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[bunch1]

 
Well, you know...
 
1) that the Reapers would probably just be wise to this tactic being often used by this cycle, right?
 
2) the Miracle of Palaven was a specific maneuver that required the sacrifice of several Turian dreadnoughts by itself?
 
Ship power had to act as a bait.
Troops had to land in the gaps and smuggle WMDs in.
People with these WMDs had to enter Reapers.
 
That's several layers of 'we lose many, they might lose more, unless they detect us'.
 
Seriously it took putting dreadnoughts and fleets directly into harms way just to put any significant dent in Reaper numbers. Its not just the groups that enter the Reapers. The Reapers are already too wise to that, and would otherwise have much more significantly stemmed any flow of WMDs.
 
Its certainly true that a person with a big weapon can tear up the inside of a Reaper and 'kill' it. But its just as true that its hard to get people with big weapons in, and its hard to get the big weapons into these people's hands, and its likely hard to do it again in an area once the Reapers figure out that this is a tactic for this cycle's armed forces.
 
In the meantime, while we're not shown the visuals of it, destroying a Reaper/Destroyer/Processer/etc that is receiving civilians for harvesting is actively allowing Reapers to maybe fill up with thousands to millions(?). That's also something that they have to accept if they want to use this tactic, as opposed to direct firepower and diverting Reapers away from civilians.
 
I agree that this is a valid broad tactic. But I definitely disagree with the sentence "So if it only takes a dozen or a hundred organics to walk a bomb into a reaper ship that wants them to walk in and make sure it goes off then yes, they will win the war of numbers."

I wasn't meaning to use the battle of Palaven as an example of military tactics, from the diversion/infiltration standpoint, but as a more basic proof of concept within the game.  The thought that all wmds would have to be flown in only after reapers had begun harvesting is a bit foolish.  Once proof of concept is achieved I would expect massive upscale in production across organic space and distributed across major worlds that the reapers would harvest rather then just bombard from orbit.  Even without that does anyone think the Krogan are above suicide bombing the reapers with their massive stockpile of wmds, or that their the only specious with suck stockpiles and desperation?  This alone proves that a ground force with no fleet can wipe out more ships then the cycle harvest will replace meaning that in a long war of attrition, fought over thousands of cycles the reapers could lose to this one tactic alone even if only used successfully once or twice a cycle.

 

Do I think it would grant victory on it's own?  No.  But when paired with other proven strategies like the turians dreadnoughts ftl jumping into knife fighting range and wider use of thanix cannons all these strategies that are only slowing down the reapers are turning a 200 year harvest into a 300, 400, 500 year harvest and who knows what new tech or how many ships a desperate people will be able to create in that amount of time.  Even if not, Liara leaves a wide array of time capsules across the galaxy witch almost certainly contain every proven way to kill a reaper. 

 

And if I remember right shooting the Star Child basically means the fleet at earth is wiped out but we don't see what happens after, only that at some point in the future the reapers are wiped out by organics and a very human looking old man is telling a boy the story of the Shepard.  Whose to say that 200 years into the harvest the organics turned the tide and wiped out the reapers without the crucible?  Or that the next cycle tried to use a failed weapon design like the crucible instead of simply building 5,000 dreadnoughts and tens of thousands of thanix equipped frigates.

[SwobyJ]

Yeah I do believe in much of the gist of Refuse, because I do agree with you that the situation and tactics of this cycle (built up from the efforts and actions of the last Prothian cycle, and apparently set up from most/all previous cycles as at least illustrated by the Crucible), combined with the tactics you describe, would deplete the Reapers enough that we can believe a 'more' conventional victory would happen in the next cycle.

 

But I don't think we'd last long in this cycle. Take down 'many' Reapers? Sure. But a point is made that the economy as we know it would last 1-2 years tops, and then its all about stretching thin resources, supply lines, travel routes... this cycle does not have the infrastructure that the Prothians had, and this cycle is not as capable of being ground down over decades on planets like the Prothians. Example: The Krogan may be capable of many things, but I think it was a good point by the writers to note that they absolutely need the support of others, especially the Turians, in order to wage war like they want to, due to being demilitarized. So they rely on, say, the Turians still being upright, but the Turians rely much more on galactic economy, etc... you see where this is going.

 

I do agree that the harvest/cycle itself wouldn't last in 1-2 years, but 1-2 years (maybe 5, 10, whatever) the point where there's not really a 'going back' - only a more and more desperate resistance effort that is very very likely to fail. Battle of Palaven to me seems less like a winning strategy, and more a preview of the tactics to be used by an organic population that is already doomed post-Refuse.

 

Refuse ending seems pretty clear about what the beacons are telling people NOT to do: the last (our) cycle failed, the Crucible 'didn't work' (aka the tech of it may be learned and used but not the actual thing), and just fighting as a united galaxy with the Crucible wasn't enough to beat the Reapers. Basically, 'use the info here and do your own thing'.

The dramatic purpose, as far as I see it, of the beacons was that its for the next cycle, not a few 100 years from now. Technically that could be the case, but its at least presented as not likely the intent by Bioware, given it is not an old man telling the story (you were wrong there; Refuse has a different person, an alien female/asari?).

 

It seems more likely that the next cycle's peoples, which may have included surviving asari for all we know, became uplifted by Liara Beacon knowledge just as our cycle was by Prothian Beacon knowledge. It is in that, that we can theorize stuff like them using Battle of Palaven/WMD-Suicide tactics against the Reapers early on, and figuring out the trap of the Citadel, and discover ways to resist or avoid indoctrination, and be on a better footing when facing the Reapers' otherwise terrifying psych warfare and overwhelming force, etc. I think the point was that our cycle's civilizations all die, at the very least - as do billions, trillions(?) more people than in Destroy/Control/Synthesis (even if you count a Geth program as one person).

[themikefest]

If the next cycle is able to defeat the reapers, with the use of the crucible, I would be curious when they found the time capsule.

 

Had this cycle found Prothean beacons earlier, its possible this cycle would defeat the reapers before they enter our galaxy, and most likely before humanity entered the galalctic community.

[SwobyJ]

If the next cycle is able to defeat the reapers, with the use of the crucible, I would be curious when they found the time capsule.

 

Had this cycle found Prothean beacons earlier, its possible this cycle would defeat the reapers before they enter our galaxy, and most likely before humanity entered the galalctic community.

 

Maybe, but the described reason why the Prothian beacons were not nearly as useful as they could have been, was that the Prothians didn't design them with intent for the next cycle to understand them. They were made with Prothian physiology primarily in mind, and we see all other examples that they were still so arrogant as to assume they're the rulers/future rulers in the future (Ilos and Eden Prime bunkers).

 

Maybe if we count 100s-1000s years more exposure to beacons, but then we see that the Asari had a beacon and for all we know, still didn't figure out how to unlock its information and/or comprehend it as much as a Prothian would. The beacons seemed more designed to be primers on the Prothian Empire to future Prothians (species and society), instead of primers on a united cooperative galaxy to a future organic cycle.

[bunch1]

Had this cycle found Prothean beacons earlier, its possible this cycle would defeat the reapers before they enter our galaxy, and most likely before humanity entered the galalctic community.

The Asari found their own beacon thousands of years ago on Thesia.  That is the secret as to why the Asari are always the most tech advanced specious in the galaxy.  That is why you go their in ME3, because they had built a temple around the thing.  Past that the beacons are rare, but publicly known enough that the humans knew what they had found and the council sent a spectre to oversee it's transfer so they knew how important the knowledge inside was.  The only question is why they didn't find the reaper war data considering it seems to be a high priority, from Illos to Thesia, Eden Prime to the Martian Archive the portheans seemed to have left their war with the reapers on all their tech and yet no one found it until Shepard.

 

Yeah I do believe in much of the gist of Refuse, because I do agree with you that the situation and tactics of this cycle (built up from the efforts and actions of the last Prothian cycle, and apparently set up from most/all previous cycles as at least illustrated by the Crucible), combined with the tactics you describe, would deplete the Reapers enough that we can believe a 'more' conventional victory would happen in the next cycle.

 

But I don't think we'd last long in this cycle. Take down 'many' Reapers? Sure. But a point is made that the economy as we know it would last 1-2 years tops, and then its all about stretching thin resources, supply lines, travel routes... this cycle does not have the infrastructure that the Prothians had, and this cycle is not as capable of being ground down over decades on planets like the Prothians. Example: The Krogan may be capable of many things, but I think it was a good point by the writers to note that they absolutely need the support of others, especially the Turians, in order to wage war like they want to, due to being demilitarized. So they rely on, say, the Turians still being upright, but the Turians rely much more on galactic economy, etc... you see where this is going.

 

I do agree that the harvest/cycle itself wouldn't last in 1-2 years, but 1-2 years (maybe 5, 10, whatever) the point where there's not really a 'going back' - only a more and more desperate resistance effort that is very very likely to fail. Battle of Palaven to me seems less like a winning strategy, and more a preview of the tactics to be used by an organic population that is already doomed post-Refuse.

Just because the home-worlds would be taken in the next 3-5 years doesn't mean the harvest will be over.  The Asari and Salarians have been founding colonies for thousands of years and their are likely hundreds or worlds with populations of hundreds of millions, if not billions, Illium has a population of 85 million and that is not even inside Asari space so I doubt it's their largest or most important world.  To say that these worlds alone couldn't produce a few dozen fission bombs to carry out suicide bombings when the reapers come in a decade or century is a bit short sighted.  I don't think this cycle could beat them with traditional means I just meant that we don't know how the reapers are wiped out and their is the possibility this cycle did do something.  Maybe they focused on energy weapons to bypass reaper barriers and cut them apart we don't know. 

[themikefest]

The Asari found their own beacon thousands of years ago on Thesia.That is the secret as to why the Asari are always the most tech advanced specious in the galaxy.  That is why you go their in ME3, because they had built a temple around the thing.

No. Shepard goes to Thessia because it may have something to do with identifying what the catalyst might be.
 

Past that the beacons are rare, but publicly known enough that the humans knew what they had found and the council sent a spectre to oversee it's transfer so they knew how important the knowledge inside was.  The only question is why they didn't find the reaper war data considering it seems to be a high priority, from Illos to Thesia, Eden Prime to the Martian Archive the portheans seemed to have left their war with the reapers on all their tech and yet no one found it until Shepard.

Had the asari searched Feros, they may of found the Thorian who transfer its knowledge of the Protheans to an asari like it did for Shiala. With that information, they use it to understand the beacon on Thessia. Vendetta tells them about the crucible and catalyst.

So yes. This cycle could've stopped the reapers before humanity made its entrance into the galactic community

[MrFob]

No. Shepard goes to Thessia because it may have something to do with identifying what the catalyst might be.
 

Had the asari searched Feros, they may of found the Thorian who transfer its knowledge of the Protheans to an asari like it did for Shiala. With that information, they use it to understand the beacon on Thessia. Vendetta tells them about the crucible and catalyst.

So yes. This cycle could've stopped the reapers before humanity made its entrance into the galactic community

 

One problem I see with this is that ti would require a whole lot of coordination and cooperation, basically a whole lot of people involved before we even would have found out that reapers exist.

 

At this point, Sovereign was still monitoring organic species and their progress in the milky way. I am fairly sure if he saw something like this in development, he would have intervened in some sly way. Maybe indoctrinating key personal on the project to translate the prothean beacon data or whatever. It may even be that other beacons were already found and Sovereign took care of it. After all, by the beginning of ME1, for some reason Sovereign, Saren and Benezia already know about the existence of the conduit on Illos and that the beacons are the keys to get it. We never find out how they actually obtained that information.

 

This would also be a problem for Liara's time capsules by the way. Surely the reapers would set up another sentry in the MW and whoever finds one of the time capsules would have to keep the discovery top secret right from the start. Liara would probably have put such a warning right in the welcome message but one can only hope that glyph could translate that warning into the language of the next cycle race before they publish their first archaeological paper about the capsule on the extranet.

[themikefest]

One problem I see with this is that ti would require a whole lot of coordination and cooperation, basically a whole lot of people involved before we even would have found out that reapers exist.

Why? Vendetta would tell them all about the reapers. What happened in their cycle. Once they start building the crucible, a lot of people would be involved.
 

At this point, Sovereign was still monitoring organic species and their progress in the milky way. I am fairly sure if he saw something like this in development, he would have intervened in some sly way.

If the crucible can be hidden during ME3 without the reapers knowledge, I'm sure it can be hidden without Sovereign knowing about it.
 

Maybe indoctrinating key personal on the project to translate the prothean beacon data or whatever. It may even be that other beacons were already found and Sovereign took care of it. After all, by the beginning of ME1, for some reason Sovereign, Saren and Benezia already know about the existence of the conduit on Illos and that the beacons are the keys to get it. We never find out how they actually obtained that information.

If the scenario I mentioned happens before  Saren and Benezia are involved, there's nothing to worry about
 

This would also be a problem for Liara's time capsules by the way. Surely the reapers would set up another sentry in the MW and whoever finds one of the time capsules would have to keep the discovery top secret right from the start. Liara would probably have put such a warning right in the welcome message but one can only hope that glyph could translate that warning into the language of the next cycle race before they publish their first archaeological paper about the capsule on the extranet.

Do you think the asari would refuse to use the crucible? If they do, for whatever reason, why couldn't another asari think of a time capsule? Who says Liara has to be the one to make a time capsule?

[MrFob]

Why? Vendetta would tell them all about the reapers. What happened in their cycle. Once they start building the crucible, a lot of people would be involved.

If I didn't misinterpret ME3 completely, Vendetta only showed to Shepard and did that because Shepard had the cypher. Otherwise, this would actually be a giant plot hole because if Vendetta was already available to the asari for all this time, why didn't it provide all the info about the reapers, the crucible and the catalyst 2000 years ago?
 
So you'd need the cypher (which no one knows about) to get proper access to the beacon and the info within. To get the cypher, you need to have the Thorian research on Feros, etc. So there would be a whole lot of interplanetary research and cooperation required before you'd ever hear about the reapers. Plenty of time for Sovereign to get wind of what's going on and intervene.
 

If the crucible can be hidden during ME3 without the reapers knowledge, I'm sure it can be hidden without Sovereign knowing about it.

Yes, this is true and I do consider it a pretty big contrivance in ME3 that the reapers never found the crucible construction site. However, at least we knew that we had to hide something from the reapers. In your scenario (with my addition that Vendetta is not immediatly accessable), they wouldn't even know that there was anyone to hide anything from.

If the scenario I mentioned happens before  Saren and Benezia are involved, there's nothing to worry about

I know, in that paragraph I wasn't really talking about your scenario anymore.

Do you think the asari would refuse to use the crucible? If they do, for whatever reason, why couldn't another asari think of a time capsule? Who says Liara has to be the one to make a time capsule?

Again, that paragraph was no longer about your scenario but about implications of my previous thoughts for the refuse ending that actually can happen in the ME3 EC.
 
In any case, all this is so speculative, that I think anyone could make any argument in this thread. ME3 is a story (and not a very detailed one anyway(, so there is little point in considering alternatives that would have been completely up to the author anyway. Therefore, I do realize that my previous post (and in a way this one, too) was folly, there are no "facts" to build a sensible hypothesis on.

[themikefest]

If I didn't misinterpret ME3 completely, Vendetta only showed to Shepard and did that because Shepard had the cypher. Otherwise, this would actually be a giant plot hole because if Vendetta was already available to the asari for all this time, why didn't it provide all the info about the reapers, the crucible and the catalyst 2000 years ago?
 
So you'd need the cypher (which no one knows about) to get proper access to the beacon and the info within. To get the cypher, you need to have the Thorian research on Feros, etc. So there would be a whole lot of interplanetary research and cooperation required before you'd ever hear about the reapers. Plenty of time for Sovereign to get wind of what's going on and intervene.

I did mention the Thorian passing the knowledge to an asari. So she has the cypher.

 

As I said in my post. They uncover the beacon on Thessia. Vendetta tells them all about the reapers, the crucible and the catalyst. The only problem I see is would  the asari  believe the VI or not?

 

The possibility is there for the asari to of stopped the reapers if they found the beacon and Thorian however long ago before humanity showed itself to the galactic community

 

Whatever. Its just speculation. I'm not worried about it.