234 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

And it would have bombed.

[Dantriges]

Wrong kind of game and setting. Would expect that in a zombie, horror or zombie horror game, but after the first two game it would have been rather jarring.

[von uber]

And it would have bombed.

 

Who knows? It depends how it was done.

[Whitering]

Wrong kind of game and setting. Would expect that in a zombie, horror or zombie horror game, but after the first two game it would have been rather jarring.

 

There are tons of Zombies in this game, they are called Husks.

[CYRAX470]

Hm, I tend to think it's possible. The best possible ending shows a few ships blowing the legs off a Reaper capital ship. Quarians took down a destroyer, a Cain weapon blast took down a Destroyer too. To me, it just looked like you needed the right stuff, and a lot of it, and going by the a high galactic readiness, that's possible.

[themikefest]

Hm, I tend to think it's possible. The best possible ending shows a few ships blowing the legs off a Reaper capital ship. Quarians took down a destroyer, a Cain weapon blast took down a Destroyer too. To me, it just looked like you needed the right stuff, and a lot of it, and going by the a high galactic readiness, that's possible.

It was a Hades Cannon that was destroyed by the cain, not a destroyer.

[AlanC9]

Who knows? It depends how it was done.

I can't imagine an implementation that would have worked. But yeah, this is a non-testable proposition.

[CYRAX470]

It was a Hades Cannon that was destroyed by the cain, not a destroyer.

 

My mistake, it's been 3 years since I've played. It was still a Destroyer type though. Same chassis.

[themikefest]

My mistake, it's been 3 years since I've played. It was still a Destroyer type though. Same chassis.

It may look similiar, but it had a different type of weapon and it didn't have the same protection as a destroyer.

[von uber]

I can't imagine an implementation that would have worked. But yeah, this is a non-testable proposition.

Well you can get through mass effect with only 4 casualties - VS, Thane, legion and Mordin - and it's not terribly hard to do. And they are all to some extent noble sacrifices.
For me, me3 just wasn't dark enough - especially given what is supposed to be happening.

[themikefest]

Well you can get through mass effect with only 4 casualties - VS, Thane, legion and Mordin - and it's not terribly hard to do. And they are all to some extent noble sacrifices.
For me, me3 just wasn't dark enough - especially given what is supposed to be happening.

Depending on the playthrough, the only ones to die is Ashley/Kaidan on Virmire and edi when choosing destroy. If the player chooses control or synthesis, it would only be Ashley/Kaidan that died.

[von uber]

Yeah well it was assuming you have a full squad. Point still stands though, the personal loss is minimal.

[Dantriges]

There are tons of Zombies in this game, they are called Husks.

 

Still not a zombie game, when you mow them down casually and they weren´t really the focus.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The issue with all of this is that as the reapers are written, it should be over in 5 minutes.
However that is not what the game shows or describes, leading to posts like this.

There is a contradiction between what should happen and the fact me3 is a game featuring a foot soldier.
Alliance HQ should have been a lump of glass within the first minute. The citadel should have been taken within the first few days.

Mass effect 3 should be a tale of futile resistance and survival where you witness the extinction of your species, the death of everyone you cared for and ultimately end up dying alone and unmourned.

And it would have been amazing.

 

I think it could have worked if the game was built around building the Crucible vs fighting the Reapers conventionally (with the Crucible getting built on the side). The game, to me at least, really looks like it's building towards what we see in the trailer.

[AlanC9]

You mean the trailer with a lot of ground fighting?

[bas273]

I think a conventional victory could have been possible and worked well in the game but it would require a lot of changes for ME3. Basically it would be a totally different game (much darker).

 

The answer is simple: hit&run tactics. Now the Protheans tried something similar (and even burned/razed their own planets) but this cycle has an advantage that the Protheans didn't have: the Citadel trap didn't work. The galactic government is still in place. The only downside of this tactic is that it requires the galactic races to go full renegade mode and give up complete systems if they have to.

 

But the Reapers in the current cycle made several mistakes and have several flaws. We know they ignore planets with underdeveloped species (Yahg). Hiding for the Reapers is definitely possible (Ilos) and in this cycle the Citadel trap didn't work and they attacked Earth. So the Citadel is still intact. The Reapers also need a lot of time to harvest and it seems like they are not staying together as one fleet but instead spreading out (to the point where one reaper can even be easily isolated like on Rannoch). They are also not immortal, we see many examples where they are actually killed with a relatively small force.

 

Therefore, ME3 could've been something like this (this is just quickly made so it would need some refinements):

- Reapers attack Earth (which turns out to be a fatal mistake), Shepard escapes

- Citadel Council members finally realize that they are idiots

- Citadel is evacuated and blown up, Shepard helps with this (reason why is pretty simple: the Citadel just can't be trusted, who knows perhaps the Reapers use it as a weapon too)

- Like the Quarians, there's now a "Refugee fleet" on the galaxy map which is the new primary game hub to buy/sell stuff. The Council is spread out over multiple systems and tries to organize the war effort

- Mass resources are piled into weapon researching and faster ships. Normandy tech is produced on a larger scale. Maybe some missions where Shepard tries to gather tech (from older cycles? Prothean tech). Shepard is involved in a big war meeting to come up with a plan.

- The plan is basically to use guerilla/hit&run tactics to hit small forces of Reapers as fast and hard as possible (so with a local fleet superiority), then retreat. Some diversionary attacks and information warfare is obviously necessary (think of the RTS game RUSE). This could lead to some pretty cool scenes where a small force sacrifices themselves (maybe with additional projections or largely empty ships to make it seem like a big fleet) as a diversion attack (Captain Kirrahe anyone?).

- Reapers attack Palavan and Thessia. Major choice from Shepard here where you have to give up one of the planets. Expect emotional scenes with Liara and Garrus.

- Perhaps a sacrifice Earth mission (blowing up relay?). It would also be cool if they could somehow trigger a supernova or do something else with the sun to kill Reapers, although that would be kind of similar to the Catalyst weapon.

- I'd say that by this point maybe 25% of the Reapers are killed. If Bioware had someone with military knowledge we could also have some cool scenes like where they use long-range weaponry to kite the Reapers or throw acid in their face with rachni (that ignore the shields).

- Now obviously we need a dramatic moment near the end. Maybe the refugee fleet gets attacked or the galactic fleet is cornered.

- I would let the game end with Shepard boarding Harbinger and ultimately sacrificing himself to blow up Harbinger which makes the leaderless Reapers retreat (because they never had losses like this before and it makes sense that they are afraid at this point).

- Epilogue shows humanity far in the future building a new Earth / colonizing a planet similar to Earth. A voice-over says that some Reapers are still out there but they have been beaten once so they can be beaten again.

 

So, there you have it. Reapers beaten conventionally by killing their leader and using hit&run tactics but ultimately only 10-25% of them die, so it is kind of realistic. No deus ex machina or Catalyst or whatever needed. And many sacrificements (Palavan/Thessia, maybe Quarians vs Geth) and dramatic moments too. That's how I would have made ME3 if I was in charge.

[themikefest]

I think a conventional victory could have been possible and worked well in the game but it would require a lot of changes for ME3. Basically it would be a totally different game (much darker).

The reapers win by numbers alone. Here's a post about the possible numbers they have.

Bioware had to make the reapers stupid in ME3 for them to be stopped.

When entering the Sol system, they shutoff the relay - reapers win
the destroyer on Earth destroys the Normandy instead of the two shuttles - reapers win
reapers go to the Citadel first and if the arms are closed, they surround it destroyed any organic ship that comes near the Citadel or tries to leave - reapers win
the reaper on Tuchanka fires its laser horizontally instead of vertically at Shepard - reapers win
the reaper on Rannoch fires its laser horizontally instead of vertically at Shepard - reapers win
they have reapers stationed at the relay when all the fleets enter the system for a surprise attack - reapers win
reapers fire at the crucible destroying it - reapers win
reapers shutoff the beam to the citadel in London. I wouldn't say the reapers win since its possible Shepard could go back to Ilos to see if there's some way to use the conduit again to get on the Citadel to open the arms. That's unlikely to happen, but is an option if the reapers were to of shutoff the beam in London

With the numbers they have, the only way to defeat the reapers is to find the plans to the Crucible, build it and then use it before they enter the galaxy.

The other thing is if a conventional victory was possible it would take a long time. Heck the victory might happen after Shepard dies of old age. The more losses the organics take, the longer the war would take
 

So, there you have it. Reapers beaten conventionally by killing their leader

I would have no problem if that's what it took to stop the reapers. Once Harbinger is destroyed, the other reapers realizing their bossman is gone, stop the harvest and go back to darkspace.
 

and using hit&run tactics but ultimately only 10-25% of them die, so it is kind of realistic. No deus ex machina or Catalyst or whatever needed. And many sacrificements (Palavan/Thessia, maybe Quarians vs Geth) and dramatic moments too. That's how I would have made ME3 if I was in charge.

The hit-and-run idea might work for a short time, but the reapers will adjust and counter those attacks. That means the organics have to adjust as well to use different attacks. It would depend who would be leading these attacks.

 

One of the first things I would do, if a conventional victory is possible, is to have the homeworlds attack the troop transport ships and the processing ships. The people on Illium attacked the troop transport ships instead of the capitals ship slowing the invasion while the reaper waited to have more reaper ground forces to invade

[CYRAX470]

I think a conventional victory could have been possible and worked well in the game but it would require a lot of changes for ME3. Basically it would be a totally different game (much darker).

 

The answer is simple: hit&run tactics. Now the Protheans tried something similar (and even burned/razed their own planets) but this cycle has an advantage that the Protheans didn't have: the Citadel trap didn't work. The galactic government is still in place. The only downside of this tactic is that it requires the galactic races to go full renegade mode and give up complete systems if they have to.

 

But the Reapers in the current cycle made several mistakes and have several flaws. We know they ignore planets with underdeveloped species (Yahg). Hiding for the Reapers is definitely possible (Ilos) and in this cycle the Citadel trap didn't work and they attacked Earth. So the Citadel is still intact. The Reapers also need a lot of time to harvest and it seems like they are not staying together as one fleet but instead spreading out (to the point where one reaper can even be easily isolated like on Rannoch). They are also not immortal, we see many examples where they are actually killed with a relatively small force.

 

Therefore, ME3 could've been something like this (this is just quickly made so it would need some refinements):

- Reapers attack Earth (which turns out to be a fatal mistake), Shepard escapes

- Citadel Council members finally realize that they are idiots

- Citadel is evacuated and blown up, Shepard helps with this (reason why is pretty simple: the Citadel just can't be trusted, who knows perhaps the Reapers use it as a weapon too)

- Like the Quarians, there's now a "Refugee fleet" on the galaxy map which is the new primary game hub to buy/sell stuff. The Council is spread out over multiple systems and tries to organize the war effort

- Mass resources are piled into weapon researching and faster ships. Normandy tech is produced on a larger scale. Maybe some missions where Shepard tries to gather tech (from older cycles? Prothean tech). Shepard is involved in a big war meeting to come up with a plan.

- The plan is basically to use guerilla/hit&run tactics to hit small forces of Reapers as fast and hard as possible (so with a local fleet superiority), then retreat. Some diversionary attacks and information warfare is obviously necessary (think of the RTS game RUSE). This could lead to some pretty cool scenes where a small force sacrifices themselves (maybe with additional projections or largely empty ships to make it seem like a big fleet) as a diversion attack (Captain Kirrahe anyone?).

- Reapers attack Palavan and Thessia. Major choice from Shepard here where you have to give up one of the planets. Expect emotional scenes with Liara and Garrus.

- Perhaps a sacrifice Earth mission (blowing up relay?). It would also be cool if they could somehow trigger a supernova or do something else with the sun to kill Reapers, although that would be kind of similar to the Catalyst weapon.

- I'd say that by this point maybe 25% of the Reapers are killed. If Bioware had someone with military knowledge we could also have some cool scenes like where they use long-range weaponry to kite the Reapers or throw acid in their face with rachni (that ignore the shields).

- Now obviously we need a dramatic moment near the end. Maybe the refugee fleet gets attacked or the galactic fleet is cornered.

- I would let the game end with Shepard boarding Harbinger and ultimately sacrificing himself to blow up Harbinger which makes the leaderless Reapers retreat (because they never had losses like this before and it makes sense that they are afraid at this point).

- Epilogue shows humanity far in the future building a new Earth / colonizing a planet similar to Earth. A voice-over says that some Reapers are still out there but they have been beaten once so they can be beaten again.

 

So, there you have it. Reapers beaten conventionally by killing their leader and using hit&run tactics but ultimately only 10-25% of them die, so it is kind of realistic. No deus ex machina or Catalyst or whatever needed. And many sacrificements (Palavan/Thessia, maybe Quarians vs Geth) and dramatic moments too. That's how I would have made ME3 if I was in charge.

 

All pretty good suggestions I think. Cool stuff, after I finished playing ME2, and the wati for ME3 began, I was always hyped for boarding Harbinger, I thought it was a real possibility.

 

With the number of Reapers presented in ME3, and with Reapers being taken down with normal weapons, I saw conventional victory as possible. There really never seemed to be that much of them to me. When the Turian fleet above Palaven begins to fight back, they're met by what I counted as 6 capital ships. The turians had like...several thousand ships attack 6 Reapers. However the scene looked to portray as the fight as largely pointless. Then with the final battle for Earth, it didn't look like there was that many Reapers again, perhaps 100 or 50? Maybe it's just implied that Reaper capital ships can tank thousands of ships alone? Idk.

 

Had they attacked with the numbers seen at the end of ME2 though...I don't think any victory would have been possible.

[gothpunkboy89]

Nah we were hosed anyway.

 

Mass Relays can be locked down on the quantum level. Which basically causes them to stop functioning. That is why the other council races like the Turians were able to find the Volus. But no one found humans.  The Charon Relay was encased in ice and basically powered off.

 

This would strand entire systems in the reaper's mercy. No way to retreat, no way to resupply.

[AlanC9]

The Reapers also need a lot of time to harvest and it seems like they are not staying together as one fleet but instead spreading out (to the point where one reaper can even be easily isolated like on Rannoch). They are also not immortal, we see many examples where they are actually killed with a relatively small force.

The conceptual problem here, of couse, is that the Reapers have no bases to defend, no timetable to complete the harvest, and can maneuver faster than organic forces. Hit and run tactics world work fine in ME3. For the Reapers. They could appear in overwhelming force, blow up infrastructure, and leave.

The only way to make this work is to rewrite the Reapers to be much weaker in technology. Fewer Reapers wouldn't help, since that would just mean that their sane play is to stay concentrated and pick off organic worlds one by one. (This is a basic problem with the way ME1 set up the lore -- planets are not defensible, and relay transits help the attacker. It's like they read Niven and Pournelle's essay about space warfare, and deliberately did the opposite.)

[bas273]

The reapers win by numbers.....

...... The more losses the organics take, the longer the war would take

 

Agreed. The way the Reapers were written, starting from ME1, pretty much leaves no other option but to make them dumber in ME3. But I think with my suggestion it would be slightly worse than with what we've seen in ME3 (with all those examples you stated and the countless times where the Normandy or Shepard could have been killed). I wouldn't let Shepard kill a reaper on foot for instance (Rannoch).

With my hit&run proposal you could try to make the excuse that the Reapers are simply too arrogant (and who wouldn't be after so many succesful cycles) and therefore underestimate their enemy. Shepard&co win thanks to Sun Tzu .

 

 

I would have no problem if that's what it took to stop the reapers. Once Harbinger is destroyed, the other reapers realizing their bossman is gone, stop the harvest and go back to darkspace.
 

The hit-and-run idea might work for a short time, but the reapers will adjust and counter those attacks. That means the organics have to adjust as well to use different attacks. It would depend who would be leading these attacks.

 

One of the first things I would do, if a conventional victory is possible, is to have the homeworlds attack the troop transport ships and the processing ships. The people on Illium attacked the troop transport ships instead of the capitals ship slowing the invasion while the reaper waited to have more reaper ground forces to invade

 

Well you could write it so that Harbinger is killed before the Reapers had time to adjust.

 

You could also argue that the Reapers will only truly adjust their tactics if they respect their opponents skill. But if they are so convinced of their own superiority then why would they feel the need to change their battle tactics, if it has worked well for them in all previous cycles?

 

Of course the only reason this could work for the galactic community is total commitment to the victory (hence why I mentioned everyone going full Renegade). The Asari fleet for instance might have to give up their homeworld and instead fight on Palaven, just to get a minor victory and kill some Reaper destroyers. That'll take some pretty strong belief to convince them (which could be Shepard's job).

 

Good suggestion about the transports.

 

 

With the number of Reapers presented in ME3, and with Reapers being taken down with normal weapons, I saw conventional victory as possible. There really never seemed to be that much of them to me. When the Turian fleet above Palaven begins to fight back, they're met by what I counted as 6 capital ships. The turians had like...several thousand ships attack 6 Reapers. However the scene looked to portray as the fight as largely pointless. Then with the final battle for Earth, it didn't look like there was that many Reapers again, perhaps 100 or 50? Maybe it's just implied that Reaper capital ships can tank thousands of ships alone? Idk.

 

Had they attacked with the numbers seen at the end of ME2 though...I don't think any victory would have been possible.

 

The thing is, if you read Sun Tzu (maybe you have), numbers alone don't guarantee victory.

 

If the Reapers stayed together then there would be other possibilities of victory. The Reapers could then only attack one system at a time, let's say they attack Earth (I realize that the sensible choice would be to go for the Citadel and that would lead to the same defeat as the Protheans suffered, but we need them to make at least one mistake to make a conventional victory possible the way Bioware wrote them). Perhaps the other galactic races could blow up the relay near Pluto, cure the genophage and mass produce krogans, fast research new weapons / frigates that could go toe-to-toe with the reapers... the possibilities are endless. So as long as the Citadel isn't crippled it would be a bad move by the Reapers to stick together because they would be giving all the other races/planets a lot of time to improvise/adapt.

 

Now if the Reapers spread out (like they do), then they might have a huge superiority in numbers and technology but this superiority can be neglected in small-scale battles. Like the one Reaper on Rannoch that was defeated by the Quarian Fleet. With hit&run fast strikes a large fleet could attack smaller forces of Reapers and then flee. After enough time the odds would be a bit better.

 

 

Nah we were hosed anyway.

 

Mass Relays can be locked down on the quantum level. Which basically causes them to stop functioning. That is why the other council races like the Turians were able to find the Volus. But no one found humans.  The Charon Relay was encased in ice and basically powered off.

 

This would strand entire systems in the reaper's mercy. No way to retreat, no way to resupply.

 

True. I'm just saying that a victory that makes more sense than ME3 would've been possible. It would still require a suspense of disbelief but this is space opera we are talking about, so that is required anyway.

 

The conceptual problem here, of couse, is that the Reapers have no bases to defend, no timetable to complete the harvest, and can maneuver faster than organic forces. Hit and run tactics world work fine in ME3. For the Reapers. They could appear in overwhelming force, blow up infrastructure, and leave.

The only way to make this work is to rewrite the Reapers to be much weaker in technology. Fewer Reapers wouldn't help, since that would just mean that their sane play is to stay concentrated and pick off organic worlds one by one. (This is a basic problem with the way ME1 set up the lore -- planets are not defensible, and relay transits help the attacker. It's like they read Niven and Pournelle's essay about space warfare, and deliberately did the opposite.)

 

I agree that the Reapers requiring (almost) no logistics is a major advantage.

 

However, do we know for sure that they are faster? Sovereign didn't seem to fly that fast in ME1 and small-size frigates like the Normandy or fighters seem to outrun the Reapers. Okay if you scan too many planets on the galaxy map the Reapers can outrun the Normandy but that's just a silly gameplay mechanic.

 

Plus the council races do have some time to adapt (especially if the Reapers stay concentrated). Perhaps new technologies could be researched that focus on faster (and smaller) ships with extreme long-range weapons (that bypass shields). The Reapers seem large and slow and it doesn't look like they have long-range weapons. It is pretty silly anyway that in the entire trilogy the same weapons are always used (rail guns). Even modern-day tanks have many different types of slugs that they can use for different purposes, like anti-armor or high-explosive. It seems likely that future battle ships in space would have many different guns and ammunition and could also throw some kind of acid into the Reaper's faces (to bypass shields), shoot larger projectiles instead of smaller ones (and slower so the kinetic barrier doesn't work), etc.

 

I agree that planets are not defensible. On the whole the military side of things was very underwhelming in ME3. During every battle on/for Earth I kept thinking: today's military would be more effective in taking down the Reapers than what we see in-game, which is set so far in the future.

 

All we get is the M-920 Cain (which fires only a 25-gram slug) and some very slow ships that apparantly are our future fighter jets. Where are the EMP's, heavy battle tanks, submarines, futuristic fighter jets, lasers from space, human triggered earthquakes and tsunamis, acid bombs, chemical warfare, advanced nukes, etcetera? The war with the Turians should've triggered an arms race that would have turned Earth into a fortress. I get it that the Reapers are more advanced than we are but it doesn't make sense that we only see such crappy weapons/defences in ME3.

 

[Esthlos]

Very nice suggestions!

Might I add that one of the main reasons for which the Reapers always hit the Citadel first in the other cycles was to get the demographics and details of every race in that cycle?
(This is actually stated in the games; in ME1, if I recall correctly)

It is possible that they didn't rush the Citadel this time not just for stupidity, but because they assumed that this cycle had made the sensible choice already and purged that critical info from the Citadel when Sovereign first attacked.
(They could also have assumed that since the Keepers' control was disrupted, then either this cycle or the Protheans had also managed to cut off the Citadel's relay-network-shut-down switch, which added to the previous assumption would make taking the Citadel a worthless effort this time in the Reapers' eyes)

What this also means is that the Reapers have close to no info on the races, except what is publicly known so well that the Collectors could have come to know too.
What this means is that Reapers hitting the supply lines would actually be very hard, simply because they have close to no idea of where they are, what kind of things they bring, and even their mode in the first place!

Do the cycle races need supplies at all?
If so, of what kind?
What does every race eat?
Is it something that can be farmed in space?
Does it need transportation? Of what kind?
Are there specialized ships or means of supply?
Are they large freighters or small transport drones? Maybe both? Or something else they have not considered?
What is the life span of the races?
Blowing up their planets will actually doom them or do they have all they need on their fleets?

Without the info from the Citadel, the Reapers actually know none of the answers to these (and many other) questions.

After all, knowing your enemy better than he does you is half of the victory.

[Reorte]

Depending on the playthrough, the only ones to die is Ashley/Kaidan on Virmire and edi when choosing destroy. If the player chooses control or synthesis, it would only be Ashley/Kaidan that died.

How does that work out? Mordin surviving surely requires Wrex dying - or can you not recruit him in ME1 and never hear from him again? Is my thinking that you can not recruit Thane in ME2 and therefore not hear from him right too?

[themikefest]

How does that work out? Mordin surviving surely requires Wrex dying - or can you not recruit him in ME1 and never hear from him again? Is my thinking that you can not recruit Thane in ME2 and therefore not hear from him right too?

Don't recruit Wrex, Thane and sell or don't activate the geth from the derelict reaper and deleting the data during Mordin's loyalty mission

[AlanC9]

Or never do Mordin's mission at all, though that will require a perfect HTL score.