234 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

The exact numbers are not only unknowable- Mass Effect is highly inconsistent with its populations- but Reaper numbers are firmly established as much higher. It may be poor writing, but Reaper numbers are far more than 200.

 I know they have more than 200. The example was relating to if they only had 200

 

Here's a post that explains how many they might have.

 

With the numbers the reapers have, from the link I provided, there is no way for them to be stopped. They had to be made stupid to be defeated.
 

And see, this is why you're chasing the wrong metric- the strength or size of the fleets is irrelevant to the Reapers running away. Fleeing is easy in the Mass Effect universe- that's why most War Assets survive to be recruited- and engagement ranges aren't cross-system. Lightspeed lag and all that.

 Depending on what attack is used against them, only a few may be able to retreat.
 

If all the organic fleets came into a system, Reapers could flee before all the organic fleets got into firing formation and the rounds reach. The numbers are irrelevant, because superior numbers don't trap the Reapers.

Why would they flee?
 

Reapers don't need relays or reinforcements to flee. They just FTL into the dark space between stars. Who attacks or how doesn't really matter- the point the Reapers calculate the odds as being too risky, let alone bad, is the point they can make to leave.

Are they programmed to leave?
 

The Reapers aren't on a time limit, so 'a long time' is irrelevant. This is a group that waits around tens of thousands of years just because. Not that it would necessarily take long anyways- not only are the Reapers the masters of nano-tech, and manufactories are obviously a thing, but the Reapers have the means to co-opt the galaxy's own production efforts via cyberwar (synthetics) and indoctrination (organics) while also destroying known production centers via hit-and-run, sabotage, or outright coopation.

They may be all that, but they sure are stupid. Look at what happened in ME3.
 

Not only are the organics not going to match the tech gap instantly, it's rather irrelevant so long as the Reapers build the means to destroy the organic basis of production. Planet-killers are totally a thing in the ME universe.

Never said it would be instant. While the reapers are building the means to destroy any kind of production, organics are building as well to counter the reapers or at least be able to counter them.

Remember this is all based on a scenario if the reapers only had 200

[themikefest]

A few pages back, folks were posting about nuclear weapons been used against the reapers. I do believe they would harm the reapers. One bomb may not be able to destroy a capital ship, most likely disable its shields, but I would say one would be able to destroy a destroyer. How can this be tested to find out? I would try and find or at least isolate a reaper in an area to use a nuclear bomb.

 

 Would I use it on cities? I would if I knew that most of the population is gone or killed. Easier said than done. It would also depend on how many reapers are in the area. Obviously the more the better.  I have no idea what the outcome would be using them in space. It might work. Don't know.

 

I know one thing. If I was on the ground fighting the uglies with no end in sight, I would have no problem if a nuclear bomb was dropped in my area. I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't agree.

 

Would this lead to a conventional victory? No. What it would do is have more destroyed reapers than they had in ME3 before the crucible fires. I don't believe nuclear weapons were ever used by anybody in ME3. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I have posted a few times that its unfortunate that the weapon that caused the great rift and hit the reaper that had the iff, wasn't studied to see if it can be massed produced. I'm sure the weapon was massive to cause the rift.

 

I will also go as far to say that mass acelerator weapon was built before the reapers entered the galaxy. I'm not saying that species knew about the reapers, I'm saying they built it for security reasons or maybe experimenting. Why do I say this? In ME3, when the planet Trikalon is scanned, it will mention having a massive particle accelerator surrounding the planet. The reapers treated it as a greater threat than the asari naval fleet near the planet Sanves.

 

If the reapers treat a mass accelerator weapon as a big threat, that would mean they could be defeated that way.  Of course once its fired, it wouldn't take very long for the reapers to get to that planet and destroy it. I suspect that's what happened to the one that created the great rift. Yeah TIM said it was defunct,  but didn't say it was found in pieces. I agree with him that it was that species one shot before the reapers destroyed the weapon that fired at the reaper causing glancing blow enough to disable it and causing the great rift.  If that weapon could've been massed produced and put on ships, would they be powerful enough to destroy a reaper? Unlikely. They probably wouldn't do anymore damage than what a thannix cannon could do.

 

None of the above would  lead to a conventional victory, but this cycle could've destroyed more reapers than what were destroyed before the crucible fires.

[StarcloudSWG]

Nukes were used against Reaper ships. On the ground, at Tuchanka, after you secure Krogan help for the Turians.

 

In *space*, nukes have a problem. The concussive force and heat that is so massive in atmosphere is negligible in vacuum. The radiation effects are nasty in a tight area, but barriers are *gravitic shear* effects that divert much of the heavier particles. For a nuke to be effective in space, it has to be in contact with the target.

 

And if you paid attention to the gunnery sergeant lecture in Mass Effect 2, every dreadnought slug already hits with the power of a nuke. And is MUCH cheaper and MUCH easier and faster to deliver.

 

They got this one right. c-fractional kinetic weapons are the way to go.

[Linkenski]

Nah. At the end of the game Earth has the biggest force to combat them of any planet in the galaxy but Thessia, Palaven and etc. are hit just as hard and when you get to Earth you can see just how dire it is. The various logs and radio chatter is nothing but reports of lights going out and platoons being wiped out and Reapers kick the crap out of alliance dreadnaughts in single blasts.

 

It was well depicted enough to show it wasn't going to happen.

[bunch1]

It was well depicted enough to show it wasn't going to happen.

I thought the extended cut showed that it was possible, just not for this cycle.  If you choose reject then Liara's warning is left to tell the next cycle what is coming and the reapers are wiped out and the old man tells the kid about how the Shepard help save them by showing how to fight the reapers and warning them of their coming.  I mean we see and hear about conventional ships damaging and destroying reaper ships throughout the series so we know it's possible and with Liara's archive left it likely contains tech data on thanix cannons and reaper weaknesses for them to fight with.  Sure, the crucible data is probably included as well but their is no guarantee they used it either.  That sounds like conventional victory to me.  

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

This issue has been argued ad nauseam since Day 1 and the only real answer is:

 

It depends on how the story is written.

 

It is entirely feasible to completely rewrite the story for the third part of the trilogy to make Reapers perfectly beatable conventionally, utilizing pre-existing narrative elements from ME2 and -- especially -- ME1, with extra focus on the fact that the Reapers have never taken on the galaxy directly -- they've always used the Citadel to control the mass relay network. That element alone makes a HUGE difference, and in the existing attempt at the third part of a story, it was COMPLETELY ignored. It's just "everything's ruined, NOW FIGHT REAPERS".

 

The problem with conventional victory is that it's not really well-suited to a story that revolves around a group of characters centered around the main protagonist, because there is no decisive input from the player character that would relate to the overall victory if it's achieved solely through the combined power of the Citadel and Terminus fleets.

 

Holy crap that was a long sentence. Let's try that again.

 

The problem with conventional victory is that it's not really well-suited to a story that revolves around a group of characters centered around the main protagonist. Stop. In such a case (if victory is achieved solely through the combined power of the Citadel and Terminus fleets) there is no decisive input from the player character. Stop. There is little to no relation between the player's effort and the overall victory.

 

That's better. Anyway.

 

Because of this, the most logical way to tell the story, IMHO, would be to combine measures that are most widely argued as leading to conventional victory (unconventional tactics, hacking attacks based on EDI's anti-Reaper algoritms, cruiser-mounted large thanix cannons, Elyvern's excellent idea of deploying small fireteams to actually BOARD the damn synthetics with anti-matter bombs to be detonated near Reaper cores, there have been countless great suggestions), bring them down a notch and restrict them to helping in the fight, but not actually winning it (slowing the Reapers down, mitigating damage sustained etc.) and combine them with another plot element that would put the player character in the spotlight, allowing to tip the balance and strike a fatal blow to the Reaper fleets. This is where it's the hardest to avoid a Deus Ex Machina, for obvious reasons, but that, too, is doable, with no last-minute ass-pulls or contrived varren dung. The necessary lore is right there in the first game.

 

In the game that was produced, in contrast, conventional victory is most likely impossible due to the way it was written. It's basically established right from the start that there's nothing we can do and everybody's screwed. This tone is prevailent throughout the game; although it must be said that it's horrendously mixed up with more optimistic notes in places, which creates a severe case of mood whiplash, but that's a separate topic in itself. Whether such radical tonal shift is a good thing or a bad thing comes down to personal preference, but there's no arguing that it is a tonal shift in relation to both ME1 and ME2.

 

Now, I've grown quite fond of the Mass Effect universe; I don't believe it deserves such a treatment simply due to the fact that the game was rushed by a corporate publisher and that the writers had literally no idea how to end the story. There is no valid end to the story other than whatever you come up with for your Shepard.

 

Unless, you know, you accept the space d**** sex toy that has three settings. The choice, as always, is yours.

[Dantriges]

Boarding teams? Hm, not sure how fast the fast version of indoctrination actually is. In case the sledgehammer version of mindrape is really fast, boarding would be a really bad idea. And aren´t these ships carrying around a larger troop of ground forces?

[von uber]

Reapers have organic goo. Give them a virus.

Incidentally, what do reapers eat?

[themikefest]

Reapers have organic goo. Give them a virus.

Ha. What virus would you suggest to give them?

[Iakus]

Ha. What virus would you suggest to give them?

The one Jeff Goldblum gave the aliens in Independence Day 

 

Barring that, a cold virus.  They'll spend a week more or less helpless.  Easy pickings  

 

Incidentally, what do reapers eat?

They're two kilometers long and curb-stomping the galaxy.

 

I'm betting Wheaties 

[AlanC9]

I gotta go with Staff Cdr Alenko here. There's a reason both Wing Commander 3 and Mass Effect 3 end their wars with superweapons.

Note that even if Bio had wanted to go another way, the ME1 lore made a terrible botch of planetary defense. The way the Codex entry for trans-relay assaults is written, you can't really blockade a relay since any substantial enemy force can randomize its position when entering the system. When neither side starts with a firing solution, the side with a huge defenseless immobile high-value asset is screwed.

The only thing keeping the Citadel forces from being exterminated in weeks is that the Reapers are engaged in harvesting rather than war. There's no reason Palaven, Thessia, and Earth couldn't have got the same treatment that Bekenstein got.

[archangel1996]

They repeat at least 20 times in ME3 that conventional victory is impossible, so of course it is  

I'm being sarcastic, the Reapers would have been defeatable if only tha brain cells of every person in the ME3 universe did not commit suicide the day after ME2 ended. And i refer to it as the "ME3 universe" because, really, ME3 just needs to be categorized on its own apart from the other 2 (great) games

[SwobyJ]

Boarding teams? Hm, not sure how fast the fast version of indoctrination actually is. In case the sledgehammer version of mindrape is really fast, boarding would be a really bad idea. And aren´t these ships carrying around a larger troop of ground forces?

 

I'd say the fast version works within a day (aka imagine some episode of a sci fi show of a crew losing their minds with every hour). And there might be parts of/artifacts within the Reaper that hit individuals hard, like Object Rho?

 

Basically any team that goes in, goes in understanding they will probably die. There may be a way to produce indoctrination shielding but it may be expensive to have a mobile form of, and it likely won't provide much protection within a Reaper (like the counter-swarm tech didn't work in the Collector Base).

 

Entering Reapers to destroy them seems like a viable tactic to attempt when our backs are against the wall, but otherwise is a losing proposition. I think its supposed to be a special statement by the story when we hear about others successfully doing it - they we're not alone in this fight, and others are definitely giving their lives to stop the Reapers now, not just Shepard (+ those he experienced ME1 with + those he brought on the Suicide Mission and that may have become Loyal).

[SwobyJ]

I gotta go with Staff Cdr Alenko here. There's a reason both Wing Commander 3 and Mass Effect 3 end their wars with superweapons.

Note that even if Bio had wanted to go another way, the ME1 lore made a terrible botch of planetary defense. The way the Codex entry for trans-relay assaults is written, you can't really blockade a relay since any substantial enemy force can randomize its position when entering the system. When neither side starts with a firing solution, the side with a huge defenseless immobile high-value asset is screwed.

The only thing keeping the Citadel forces from being exterminated in weeks is that the Reapers are engaged in harvesting rather than war. There's no reason Palaven, Thessia, and Earth couldn't have got the same treatment that Bekenstein got.

 

While we get wrapped up in the war, there is the trend of the information we get (and some of the direct narrative, especially when we play DLC like Leviathan) that this is simply not a war to the Reapers, but a harvesting process that they just may be having some danger at doing compared to other cycles.

 

Even the beam run has little hints about it that indicate that the Reapers very well could have stacked that whole area with so many husks and Reapers that absolutely no organic could have ever gotten through. Not saying they 'wanted' Shepard to enter, but I wouldn't be surprised if they also didn't mind it, and accounted for allowing it to happen. Everything could have been within some plans until the Crucible Chamber, and if you're ITer or even other beliefs, even the Crucible could be included to a degree.

 

The Reapers are almost certainly holding back on the damage they could do to organics. This isn't just some theory about ground forces and Reaper distribution - the Reapers have the technological power to completely wreck or even destroy any planet, and may have the power to destroy whole star systems. Their goal seems to keep them from doing that, but it also doesn't have them complete their goal with any concepts of kindness or empathy or understanding of organics beyond their physiology and how it can help a harvest. If it wasn't for at least their intent to make more Reapers (a reproductive desire instead of their programmed goal? theory), they could just kill everyone within months, not harvest in years, decades, or at least in the Prothian struggle, centuries.

[SwobyJ]

They repeat at least 20 times in ME3 that conventional victory is impossible, so of course it is

I'm being sarcastic, the Reapers would have been defeatable if only tha brain cells of every person in the ME3 universe did not commit suicide the day after ME2 ended. And i refer to it as the "ME3 universe" because, really, ME3 just needs to be categorized on its own apart from the other 2 (great) games

 

Each level of ME content (ME1 --> ME2 --> ME2 Bridging DLC) seemed to give more reasons on how the ME universe wouldn't quite be ready for the Reapers, even as it did get more ready than before. Call them excuses, and you may be right, but I wouldn't say that everyone's braincells died or anything like that.

 

Species were clearly preparing for invasion. They were just expecting things like a united Terminus or the Geth, not the Reapers.

 

Tech was clearly being advanced. It was just not with the rush of Reapers coming within years, but a threat that could come within decades or more.

 

The Reaper threat was being heard of, but mostly from Shepard (who was being appeased then blacklisted then shut out so he struck it out on his own) and in backchannels of those 'in the know' (Shadow Broker, STG, elements within governments even if Council hid out on the Citadel). Geth and Reaper tech was so intertwined in ME1 that Sovereign was just taken as the geth flagship meant to impose fear and power on organics. The evidence provided about Saren was something that people in denial about galaxy-killing robots could interpret to mean that he was only tricking those 'stupid Geth machines' about being their savior and taking power for himself, using a Reaper mythology that Shepard was playing into.

 

The companions from ME1 were a range:

-Kaidan/Ashley returned to Alliance and were promoted and seemed to be in contact with Hackett and Anderson like Shepard used to. Its arguable they didn't do enough (to our knowledge) but they did try to scope out the Reaper threat, and then be a help in terms of being on standby for the arrival of the Reapers.

-Liara was part of Shepard coming back to life and then had her vendetta, but before/after it, she clearly was engaging in things that would have manipulated the galaxy in ways that would have been more ready for the Reapers than otherwise. As Shadow Broker, her primary goal wasn't sustainment of a power base, but instead diverting resources to anti-Reaper measures. We see examples of this on her desk in ME3 and its unlikely she didn't do similar stuff pre-ME3. This is enough for us to understand that by ME3, many scattered people were getting ready for the Reapers (whether they knew it or not) even while governments were officially mum and most people were still not aware.

-Tali went back to the fleet and the Quarians are aware of the Reapers (even if they're some of the most on the sidelines of galactic affairs) and she's clearly studying the Collectors, Dark Energy, Geth/AI, so what else do you expect? That it didn't produce superawesomekillReapers results is sad, but part of the point that the Reapers aren't supposed to be easily picked apart and exploited by just one person (even ME3 was a galactic effort with Shepard just as the arguble foundation).

-Wrex went back to Tuchanka and wanted to give the Krogan the chance that Saren failed at. Aside from being a part of the ship and perhaps part of the squad that saved the Citadel and perhaps Council, he and many others don't have sway in galactic politics yet.

-Garrus had as much sway as someone like him could in the shorter term. He was written to be in a pessimistic stance since Shepard's death, and then after ME2 he did try to convince his government as much as possible of something with little evidence.

 

I could go on about ME2 squadmates but frankly most of them hold little sway with the large scale of their respective societies and I don't mind the stories of them orienting more towards settling old scores/debts/regrets/etc in ME2 and ME3 and between both games, than being some loud public figures screaming for change. I think we should keep in mind that this is the scale of a galactic society; its hard to remember when so damn much seems to center on Shepard, but even he is written to not be so influential that everyone believes him on everything. There is stability to the galaxy that so many focus on, and for good reason. If everyone tried to mobilize and freak out about the Reapers at once, before the Reapers even arrived, it could have very well had the galaxy LESS ready for them than what we got.

 

People were nearly as ready as they could be in an environment that wasn't going to just admit that everyonesgonnadierealsoon. Everyone exhibited things like the stages of grief, and in ME1-ME2 the biggest one was simply denial (ME3 had some too, but the least). It could have been more positive about the galaxy if it had stuff like the Alliance being fully out about the Reapers and the Council admitting to them (the ending ME1 scene with them is more and more awkward in retrospect), but I also have some sympathy with the direction Bioware chose.

 

One sort of thing I can remember that should have counted was stuff like video evidence of the meeting with Sovereign, or the fight against the Collectors, or even Object Rho (optionally). There should have been enough there for people to just know. In fact, entities like EDI and the Shadow Broker could have drip fed the galaxy information about it all. Instead, we have people preparing more slowly and quietly than they should have.

[archangel1996]

Each level of ME content (ME1 --> ME2 --> ME2 Bridging DLC) seemed to give more reasons on how the ME universe wouldn't quite be ready for the Reapers, even as it did get more ready than before. Call them excuses, and you may be right, but I wouldn't say that everyone's braincells died or anything like that.

 

Species were clearly preparing for invasion. They were just expecting things like a united Terminus or the Geth, not the Reapers.

 

Tech was clearly being advanced. It was just not with the rush of Reapers coming within years, but a threat that could come within decades or more.

 

The Reaper threat was being heard of, but mostly from Shepard (who was being appeased then blacklisted then shut out so he struck it out on his own) and in backchannels of those 'in the know' (Shadow Broker, STG, elements within governments even if Council hid out on the Citadel). Geth and Reaper tech was so intertwined in ME1 that Sovereign was just taken as the geth flagship meant to impose fear and power on organics. The evidence provided about Saren was something that people in denial about galaxy-killing robots could interpret to mean that he was only tricking those 'stupid Geth machines' about being their savior and taking power for himself, using a Reaper mythology that Shepard was playing into.

 

The companions from ME1 were a range:

-Kaidan/Ashley returned to Alliance and were promoted and seemed to be in contact with Hackett and Anderson like Shepard used to. Its arguable they didn't do enough (to our knowledge) but they did try to scope out the Reaper threat, and then be a help in terms of being on standby for the arrival of the Reapers.

-Liara was part of Shepard coming back to life and then had her vendetta, but before/after it, she clearly was engaging in things that would have manipulated the galaxy in ways that would have been more ready for the Reapers than otherwise. As Shadow Broker, her primary goal wasn't sustainment of a power base, but instead diverting resources to anti-Reaper measures. We see examples of this on her desk in ME3 and its unlikely she didn't do similar stuff pre-ME3. This is enough for us to understand that by ME3, many scattered people were getting ready for the Reapers (whether they knew it or not) even while governments were officially mum and most people were still not aware.

-Tali went back to the fleet and the Quarians are aware of the Reapers (even if they're some of the most on the sidelines of galactic affairs) and she's clearly studying the Collectors, Dark Energy, Geth/AI, so what else do you expect? That it didn't produce superawesomekillReapers results is sad, but part of the point that the Reapers aren't supposed to be easily picked apart and exploited by just one person (even ME3 was a galactic effort with Shepard just as the arguble foundation).

-Wrex went back to Tuchanka and wanted to give the Krogan the chance that Saren failed at. Aside from being a part of the ship and perhaps part of the squad that saved the Citadel and perhaps Council, he and many others don't have sway in galactic politics yet.

-Garrus had as much sway as someone like him could in the shorter term. He was written to be in a pessimistic stance since Shepard's death, and then after ME2 he did try to convince his government as much as possible of something with little evidence.

 

I could go on about ME2 squadmates but frankly most of them hold little sway with the large scale of their respective societies and I don't mind the stories of them orienting more towards settling old scores/debts/regrets/etc in ME2 and ME3 and between both games, than being some loud public figures screaming for change. I think we should keep in mind that this is the scale of a galactic society; its hard to remember when so damn much seems to center on Shepard, but even he is written to not be so influential that everyone believes him on everything. There is stability to the galaxy that so many focus on, and for good reason. If everyone tried to mobilize and freak out about the Reapers at once, before the Reapers even arrived, it could have very well had the galaxy LESS ready for them than what we got.

 

People were nearly as ready as they could be in an environment that wasn't going to just admit that everyonesgonnadierealsoon. Everyone exhibited things like the stages of grief, and in ME1-ME2 the biggest one was simply denial (ME3 had some too, but the least). It could have been more positive about the galaxy if it had stuff like the Alliance being fully out about the Reapers and the Council admitting to them (the ending ME1 scene with them is more and more awkward in retrospect), but I also have some sympathy with the direction Bioware chose.

 

One sort of thing I can remember that should have counted was stuff like video evidence of the meeting with Sovereign, or the fight against the Collectors, or even Object Rho (optionally). There should have been enough there for people to just know. In fact, entities like EDI and the Shadow Broker could have drip fed the galaxy information about it all. Instead, we have people preparing more slowly and quietly than they should have.

 

Honestly, i could give you a full answer detailing why i think ME3 is basically Bioware cheating time and time again by ensuring that the "endings" we got were the only way to (not really) win (it's funny thinking that the "best" ending, synthesis, implies that husks will become sentient creatures, gotta be fun for them..... eh, art, never did understand it).

 

I could talk of how Liara did basically nothing with the resources of the Shadow Broker, no, really, she did nothing apart from finding the archives on mars(the first cheat of the game), it seemed like it had not passed 6 months from the ending of ME3 but 6 days (heck, the Liara of ME2 could have probably blackmailed half of the universe to get them to get their act together in 6 days. 

 

I could talk of how Tali went back to the Quarians....... and did nothing, really, unitl we came out soemthing started happening, before then Geth and Quarians were jsut killing each other because that's what's important right now.

 

I could talk of how curing the genophage is kind of retarded when you really think about it. I mean, if ME3 spanned along the course of decades, yeah, curing the genophage makes sense because the krogans would start reproducing on masse and they could be "used" as they were used back in the Rachni War, but curing them ha no consequences on the short term, litterally, just give me the salrian number (which is all it is, really) and be done with it.

 

I could talk more and more, but, honestly, i don't really see the point so all i'm gonna say is that if they wanted to show rather than tell that the galaxay had been readying itself since the ending of ME2..... wel, they failed at that, too. Why? Because no war assets. We don't get a line of text saying how the turian better held off the Reapers thanks to the Vakarian family's words(because no one would talk Garrus seriously, but his father is another matter), no line of text how politician A or B, afetr being nudged by the Shadow Broker, got their act together and began talking about bettering the military. We get nothing, and if they couldn't even spare the time to go full tilt on their vision (a lazy and badly done vision), well, no real point in discussing it

[bunch1]

I could talk of how Liara did basically nothing with the resources of the Shadow Broker, no, really, she did nothing apart from finding the archives on mars(the first cheat of the game), it seemed like it had not passed 6 months from the ending of ME3 but 6 days (heck, the Liara of ME2 could have probably blackmailed half of the universe to get them to get their act together in 6 days. 
 

You can only blackmail someone so much or cash in a favor if the other party is willing to do it.  Sure, she could cash out all her intel and raise a few billion, hundred billion, credits to spend but trying to get an asari matriach to commit political suicide or get a turian to go commit treason and defy orders is not going to work out nearly as well.  Could she have done more, sure, but not likely without killing innocent people to show that the Shadow Broker was serious as well as crazy about the stopping the boogeyman.

 

 

I could talk of how Tali went back to the Quarians....... and did nothing, really, unitl we came out soemthing started happening, before then Geth and Quarians were jsut killing each other because that's what's important right now.

The quarians tell you in ME2 they want to retake the homeworld to offload their civilian population so that their fleet can fight without having to worry about losing the entire population in one battle.  And they spend the intervening months arming their fleet to the teeth, turning the entire civilian fleet into a formidable combat force, so their is nothing more they could have done.

 

 

I could talk of how curing the genophage is kind of retarded when you really think about it. I mean, if ME3 spanned along the course of decades, yeah, curing the genophage makes sense because the krogans would start reproducing on masse and they could be "used" as they were used back in the Rachni War, but curing them ha no consequences on the short term, litterally, just give me the salrian number (which is all it is, really) and be done with it.

The last harvest took several hundred years and their is no reason to assume this one wouldn't so their is a long term thought in curing the genophage.  Sure, the humans want to end the war quick but Shepard knows that if the crucible doesn't work, and they have no idea what it will do much less if it will be enough, then they are going to need someone for the long haul.  That aside Salarians and Asari may both outnumber the Krogan at this point in time but the krogan actually enjoy battle instead of shying away from it.  The Salarians are a council race and they flat out refuse to send aid to any other specious even as their space is last unmolested territory in council space.  And think about it, a billion or more females having 1,000 babies a year and then if a few decades, those baby girls all have thousand egg clutches of their own and you see the advantage of the krogan in a war of attrition.  And in the short term it adds billions of battle veterans who are willing to die to the fight easily outnumbering the force humanity has contributed to the fight.

 

 

I could talk more and more, but, honestly, i don't really see the point so all i'm gonna say is that if they wanted to show rather than tell that the galaxay had been readying itself since the ending of ME2..... wel, they failed at that, too. Why? Because no war assets. We don't get a line of text saying how the turian better held off the Reapers thanks to the Vakarian family's words(because no one would talk Garrus seriously, but his father is another matter), no line of text how politician A or B, afetr being nudged by the Shadow Broker, got their act together and began talking about bettering the military. We get nothing, and if they couldn't even spare the time to go full tilt on their vision (a lazy and badly done vision), well, no real point in discussing it

We do get lines though that tell us what they did.  Hacket gathered the fleets together at acturs and Earth, it didn't do much but he did try to gather the fleets to battle the reapers.  Garrus got a small task-force more to shut him up then do anything, and considering that the hirearchy is already the strongest military in the galaxy with the largest army and fleet is it surprising that a few more supply caches don't make much of a difference on the galactic scale, though they may have saved some lives.  Also, we only see war assets that join Shepard's fight, not those fighting elsewhere, that is why only two Slarian fleets are war assets and a few stg units even though we know they have several other fleets and an army larger the humanity's.  Liara's contacts are out their doing work all though-out ME3 but they don't count as an asset because they are not going to be a direct contributor to the assault on Earth. 

 

 

I'd say the fast version works within a day (aka imagine some episode of a sci fi show of a crew losing their minds with every hour). And there might be parts of/artifacts within the Reaper that hit individuals hard, like Object Rho?

 

Basically any team that goes in, goes in understanding they will probably die. There may be a way to produce indoctrination shielding but it may be expensive to have a mobile form of, and it likely won't provide much protection within a Reaper (like the counter-swarm tech didn't work in the Collector Base).

 

Entering Reapers to destroy them seems like a viable tactic to attempt when our backs are against the wall, but otherwise is a losing proposition. I think its supposed to be a special statement by the story when we hear about others successfully doing it - they we're not alone in this fight, and others are definitely giving their lives to stop the Reapers now, not just Shepard (+ those he experienced ME1 with + those he brought on the Suicide Mission and that may have become Loyal).

The turians showed us this was in fact a viable strategy, destroying several reapers on their homeworld, the codex even mention destroying several capital ships and retaking large parts of the planet in the aftermath.  Losing a few hundred soldiers to destroy a reaper is not something you only do when your back is to the wall.  It's dam near the first option.  I don't care if you go by how many reapers are shown in game or by their theoretical maximum they will lose that war of numbers easily to the trillions of organics in the galaxy.

 

They repeat at least 20 times in ME3 that conventional victory is impossible, so of course it is

I'm being sarcastic, the Reapers would have been defeatable if only tha brain cells of every person in the ME3 universe did not commit suicide the day after ME2 ended. And i refer to it as the "ME3 universe" because, really, ME3 just needs to be categorized on its own apart from the other 2 (great) games

And they use to say the world is flat.  Just because someone believes something doesn't make it true and since we see reapers die then it is possible to kill them all with nothing but guns and bombs if you get enough of them.

[fhs33721]

The turians showed us this was in fact a viable strategy, destroying several reapers on their homeworld, the codex even mention destroying several capital ships and retaking large parts of the planet in the aftermath.  Losing a few hundred soldiers to destroy a reaper is not something you only do when your back is to the wall.  It's dam near the first option.  I don't care if you go by how many reapers are shown in game or by their theoretical maximum they will lose that war of numbers easily to the trillions of organics in the galaxy.

 

No they won't. It's not ike they are alone. They have billions of horrifying zombie-like husks at their disposal, some of which are capable to shred an entire squad of soldiers to bloody pieces on their own (Banshees for example). And to top it off they produce those troops by basically turning your own soldiers and even civilians against you, weakening your numbers while strengthening their own. Plus most inhabitants of the galaxy aren't trained for any sort of combat so their superior numbers mean little since civilians won't be able to continue destroying Reapers after you sacrificed all your soldiers to desteoy Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

With the numbers the reapers have, from the link I provided, there is no way for them to be stopped. They had to be made stupid to be defeated.

 

Depending on the rate of arrival, but close enough. Since ME2 locked in that spectrum of numbers with the Dreadnaught-per-cycle bit, are we going to accept plot stupidity as a requirement, and not a flaw, to justify the time getting to the superweapon?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Depending on what attack is used against them, only a few may be able to retreat.
 

Why would they flee?

 

 

Why wouldn't they flee, if the attack being prepared (as it must be, or the decisive battle wouldn't  be needed in the first place) is the sort that would leave only a few of them able to retreat after engaging?

 

Why engage in a decisive battle that they could lose in the first place? In ME3, the Reapers had to put up a fight at Earth because they had to protect the Citadel from the Crucible.

 

 

Are they programmed to leave?
 

They may be all that, but they sure are stupid. Look at what happened in ME3.

 

 

I can't tell if you're criticizing the Reapers for being stupid in how they were written, or want them to be written as explicitly programmed to be morons. The question and the critique point in different directions?

 

Never said it would be instant. While the reapers are building the means to destroy any kind of production, organics are building as well to counter the reapers or at least be able to counter them.

 

How long can the organics maintain the unity of effort or prioritization to keep from turning against eachother or being infiltrated by indoctrination?

 

The advantage the Reapers have, besides technology, is a lot of patience. The galaxy only bands together in the fate of imminent extinction, and even then it's a struggle. Take away the immediate danger, and fracturing will re-emerge.

 

The galaxy won't be on a perpetual war footing forever- not against a threat they won't even know is defeated for good if/when it finally is.

 

 

Remember this is all based on a scenario if the reapers only had 200

 

 

Why would only 200 Reapers try a conventional fight first, rather than build proxies and conspire to put the organics against eachother?

[Natureguy85]

As presented, no, it isn't possible. But the pieces were there to make it so.

 

1) This cycle has more time. Previous cycles didn't have any warning. The Reapers popped in, shut down the relays, and isolated systems. Even with their advanced FTL, it should have taken the Reapers decades, if not longer (I forget the math) to get to the Relay network from Dark Space. Arrival and ME3 sped this up a great deal.

 

2) This cycle can unite. Because the Reapers couldn't jump on the Citadel and shutdown the network, they can't isolate the galaxy. I know they should have done this in ME3 but if things were going right, the bulk of the galactic defense would be at the Citadel.

 

3) The cycle has Sovereign to reverse engineer Reaper tech.  With the aforementioned extra time, this cycle can gain lots of advanced technology from Sovereign. The Thanix cannon is so common as to be on fighters. The writers just had to have the galaxy actually be on the case about the Reapers and using Sovereign's remains to make advancements. Then make these upgrades effective so that there is an actual war going on, even if the Reapers have the edge, instead of the silly curb stomp it is.

[themikefest]

Depending on the rate of arrival, but close enough. Since ME2 locked in that spectrum of numbers with the Dreadnaught-per-cycle bit, are we going to accept plot stupidity as a requirement, and not a flaw, to justify the time getting to the superweapon?

Did ME2 say one reaper a cycle?
 

Why would only 200 Reapers try a conventional fight first, rather than build proxies and conspire to put the organics against eachother?

As I said, the 200 is only a number based on a scenario. That was if the reapers only had 200, they could still harvest the galaxy without any problem. Had they spread themselves out like is seen in ME3 without shutting down the relay to that system, most likely they would be defeated.

 

The number 200 doesn't include destroyers, processing ships and troop transport ships

[bunch1]

No they won't. It's not ike they are alone. They have billions of horrifying zombie-like husks at their disposal, some of which are capable to shred an entire squad of soldiers to bloody pieces on their own (Banshees for example). And to top it off they produce those troops by basically turning your own soldiers and even civilians against you, weakening your numbers while strengthening their own. Plus most inhabitants of the galaxy aren't trained for any sort of combat so their superior numbers mean little since civilians won't be able to continue destroying Reapers after you sacrificed all your soldiers to desteoy Reapers.

From the mass effect wiki regarding the Miracle of Palaven

 

"The Reapers did not understand the seriousness of the threat at first--those that detected the landing crafts sent husks and Collector swarms to intercept them, but little more. This allowed krogan commandos to link up with Palaven's resistance and hand off their payloads--warp bombs and fission weapons.

 

In simultaneous strikes across the globe, Reaper ships began to explode. Turian resistance members had managed to smuggle the bombs inside when the Reaper processing ships, troop transports, and even destroyers and capital ships had opened their structures to indoctrinated turian leaders.

 

Large swaths of territory fell back into turian and krogan control. News of the victory gave a much-needed boost to the morale of the turian resistance and the galactic public.

 

But the action was not without sacrifice. Turian insurgents gave their lives to ensure the explosives detonated, and the processing centers they destroyed were full of civilians who died just as surely as if they had been harvested. Of the dead, General Minin Resvirix said, "Whatever they were in life, their deaths had no equal. They are worthy of joining the spirit of Palaven itself""

 

All of these reapers that died on Palaven, more then some would say ever died since the start of the cycles, died not because of massive fleets or armies but a few dozen suicide bombers who the reapers were trying to harvest.  The only real military to take part in the operation was the krogan commandos because Tuchanka not Palaven had the massive stockpile of wmds and if they hadn't brought them to Paleven would simply have used them on their own world.  So if it only takes a dozen or a hundred organics to walk a bomb into a reaper ship that wants them to walk in and make sure it goes off then yes, they will win the war of numbers.

[SwobyJ]

From the mass effect wiki regarding the Miracle of Palaven
 
"The Reapers did not understand the seriousness of the threat at first--those that detected the landing crafts sent husks and Collector swarms to intercept them, but little more. This allowed krogan commandos to link up with Palaven's resistance and hand off their payloads--warp bombs and fission weapons.
 
In simultaneous strikes across the globe, Reaper ships began to explode. Turian resistance members had managed to smuggle the bombs inside when the Reaper processing ships, troop transports, and even destroyers and capital ships had opened their structures to indoctrinated turian leaders.
 
Large swaths of territory fell back into turian and krogan control. News of the victory gave a much-needed boost to the morale of the turian resistance and the galactic public.
 
But the action was not without sacrifice. Turian insurgents gave their lives to ensure the explosives detonated, and the processing centers they destroyed were full of civilians who died just as surely as if they had been harvested. Of the dead, General Minin Resvirix said, "Whatever they were in life, their deaths had no equal. They are worthy of joining the spirit of Palaven itself""
 
All of these reapers that died on Palaven, more then some would say ever died since the start of the cycles, died not because of massive fleets or armies but a few dozen suicide bombers who the reapers were trying to harvest.  The only real military to take part in the operation was the krogan commandos because Tuchanka not Palaven had the massive stockpile of wmds and if they hadn't brought them to Paleven would simply have used them on their own world.  So if it only takes a dozen or a hundred organics to walk a bomb into a reaper ship that wants them to walk in and make sure it goes off then yes, they will win the war of numbers.

 
Well, you know...
 
1) that the Reapers would probably just be wise to this tactic being often used by this cycle, right?
 
2) the Miracle of Palaven was a specific maneuver that required the sacrifice of several Turian dreadnoughts by itself?
 
Ship power had to act as a bait.
Troops had to land in the gaps and smuggle WMDs in.
People with these WMDs had to enter Reapers.
 
That's several layers of 'we lose many, they might lose more, unless they detect us'.
 
Seriously it took putting dreadnoughts and fleets directly into harms way just to put any significant dent in Reaper numbers. Its not just the groups that enter the Reapers. The Reapers are already too wise to that, and would otherwise have much more significantly stemmed any flow of WMDs.
 
Its certainly true that a person with a big weapon can tear up the inside of a Reaper and 'kill' it. But its just as true that its hard to get people with big weapons in, and its hard to get the big weapons into these people's hands, and its likely hard to do it again in an area once the Reapers figure out that this is a tactic for this cycle's armed forces.
 
In the meantime, while we're not shown the visuals of it, destroying a Reaper/Destroyer/Processer/etc that is receiving civilians for harvesting is actively allowing Reapers to maybe fill up with thousands to millions(?). That's also something that they have to accept if they want to use this tactic, as opposed to direct firepower and diverting Reapers away from civilians.
 
I agree that this is a valid broad tactic. But I definitely disagree with the sentence "So if it only takes a dozen or a hundred organics to walk a bomb into a reaper ship that wants them to walk in and make sure it goes off then yes, they will win the war of numbers."

 

So Reapers rushed the process (perhaps? it does feel like this whole thing is relatively rushed by them, perhaps due to ME1-ME2 events stalling and changing things) and had their guard down. Okay. But I don't see them continuing to be that way after insurgents show their hand.

 

I think the point about the Reapers, at the very least up to the Crucible firing, was that we can stall it as long as we want, but death (of some sort) awaits us. Miracle of Palaven seemed just another - and the most successful - stalling until the Crucible can liberate Palaven. It shows the tenacity and strategy of this cycle (specifically what seems like a mix of Krogan and Turian efforts), but it ultimately would not work well as a go-to plan. Used as that, it could eliminate allied military power worse than the results of Minimum EMS Destroy results, just getting WMDs into enough people's hands that could manage getting not caught by the Reapers in trying to smuggle them on board (especially if Reapers adapt better and better to it; I don't see why they wouldn't), in my opinion.

 

Also, sidenote, I actually regard Crucible Destroy to be sort of considered conventional victory, just a different convention. Its destructive power is unique and immense for the standards of this cycle/galaxy, but it does present itself as essentially a huge ass gun that chains with the mass relays. Something is pretty conventional about a huge gun. Sure we shouldn't exactly count it into conventional victory analysis, but I also think we should keep it in mind as a very, even in dramatic tone, 'military hardware' sort of thing. I think we can count on the Miracle of Palaven style tactics to slow the Reapers down for weeks, months, and perhaps (for all we know) do the most damage any cycle has managed, but its still a stalling tactic for managing something bigger.

[themikefest]

Since the processing ships are not as protected as destroyers and capitals ships, they would most likely be destroyed very easily. Instead of trying to destroy the capital ships and destroyers from within, I would attack the processing ships with any weapon that is avaiable from the ouside. I wouldn't be surprised if a processing ship can be destroyed by a cain just like the hades cannon is destroyed by a cain.

 

That is what I would do. I would ignore the destroyers and capital ships and focus on the processing ships as well as the troop transport ships.

 

Illium fired at troop transport ships slowing the invasion until the reapers could make more uglies. Too bad every homeworld didn't do that.

 

Doing that would put the reapers in a spot they most likely never been in. Not sure what they would do. They most likely would do orbital strikes to cities causing people to protect those cities as best as possible instead of firing at the processing ships and troop transport ships

 

Something similar happened against the turians. They were able to destroy several capital ships. The reapers countered by sending destroyers to orbital strikes at the cities. The turians were forced to defend them. That's how the reapers win. They find your weakness. Its protecting or at least trying to save everyone if possible. If I was the turians I would not of done that. I would fire at those destroyers. Those destroyers would be forced to stop the orbital strikes to defend themselves.

 

It seems its very easy to distract a reaper. ME3 showed that a few times. In London. On Tuchanka. On Rannoch.

 

Nothing what I posted would lead to a conventional victory. It would lead to a lot more destroyed reapers. That's all. The reaper win by numbers alone

[SwobyJ]

Reapers may be supposedly 'godly' but the evidence just keeps mounting that they're only 'godly' at 'ascending' organics and terrifying them into submission. We'll probably see more powerful stuff in the first 1/3 of MEA.

 

Even the fact that we can distract them on foot... lmao... Leviathan-tribute-forms don't seem efficient. They could have thousands of friggin autotargetting guns taking down everyone surrounding them.