234 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

Yeah eventually, when the plot conveniently needed them to do so.
As has often been pointed out, Mass Effect 3 should have been over within a week with the Reapers heading straight to the Citadel and taking it, then turning off the relays.

OR - and this is just crazy I know - say there had been one master AI on the citadel that could have done it itself. That would have worked.

 

That's ultimately my defense on why the lore about Reaper strength doesn't automatically disqualify CV, the game up to that point has already been inconsistent about the Reapers' actual strength. To me, at least, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

[Iakus]

That's ultimately my defense on why the lore about Reaper strength doesn't automatically disqualify CV, the game up to that point has already been inconsistent about the Reapers' actual strength. To me, at least, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

 

Nothing in the game is impossible.  And at the same time, nothing is possible.

 

Everything that happens or can happen depends on what the writers require at a given moment.  What was impossible before becomes possible if they managed to write themselves into a corner and need a solution.  And what was possible may become impossible because more drama is needed.

 

it's all completely artificial

[Fixers0]

I for one, hope we get to see a return of squad, IE: being able to equip squadmates and players with the same sets of armor and having acces to all armor sets also available to npc's. I always disliked that in ME2 and ME3 the shepard was restricted to exclusive sets of armor that nobody else in the galaxy uses. Even in ME3 there are no less then three cerberus armors and not one Alliance armor, which doesn't make any sense.

[voteDC]

Even in ME3 there are no less then three cerberus armors and not one Alliance armor, which doesn't make any sense.

Sadly it makes perfect sense as Bioware seems to have a mad-on for Cerberus. The spin-off media shows how awesome Bioware thinks that the Cerberus group is.

After all why have armours for the group that represents all the nations of Earth and wants cooperation with the other races of the Galaxy, when the absolutely awesome racist group of Cerberus is about.

[Gaaxure]

It just hit me. I know it would be unthinkable and cause a lot of controversy, but wouldn't blowing Charon relay up, after Reapers "kidnap" citadel basically destroy the bulk of the Reaper forces, and their general, if you will, thus seriously crippling their offensive capabilities? Solar system and earth would be gone sure, but seriously this is too good of an opportunity to pass up.

[Iakus]

It just hit me. I know it would be unthinkable and cause a lot of controversy, but wouldn't blowing Charon relay up, after Reapers "kidnap" citadel basically destroy the bulk of the Reaper forces, and their general, if you will, thus seriously crippling their offensive capabilities? Solar system and earth would be gone sure, but seriously this is too good of an opportunity to pass up.

Unlikely, since the Reapers could ftl away from any incoming explosion.  They'd have to have zero warning of what is coming.  And unless the Reapers were complete idiots, they'd have some kind of monitoring system on the relay.

 

But then, I am ascribing logic and rational behavior to their tactics 

[Gaaxure]

Unlikely, since the Reapers could ftl away from any incoming explosion.  They'd have to have zero warning of what is coming.  And unless the Reapers were complete idiots, they'd have some kind of monitoring system on the relay.

 

But then, I am ascribing logic and rational behavior to their tactics 

Distraction and/or surprise covert attack could do the trick.

[Han Shot First]

Yes.

 

The Reapers' had too much of a technological edge over the Council forces for their defeat to be believable without the use of a superweapon. Quantity of course can sometimes be a quality all its own, but the Council forces didn't even seem to have a qualitative advantage at all. If the Council fleets did field more ships, it certainly wasn't by anything approaching a significant margin. A conventional victory being anything but impossible would strain suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point. In order for the Reapers to lose the war through conventional means, significant story changes have to happen with the first two Mass Effect games. 

 

There is also nothing inherently wrong with using a superweapon to wrap up the story, either from a storytelling perspective, or from a historical one. A superweapon doesn't have to be contrived, and the most destructive war in human history was ended with a superweapon. The problems with the Crucible and the endings were flaws in how they were written, not with the concept of a superweapon itself.

 

The devs had the right idea in using a superweapon to wrap up ME3. It just needed a complete rewrite and for some of the lead writers' word babies to get introduced to the airlock.

[themikefest]

Blowing up the relay wouldn't do much. The reapers would out run the blast. Some might be destroyed, but most would likely be ok. I read a post from someone, however long ago, who counted around 100 capital ships above Earth.  No idea how many reapers are on Earth. So even if all those reapers including the ones on Earth were destroyed, there's still the reapers that need to be dealt with in the rest of the galaxy.

 

The other thing is that the Citadel  might be severely damaged so that the crucible would never be used. All that building would be wasted. Would the blast be enough to destroy the catalyst causing the reapers to stop the harvest? Don't know. No one at the time knew that the catalyst controlled the reapers until Shepard meets the thing and it tells Shepard that it controls the reapers.

 

I would say destroying the relay would only cause minimal damage to the reapers. It would be a waste.

[Dantriges]

Distraction and/or surprise covert attack could do the trick.

 

There was a codex entry about hitting a mass relay with a ship, which doesn´t work. You drop out of FTL, if you come too close.

[Gaaxure]

The reapers would out run the blast.

I don't see how. Unless they knew it was coming beforehand.

 

The other thing is that the Citadel might be severely damaged so that the crucible would never be used.

The whole point of building the crucible was to end the Reapers with one fell swoop. Blowing up the Charon serves the same exact purpose. Furthermore, after defeat of this scale the scattered Reaper forces should present no actual threat to the united armada of the galaxy and should they assemble into a big enough fleet to become a threat - Hey, if it ain't broke don't fix it, another mass relay bites the dust.

 

There was a codex entry about hitting a mass relay with a ship, which doesn´t work. You drop out of FTL, if you come too close.

So? I'm not saying you should do it peek-out-of-cover-headshot-he's-dead style, it's not like Reapers are sitting at the mass relay bottlenecking incoming forces.

[Han Shot First]

I don't see how. Unless they knew it was coming beforehand.

 

 

The particles and debris of the blast would be travelling at or below the speed of light. A ship at FTL would be able to outrun it. 

 

The only way the destruction of a Mass Effect relay could be used to destroy the Reapers was if the series had the Council species weaponize the Mass Effect. If they could use the Mass Effect to increase the mass of enemy vessels, they could either prevent them from reaching FTL or dropping them out of it. Of course in order to do that, any ships with weapons that utilize the mass effect would also have to sacrifice themselves to tie down the Reapers.

[themikefest]

The whole point of building the crucible was to end the Reapers with one fell swoop.

True. Though no one knew that until Vendetta mentions the crucible and Citadel work together to spread its bags of goodies throughout the galaxy with the help of the relays
 

Blowing up the Charon serves the same exact purpose.

No it doesn't. It only destroys the reapers in that system if they don't avoid the shockwave
 

Furthermore, after defeat of this scale the scattered Reaper forces should present no actual threat to the united armada of the galaxy and should they assemble into a big enough fleet to become a threat - Hey, if it ain't broke don't fix it, another mass relay bites the dust.

That won't work. The reapers win by numbers alone. Even if all the reapers above Earth and on Earth were to be destroyed, there would still be thousands of reapers for the organic fleets to deal with

 

Here's a post explaining the possible numbers the reapers might have at the start of this cycle

[Gaaxure]

True. Though no one knew that until Vendetta mentions the crucible and Citadel work together to spread its bags of goodies throughout the galaxy with the help of the relays
 

No it doesn't. It only destroys the reapers in that system if they don't avoid the shockwave
 

That won't work. The reapers win by numbers alone. Even if all the reapers above Earth and on Earth were to be destroyed, there would still be thousands of reapers for the organic fleets to deal with

 

Here's a post explaining the possible numbers the reapers might have at the start of this cycle

I'm not buying it. Those estimates are off by thousands. I mean, some of earth's naval battles were fought with fleets more numerous than what we actually see in the cutscenes. At the beginning of the last mission Hackett says that the Reapers are amassing their forces around the citadel. The implication being that the bulk(or at least a significant part) of their military strength is focused on defending the citadel from being taken over.

[themikefest]

I'm not buying it. Those estimates are off by thousands. I mean, some of earth's naval battles were fought with fleets more numerous than what we actually see in the cutscenes. At the beginning of the last mission Hackett says that the Reapers are amassing their forces around the citadel. The implication being that the bulk(or at least a significant part) of their military strength is focused on defending the citadel from being taken over.

Did Hackett say that?

[AlanC9]

It's not like that's a problem, since it was already established that the prothean scientists had the ability to rewrite the Citadel's repair system. Pity they couldn't find a way to make a keeper hand a note to the next organic to board the station, but then there wouldn't have been a game.

[Applepie_Svk]

Did Hackett say that?

 

Yes he did, somtimes around the Cerberus Base I think.

 

I don´t believe that Reapers were somehow unbeatable in convetional warfare, the thing is that they never before faced to united cycle and yet they´ve been struggling with cleaning Protheans over few centuries till they´ve managed to clean last of them. There is plenty of journal and planetary description that gives us possibile scenarios in which even Reapers are vurnerable to the attack or even beaten in a way.

[themikefest]

Yes he did, somtimes around the Cerberus Base I think.

He says nothing before Chronos and after giving the speech to all fleets, he says to Shepard, "Sword fleets are ready to strike at the reapers surrounding Earth." Nothing about reapers amassing their forces around the Citadel

https://youtu.be/wRoCX6TIOWw?t=1m55s

 

Vendetta, on Chronos, will say the reapers will consolidate power around the catalyst and protect it at all costs

https://youtu.be/Dz3E_wRRtcI?t=1m55s

[Bardox9]

I can't bring myself to believe that the crucible worked. I just can't believe that an interstellar vibrator could wipe out a race of metal monsters that has survived for thousands if not millions of years. It's entirely possible that it to was part of a Reaper plot to keep the organics busy and have all their ships worth a damn converge in one place to be destroyed in one massive strike. Even if it could work, there is no guarantee that all the Reapers were in the Milkyway at the time.

 

So my answer is yes. It's impossible. Or at least impossible to know for sure that they were in-fact all destroyed/controlled/merged with (depending on your final choice). Besides, I don't believe one word that star kid said. I still say it was Harbinger messing with Shepards head.

[Gaaxure]

Vendetta, on Chronos, will say the reapers will consolidate power around the catalyst and protect it at all costs

https://youtu.be/Dz3E_wRRtcI?t=1m55s

Same difference. I don't see much point to moving Citadel if they can simply defend it with a planet occupation sized task force. Or why wouldn't they just bullrush the citadel after taking down the Batarians. This all suggests that taking over and guarding Citadel takes considerable military strength. The kind that even Reapers need to think twice before risking.

 

And back to my Initial point of blowing up the mass relay. I don't think Reapers could escape the blast, without pre-existing knowledge of explosion. I'll explain why, it's a little out there, but given how much speculation takes place ITT on both sides of argument, it's no more whacky than the next theory. When you overuse your locater in Reaper infested system and they start chasing you, you'll notice that they eventually catch up to you. No matter how much you maneuver. This means that their top speed is higher than Normandy's. However in the acceleration Normandy has upper hand. And we all know that even Normandy has a hard time escaping the blast. My point being they wouldn't be able to reach necessary speed to escape fast enough.

[themikefest]

Same difference.

Similiar to what Vendetta said to what you posted. Sure. But not by Hackett. I was only pointing out that Hackett never said what you posted. That's why I asked if Hackett said what you posted.
 

I don't see much point to moving Citadel if they can simply defend it with a planet occupation sized task force.

Bioware wanted the Citadel above Earth. If they did leave the Citadel where it was and the reapers just guarded the thing, I would guess there would be only one way Shepard could get on the Citadel to open the arms. Have Shepard with all squadmates, even the one's from ME2, go to Ilos to see if there's anyway to use the conduit again to get on the Citadel. If that doesn't work, I have no idea how to get the arms open. Unless someone calls C-Sec or whoever to see if they can try to get the arms opened.
 

Or why wouldn't they just bullrush the citadel after taking down the Batarians. This all suggests that taking over and guarding Citadel takes considerable military strength. The kind that even Reapers need to think twice before risking.

Had the reapers went straight to the Citadel, the game would be very short. Most of that time would be from the credits. Even if the arms are closed, all they had to do was leave X number of reapers to guard the citadel preventing anyone near the it while the rest of the reapers do the harvest.
 

And back to my Initial point of blowing up the mass relay. I don't think Reapers could escape the blast, without pre-existing knowledge of explosion. I'll explain why, it's a little out there, but given how much speculation takes place ITT on both sides of argument, it's no more whacky than the next theory. When you overuse your locater in Reaper infested system and they start chasing you, you'll notice that they eventually catch up to you. No matter how much you maneuver. This means that their top speed is higher than Normandy's. However in the acceleration Normandy has upper hand. And we all know that even Normandy has a hard time escaping the blast. My point being they wouldn't be able to reach necessary speed to escape fast enough.

Even if what you posted worked, the rest of the reapers have to be dealt with. Most likely if you were successful once, it won't happen again since the reapers will be aware of what you did the first time.

[Gaaxure]

Well, that's kinda my main grievance with this whole thing, to begin with. If the only explanation to something plot related is creator's "because I say so", or "Otherwise there wouldn't be any game" then plot is poorly thought through. It's kinda hard to defeat someone if that someone is making the rules up as they go. 

 

 

And for the Reapers, this supposedly unstoppable force, not to take citadel right away makes little to no sense at all, that is, *if* they are indeed as unstoppable and invincible as you paint them.

[themikefest]

I don't make them unstoppable or invincable. Their numbers is what makes them unstoppable. Bioware are the ones who say what those numbers are.  Here's a post from me explaining how many they might have. Of course they had to be made stupid to be stopped in ME3.

[Iakus]

Well, that's kinda my main grievance with this whole thing, to begin with. If the only explanation to something plot related is creator's "because I say so", or "Otherwise there wouldn't be any game" then plot is poorly thought through. It's kinda hard to defeat someone if that someone is making the rules up as they go. 

 

QFT

 

And that makes the whole question meaningless The answer to "Can the Reapers be defeated conventionally" becomes "If the writers say so" with no basis on logic or fact.  If the Reapers act stupidly enough (and we have been shown that the can if the PLOT demands it) then yes, they can.  If, however, the writers make them so powerful that Only the Author Can Save Us Now (as we ultimately got)  Then no.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well, that's kinda my main grievance with this whole thing, to begin with. If the only explanation to something plot related is creator's "because I say so", or "Otherwise there wouldn't be any game" then plot is poorly thought through. It's kinda hard to defeat someone if that someone is making the rules up as they go. 

 

 

And for the Reapers, this supposedly unstoppable force, not to take citadel right away makes little to no sense at all, that is, *if* they are indeed as unstoppable and invincible as you paint them.

 

I think a big part of that is the game play as well. The Reapers largely play the parts as disposal mooks -- even when you engage their ships! on foot! We even have a number that measures "effective military strength" and it largely only goes up. I think it's hard to feel that the Reapers are this indestructible force when they have the same impact on most of the game as Cerberus.