234 réponses à ce sujet

[Esthlos]

I used to think so, but I'm not so sure anymore after considering the following...

A. Sovereign was destroyed by 1 fleet, who lost 8 cruisers.
This means that the reapers can be destroyed, and losing 8 cruisers isn't that bad if you consider that Sovereign was backed up by a Geth Heretics' fleet strong enough to overpower the defence force of the Citadel in minutes.
 
B. Sovereign was stunned when the "resurrected" Saren got killed; this means that it is possible to stun the Reapers, maybe through the signal that Cerberus was studying at Sanctuary.
 
C. As we can see during ME3's gameplay when we scan too much in a system, the Reapers are about as fast as the Normandy and have no long range weaponry.
 
D. "When I proposed to build our own Mass Relays the other Asari laughed the blue out of my ass, so now I serve drinks" - Matriarch Aethyta, ME2.
So, the Asari may be able to build Mass Relays, and the Protheans certainly were (they did, on Ilos).
 
E. Much of the Reapers' fleet moved in the Sol system by the end, and Mass Relays release a massive explosion when destroyed.
Yea, we lose Earth, but may severely cripple the Reaper's fleet and even save the Galaxy... destroying the Sol relay should at least be considered.
 
 
 
So, how can we combine this info, how can we exploit these flaws?

What if instead of pouring everything in the Crucible, of which the only thing we know for certain was that it either was never used before or it never defeated the Reapers, the Galaxy pooled resources to make an army of small, fast, long-range bombers, maybe equipped with small disposable Mass Relays (for a fast escape when the Reapers actually reached a bomber, maybe even rigged to explode in their face after the Bomber escaped), that would kite the Reapers and destroy them with focused fire?


Don't tell me that Garrus never thought of hitting the Reapers from far away, or that Thane never considered using an hit and run tactic...

Of course, this relies on betting that the Reapers would be too arrogant to counter the strategy... and we actually know for a fact that they are that much arrogant, as is vastly shown during the series.

[themikefest]

The battle against Sovereign showed what not to do. Hackett is a very poor leader. Why couldn't he just position all the ships behind Sovereign? Had that happened, the Alliance may of had fewer losses or no losses.

 

The other thing is the whole battle was setup for the SR1 to make the kill shot. Even after Sovereign lost its shields, it still wasn't taking damage. But in swoops the itsy-bitsy frigate, SR1, along with 2 fighters, one on each side to destroy the reaper. Whatever.

 

A conventional victory would not work. Reapers win by numbers alone. Here's a post from another thread with the possible number the reapers may have. If the 50 000 year cycle hasn't been happening for that long, it would be possible to beat them. That's up to Bioware to decide how long the 50 000 year cycle has been happening

[dorktainian]

Of course there's a way to win conventionally.  Join the reapers.

[Reorte]

The problem with a conventional victory being possible is that there have been so many cycles that either one of the previous ones should've achieved it, or this one is extra-special (which the story seems to be pushing but it really doesn't seem likely). That's running head-long into the fact that the Reapers don't exactly act bright.

[themikefest]

The problem with a conventional victory being possible is that there have been so many cycles that either one of the previous ones should've achieved it, or this one is extra-special (which the story seems to be pushing but it really doesn't seem likely). That's running head-long into the fact that the Reapers don't exactly act bright.

If the reapers had entered through the Citadel relay in a surprise attack like all the cycles before, there would've been no way for this cycle to have a conventional victory even if it was possible.

[Jukaga]

There are too many and they are too individually powerful, but they do seem to pull their punches and hang back to see what the organic mites are up to. Catalyst's intervention possibly? They could have stopped any effort in ME3 simply by picketing each mass relay with a few destroyers never mind dreadnoughts, but instead they disperse and lay siege to a few key worlds. It's like they didn't really want to win, they left so many doors open for the organic resistance.

[cap and gown]

Defeat the Reapers conventionally and not get the chance to paint the galaxy in our favored color scheme? Blasphemy!

[fhs33721]

Yes it is.

 

A. To me it seemed like he was kicking everyones ass without taking damage whatsoever and only lost when he pulled a pointless posession-move on Saren (for reasons that remain nebulous at best), that backfired.

 

B. By the time of ME2 Harbinger already solved the "possesed husk getting killed-> Reaper flops over on its back like a dead spider-problem"  by using a double-layer of posession that allowed him to get his vessels killed over and over again without him being harmed in any way. Also the Cerberus-station on Horizon got destroyed by Reapers in the end. So their signal probably sucked after all.

 

C. I wouldn't take that piece of gameplay at face value. Also where does it say they don't have long range weapons?

 

D. What does that have to do with anything? They are not capable to do it yet, even though they eventually could if they bothered to study it. But ME3 plays in the middle of an apocalypse and building just one new mass relay  would probably take effort close to the one it takes to build the crubcile. And then in the end you have one Mass relay which will help you how exactly against the Reapers?

 

E. One, If I remember correctly the majority of Reapers is in fact not in the Sol system. They are spread out all over the galaxy. I think there are more Reapers in Sol than in any other single system but that doesn't say much. Two how do you plan to blow the Relay up? You will hardly have months of time to engeneer a flying comet that flies into it with a whole bunch of Reapers around.

 

Also the Reapers are holding back. Quite a bit. Because if they wanted they could turn all the planets into lifeless wastelands in mere hours. But they don't, sicne they want to harvest. So if you actually do manage to start being a actual threat to their harvest, they'd probably just say: "Damm this cycle is annoying. You know what before we start to have major casualties let's just burn them all to hell and hope for better luck next cycle."

[Reorte]

If the reapers had entered through the Citadel relay in a surprise attack like all the cycles before, there would've been no way for this cycle to have a conventional victory even if it was possible.

Relying on that being an effective technique every time is very dangerous.

[Reorte]

Also the Reapers are holding back. Quite a bit. Because if they wanted they could turn all the planets into lifeless wastelands in mere hours. But they don't, sicne they want to harvest. So if you actually do manage to start being a actual threat to their harvest, they'd probably just say: "Damm this cycle is annoying. You know what before we start to have major casualties let's just burn them all to hell and hope for better luck next cycle."

In which case they should destroy the galaxy's military as quickly and as effectively as possible then get on with the harvest unopposed. They don't need to hold back at all in space.

[themikefest]

Relying on that being an effective technique every time is very dangerous.

If its so dangerous, then why was it so successful against all the cycles before this one?

[fhs33721]

In which case they should destroy the galaxy's military as quickly and as effectively as possible then get on with the harvest unopposed. They don't need to hold back at all in space.

Well they do win ervery single space battle they fight, don't they?

[Jukaga]

Couldn't they have spared a Dreadnought or two on Tuchanka or Rannoch? That would have won it for them right there. Face it: they made Reapers too powerful in-lore to believe we can defeat them any way, even non-conventionally. So by the time they show up in ME3, they have to be beaten with the stupid stick so they don't win overnight. They took Shep's 'this isn't about strategy or tactics' to heart because if I or any other armchair general was leading them they would have won without any difficulty.

 

At least in Macross the millions of Zentraedi ships had good reasons for holding back and not wiping out our insignificant planet and the SDF1 in 5 seconds.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think the problem doesn't lie in the script but with the way the story was executed along with the game mechanics. We have the single player TPS, the EMS system, and the multiplayer as the main ways we interact with the Reapers. The problem is none of these things really imply any kind of Reaper dominance for the player, instead it's the opposite. Mowing through Reapers is fun and you'll do a lot of it; and throughout, you and the galaxy at large (we have a number that literally measures military strength and it largely only goes up, plus the MP bonuses) only get stronger. The Reapers military strength isn't something that can be felt but only told about in text messages and expository dialogue. Outside of that we basically get two visual cutscenes that actual suggest the Reapers devastation, but both are front loaded into the first act and there's much gun play between there and rest of the story.

 

This is a problem a lot of shooters have but you can only blow through so many enemy mooks before the message that you're facing an 'unstoppable enemy' wears thin. It creates a dichotomy where you have two different kinds of Reapers: the one that exists in exposition and the other that exists in gameplay. Considering how much time the game focuses on the later -- especially if you play the MP that the single player campaign repeatedly brings up -- that I think is the one that starts to stick with people.

[Reorte]

If its so dangerous, then why was it so successful against all the cycles before this one?

A question that should've been answered and wasn't.

[fraggle]

A question that should've been answered and wasn't.

 

Well, it was, more or less. All cycles just were stupid enough to inhabit the Citadel when knowing nothing about it I mean, sure, why wouldn't you take something for yourself if you can't see anything evil with it? I think it's a good trap. It's a safe place to be until it's too late.

And let's face it. If not the Protheans had changed the signal, our cycle would've been wiped out as well, as usual.

[themikefest]

A question that should've been answered and wasn't.

You're the one who said it was dangerous.  You seem to know the answer if you're saying its  dangerous.

[Esthlos]

Yes it is.
 
A. To me it seemed like he was kicking everyones ass without taking damage whatsoever and only lost when he pulled a pointless posession-move on Saren (for reasons that remain nebulous at best), that backfired.

That possession move is exactly why I instead think that Sovereign wasn't holding that well: it's a desperate move, not the act of someone who could just keep hanging in there.
 

B. By the time of ME2 Harbinger already solved the "possesed husk getting killed-> Reaper flops over on its back like a dead spider-problem"  by using a double-layer of posession that allowed him to get his vessels killed over and over again without him being harmed in any way. Also the Cerberus-station on Horizon got destroyed by Reapers in the end. So their signal probably sucked after all.

Probably they didn't get it complete enough... would still be a weapon worth studying.
 

C. I wouldn't take that piece of gameplay at face value. Also where does it say they don't have long range weapons?

If that piece of gameplay isn't enough we also have the battle cinematics at the end, where the Reaper dreadnoughts only fire at very close range.
 

D. What does that have to do with anything? They are not capable to do it yet, even though they eventually could if they bothered to study it. But ME3 plays in the middle of an apocalypse and building just one new mass relay  would probably take effort close to the one it takes to build the crubcile. And then in the end you have one Mass relay which will help you how exactly against the Reapers?

Actually I was thinking about having the Asari and Salarians try to work on miniaturized, disposable, mass-produced Mass Relays (infiltration and espionage aren't very useful against the Reapers, so they might as well work on this instead).
 

E. One, If I remember correctly the majority of Reapers is in fact not in the Sol system. They are spread out all over the galaxy. I think there are more Reapers in Sol than in any other single system but that doesn't say much. Two how do you plan to blow the Relay up? You will hardly have months of time to engeneer a flying comet that flies into it with a whole bunch of Reapers around.

You fly the Crucible into it, since the Reapers don't seem willing to destroy it.
 
No, seriously, I don't know how they could actually manage it (maybe a few fusion bombs stealthily planted by the Normandy?), yet I still think they should at least have considered it.
 

Also the Reapers are holding back. Quite a bit. Because if they wanted they could turn all the planets into lifeless wastelands in mere hours. But they don't, sicne they want to harvest. So if you actually do manage to start being a actual threat to their harvest, they'd probably just say: "Damm this cycle is annoying. You know what before we start to have major casualties let's just burn them all to hell and hope for better luck next cycle."

As others already wrote, why would they hold back?
Why not go ahead, get the Citadel immediately by sheer force and shut down the Relay system as you had always done if you can?
There even is no reason for the Catalyst to be holding them back: the only thing special about this cycle at that point is that the previous one managed to warn them and delay the invasion.
Admittedly beating the Collectors is impressive, but the Protheans likely had feats just as impressive and still didn't deserve the Catalyst's attention.

Either the Reapers aren't holding back at all or this is yet another example of bad writing.

[Reorte]

You're the one who said it was dangerous.  You seem to know the answer if you're saying its  dangerous.

I know the answer as to why it is, not as to why it isn't. Why it is is because the entire plan runs around the same thing working, every single time, for however many cycles. Even if it happens most of the time there's no guarantee that some spacefaring civilisation with reasonable FTL capabilities won't arise that won't make use of the Citadel in that way and wouldn't be as crippled by losing the relay network.

Well, it was, more or less. All cycles just were stupid enough to inhabit the Citadel when knowing nothing about it I mean, sure, why wouldn't you take something for yourself if you can't see anything evil with it? I think it's a good trap. It's a safe place to be until it's too late.
And let's face it. If not the Protheans had changed the signal, our cycle would've been wiped out as well, as usual.

That's the bit I don't buy. It's stretching it things rather a long way for the Reapers to rely on that. Hell, we saw what happens when it went a bit iffy with the Protheans and this cycle. They're damned lucky it hadn't happened in an earlier one if there have been so many.

[Reorte]

That possession move is exactly why I instead think that Sovereign wasn't holding that well: it's a desperate move, not the act of someone who could just keep hanging in there.

It's never made sense to me yet that's a good explanation. Thanks!

[themikefest]

I know the answer as to why it is, not as to why it isn't. Why it is is because the entire plan runs around the same thing working, every single time, for however many cycles. Even if it happens most of the time there's no guarantee that some spacefaring civilisation with reasonable FTL capabilities won't arise that won't make use of the Citadel in that way and wouldn't be as crippled by losing the relay network.

Still doesn't make it dangerous. Unless that civilization knows the reapers use the Citadel relay to setup a trap for the reapers or are better prepared, there is nothing dangerous about the reapers using the Citadel relay in a surprise attack.
 

That's the bit I don't buy. It's stretching it things rather a long way for the Reapers to rely on that. Hell, we saw what happens when it went a bit iffy with the Protheans and this cycle. They're damned lucky it hadn't happened in an earlier one if there have been so many.

The surprise attack worked on the Protheans. Fortunately the Protheans kept Ilos from being discovered. If not for the scientists finding a way to alter the signal, our cycle would be harvested.

Even with the reapers not using the Citadel in this cycle, they would've harvested us very easily. Bioware just made them stupid so that they can be stopped in our cycle. The only way to stop the reapers is to find the plans for the device, build it and then use it before they enter the galaxy

[Reorte]

Still doesn't make it dangerous. Unless that civilization knows the reapers use the Citadel relay to setup a trap for the reapers or are better prepared, there is nothing dangerous about the reapers using the Citadel relay in a surprise attack.

It's dangerous if it's possible to defeat them conventionally and they're relying on the quick strike on the Citadel to avoid that.

Even with the reapers not using the Citadel in this cycle, they would've harvested us very easily. Bioware just made them stupid so that they can be stopped in our cycle. The only way to stop the reapers is to find the plans for the device, build it and then use it before they enter the galaxy

Yes. All part of the same thing IMO.

[themikefest]

It's dangerous if it's possible to defeat them conventionally and they're relying on the quick strike on the Citadel to avoid that.

Until a civilization proves they can beat the reapers conventionally, they'll continue using the Citadel relay without much concern

[fhs33721]

That possession move is exactly why I instead think that Sovereign wasn't holding that well: it's a desperate move, not the act of someone who could just keep hanging in there.

Let's say it is a desperate move (Even though he doesn't seem desperate at all and is kicking plenty ass even after he pulled that move). A desperate move to accomplish what exactly? If he really was in the process of loosing against Heckkets fleet, how could he possibly change that by personally killing Shepard? It's just a pointless move he makes so the good guys can win.

 

Probably they didn't get it complete enough... would still be a weapon worth studying.

So you'd just pour all your ressources into some sort of vague Reaper-controlling Signal super weapon, of which you have no idea if it can actually work instead of the vague Reaper destroying crubcicle weapon, of which you have no idea if it actually works but you at least have it almost finished  already? Doesn't seem that bright a idea.

 

If that piece of gameplay isn't enough we also have the battle cinematics at the end, where the Reaper dreadnoughts only fire at very close range.
 

And we also have ingame dialogue from Samantha Traynor where she says that the Reaper on  Rannoch was firing at the Noramdy, which was in space while he was down on the planet. That sounds like they do have long range weapons to me.

 

Actually I was thinking about having the Asari and Salarians try to work on miniaturized, disposable, mass-produced Mass Relays (infiltration and espionage aren't very useful against the Reapers, so they might as well work on this instead).

Is there any hint in the actual lore of Mass Effect that does as much as hint that there is a way to build miniaturized, disposable, mass-produced Mass Relays. Because I don't think there is. And if there was the Reapers would be the ones to have it first, because you know they are the ones who invented that technology.

 

You fly the Crucible into it, since the Reapers don't seem willing to destroy it.
 
No, seriously, I don't know how they could actually manage it (maybe a few fusion bombs stealthily planted by the Normandy?), yet I still think they should at least have considered it.

But then you'd still have to blow up most of your planets along with the Reapers, because they aren't all crowding together next to a single Mass Relay but are all over the galaxy.

 

As others already wrote, why would they hold back?
Why not go ahead, get the Citadel immediately by sheer force and shut down the Relay system as you had always done if you can?
There even is no reason for the Catalyst to be holding them back: the only thing special about this cycle at that point is that the previous one managed to warn them and delay the invasion.
Admittedly beating the Collectors is impressive, but the Protheans likely had feats just as impressive and still didn't deserve the Catalyst's attention.

Either the Reapers aren't holding back at all or this is yet another example of bad writing.

They are holding back, because they need a lot of live specimens of each race to fulfill their harvesting quota. It is completely in their power to blow every inhabited planet to hell an back, eradicating every living thing on them, and then the military fleets of the alliance/turians/asari/and others would have nowhere to get supplies from, nowhere to regroup and would basically be even more helpless than they already are. And even they are already loosing pretty hard even with their supply lines still being somewhat intact.

As for the Reapers not taking the citadel immediately? You answered it yourself. It's pretty much just bad writing that they don't. Because as they during the endgame of ME3 show they can apparently just capture it quite easily. But Bioware made them clutch the villain ball really, really really hard in order for you to somehow a*spull some sort of victory instead of going for a logical ending that consists of every single squadmate/NPc and friend being killed one after another, galactic civilization being anihilated and ultimately Shepard dying alone only for her/his corpse to be dissected by Harbinger for mad science afterwards.

[Reorte]

Until a civilization proves they can beat the reapers conventionally, they'll continue using the Citadel relay without much concern

Use, sure, rely on though, that looks stupid.

I suppose it boils down to if they can be beaten conventionally the odds are that they would've been by now. If there had only been half a dozen cycles it would feel more plausible.