89 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

That children's tale talks about that.

 

A handler is disabled by a demon, and the handler then witnesses the demon try to tempt the saarebas to "open up" (since a possession has to be allowed) and then the saarebas and demon go back and forth, with the demon giving promises, and the saarebas countering every promise with some wisdom of the Qun and why saarebas have their mouths sewn, masks on, hands tied, etc.

 

The saarebas rebuffs all attempts of the demon, and then the demon leaves, and the saarebas' wisdom and loyalty to the Qun humbles the handler.

 

It was a nice little tale that says how Qunari view the saarebas.

 

Edit: Saarath was just a crazy experiment that I doubt was meant to go that far. I don't think the Qunari normally feed saarebas lyrium. Saarath was an experiment to see if such a thing could serve the Qun... if they leadership saw the results, they would probably say "Nope!"

 

Yes, I am aware of the tale. It is disturbing in its own right (such as the verses of Qun being stitched on the inside of the Saarebas' mask), but it's just that: a children's tale. Just as you wouldn't look to Goldilocks for how to survive an encounter with a real bear, you wouldn't look through this for any actual knowledge in defending oneself from the machinations of demons.

[Daerog]

Yes, I am aware of the tale. It is disturbing in its own right (such as the verses of Qun being stitched on the inside of the Saarebas' mask), but it's just that: a children's tale. Just as you wouldn't look to Goldilocks for how to survive an encounter with a real bear, you wouldn't look through this for any actual knowledge in defending oneself from the machinations of demons.

 

The children's tale is used to get saarebas to understand the need for such measurements.

 

I agree the measurements are quite scary, but they must be effective if it can keep a qunari from becoming an abomination without the training the Circle provides.

 

The Qunari train the saarebas to be the most devout. The most devout of the most devout. Their minds are trained to only focus on the Qun and trust completely in the Qun. This prevents demons from possessing them, since someone needs to "open the door" for a demon, and many times we see mages possessed out of greed or survival. The saarebas is for the Qun, for the Qunari, and not for the self, so there is not much for the demon to tempt.

 

We have only seen one saarebas that was anti-Qun, and that was from Tallis' introduction story videos. The other saarebas were the most devout because their entire lives are surrounded by it, unlike those in the civil and military branches that are taught worldly things. The saarebas only knows the Qun.

 

(This is just an assumption, I don't look at Qunari lore as much as other lore.)

[Mr.House]

If the qun demands change, they will change and that's what happened. This idea relied on something they don't like but the qun demanded it so they did it. This was already something established by the qunari, and no, the Viddasala was not rouge, if she was her fortress would have been stormed by the qunari, the qunari would not have invaded Tevitner in such a force (which shows that the qunari military had their soldiers at the ready if it succeed) and Hissrad betrays you.

 

It was the same when they disavowed the Arishok, WHEN HE FAILED. They would not have cared if he had succeed, same with the Vidasala.

[The Baconer]

The children's tale is used to get saarebas to understand the need for such measurements.

 

I agree the measurements are quite scary, but they must be effective if it can keep a qunari from becoming an abomination without the training the Circle provides.

 

The Qunari train the saarebas to be the most devout. The most devout of the most devout. Their minds are trained to only focus on the Qun and trust completely in the Qun. This prevents demons from possessing them, since someone needs to "open the door" for a demon, and many times we see mages possessed out of greed or survival. The saarebas is for the Qun, for the Qunari, and not for the self, so there is not much for the demon to tempt.

 

We have only seen one saarebas that was anti-Qun, and that was from Tallis' introduction story videos. The other saarebas were the most devout because their entire lives are surrounded by it, unlike those in the civil and military branches that are taught worldly things. The saarebas only knows the Qun.

 

(This is just an assumption, I don't look at Qunari lore as much as other lore.)

 

That would only be of great use against the lesser categories of demon who try to brute-force their way into a mage's body. Even then, if Saarebas are just instructed to just let loose with 100% in every engagement then that tactic will lose effectiveness as fatigue sets in.

 

For the demons with a sense of tact and trickery, such single-minded fervor can become their greatest tool in possessing the mage.

[Daerog]

That would only be of great use against the lesser categories of demon who try to brute-force their way into a mage's body. Even then, if Saarebas are just instructed to just let loose with 100% in every engagement then that tactic will lose effectiveness as fatigue sets in.

 

For the demons with a sense of tact and trickery, such single-minded fervor can become their greatest tool in possessing the mage.

 

Ya, but the saarebas is raised to be narrow minded and completely loyal to the Qun. If a demon whispers to the saarebas, the saarebas knows to ignore all except their handler. Their will is not their own, it belongs to the handler. They are entirely submissive to the Qun and the handler, as the story tells.

 

Now, a demon may try to imitate the handler... but if what the handler says goes outside the Qun, then the saarebas might just kill themselves because they can't fulfill the demands of the Qun fully or something. I'm just guessing this part, it's just an interpretation of the info provided so far.

 

The handler is supposed to have those magic rods as well, to disable the saarebas and kill the saarebas if necessary.

 

I'm sure issues may arise, just as it does with all cultures with mages, but that utter devotion and control collar probably makes it a rarer occurrence than in the south.

 

If the saarebas notices that he/she is exhausted and open to attack from demons, they probably just stop doing anything besides breathing until they can recover and follow commands... maybe take a nap...

 

 

(I'm just throwing out ideas to see if we can better flesh out this idea of the saarebas, not actually disagreeing with your posts)

[ModernAcademic]

If the qun demands change, they will change and that's what happened. This idea relied on something they don't like but the qun demanded it so they did it. This was already something established by the qunari, and no, the Viddasala was not rouge, if she was her fortress would have been stormed by the qunari, the qunari would not have invaded Tevitner in such a force (which shows that the qunari military had their soldiers at the ready if it succeed) and Hissrad betrays you.

 

It was the same when they disavowed the Arishok, WHEN HE FAILED. They would not have cared if he had succeed, same with the Vidasala.

 

But to change from a philosophy that abhors incomprehensible magic to one that tolerates and even makes use of unknown, ancient, potentially dangerous magical artifacts that belonged to powerful, destructive mages of the past?

 

I understand their need to change in order to cope with the threat of Fen'Harel, but to simply throw one of their principles out of the window is just...too radical for the Qun.

 

And the Qun is anything but radical...

 

 

 

Well, I guess something BIG must've happened to provoke such a change. The events in Kirkwall, the Breach in the sky, the rise of Fen'Harel...all this added to something else - the missing piece of the puzzle - would explain this huge change, which doesn't really feel like a change; more like a revolution in their mentality.

[The Baconer]

Ya, but the saarebas is raised to be narrow minded and completely loyal to the Qun. If a demon whispers to the saarebas, the saarebas knows to ignore all except their handler. Their will is not their own, it belongs to the handler. They are entirely submissive to the Qun and the handler, as the story tells.

 

Now, a demon may try to imitate the handler... but if what the handler says goes outside the Qun, then the saarebas might just kill themselves because they can't fulfill the demands of the Qun fully or something. I'm just guessing this part, it's just an interpretation of the info provided so far.

 

Demons can read your thoughts, play upon your desires, nurture doubts, even disguise themselves as your own dreams and memories. The only knowledge of demons that the Saarebas will possess are their own limited experiences, and whatever unfounded presumptions the Qun drills into them.

 

A strong, singular desire can only make things easier, as one only need give them what they want: the means to better serve the demands of the Qun.

[leaguer of one]

The children's tale is used to get saarebas to understand the need for such measurements.

 

I agree the measurements are quite scary, but they must be effective if it can keep a qunari from becoming an abomination without the training the Circle provides.

 

The Qunari train the saarebas to be the most devout. The most devout of the most devout. Their minds are trained to only focus on the Qun and trust completely in the Qun. This prevents demons from possessing them, since someone needs to "open the door" for a demon, and many times we see mages possessed out of greed or survival. The saarebas is for the Qun, for the Qunari, and not for the self, so there is not much for the demon to tempt.

 

We have only seen one saarebas that was anti-Qun, and that was from Tallis' introduction story videos. The other saarebas were the most devout because their entire lives are surrounded by it, unlike those in the civil and military branches that are taught worldly things. The saarebas only knows the Qun.

 

(This is just an assumption, I don't look at Qunari lore as much as other lore.)

You're spot on.

 

*point to Saarath.

[SwobyJ]

know how we spent 3 games siding with the Mages or Templars? I suspect we will now be doing the same with the Qunari or Tevinter.

 

Except this time both will be experimenting with their magic in the meantime. The next level.

 

Thus Tevinter with the time magic.

 

And Qunari with the rift magic. (Sorry, I haven't played the DLC myself; whatever green magic the Qunari used in Trespasser)

[Mr.House]

But to change from a philosophy that abhors incomprehensible magic to one that tolerates and even makes use of unknown, ancient, potentially dangerous magical artifacts that belonged to powerful, destructive mages of the past?

 

I understand their need to change in order to cope with the threat of Fen'Harel, but to simply throw one of their principles out of the window is just...too radical for the Qun.

 

And the Qun is anything but radical...

 

 

 

Well, I guess something BIG must've happened to provoke such a change. The events in Kirkwall, the Breach in the sky, the rise of Fen'Harel...all this added to something else - the missing piece of the puzzle - would explain this huge change, which doesn't really feel like a change; more like a revolution in their mentality.

That was one branch of the qunari, a branch that was also dedicated to magic.

[leaguer of one]

Except this time both will be experimenting with their magic in the meantime. The next level.

 

Thus Tevinter with the time magic.

 

And Qunari with the rift magic. (Sorry, I haven't played the DLC myself; whatever green magic the Qunari used in Trespasser)

It's rift...It soooo rift magic.

[SwobyJ]

But to change from a philosophy that abhors incomprehensible magic to one that tolerates and even makes use of unknown, ancient, potentially dangerous magical artifacts that belonged to powerful, destructive mages of the past?

 

I understand their need to change in order to cope with the threat of Fen'Harel, but to simply throw one of their principles out of the window is just...too radical for the Qun.

 

And the Qun is anything but radical...

 

 

 

Well, I guess something BIG must've happened to provoke such a change. The events in Kirkwall, the Breach in the sky, the rise of Fen'Harel...all this added to something else - the missing piece of the puzzle - would explain this huge change, which doesn't really feel like a change; more like a revolution in their mentality.

 

The Qunari do not abhor magic.

[SwobyJ]

That was one branch of the qunari, a branch that was also dedicated to magic.

 

Exactly.

 

This was a specialized situation and part of an elaboration on what the Qunari are. A journey to get there to when a full game finally focuses on them.

[SwobyJ]

Yep! Looks like we'll be up to our eyeballs in mages! And I have no idea what it was, but I do know I was pulled into it like the Pull of the Abyss.

 

I don't think the next game will have a big green cover, but I'm sure we haven't seen the last of green themed magic. Less a single breach and probably more like an (narrative) atmosphere with it spread out. And like I said, both Tevinter and Qunari in their own ways, and well, Solas...

 

But I also see red and blue being advanced significantly, and I personally want the purple (necro) to be a big deal (even a damn large Nevarra DLC!), and if yellow (dream fade?) and cyan (haven't really seen it I think, but maybe? looks like it'd be the next reveal of the Fade rainbow haha) can be things then Bioware can go for it.

[The Baconer]

The Qunari do not abhor magic.

They shouldnt, at least technically. But that is how it tends to work out in practice.

[SwobyJ]

I'm strongly seeing blood magic as the main source. Perhaps even we will get to use it again too and learn a proper way to use it as the tool it was meant to be and not abuse it like the Southern Mages did. Based on Dorian's tales, it's as common as trees.

 

Main source? Well maybe at the very beginning of a long chain of things.

 

Bit off topic but I wondered of all of the Dragon Age universe is but a construct born from one person's 'blood magic' (or what would have qualified as that) haha. The 'Maker'. Just me thinking about broad themes though, not specific lore.

 

But anyway yeah I think DA4 may bring back blood magic in a huge way (which may explain Bioware's 'meh' about it being a thing for DAI).

 

Blood magic may always be an 'abuse', but I think it may also, generally, be part of the reality that sometimes darkly necessary things are, well, necessary. And to master this element of necessity can be useful and even the thing everyone needs to be saved when pushed back to the wall (like a mage cornered by Templars, in a way).

 

They shouldnt, at least technically. But that is how it tends to work out in practice.

 

Oh yeah, but that's like all of Thedas. The Chantry isn't supposed to abhor magic either.

[Daerog]

The Qunari abhor Chaos.
 
That doesn't necessarily mean magic, but a lot of magic, especially unknown magic, can create chaos. Magic can also server Order, but one shouldn't place trust in magic, only in the Qun.

Oh yeah, but that's like all of Thedas. The Chantry isn't supposed to abhor magic either.

This, too. The Chantry is also not supposed to abhor it, but people tend to oversimplify matters in order to make themselves feel like they fully grasp the lessons and are experts. Then they teach the oversimplified lesson as if that was all there was to it. Then blood is spilled somewhere.

[KumoriYami]

This was actually bothering me when the Trespasser DLC came out and when I found that the Qunari were using the eluvians. I think using those make more sense... Qun wise, since the eluvians themselves are a tool, but using lyrium on the Sarebas is just asking for trouble. The Qunari actually don't really know anything about mages using lyrium so the Vidasalla using it seems... odd. Researching magic itself with non-mages because of the eluvians and the 'agent of Fen'Harel' also seems logical, but there's only so much you can do when your beliefs call on you to protect the mages from themselves in the way they do.

 

Regarding the whole Dragon's Breath operation, it was definitely sanctioned by the Qunari and they even had a message prepared as lip service.

[DaryAlexV]

Bull once said something like this: "Ben-Hassrath use whatever opportunity to make things done". It is in qunari nature - use all possible resources. So..eluvians were a great resource to make that "ataashi's-breath" happen.

[Hydwn]

You can actually find a codex explaining just this, in the Crossroads library, written by the Viddasala:
 

This sheaf of notes is written mostly in Qunlat. But select paragraphs have been translated into the common tongue:

Those born outside the Qun will not comprehend the seriousness of using mages to help us. They believe the worst that can befall a mage is demon possession. They do not truly understand that the loss of mastery comes with a loss of the self. Those of the Qun since birth do not understand why we risk using saarebas. We have immersed them in a sea of magic until it seems impossible they could ever do anything but drown. It is right that we enlighten you so your purpose here is clear.

We have learned from this place that there lived an elven mage who saw a great wrong and sacrificed all to right it. This mage made the Veil, which protects us from the Fade. This Veil stripped power from his rulers, who had treated their people with such excess that it makes the southern kings and queens seem staid.
Thus does every action carry rightness and all paths converge.

In his greatest magic, the elven mage became an agent of peace through the Veil. In our willingness to brave this place, we may discover how the Veil can be strengthened through our own mages. For that, we risk our lives. The saarebas who have joined in this endeavor understand the dangers and have made their choice. Remember the words of Ashkaari Koslun:

Existence is a choice.
There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
Mastery of the self is mastery of the world.
Loss of the self is the source of suffering.
Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
It is in our own power to create the world, or destroy it.

For peace, we will endure any horror here. We will create a safer world, or destroy the old one.

 

[Dai Grepher]

After playing Trespasser, I've been trying to wrap my head around a central issue, but I'm failing miserably. If anyone can help clarify this, I'm grateful.

 

 

 

In Trespasser, we learn the Divasala - or whatever her designation is, since Qunari don't have names - has been spying on the Inquisition and learned about Solas/Fen'Harel's overwhelming influence over it. She then considers his actions a threat and decides to take action against him. And the unsuspecting Inquisitor.

 

If you've paid attention to Codexes in Halamshiral/The winter Palace, you'll notice that during the Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts mission there's a letter from Gaspard (I think) which mentions a weapon Briala has in her power. The codex isn't clear as to the nature of such weapon and the player is left to wonder just what the hell is that Codex referring to.

 

Later, in Trespasser, we learn that weapon was an Eluvian, found in the Winter Palace. We know it wasn't Morrigan's eluvian because that mirror was - or still is - in Skyhold.

 

Now here's the problem: the Qunari are prejudiced toward magic, we all know that. Their attitude is to curb any attempt to use magic or, if they can't control it, to destroy it. They want to stop Solas and "save" the South from his influence - aka convert everyone to the Qun with the excuse of salvation from the perdition brought by the abuse of magic.

 

And just how do they do that?

 

By using the same kind of magic they barely understand and comdemn. By using Eluvians to travel to the Crossroads - sort like a part of the Fade, a place they should NEVER want to go into - and then all over Thedas.

 

 

 

From the number of broken Eluvians we find in the Qunari stronghold, we can deduce they have been trying to activate one for many years. So the Qunari have been dabbing with magic they don't understand in order to stop an enemy that is known to come from the same people that created these dangerous artifacts in the first place. How does that work? It's like being a xenophobe, but inviting foreign people to come live in your house.

 

We can deduce they didn't find the Eluvians per chance. Something tells me - and I might be horribly wrong about this - that Solas had some subtle role in making sure the Divasala found the Eluvians. The Qunari supposedly know nothing of ancient elven History. They live in a reclusive country in the far north. How would they have even heard of Eluvians, much less figured out how do they work, when not even our mages from the Circle were able to do so? There are a lot of plot holes there.

 

The logical choice the Divasala would take would be to destroy the Eluvians once she learned they lead to the Fade. Remember, that's where evil demons whisper dangerous, tempting ideas to the Saarebas. There's no way a troop of Qunari warriors would accept to walk in the Fade having that kind of religion. Not when we see a troop choose to immediately attack Anders in DA2 when they learn he's an uncollared mage. To expect the Divasala to cooly consider reactivating an Eluvian, a magical object that leads to the realm of demons and to actually give some thought about using it as a resource in war is tremendously problematic, if not far-fetched.

 

One possible way out of this logical conundrum is the fact that the Qunari have a no-waste philosophy. If we apply that philosophy to magic, we see how it takes shape: the Qunari cut the tongue of Saarebas and chain them. So they are against magic because they find it dangerous, but use it nonetheless? Sounds a bit contradictory to me. It's like a country that condemns homicide, but has death penalty.

 

I'd like to read my fellow forumites' opinions on this. Maybe you'll help me figure out a possible explanation to the Qunari using ancient magical objects without reservation or fear. And if you have any theories, feel free to bring them to discussion.

 

Viddasala was a rogue agent who took her role to its illogical extreme. She hid her work from her superiors. She also instructed her subordinates to hide the information. You can see this in the gatekeeper's log. He tells one of the Viddasala's researchers to document where she was finding the artifacts. The researcher just wrote, "ruins" or something like that. The guard forcefully makes the request again, and the next time she just writes "outside Darvaarad". The guard then writes that he has requested a knife from his Sten.

 

In the Darvaarad we see that Viddasala was researching all kinds of magical objects, as well as red lyrium. And if you remember, the Qunari created an alliance with the Inquisition (the first of its kind) in order to stop red lyrium from spreading past Orlais and Ferelden. Yet here she is bringing it in and exposing Qunari to it. If she had treated it as Varric had if he kept the red lyrium in DA2, then I might understand. But no, she was taking no such precautions.

 

Finally, if you allied with the Qunari, you find a letter from Par Vollen that they have no knowledge of any plot by Viddasala to attack the Council or threaten their alliance with the Inquisition. The letter is ripped and crumpled, which suggests that Viddasala intercepted it and angrily tore it because she knew it meant she would be hauled in by the Ariqun for everything she did.

 

And like Iron Bull will say if you take him to the mines to hear Jerrik's account, the Viddasala is instructed to suppress and control magic. She should not let saarebas within a thousand feet of lyrium. Yet we see that she was feeding it to saarebas.

 

So no, it was not her role to use magical artifacts to stop magic. She would have likely been declared Tal-Vashoth for her actions. But she saw herself as acting truly to her role. She saw violating her role as acceptable because her ultimate goal was to stop the elvhen magic and strengthen the Veil, thus suppressing all other magics.
 

[Dai Grepher]

They tell you they're not involved even if you don't ally with them. It seems like a plausible deniability thing to me. If she fails, she gets disavowed, and if she succeeds the Qunari invade a leaderless south. This seems likely considering what the Qunari always do in the epilogue: refocus their efforts on their war with Tevinter.

 

The refocus on Tevinter is because they were going to go south to stop Viddasala. With her dead, they had no reason to go south.

 

If the Qunari were planning the invasion, they would have done it regardless. Viddasala claims the gentle path was no longer an option, and the Qunari would take the way of swords. And yet... nothing. She was lying to you about it being a legitimate operation. She wanted it to be so.

 

It could be a case of the Qunari denying involvement when in fact they were involved, or it could be a case where they truly were not involved. If they weren't involved, they would say the same thing; that they weren't involved. So all we have to go on is their word vs. Viddasala's actions. She violated the Qun in numerous instances, so it's most likely that she was acting outside the Qun in attacking the Council as well.

[The Baconer]

The refocus on Tevinter is because they were going to go south to stop Viddasala. With her dead, they had no reason to go south.

 

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

Relax, Thedas. The Antaam was just going to liberate you from one of our rogue agents. After all the monarchs and the pope were dead, of course.