-waste philosophy. If we apply that philosophy to magic, we see how it takes shape: the Qunari cut the tongue of Saarebas and chain them. So they are against magic because they find it dangerous, but use it nonetheless? Sounds a bit contradictory to me. It's like a country that condemns homicide, but has death penalty.

 

I'd like to read my fellow forumites' opinions on this. Maybe you'll help me figure out a possible explanation to the Qunari using ancient magical objects without reservation or fear. And if you have any theories, feel free to bring them to discussion.


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#2
leaguer of one

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Them not liking magic does not mean they won't use it. It only means they do what they must to understand, control and restrict it. The one thing the qun thinks is a sin is ignorance.

 

Remember, they were also planning to use magic to strengthen the veil.


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#3
The Baconer

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They're Qunari.

 

They say the thing but then they do the other thing. Since 2009.


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#4
ModernAcademic

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Them not liking magic does not mean they won't use it. It only means they do what they must to understand, control and restrict it. The one thing the qun thinks is a sin is ignorance.

 

Remember, they were also planning to use magic to strengthen the veil.

 

Yyyyyyyep, and that's what I'm having a serious problem to understand.

 

The Qunari really dislike magic. So to see them using the Eluvians indiscriminately, after all the abundant evidence in Origins and DA 2 that they don't think much about it, they just destroy or kill any form of magic that isn't Saarebas, is giving me a massive headache.

 

Unless...they are a deeply hypocritical people who actually know a lot about magic, and do extensive magical research, but preach hate and fear toward mages to the common Qunari?

 

Really, this is literally making it impossible for me to make sense of all that happened in trespasser. Seriously.

 

*waving flag of HELP*



#5
ModernAcademic

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They're Qunari.

 

They say the thing but then they do the other thing. Since 2009.

 

Yeah, that's the only explanation that is making any sense to me so far. I'm serious.

 

Because the alternative would be for me to conclude the developers just didn't think about how Qunari entering Eluvians would be a major contradiction with all we know about them, but decided to release the DLC without fixing this issue. And I really don't want to start thinking along those lines, because, well...



#6
Erstus

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Not saying it's aliens, but.....

Its aliens
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#7
The Baconer

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Because the alternative would be for me to conclude the developers just didn't think about how Qunari entering Eluvians would be a major contradiction with all we know about them, but decided to release the DLC without fixing this issue. And I really don't want to start thinking along those lines, because, well...

 

I'm sure they knew exactly what Trespasser would be hinting at regarding Qunari society and the ideology itself.

 

From my perspective, the problem is how they can be simultaneously more fractured than let on, yet also be better than anyone else at whatever Bioware has them do.


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#8
myahele

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The Qunari have too many exceptions to the rule. I would not take whatever they say seriously anymore


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#9
leaguer of one

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Yyyyyyyep, and that's what I'm having a serious problem to understand.

 

The Qunari really dislike magic. So to see them using the Eluvians indiscriminately, after all the abundant evidence in Origins and DA 2 that they don't think much about it, they just destroy or kill any form of magic that isn't Saarebas, is giving me a massive headache.

 

Unless...they are a deeply hypocritical people who actually know a lot about magic, and do extensive magical research, but preach hate and fear toward mages to the common Qunari?

 

Really, this is literally making it impossible for me to make sense of all that happened in trespasser. Seriously.

 

*waving flag of HELP*

Just not that. they destroy most of those mirrors. It's pretty clear that once they are done they are going to destroy them all.



#10
MrMrPendragon

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Maybe whoever made that little Tome of Koslun (Ashkaari Koslun) was there during Tevinter's abuse of magic. He grew to hate magic and preached that in his tome.

 

The Qunari like to control everything. It's like any part of their life can't be left uncontrolled, and magic is inherently unpredictable and therefore uncontrollable in most cases, which is why they destory it.

 

This type of magic however is hard to study, because there are no records of it, nor are there any individuals (besides Solas and Flemeth) that practice ancient elven magic. Learning about it is just their way of finding out how to control or destroy ancient elven magic. If they had found a way to strengthen the Veil with the tech they have, I'm sure they would've used it. But no, their only option was to fight fire with fire - or I guess magic with magic.

 

 

Oh and that little codex line where it says Briala is wielding some sort of power - Gaspard meant that Briala has a lot of eluvians at her disposal. You would only know this if you read the novel "The Masked Empire". The novel contains the stories of Gaspard, Briala, Celene, Imshael (the demon in Emprise Du Lion) and Michel (the chevalier in the same area). It narrates how the civil war started and how Briala ended up with a lot of eluvians at her disposal.

 

Oh and it's Viddasala.


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#11
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The Viddasala was a possible exception. She was not doing anything by the Qun's orders and if you ally with them they tell you they are not involved. This seems strictly connected to the Kirkwall incident and she also has the Tome of Koslun that the Arishok wanted in DA2. She also is feeding lyrium to a Saarebas. She seems to have been breaking many rules.


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#12
ModernAcademic

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The Viddasala was a possible exception. She was not doing anything by the Qun's orders and if you ally with them they tell you they are not involved. This seems strictly connected to the Kirkwall incident and she also has the Tome of Koslun that the Arishok wanted in DA2. She also is feeding lyrium to a Saarebas. She seems to have been breaking many rules.

 

Yeah, she completely went rogue. She interpreted the Demands of the Qun in her own, particular way.

Which should earn her punishment should she have somehow returned alive to Par Vollen, since she disregarded pretty much every fundamental principle of the Qun regarding magic. Or at least that's what I like to believe.

 

The alternative would be as The Baconer said, and I hypothesized in the first post: that the Qun is not a cohesive philosophy as the Qunari like to portray.



#13
Daerog

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We learn in The Masked Empire that Briala's secret weapon was the Eluvian system. Even if one didn't read it, it was all over the wiki and forums before DA:I even released.

 

The Qunari want everything brought under the Qun. All for the Qun. Magic can and will serve the Qun. They distrust the chaos that magic can make, so if they are not able to control it, they will limit or destroy it, because they are all for Order. The Eluvians can also serve the Qun, but only if the Qunari control the system. So, they try to use and control the Eluvians.

 

The higher ups of the Qunari will bend rules to better serve the Qun. Tallis talks about this if I remember correctly. The Qunari are not robots that follow a strict program, even if they come across like that. Well... the Qun is strict, but... well, they can bend stuff to better serve the Qun. For the QUN!

 

The qunari use magic, they don't try to wipe out all magic if it can serve the Qun. They even push Saarebas to be the best at wielding magic so they can be the best magic tools for the Qunari. If one is forced to be born a mage, then they shall serve the Qun to the best of their ability, and that includes magic.

 

They don't place their trust in magic like the bas do, as it can be chaotic and dangerous, but they know that magic is just another part of the world.


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#14
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Yeah, she completely went rogue. She interpreted the Demands of the Qun in her own, particular way.

Which should earn her punishment should she have somehow returned alive to Par Vollen, since she disregarded pretty much every fundamental principle of the Qun regarding magic. Or at least that's what I like to believe.

 

The alternative would be as The Baconer said, and I hypothesized in the first post: that the Qun is not a cohesive philosophy as the Qunari like to portray.

 

It was like the Arishok all over again! He had no right to do what he did in Kirkwall. Varric tells us as much in DAI.

 

I don't trust the Qun at all. I don't ally with them either. I always feel that if they decide the alliance if over, that's it and no Solas will come and save the day next time.

 

Also Solas not only petrified her, but the Tome so I hope it was only just a copy.


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#15
leaguer of one

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Yeah, she completely went rogue. She interpreted the Demands of the Qun in her own, particular way.

Which should earn her punishment should she have somehow returned alive to Par Vollen, since she disregarded pretty much every fundamental principle of the Qun regarding magic. Or at least that's what I like to believe.

 

The alternative would be as The Baconer said, and I hypothesized in the first post: that the Qun is not a cohesive philosophy as the Qunari like to portray.

 

Go to 7:51.

 

 

Comes full circle , doesn't it.


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#16
Daerog

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I'm starting to view the Ben-Hassrath like the Inquisition in Warhammer 40k.

 

There are two schools of thought in the Inquisition, the puritans and the radicals. The puritans believe in a very strict way of going about things, but won't go "outside the box" to see a mission done, they are very strict in their doctrine and faith in the Imperial cult. The radicals are more "the end justifies the means," and if that means wielding a warp tainted blade to fight against Chaos, so be it. Both are all for the Imperium of Man and the God-Emperor, but there are those that are strict adherents and those who are willing to bend some rules to better fulfill their duty.

 

At least, that is what I understand from Warhammer 40k, I've only played the computer games, was interested in the lore and scoured the internet, wikis, and youtube for lore.



#17
X Equestris

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The Viddasala was a possible exception. She was not doing anything by the Qun's orders and if you ally with them they tell you they are not involved. This seems strictly connected to the Kirkwall incident and she also has the Tome of Koslun that the Arishok wanted in DA2. She also is feeding lyrium to a Saarebas. She seems to have been breaking many rules.


They tell you they're not involved even if you don't ally with them. It seems like a plausible deniability thing to me. If she fails, she gets disavowed, and if she succeeds the Qunari invade a leaderless south. This seems likely considering what the Qunari always do in the epilogue: refocus their efforts on their war with Tevinter.

#18
The Baconer

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The qunari use magic, they don't try to wipe out all magic if it can serve the Qun. They even push Saarebas to be the best at wielding magic so they can be the best magic tools for the Qunari. If one is forced to be born a mage, then they shall serve the Qun to the best of their ability, and that includes magic.

 

That didn't sense though (talking about Trespasser "revelations" regarding the Saarebas).

 

They're hedge mages. They're not trained, they're just pointed in the direction of the enemy. Do they just horsewhip them into being the most powerful? I suppose it could be just the unregulated channeling of pure destructive power, unfiltered by any training or knowledge of the dangers in doing so. Yet, that would reasonably make Saarebas drastically more dangerous and volatile than any conventionally-trained mage, which is the opposite of what they would want. This is the result I'm betting on, because you can't have it both ways without just edging into Sue Race territory.

 

 

I'm starting to view the Ben-Hassrath like the Inquisition in Warhammer 40k.

 

That is interesting, as I myself would liken the various leaders of each governmental faction to rogue traders, in the event that the Qunari were truly ignorant of the Viddasala's actions.

 

It's like a bunch of roving conquistadores left to their own devices, with no rule or administration by committee. Seems rather uncharacteristically inane for the Qunari, and particularly dangerous for everyone else.


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#19
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They tell you they're not involved even if you don't ally with them. It seems like a plausible deniability thing to me. If she fails, she gets disavowed, and if she succeeds the Qunari invade a leaderless south. This seems likely considering what the Qunari always do in the epilogue: refocus their efforts on their war with Tevinter.

 

Exactly what I thought when I read that. Josie clearly implies we will go to war with them if they are behind it, so they backed away and covered it up in denial, leaving her to her own fate at Solas' hands. And Solas said they would focus on Tevinter again now that the Dragon's Breath plan was ruined. I still think she was giving herself her own orders though and wasn't completely going with what she was told. She took matters into her own hands.



#20
Daerog

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That didn't sense though (talking about Trespasser "revelations" regarding the Saarebas).

 

They're hedge mages. They're not trained, they're just pointed in the direction of the enemy. Do they just horsewhip them into being the most powerful? I suppose it could be just the unregulated channeling of pure destructive power, unfiltered by any training or knowledge of the dangers in doing so. Yet, that would reasonably make Saarebas drastically more dangerous and volatile than any conventionally-trained mage, which is the opposite of what they would want. This is the result I'm betting on, because you can't have it both ways without just edging into Sue Race territory.

 

 

 

Ya, the Saarebas are very destructive with wild magic. This is what the multiplayer Saarebas hints at. This is why the saarebas typically have a handler at all times... except for the one in multiplayer for some reason...

 

I think it is a silly notion to want the saarebas to use their magic to its fullest to best serve the Qun, when there is no research into the arts of magic. It is just a beast throwing all its weight into something rather than using any pacing or finesse.

 

They don't limit the magic of the saarebas, because when they want to unleash a saarebas on an enemy, that saarebas  can and will just unload on the enemies of the Qun.

 

 

 

Just a side note, I thought the children's story about the saarebas that the Qunari tell those who are found to have magic was kinda cool... from a Qunari perspective... (found in WoT Vol 2)



#21
ModernAcademic

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That didn't sense though (talking about Trespasser "revelations" regarding the Saarebas).

 

They're hedge mages. They're not trained, they're just pointed in the direction of the enemy. Do they just horsewhip them into being the most powerful? I suppose it could be just the unregulated channeling of pure destructive power, unfiltered by any training or knowledge of the dangers in doing so. Yet, that would reasonably make Saarebas drastically more dangerous and volatile than any conventionally-trained mage, which is the opposite of what they would want. This is the result I'm betting on, because you can't have it both ways without just edging into Sue Race territory.

 

 

 

That is interesting, as I myself would liken the various leaders of each governmental faction to rogue traders, in the event that the Qunari were truly ignorant of the Viddasala's actions.

 

It's like a bunch of roving conquistadores left to their own devices, with no rule or administration by committee. Seems rather uncharacteristically inane for the Qunari, and particularly dangerous for everyone else.

 

THIS

 

For such a strongly centralised, cohesive philosophy, with very clear principles on practically everything, the Qun is being interpreted with A LOT of liberty by agents like Vidassala.

 

That's the heart of the problem.



#22
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THIS

 

For such a strongly centralised, cohesive philosophy, with very clear principles on practically everything, the Qun is being interpreted with A LOT of liberty by agents like Vidassala.

 

That's the heart of the problem.

 

You know how we spent 3 games siding with the Mages or Templars? I suspect we will now be doing the same with the Qunari or Tevinter.



#23
The Baconer

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Ya, the Saarebas are very destructive with wild magic. This is what the multiplayer Saarebas hints at. This is why the saarebas typically have a handler at all times... except for the one in multiplayer for some reason...

 

Well, I meant it in the sense that they should be turning Abomination with significantly more frequency than your regular trained mage, or accidentally sundering the Veil and bringing in demons (this did actually happen in the fight with Saarath).



#24
Daerog

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THIS

 

For such a strongly centralised, cohesive philosophy, with very clear principles on practically everything, the Qun is being interpreted with A LOT of liberty by agents like Vidassala.

 

That's the heart of the problem.

 

Well, to be fair, it is a philosophy developed somewhere else and they are trying to adapt it to a new world (Thedas) filled with different cultures and challenges.

 

We don't know how it is run in their capital and core lands.

 

Also, while the military branch is given certain directives and the civil branch is given certain directives, I thought only the priesthood was meant to interpret the Qun... and doesn't the Ben-Hassrath fall under the priesthood's banner?

 

The Arishok is not a teacher of the Qun, he says so himself, and so only the parts that concern the military are his concern. The Qunari are a very specialized people, and most only follow what concerns their duty. Only the priesthood concerns themselves with the whole thing.

 

 

I could be wrong.



#25
Daerog

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Well, I meant it in the sense that they should be turning Abomination with significantly more frequency than your regular trained mage, or accidentally sundering the Veil and bringing in demons (this did actually happen in the fight with Saarath).

 

That children's tale talks about that.

 

A handler is disabled by a demon, and the handler then witnesses the demon try to tempt the saarebas to "open up" (since a possession has to be allowed) and then the saarebas and demon go back and forth, with the demon giving promises, and the saarebas countering every promise with some wisdom of the Qun and why saarebas have their mouths sewn, masks on, hands tied, etc.

 

The saarebas rebuffs all attempts of the demon, and then the demon leaves, and the saarebas' wisdom and loyalty to the Qun humbles the handler.

 

It was a nice little tale that says how Qunari view the saarebas.

 

Edit: Saarath was just a crazy experiment that I doubt was meant to go that far. I don't think the Qunari normally feed saarebas lyrium. Saarath was an experiment to see if such a thing could serve the Qun... if they leadership saw the results, they would probably say "Nope!"