234 réponses à ce sujet

[Dantriges]

The problem are the kinetic barriers? They haven´t hit the hull of Sovereign because of them. Dunno, perhaps they are of equal strength on each side and deplete together. Or they hit the barrier at the front and now it´s down to 98% strength and if they start at the back now, they are at 100% there. Sovereign went down like a wimp after his shields went down after all. Perhaps its armor is weaker on the back but the armor they know, is only there to catach energy hits anyways. Ok, it could have been a mistake assuming that Sovereign´s armor works the same, OTOH it didn´t matter until the barriers were gone and well why stop shooting and move around when you don´t know, if the armor will be a problem and movable parts can´t be armored as well as a long flat plane anyways.

[bunch1]

I just had a thought, why don't any of the species convert their civilian fleets to military use.  I mean, sure, a 400 meter cargo freighter with a strapped on spinal mounted mac gun wouldn't stand a chance in a normal battle and even 10 to 1 likely wouldn't even be able to take 1 true warship with next to no armor or barriers but considering that nothing short of a dreadnought kinetic barrier can even survive 1 shot all the time and money spent on protecting a ship is really just a wast.  And considering just how fast the Quarrians were able to arm their entire civilian fleet, 50,000 ships with most being unarmed civilian craft, with scraps in space it can't take that long before the citadel races could be fielding fleets of tens of thousands cruiser and dreadnought glass cannons.  We have accounts of turians jumping dreadnoughts right into reaper formations and destroying several capital ships at point blank range before the reapers are able to bring their guns to bear so if they could convert hundreds or thousands of bulk freighters and start pumping out unprotected ships with no other purpose then to fire 5 or 6 dreadnought shots before they get nuked they may be able to fight a war of attrition. 

 

Do I think organics would win the war?  No, not this cycle, but by no means would I say that Reapers are guaranteed to win every cycle.  One cycle with a massive cold war fleet building race may stand a chance in a fight or where a specious got space born 6 or 7 thousand years before the harvest could surpass the reapers in tech.

[Gaaxure]

Two words: Fire ships. Well, not really but something to the same effect. Nuke ships to be exact. Say what you want nukes are devastating weapon, although using them in a conventional way would be completely useless, because Reapers are spread out all over the galaxy. So we need a plan to maximize the damage and inflict crippling causalities.

 

Here's how: You start buliding up armada - biggest one galaxy has ever seen, everything it has right now. The fleet has to be an incredibly tempting yet formidable enough target so it mandates response in force not solitary/small taskforce of reapers to take it out. Keep employing hit-and-run tactics against biggest targets you can easily overcome without putting fleet in considerable harm's way. This will force reapers to do one of  two things:

 

a) break into smaller groups to limit their casualties and effectiveness of your attacks. (in this case you'll pick them off one by one drawing out the war but eventually getting there). But this just so much of a crazy incompetent strategy from a superior force, I'm not even sure how you'd categorize it. Reverse a-symmetric warfare?

 

more likely they'll start coming after you in large numbers trying to steamroll you. Continue Hit and runs until Reaper task-forces get large enough  for it to be called a decisive battle. This is when you stop running and throw a punch. When battle is joined make it look like you're playing it for keeps. In the fleet you'll have handful of nuke-rigged vessels on collison course with the capital ships. Keep fighting long enough for them to get close enough to do some damage. Once the fire ships are in range you spool up your FTLs and bolt out of there. Leaving the reapers to deal with the surprise.

 

Now, nukes are devastating enough in their own right, but the main thing here is they also have one(well more than one actually) nasty side effect - the EMP that shorts out all electric circuits. So if Reapers don't have some gunpowder operated cannons on their boards they're pretty much screwed. You can swoop back in and enjoy the skeet shoot.

[bunch1]

Two words: Fire ships. Well, not really but something to the same effect. Nuke ships to be exact. Say what you want nukes are devastating weapon, although using them in a conventional way would be completely useless, because Reapers are spread out all over the galaxy. So we need a plan to maximize the damage and inflict crippling causalities.

 

Here's how: You start buliding up armada - biggest one galaxy has ever seen, everything it has right now. The fleet has to be an incredibly tempting yet formidable enough target so it mandates response in force not solitary/small taskforce of reapers to take it out. Keep employing hit-and-run tactics against biggest targets you can easily overcome without putting fleet in considerable harm's way. This will force reapers to do one of  two things:

 

a) break into smaller groups to limit their casualties and effectiveness of your attacks. (in this case you'll pick them off one by one drawing out the war but eventually getting there). But this just so much of a crazy incompetent strategy from a superior force, I'm not even sure how you'd categorize it. Reverse a-symmetric warfare?

 

more likely they'll start coming after you in large numbers trying to steamroll you. Continue Hit and runs until Reaper task-forces get large enough  for it to be called a decisive battle. This is when you stop running and throw a punch. When battle is joined make it look like you're playing it for keeps. In the fleet you'll have handful of nuke-rigged vessels on collison course with the capital ships. Keep fighting long enough for them to get close enough to do some damage. Once the fire ships are in range you spool up your FTLs and bolt out of there. Leaving the reapers to deal with the surprise.

 

Now, nukes are devastating enough in their own right, but the main thing here is they also have one(well more than one actually) nasty side effect - the EMP that shorts out all electric circuits. So if Reapers don't have some gunpowder operated cannons on their boards they're pretty much screwed. You can swoop back in and enjoy the skeet shoot.

It's a good theory but I see some things wrong with it.

 

1.The asari tried using hit and run attacks on the reapers when they attacked thessia and the reapers couldn't catch them so they simply ignored them and continued to focus on asari worlds forcing them to either defend them or let their people die.  This same tacit would be used against any hit and run force because any raid force is going to give the reapers the advantage of numbers in addition to their advantages in rage, firepower, and defense meaning they can just destroy the organic fleet piece meal with they attack an entire reaper armada without having to leave a harvest in progress.

 

2.We don't know how well shielded the electronics are on a council war ship is let alone a reaper.  All of these races are aware of nukes, the Krogan practically wiped themselves out with a nuclear war before the roman empire was even founded.  So if nuke emp blast was an effective tool it would be used by the council races, if not earth.  Why wouldn't 1 or 2 frigates enter a system first and detonate a nuke with the rest of the fleet just following in and wiping out whatever is left?  This tactic isn't used at the battle of the citadel, or geth in ME3, not at the battle of earth, battle of palaven, battle of thesisa, or even against Cerberus's station so in game evidence would say that no military leader finds it a realistic tactic.

 

3.Beyond that the range of the blast in space would be problematic as massive fleets are spread over hundreds of thousands of sq kilometers if not more.

 

4.Their may already be nuclear explosions in these battles without emp educing blackouts.  Ezo cores are how we think of the ships power, like a warp drive in star trek but they really aren't.  The ezo core only creates mass effect fields, and those only when electricity is passed through it.  To create a field large enough to move a dreadnought at ftl speeds as well as provide power to all of the other ships systems like the 1 or 2 massive mac cannons that run down the spine or the unknown number that form the broadsides as well as all the guardian lasers and ecm arrays and ships computers you are talking massive power plant.  I can't recall if it's mention in the games codex or anywhere else but I feel like they are using fission or fusion plants to generate that power so when a frigate, cruiser, carrier, or dreadnought is destroyed their may well be a nuclear explosion amongst the wreckage.

[Gaaxure]

It's a good theory but I see some things wrong with it.

 

1.The asari tried using hit and run attacks on the reapers when they attacked thessia and the reapers couldn't catch them so they simply ignored them and continued to focus on asari worlds forcing them to either defend them or let their people die.  This same tacit would be used against any hit and run force because any raid force is going to give the reapers the advantage of numbers in addition to their advantages in rage, firepower, and defense meaning they can just destroy the organic fleet piece meal with they attack an entire reaper armada without having to leave a harvest in progress.

 

2.We don't know how well shielded the electronics are on a council war ship is let alone a reaper.  All of these races are aware of nukes, the Krogan practically wiped themselves out with a nuclear war before the roman empire was even founded.  So if nuke emp blast was an effective tool it would be used by the council races, if not earth.  Why wouldn't 1 or 2 frigates enter a system first and detonate a nuke with the rest of the fleet just following in and wiping out whatever is left?  This tactic isn't used at the battle of the citadel, or geth in ME3, not at the battle of earth, battle of palaven, battle of thesisa, or even against Cerberus's station so in game evidence would say that no military leader finds it a realistic tactic.

 

3.Beyond that the range of the blast in space would be problematic as massive fleets are spread over hundreds of thousands of sq kilometers if not more.

 

4.Their may already be nuclear explosions in these battles without emp educing blackouts.  Ezo cores are how we think of the ships power, like a warp drive in star trek but they really aren't.  The ezo core only creates mass effect fields, and those only when electricity is passed through it.  To create a field large enough to move a dreadnought at ftl speeds as well as provide power to all of the other ships systems like the 1 or 2 massive mac cannons that run down the spine or the unknown number that form the broadsides as well as all the guardian lasers and ecm arrays and ships computers you are talking massive power plant.  I can't recall if it's mention in the games codex or anywhere else but I feel like they are using fission or fusion plants to generate that power so when a frigate, cruiser, carrier, or dreadnought is destroyed their may well be a nuclear explosion amongst the wreckage.

 

I would present counter-arguments if I may.

 

1)Yeah, hit & run won't work if you turn it into full blown battle, to cover civilian evacuation. We're in this to win so sentiments like "civilian casualties" & "women and children first" don't matter. Hit & run attacks should be focused on Reapers(the large ships) themselves not their mooks. Given Reaper's ability to turn your own people into weapons this should take prerogative, mooks can be easily replaced, Reaper ships - not so much... Since We're talking theoretical here: If we agree that they can be defeated in battle, it's just a numbers game after that. And I think by now we all know they can be killed, developing a tactical know-how is just a matter of military expertise. 

 

2)Usually when you're nuking something the EMP is your last concern, due to sheer destructive force of the explosion and the radiation fallout. Moreover this is pretty extreme tactic, the one only "do or die" situations demand. Using it at the battle of citaldel would be unwarranted solely on the basis that conventional methods were sufficient to get the job done. Not to mention that nuking the citadel would be a catastrophe of an unimaginable scale.

 

Per one or two frigates disabling the Reaper's system task-force: That seems counterproductive, for number of reasons. First - you don't want to nuke planets you're supposed to live on after the war's over. Second - Planet's a pretty big place, Reapers would be spread out on the wide area. you'll need a lot of nukes to get the desired results and nukes aren't exactly easy to come by.

 

3)Space battles on the other hand, from what we've seen so far they more resemble a WWII era dogfight, rather than a naval engagements(Seems stupid to me, but hey, those are facts.) And take place in a surprisingly tight packed, close quarters. Nuke detonation here would ensure maximum casualties per explosion.

 

 

4)If Repers have anything that uses electricity(and if laws of physics still apply) EMP will fry them. After that doesn't really matters if the thing producing the energy is still there there'll be nothing to send that electricity to. Think of it this way imagine if you still had your higher brain functions but were paralyzed.

 

 

As a side note I'd like to add that I think this whole discussion/thread is exercise in futility. Reapers have god mode enabled - they have writers on their side, pretty much anything you come up with that would be a viable tactic/strategy IRL they'll just come up with some mcguffin that negates it all.

 

 

 

 

Edit: I'd also like to say that evacuating civilians seems pointless and counterproductive to war effort for me, since Reaper objective isn't to conquer the worlds it's to harvest everyone and even if you succeed in evacuating the planet reapers will just abandon it and go after civvy fleets. Or at least they should if their command authority really cares about achieving their operational goals.

Modifié par Gaaxure, 27 novembre 2015 - 08:28 .

[Iakus]

 

2.We don't know how well shielded the electronics are on a council war ship is let alone a reaper.  All of these races are aware of nukes, the Krogan practically wiped themselves out with a nuclear war before the roman empire was even founded.  So if nuke emp blast was an effective tool it would be used by the council races, if not earth.  Why wouldn't 1 or 2 frigates enter a system first and detonate a nuke with the rest of the fleet just following in and wiping out whatever is left?  This tactic isn't used at the battle of the citadel, or geth in ME3, not at the battle of earth, battle of palaven, battle of thesisa, or even against Cerberus's station so in game evidence would say that no military leader finds it a realistic tactic.

 

We know nukes are a concern of the Reapers because they specifically target nuclear sites in their invasion of Earth.

 

Nukes are a consideration not just for the emp, but because kinetic barriers don't do squat against it.  

 

The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers does not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.  

 

Therefore, nuclear weapons would be an excellent means of "leveling the playing field"

 

Why weren't they used?  because "THE REAPERS CANNOT BE DEFEATED CONVENTIONALLY!!! OH NOES!!!!"  

[Dantriges]

Don´t you need a planetary magnetic field or an atmosphere to generate an EMP blast?

[Gaaxure]

Don´t you need a pnatary magnetic field or an atmosphere to generate an EMP blast?

I'm not sure. But why would you?

 

 

EDIT: Never mind found out you do need Planetary magnetic field to utilize nuke's EMP.

 

However different kind of EMP works perfectly.

There's some interesting info about the subject here: http://www.projectrh...egunconvent.php

Modifié par Gaaxure, 28 novembre 2015 - 12:53 .

[Iakus]

Don´t you need a pnatary magnetic field or an atmosphere to generate an EMP blast?

From a nuclear blast, yeah.  But the effect can be rather powerful  and could potentially mess up any Reapers on teh surface (heat and radiation notwishtanding as well)

 

But out in space you'd "only" have the explosion and raidiation to work with.  But then if you really want an EMP, there are alternatives

[bunch1]

We know nukes are a concern of the Reapers because they specifically target nuclear sites in their invasion of Earth.

 

Nukes are a consideration not just for the emp, but because kinetic barriers don't do squat against it.  

 

The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers does not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.  

 

Therefore, nuclear weapons would be an excellent means of "leveling the playing field"

 

Why weren't they used?  because "THE REAPERS CANNOT BE DEFEATED CONVENTIONALLY!!! OH NOES!!!!"  

It could be that reapers target nuke sites so they can't be used on the population.  If we can't win we at least won't let you mentality may have been used by a specious in the past who practiced self genocide to deny the reapers victory.  I'm not saying that is the reason but it could be 1 factor.

 

The radiation of the nuke isn't going to bother machines and even if the barriers don't do squat we don't know what hardware is installed around vital systems on a reaper.  They are hundreds if not thousands of years more advanced then we are today with access to materials we don't know about so we can't simply say a nuke emp would down them in droves. 

 

If a nuke could hit a reaper I have no doubt the result would be devastating to that dreadnought/destroyer, we are told about such strikes in the codex as being deployed by soldiers to grounded reapers, but you will likely have the same issue delivering the payload as with regular torpedoes and getting them shot down and deploying them with other ships will expose those ships and crews to both the reapers and the nukes effects.

[Gaaxure]

we don't know what hardware is installed around vital systems on a reaper.

 

Well, actually we do. You were inside of one, remember?

[Iakus]

It could be that reapers target nuke sites so they can't be used on the population.  If we can't win we at least won't let you mentality may have been used by a specious in the past who practiced self genocide to deny the reapers victory.  I'm not saying that is the reason but it could be 1 factor.

 

The radiation of the nuke isn't going to bother machines and even if the barriers don't do squat we don't know what hardware is installed around vital systems on a reaper.  They are hundreds if not thousands of years more advanced then we are today with access to materials we don't know about so we can't simply say a nuke emp would down them in droves. 

 

If a nuke could hit a reaper I have no doubt the result would be devastating to that dreadnought/destroyer, we are told about such strikes in the codex as being deployed by soldiers to grounded reapers, but you will likely have the same issue delivering the payload as with regular torpedoes and getting them shot down and deploying them with other ships will expose those ships and crews to both the reapers and the nukes effects.

Radiation does have effects on nonorganic materials.  Metal becomes brittle, for example.  I'm not going to pretend to know how much radiation would be needed, however.

 

But also keep in mind Reapers have organic components as well.

 

As for nukes, part of the beauty of them is you don't have to hit a Reaper.  Like grenades, close counts.  A nuclear explosion in space would permeate even further than in an atmosphere. And torpedoes can be built without concern for keeping organics in mind:  no need for life support, screw artificial gravity, Just slap a VI on it and get it as close as you can.  

 

Or if you want something more focused, a bomb-pumped laser

[bunch1]

Radiation does have effects on nonorganic materials.  Metal becomes brittle, for example.  I'm not going to pretend to know how much radiation would be needed, however.

 

But also keep in mind Reapers have organic components as well.

 

As for nukes, part of the beauty of them is you don't have to hit a Reaper.  Like grenades, close counts.  A nuclear explosion in space would permeate even further than in an atmosphere. And torpedoes can be built without concern for keeping organics in mind:  no need for life support, screw artificial gravity, Just slap a VI on it and get it as close as you can.  

 

Or if you want something more focused, a bomb-pumped laser

The question is how close it has to explode to do real damage.  If the cyclops or guardian lasers or whatever they call their point defense system are capable of destroying them before they get close enough to do damage it's just a waste of resources.  This is why organics use fighters to bring torpedoes into range of capital ships but that would leave the fighters exposed to defense fire as well as any after effects of the detonation.

[Iakus]

Like I said, VI-controlled torpedoes for evasive action.  Not to mention saturation attacks.

 

And the reason why torpedoes have to be launched at such short range is the slow acceleration they have due to their increased mass.  Torpedoes would presumably be lighter and more agile, not depending on punching through kinetic barriers, but by depositing a payload that can completely ignore them.

[Fayfel]

"...all ships use optical computers rather than electronic circuits. Optical systems are not affected by EMP. Once optical systems are developed, electronics won't be used in spacecraft, for the simple fact that stars and other cosmic phenomena routinely produce EMP effects. There's a reason NASA sweats when the shuttle's in orbit during a solar flare."

 

A quote from Chris L'Etoile, the man who basically created the Mass Effect universe. If you could reach the old forums you'd also have access to a plethora of posts detailing exactly why nukes and missiles are useless in space combat. Basically gardian defenses are more than capable of shooting anything down and worst case scenario you can always FTL away.

 

A conventional victory probably would have been more or less possible in the earlier vision of the MEU. The Council races were vastly more powerful ( each, at the very least, hundreds of times more powerful than humanity ), and the geth even more so. While the Reapers were also significantly stronger, they were still stuck and it wasn't a trivial stuck - they couldn't just cruise over in a few years when they felt like it. Their local forces could have been defeated and if they managed to activate the Citadel relay, a united galaxy would have been able to put up one hell of a speed bump. Just enough delay for a certain someone to make all the difference. But you'll have to find that one on your own.

[Dantriges]

EDIT: Never mind found out you do need Planetary magnetic field to utilize nuke's EMP.

 

However different kind of EMP works perfectly.

There's some interesting info about the subject here: http://www.projectrh...egunconvent.php

 

Ah thanks.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I think it probably is, just because the Reapers have been doing this for thousands and thousands of cycles. Any political means (uniting all the species) or conventional technological means (especially powerful guns, missiles, etc.) would have already been tried at some point in previous cycles and failed, so I can't easily believe that this cycle would somehow succeed by doing one or both of these things just a little bit better than anybody else ever did. Something like the Crucible - a superweapon designed and improved across multiple cycles - was probably the only way out unless the writers wanted to let Shepard or anyone else convince the Catalyst that it's simply flat-out wrong in its assumptions.

[Iakus]

I think it probably is, just because the Reapers have been doing this for thousands and thousands of cycles. Any political means (uniting all the species) or conventional technological means (especially powerful guns, missiles, etc.) would have already been tried at some point in previous cycles and failed, so I can't easily believe that this cycle would somehow succeed by doing one or both of these things just a little bit better than anybody else ever did. Something like the Crucible - a superweapon designed and improved across multiple cycles - was probably the only way out unless the writers wanted to let Shepard or anyone else convince the Catalyst that it's simply flat-out wrong in its assumptions.

This cycle was united.  They had the use of the mass relays and could support each other.  A benefit that has not been seen before.  

 

The Reason the Reapers had such an easy time of it in the past was they hit the Citadel first, decapitate any galactic government, and shut down the relay network for anyone but themselves.  Thus they can hit each system with overwhelming force while for the system, the nearest help is hours or days away even if there is any within range at all.

 

But this time, the Reapers decided to hit every single race more or less simultaneously while leaving them able to organize and support each other.  For reasons I guess.

[Reorte]

I just had a thought, why don't any of the species convert their civilian fleets to military use.  I mean, sure, a 400 meter cargo freighter with a strapped on spinal mounted mac gun wouldn't stand a chance in a normal battle and even 10 to 1 likely wouldn't even be able to take 1 true warship with next to no armor or barriers but considering that nothing short of a dreadnought kinetic barrier can even survive 1 shot all the time and money spent on protecting a ship is really just a wast.

There's more to defence than just being able to take hits. Not getting hit in the first place is a big part of it, so the ability to manouevre and, probably more importantly, sensors. Then there's the power requirements needed for something like this, as well as whatever strengthening of the hull is required for the weapons. By the time you've got something useful you may not have much more than if you'd started a dedicated warship from scratch. The quarian Liveships might've been big enough to have had the power and strength to carry some big guns. They'd still have been very vulnerable but I suppose the idea could've been that the proper warships would keep the enemy too busy to attack the Liveships whilst they lined up their shots. That's not a method of mass producing useful stuff fast though.

All purely speculation of course.

[FlyingSquirrel]

This cycle was united.  They had the use of the mass relays and could support each other.  A benefit that has not been seen before.  

 

The Reason the Reapers had such an easy time of it in the past was they hit the Citadel first, decapitate any galactic government, and shut down the relay network for anyone but themselves.  Thus they can hit each system with overwhelming force while for the system, the nearest help is hours or days away even if there is any within range at all.

 

But this time, the Reapers decided to hit every single race more or less simultaneously while leaving them able to organize and support each other.  For reasons I guess.

 

We know they hit the Citadel first in the Prothean cycle, but have they *always* done that? I suppose if they always did, and if the events of ME1/2 were what prevented them from accessing the Citadel right away, then perhaps this cycle had an advantage that none of the previous ones did.

[Reorte]

We know they hit the Citadel first in the Prothean cycle, but have they *always* done that? I suppose if they always did, and if the events of ME1/2 were what prevented them from accessing the Citadel right away, then perhaps this cycle had an advantage that none of the previous ones did.

There have been so many cycles it's a bit hard to swallow that that should be the one big advantage, and that losing the Citadel (if they ever even found it) would be such a crippling blow to the rest. Half a dozen cycles and I could've accepted that.

[Gago]

 

Conventional victory: is it really impossible?

Yes. 

[Josjie]

Nukes are one thing. But there's more that could be done.

- Acid. The Reaper's main defence seems to be their kinetic barriers. Why not throw large amounts of acid over them? Or use acid missiles. Surely that should do some major damage.

- Blowing up the Alpha Relay with a not-so-large asteroid seemed pretty easy in the Arrival DLC. Why not do this more often? A supernova in a system filled with a lot of Reapers doesn't seem like a bad idea. Sure, setting the project up will take some time and there's a risk of indoctrinated agents betraying the plan, but the same is true for the Crucible. It seems more plausible for ME3's endgame to lure the Reapers to a system and then blow up the relay then the whole Crucible plot. Or perhaps sacrifice the Sol system and blow up the Sol relay.

- Hack them. Honestly I would've preferred some kind of hacking plot with help from the Geth to ME3's plot. Wouldn't it be cool if the Reapers are finally defeated because of the help of synthetics?

- Infiltrate them. Ok this is a silly idea but why not build a replication Reaper with a good VI?

- Indoctrinate them with vids of Shepard dancing.

[Iakus]

We know they hit the Citadel first in the Prothean cycle, but have they *always* done that? I suppose if they always did, and if the events of ME1/2 were what prevented them from accessing the Citadel right away, then perhaps this cycle had an advantage that none of the previous ones did.

They sure managed to grab the Citadel without a problem in ME3's endgame.

[von uber]

They sure managed to grab the Citadel without a problem in ME3's endgame.

Yeah eventually, when the plot conveniently needed them to do so.
As has often been pointed out, Mass Effect 3 should have been over within a week with the Reapers heading straight to the Citadel and taking it, then turning off the relays.

OR - and this is just crazy I know - say there had been one master AI on the citadel that could have done it itself. That would have worked.