89 réponses à ce sujet

[Kurogane335]

It was the same when they disavowed the Arishok, WHEN HE FAILED. They would not have cared if he had succeed, same with the Vidasala.

 

No the cases of the Arishok and the Viddasala are completely different. The Arishok was never tasked to do anything to the South. His goal was to go there, get the Tome of Koslun and return home.The Viddasala was, at the very least, ordered to act as she did. Maybe she went too far or maybe she didn't, but in the end, she was ordered to do something to the South. The Arishok was not and it was years of abuses and the direct killing of an innocent for the sole crime of converting to the Qun which drove him to his ill-fated invasion of Kirkwall. Which draws a parallel with the end of the Qunari Wars, since the Qunari ceased the fight when their converts where slaughtered en masse.

[Dai Grepher]

No the cases of the Arishok and the Viddasala are completely different. The Arishok was never tasked to do anything to the South. His goal was to go there, get the Tome of Koslun and return home.The Viddasala was, at the very least, ordered to act as she did. Maybe she went too far or maybe she didn't, but in the end, she was ordered to do something to the South. The Arishok was not and it was years of abuses and the direct killing of an innocent for the sole crime of converting to the Qun which drove him to his ill-fated invasion of Kirkwall. Which draws a parallel with the end of the Qunari Wars, since the Qunari ceased the fight when their converts where slaughtered en masse.

 

There's plenty of evidence that she was acting without orders and outside the Qun. She even had to persuade some of her people to accept what she was doing because of how anti-Qun it seemed.
 

[Aren]

I genuinely believe that the Qun need from the writers part, a very deep and careful attention otherwise would become just a contrived supper.

For the moment that is my thought,there aren't writers capable to do anything good with the Qun,which isn't a fascinating philosophy for the way in which the concept was developed,through the franchise ,is just a chaotic list of contradictions on contradictions.

As for the eluvians i simply don't care anymore,they were this ancient,rare and mysterious mirrors,2 in DAO and only one created in DAII.

Suddendly in just one Dlc they were everywhere,kinda like something easy to find from Ikea.

[Kurogane335]

There's plenty of evidence that she was acting without orders and outside the Qun. She even had to persuade some of her people to accept what she was doing because of how anti-Qun it seemed.
 

 

But there is more evidence that she had worked for the Qun at some point. She had members of the Antaam working for her, and a little army of spies. She may have broke with the Qunari leaders at some point, but she obviously was ordered by them at some point. The Arishok never was.

[Dai Grepher]

But there is more evidence that she had worked for the Qun at some point. She had members of the Antaam working for her, and a little army of spies. She may have broke with the Qunari leaders at some point, but she obviously was ordered by them at some point. The Arishok never was.

 

I agree that she worked for them at some point. But she decided to act on her own when she found the eluvian network and the ancient knowledge. She was likely given some soldiers from the antaam to help her track down magic users, but that doesn't mean the Ariqun or Arishok authorized her to use them for her secret plans. She was likely given spies as well, again to track magic and discover secrets.

 

And I agree that the Arishok acted without orders in DA2.

[Aren]

 

 

And I agree that the Arishok acted without orders 

I believe that he had the authority to act since he was part of the triumvirate.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I believe that he had the authority to act since he was part of the triumvirate.

 

I'm pretty sure acts of war are not only decided by the Arishok. At the very least he should have consulted the other two, I assume. It was also not a demand of the Qun to attack a single city that is relatively unimportant all things considered, especially given that it only helped fulfill his actual mission (retrieve the Tome) by pure chance (if Isabela comes back and if Hawke is willing to give her to him).

 

As for the Viddasala, little indicates she went rogue. Her entire plan requires that the Qunari be ready to attack the South. She almost managed to rig every single court of importance in Thedas to explode. This would require the full ressources of the Ben-Hassrath, and the Antaaam to be ready to seize the advantage. Otherwise it would be a wasted opportunity.

 

Same for tracking down Solas. What does a non-loyal Viddasala have to gain from this manhunt, unless she was ordered to neutralize a very powerful mage by her superior?

[Dai Grepher]

I believe that he had the authority to act since he was part of the triumvirate.

 

But he is just the... "arm", I think. He isn't the "brain". He would have to consult with the others first before starting a war that would nullify the Liomyn (sp?) Accord and turn the south hostile.

[Dai Grepher]

As for the Viddasala, little indicates she went rogue. Her entire plan requires that the Qunari be ready to attack the South. She almost managed to rig every single court of importance in Thedas to explode. This would require the full ressources of the Ben-Hassrath, and the Antaaam to be ready to seize the advantage. Otherwise it would be a wasted opportunity.

 

Same for tracking down Solas. What does a non-loyal Viddasala have to gain from this manhunt, unless she was ordered to neutralize a very powerful mage by her superior?

 

It doesn't require them to be ready. It would just make it possible for them to attack if they decide to capitalize on it, and I doubt Dragon's Breath would have made the attack easier even if it had been successful. It isn't like there were warships sailing toward Denerim, or armies standing outside the gates of Val Royeaux. In fact, one of Viddasala's letters shows that she planned to take the Winter Palace with her own forces that would be waiting inside the elven ruin.

 

It would not require the entire Ben-Hassrath. Just specific agents. Besides, the plan itself was poorly thought out. All it would have done is started some fires. It isn't like they could detonate every noble house across the south at the same time.

 

That's her role. To kill dangerous mages. Solas interfered with her plot, so she turned her attention to him.

 

If this had been an official operation, it would have been far more coordinated, and it would not have relied on eluvians at all. It would have been a simple infiltrate and strike mission through old fashioned means.

[The Baconer]

It would not require the entire Ben-Hassrath. Just specific agents. Besides, the plan itself was poorly thought out. All it would have done is started some fires. It isn't like they could detonate every noble house across the south at the same time.

 

'Start some fires'? The monarchs would be dead. All the nobility and their retinues at the Exalted Conference would be dead. The Divine would be dead. The Inquisitor would be dead.

 

Very armchair-general to call it "poorly thought out" or poorly-coordinated, when the only reason the PC didn't end up a red stain was Solas' sabotage.

[Dai Grepher]

'Start some fires'? The monarchs would be dead. All the nobility and their retinues at the Exalted Conference would be dead. The Divine would be dead. The Inquisitor would be dead.

 

Very armchair-general to call it "poorly thought out" or poorly-coordinated, when the only reason the PC didn't end up a red stain was Solas' sabotage.

 

Well those gattlock barrels aren't like the Venatori fire ship or anything. They're basically as powerful as a fireball spell from Origins. So unless you think Anora is going to climb to the top of a pile of gattlock barrels to sit on her throne, there is no chance she'll be blown up by them. Alistair? He'd probably mistake them for a new throne accessory or something and think they were cool. The Cousland king/queen? No way.

 

Oh yes, it would be quite the blow to Ferelden to lose Arl Marmalade. And Cyril? Just one member of the CoH? Big deal. And my Divine was Vivienne, who has survived... well... multiple gattlock barrels actually, and far worse. No, such an operation was doomed to failure. There's no way they could have blown up all the banns, arls, teyrns, kings, queens, emperors, empresses, and suitable replacements all within a short period of time. And if they had tallises in place to stab where their fires did not reach, or baaresad warriors to seize lands, then they would have done so even after the Dragon's Breath plan failed.

 

No, I'm afraid Dragon's Breath and the promised sweep of the south was nothing more than the insane machinations of an extremist Tal-Vashoth.

 

Just because Solas discovered the plot first does not mean the Inquisition wouldn't have discovered it as well without his help. Sera was already suspicious. Spirit Cole would have sensed it coming. Leliana... er... okay, forget Leliana. Maybe a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull would have caught it. I don't know. The game seems to portray him as incompetent. I think Vivienne would have caught it too. She notices stuff like that because she knows how the Grand Game is played through servants. And my Inquisitor definately would have.

 

And let's not forget what this DLC was. Forced exposition that disregarded player choice and ruined various characters.

[leaguer of one]

Well those gattlock barrels aren't like the Venatori fire ship or anything. They're basically as powerful as a fireball spell from Origins. So unless you think Anora is going to climb to the top of a pile of gattlock barrels to sit on her throne, there is no chance she'll be blown up by them. Alistair? He'd probably mistake them for a new throne accessory or something and think they were cool. The Cousland king/queen? No way.

 

Oh yes, it would be quite the blow to Ferelden to lose Arl Marmalade. And Cyril? Just one member of the CoH? Big deal. And my Divine was Vivienne, who has survived... well... multiple gattlock barrels actually, and far worse. No, such an operation was doomed to failure. There's no way they could have blown up all the banns, arls, teyrns, kings, queens, emperors, empresses, and suitable replacements all within a short period of time. And if they had tallises in place to stab where their fires did not reach, or baaresad warriors to seize lands, then they would have done so even after the Dragon's Breath plan failed.

 

No, I'm afraid Dragon's Breath and the promised sweep of the south was nothing more than the insane machinations of an extremist Tal-Vashoth.

 

Just because Solas discovered the plot first does not mean the Inquisition wouldn't have discovered it as well without his help. Sera was already suspicious. Spirit Cole would have sensed it coming. Leliana... er... okay, forget Leliana. Maybe a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull would have caught it. I don't know. The game seems to portray him as incompetent. I think Vivienne would have caught it too. She notices stuff like that because she knows how the Grand Game is played through servants. And my Inquisitor definately would have.

 

And let's not forget what this DLC was. Forced exposition that disregarded player choice and ruined various characters.

Logic says they are clustered together at key point that causes the place they are in to implode.

But that's just me.

 

 

And no it was not an insane plan.

 

 

Stop trying to warp things to support your argument.

[ModernAcademic]

No the cases of the Arishok and the Viddasala are completely different. The Arishok was never tasked to do anything to the South. His goal was to go there, get the Tome of Koslun and return home.The Viddasala was, at the very least, ordered to act as she did. Maybe she went too far or maybe she didn't, but in the end, she was ordered to do something to the South. The Arishok was not and it was years of abuses and the direct killing of an innocent for the sole crime of converting to the Qun which drove him to his ill-fated invasion of Kirkwall. Which draws a parallel with the end of the Qunari Wars, since the Qunari ceased the fight when their converts where slaughtered en masse.

 

I thought he already had the Tome when he set sail to the South (supposing his destination was indeed Kirkwall; DA2 doesn't make it clear).

 

Isabela stole the Tome when the dreadnought was already in Southern waters, perhaps around Antiva and Rivain, where, we know (thanks to the Trespasser Epilogue on Josephine's fate) there are many pirates who predate on all sorts of ships.

 

So their coming to the South could have been to stage an invasion. A test attack. But stealing the Tome halted their plans. We can't know for sure.

[The Baconer]

And let's not forget what this DLC was. Forced exposition that disregarded player choice and ruined various characters.

 

Oh.

 

So that's what this is really about :>

[ModernAcademic]

As for the Viddasala, little indicates she went rogue. Her entire plan requires that the Qunari be ready to attack the South. She almost managed to rig every single court of importance in Thedas to explode. This would require the full ressources of the Ben-Hassrath, and the Antaaam to be ready to seize the advantage. Otherwise it would be a wasted opportunity.

 

Same for tracking down Solas. What does a non-loyal Viddasala have to gain from this manhunt, unless she was ordered to neutralize a very powerful mage by her superior?

 

Another reason for my massive headache. Lots of facts in Trespasser just don't add up. There's too much contradiction.

[leaguer of one]

I thought he already had the Tome when he set sail to the South (supposing his destination was indeed Kirkwall; DA2 doesn't make it clear).

 

Isabela stole the Tome when the dreadnought was already in Southern waters, perhaps around Antiva and Rivain, where, we know (thanks to the Trespasser Epilogue on Josephine's fate) there are many pirates who predate on all sorts of ships.

 

So their coming to the South could have been to stage an invasion. A test attack. But stealing the Tome halted their plans. We can't know for sure.

No. He came south only to get the tome. It was intercepted by isabella. That's it. It was not really any invasion plan.

[ModernAcademic]

As for the eluvians i simply don't care anymore,they were this ancient,rare and mysterious mirrors,2 in DAO and only one created in DAII.

 

Suddendly in just one DLC they were everywhere, kinda like something easy to find from Ikea.

 

 

 

 

[Illegitimus]

 

The logical choice the Divasala would take would be to destroy the Eluvians once she learned they lead to the Fade. Remember, that's where evil demons whisper dangerous, tempting ideas to the Saarebas. There's no way a troop of Qunari warriors would accept to walk in the Fade having that kind of religion. Not when we see a troop choose to immediately attack Anders in DA2 when they learn he's an uncollared mage. To expect the Divasala to cooly consider reactivating an Eluvian, a magical object that leads to the realm of demons and to actually give some thought about using it as a resource in war is tremendously problematic, if not far-fetched.

 

One possible way out of this logical conundrum is the fact that the Qunari have a no-waste philosophy. If we apply that philosophy to magic, we see how it takes shape: the Qunari cut the tongue of Saarebas and chain them. So they are against magic because they find it dangerous, but use it nonetheless? Sounds a bit contradictory to me. It's like a country that condemns homicide, but has death penalty.

 

 

The only thing you need to resolve this "contradiction" is to conclude that the Qun includes the concept of "The lesser of two evils".  And it has never been the case that the Qunari regard magic as something you never, ever use under any circumstances.  It's just something they mistrust and restrict heavily.  But saarebas means "dangerous thing" not "forbidden thing".  

 

And there is nothing at all extraordinary  about a country condemning homicide and having a death penalty.  

 

 

 

Well those gattlock barrels aren't like the Venatori fire ship or anything. They're basically as powerful as a fireball spell from Origins. 

 

 

Oi don't confuse cut scene reality with game play reality.  Things that wouldn't come close to killing a character in game play can be certain death in cut scenes.  

[leaguer of one]

The only thing you need to resolve this "contradiction" is to conclude that the Qun includes the concept of "The lesser of two evils".  And it has never been the case that the Qunari regard magic as something you never, ever use under any circumstances.  It's just something they mistrust and restrict heavily.  But saarebas means "dangerous thing" not "forbidden thing".  

 

And there is nothing at all extraordinary  about a country condemning homicide and having a death penalty.  

Yes it has. The fact they have ranks like the Viddasala and use saarabas prove that. Remember, the ben-hasserith are far more flexible and allowed flexibility to do their job.

 

 

If you are confuse by it look at it this way in this vid at 7:50

[The Baconer]

If you are confuse by it look at it this way in this vid at 7:50

 

Goes from playfully winking at dudes before slitting their throats, to "You could have just walked away... there are other paths /sulk"

 

Piece of **** character.

[ModernAcademic]

And there is nothing at all extraordinary  about a country condemning homicide and having a death penalty.  

 

 

So a country that comdemns the act of murder finds it natural to apply justice by murdering the murderer?

 

Only it isn't called murder because of a technicality. When the govt. ends someone's life, it's not the same as an individual killing another, since the act is a response to another backed by a set of laws and precedents.

 

Laws follow the morality of a society and are developed according to rational assumptions. If that morality comdemns the act of killing, then the penalty for any crime cannot include to kill a subject, no matter what he did. Otherwise, that single comdemnation is incongruent with the very principles that guide the whole legislation. In other words, it is automatically invalidated. Simple as that.

 

Give the criminal perpetual imprisonment, but not death.

[leaguer of one]

Goes from playfully winking at dudes before slitting their throats, to "You could have just walked away... there are other paths /sulk"

 

Piece of **** character.

You do know that the Iron Bull would of done the same thing.

Hell, Lelliana would of done the same thing.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Another reason for my massive headache. Lots of facts in Trespasser just don't add up. There's too much contradiction.

 

There's no contradiction as I see it. The Viddasala being rogue is a smokescreen, a lie told by Bull. The entire story makes no sense unless she is sanctioned, from my point of view.

[Lady Artifice]

Goes from playfully winking at dudes before slitting their throats, to "You could have just walked away... there are other paths /sulk"

 

Piece of **** character.

 

That's what bugged me too. Winking at someone before she kills them itself, is not...particularly reassuring or stable behavior. Next thing she's all mournful and self righteous. 

[leaguer of one]

That's what bugged me too. Winking at someone before she kills them itself, is not...particularly reassuring or stable behavior. Next thing she's all mournful and self righteous. 

You do know that the Iron Bull would of done the same thing.

Hell, Lelliana would of done the same thing.