46 réponses à ce sujet

[myahele]

Now that Corypheus has mastered his Taint I guess whatever Tainted the the magister won't work on Corypheus anymore. So if he can get passed that obstacle it'll just be a matter of him exploring the place and discover/use whatever he finds in the Black City if there's anything there

[ModernAcademic]

She's speculating if  he's right, she has no idea.

 

Doesn't she? Morrigan's grimoire, Mythal's personal diary would have nothing to say about the Veil, the Evanuris and the great change coming to the world (hinted in Witch Hunt)?

 

I find that odd...

[Heimdall]

Doesn't she? Morrigan's grimoire, Mythal's personal diary would have nothing to say about the Veil, the Evanuris and the great change coming to the world (hinted in Witch Hunt)?

 

I find that odd...

The Grimoire misled Morrigan into thinking her mother was a body snatcher.  It apparently contained nothing about her being Mythal, seeing how shocked Morrigan was.

 

You really think she wrote the secrets of the universe into that thing?

[ModernAcademic]

The Grimoire misled Morrigan into thinking her mother was a body snatcher.  It apparently contained nothing about her being Mythal, seeing how shocked Morrigan was.

 

You really think she wrote the secrets of the universe into that thing?

 

I think the grimoire's contents were left vague for a specific reason: to keep the source of Morrigan's knowledge indecipherable to the player.

 

That way, the witch could come to know new concepts about magic lore from one game to another without it giving the impression that her sudden knowledge just popped out of nowhere. That would lead to suspension of disbelief.

 

 

That is a common resource used in literature. And nowadays, in video games. And it's not the first time Bioware has resorted to this. Remember the talk with Sovereign and all the dialog hinting at the Reapers' supposedly unknown origin in Mass Effect 1?

How did Bioware solve this? By introducing the existence of the race of Leviathans much later, in the third game of the series.

 

New information is introduced about an old subject by keeping the souce of the information mysterious from the beginning. Everyone knew about the existence of the Black City and the Magisters pursuit, but no one knew what happened in there and what did they find. Now the two facts seem much more correlated after Morrigan's dialog in DA:I. Apparently, the Black City is the means through which Corypheus achieved something akin to Godhood: effective immortality.

 

How did he learn that secret while inside the Black City? We can only speculate. Hence my apparently impossible-to-answer question in the first post.

At this point, all we can do is speculate...

[Heimdall]

I think the grimoire's contents were left vague for a specific reason: to keep the source of Morrigan's knowledge indecipherable to the player.
 
That way, the witch could come to know new concepts about magic lore from one game to another without it giving the impression that her sudden knowledge just popped out of nowhere. That would lead to suspension of disbelief.

That doesn't track. Morrigan says her knowledge comes from her studies of ancient elvhen artifacts and lore. They never take it beyond that and they don't have to. Even with that knowledge, she doesn't know some pretty basic things, like Fen'Harel being a god of rebellion or the identity of her mother. She doesn't know much more than is available to modern Thedas scholars. Plus she needed to steal another book entirely to get her first Eluvian working. If anything Bioware has made clear that Morrigan is resourceful about gathering knowledge from many sources, even the obscure. Besides, its been ten years since we last saw her. I don't think we need an excuse to explain her learning a thing or two in that time.
 
 

That is a common resource used in literature. And nowadays, in video games. And it's not the first time Bioware has resorted to this. Remember the talk with Sovereign and all the dialog hinting at the Reapers' supposedly unknown origin in Mass Effect 1?
How did Bioware solve this? By introducing the existence of the race of Leviathans much later, in the third game of the series.
 
New information is introduced about an old subject by keeping the souce of the information mysterious from the beginning. Everyone knew about the existence of the Black City and the Magisters pursuit, but no one knew what happened in there and what did they find. Now the two facts seem much more correlated after Morrigan's dialog in DA:I. Apparently, the Black City is the means through which Corypheus achieved something akin to Godhood: effective immortality.
 
How did he learn that secret while inside the Black City? We can only speculate. Hence my apparently impossible-to-answer question in the first post.
At this point, all we can do is speculate...

I don't see how the Mass Effect example relates. They didn't keep the information source secret in Mass Effect, they didn't tell us anything in the first game at all beyond "we're Reapers, here to smash, roll with it". It wasn't a device, more they just didn't bother to think up a reason behind the Reapers until later, so they hid it behind vague but impressive sounding non-answer statements.

Whatever Cory found there clearly changed him, made him more than human. It isn't hard to speculate that there's something remarkable in there, something powerful. That's what Morrigan does.

[Ahriman]

There's definately something in there, otherwise Old Gods wouldn't push Magister to get there and I don't doubt their expertise on this matter. Still it seems their knowledge was outdated which resulted in "Instruction were unclear, ended up destroying Tevinter". Actually now when I think about it, it seems weird that Cory never mention what Old Gods told them to do once they finally enter Gold City.

[MrMrPendragon]

Why entering the Black City turns you into a God?

 

(About the question, consult Morrigan in Skyhold about Corypheus considering you a rival)

 

I think it's more of a crowning achievement than having access to power that you may/may not have the capability to control.

 

The Golden City is almost a universal constant in Thedas. If one somehow manages to master its secrets, then that it's an indication that the person is incredibly powerful, almost TOO powerful for a normal person.

 

You don't actually become godlike, but reaching the Golden City is such a big feat that it's considered by the people of Thedas as an achievement only godlike beings can do.

[Samahl na Revas]

I am of the opinion that there truly is something locked up within the Golden/Black City. And that the Taint either is a defence mechanism or is actually what is sealed within

 

When you look that the mural below, you see the faint silhouette of a city/building: 

 

In either case, mastering the Taint will should give you powers regardless.

The taint as a defence mechanism, I had not considered that. Instead, I thought of red lyrium as a defence mechanism because it turns other things into red lyrium but it too would need to be quarantined.

 

 Either way, I share your opinion that something is locked away, but we wont know more until other seeds are planted or more is revealed.

 

On a side note: Anyone have Solas script, every word he spoke? Not the romance there are plenty of that online. I'm currently watching one that is an hour long lol. Hopefully it has what I need.

[BillyBanana]

The game says that he made it into the Black City in the Hushed Whispers future right? The few codex entries imply that he gained some sort of power but he wasnt able to control the breach or all the demons that entered Thedas. Hard to say what entering the City really does but humans are propably not able to use whatever it offers/does.

[Heimdall]

The game says that he made it into the Black City in the Hushed Whispers future right? The few codex entries imply that he gained some sort of power but he wasnt able to control the breach or all the demons that entered Thedas. Hard to say what entering the City really does but humans are propably not able to use whatever it offers/does.

I think it says that he conquered the world with his demon army, but I don't think he was able to get to the City.

[TraiHarder]

The taint as a defence mechanism, I had not considered that. Instead, I thought of red lyrium as a defence mechanism because it turns other things into red lyrium but it too would need to be quarantined.

 

 Either way, I share your opinion that something is locked away, but we wont know more until other seeds are planted or more is revealed.

 

On a side note: Anyone have Solas script, every word he spoke? Not the romance there are plenty of that online. I'm currently watching one that is an hour long lol. Hopefully it has what I need.

 

Just youtube it what do you want his script for?

[Samahl na Revas]

Just youtube it what do you want his script for?

I am trying to proof a theory I may not believe in but conceived sometime ago that the stories of Spirits Solas tells are actually fragments of the Elven gods taken from each blight. More so, the spirits he visited may have been shaped by the memories of these once Elven gods.

 

There are 3 spirits in the stories accounting for 3 blights and influences. One is complicated and easily debatable. And Kieran has one if he was born with such spirit. 5 spirits 5 blights and if Kieran was not born with such spirit, it would not matter. Therefore 4 spirits and 4 influences. 

 

So far, I have the spirit who no one has a name for as Elgar'nan, the matchmaker as Sylaise  ,The shadow godess as Andruil.  The spirit of wisdom saved from the binding circles of the mages; Ghilan'nain goddess of navigation. 

 

There is also Kieran and Mythal but they do not matter. I no longer need a script, I found what I am looking for, but I am uncertain whether I should publish such findings with deeper analysis. It actually fits but that is also the problem.

[LightningPoodle]

I am trying to proof a theory I may not believe in but conceived sometime ago that the stories of Spirits Solas tells are actually fragments of the Elven gods taken from each blight. More so, the spirits he visited may have been shaped by the memories of these once Elven gods.

 

There are 3 spirits in the stories accounting for 3 blights and influences. One is complicated and easily debatable. And Kieran has one if he was born with such spirit. 5 spirits 5 blights and if Kieran was not born with such spirit it would not matter. Therefore 4 spirits and 4 influences. 

 

So far, I have the spirit who no one has a name for as Elgar'nan, the matchmaker as Sylaise  ,The shadow godess as Andruil.  The spirit of wisdom saved from the binding circles of the mages; Ghilan'nain goddess of navigation. 

 

There is also Kieran and Mythal but they do not matter. I no longer need a script, I found what I am looking for, but I am uncertain whether I should publish such findings with deeper analysis. It actually fits but that is also the problem.

 

Do it. Share your idea.

[In Exile]

So... why does Morrigan suggest you can use the Anchor to enter the Black City if you wish to achieve Godhood, thus becoming his rival?

 

The Anchor does let you physically go into the Veil. She's right that - if you could figure it out - you could probably go into the Black City. But as she suggests later, him doing it could kill us all. 

[Captmorgan72]

 

 

 

 

The taint would appear to give the darkspawn Magisters and the archdemons the same sort of possibility for continued existence through their soul/spirit jumping to a similarly tainted body.   I have to assume the reason why this causes the destruction of the host when an archdemon jumps to a Grey Warden but not if Cory does, is that with the former they resist the jump, whereas Cory already controls their mind and so the passage is permitted.    Hence Flemeth declaring that a soul can never be forced on the unwilling.

If Corypheus can control the minds of Grey Wardens how was he ever trapped by Grey Wardens? It is implied that he doesn't really control the minds of Grey Wardens, more like he can influence them. This still does not make the Warden's willing to allow Corypheus to take their bodies though. Remember Flemeth's words, a soul can never be forced on the unwilling. Some people suggested he can control them by binding demons with blood magic to their bodies. Ok, so how does he control the demons then? The demon is bound to the Warden, giving the Warden control not Corypheus and Corypheus can not control the minds of Wardens. 

[In Exile]

If Corypheus can control the minds of Grey Wardens how was he ever trapped by Grey Wardens? It is implied that he doesn't really control the minds of Grey Wardens, more like he can influence them. This still does not make the Warden's willing to allow Corypheus to take their bodies though. Remember Flemeth's words, a soul can never be forced on the unwilling. Some people suggested he can control them by binding demons with blood magic to their bodies. Ok, so how does he control the demons then? The demon is bound to the Warden, giving the Warden control not Corypheus and Corypheus can not control the minds of Wardens. 

 

You've gotten it a bit wrong. The binding of a demon to a Warden allows the caster to control the Warden to whom a demon is a bound. 

 

It's not clear what Corypheus did to control the Wardens near to him, but it's implied it was the same ritual that they used with the Warden mages (the fact that he had some Wardens with swords, I think, was just a communication issue between writers/animators).

[Dean_the_Young]

I think it says that he conquered the world with his demon army, but I don't think he was able to get to the City.

 

It's implied that he hasn't- hence why he keeps forcing Alexius to research time magic on how to get the Anchor from the Inquisitor. But Alexius can't, because time magic limits before the veil breaches, which is why Alexius is afraid of Corypheus's wrath in the bad future.

 

Basically- Corypheus is able to conquer the world, and sets himself up, but is still trying to get in.

 

The Black City is the source of the Blight.

The Blight can be used to control a great number of people.

Infect everyone, and acquire control over the Blight like Corypheus, and you rule the world.

 

 

It might be better to say that the Black City was the arms vault of Andruil's Spear.

 

 

In the Temple of Mythal, there are a series of untranslatable inscriptions that you can read if you drink from the Well. One of them touches on the potency of the weapon of power that Andruil, Goddess of the Hunt, had prepared.

 

 

Veilfire writing from a ruin in the Arbor Wilds; the script is so ancient it defies translation.

There are whispers from the Well of Sorrows. It's impossible to understand the entire text, but certain parts suddenly reveal a shadow of their original meaning.

"She shook the radiance of the stars, divided them into grains of light, then stored them in a shaft of gold. Andruil, blood and force, save us from the time this weapon is thrown. Your people pray to You. Spare us the moment we become Your sacrifice."

There is a brief image of an elaborate golden spear, glowing with unbearable heat. Then it fades.

 

 

From the deep lore of the backstories, this fits a couple of different things-

 

-That the elven gods, in their competition/power mad status, were preparing great and devastating magic super-weapons could have destroyed the world.

-Andruil was the goddess most associated with hunting the pillars of the Earth (the titans), and is said to have fashioned armor from the void (which is a term that refers to the lyrium-supported space inside of Titans)

-We know that the hunting of the Titans entered some near-catastrophic point, and the Primivial Taig implies that at least one was corrupted by Blight-related power

-We know there are some references to Blight/Corruption existing in the deep in the ancient time- pre-dating the Blight

-There are insinuations that the Ancient Elves experimented with biological meddling- tampering with the 'soulless' proto-dwarves and giving them Dreams, possible creation of the Qunari as a slave race

-Andruil created an armor of the void- the Void is a place referring to Titans, and lyrium-armor is a point in Descent

-Andruil's armor is said to have driven her mad- which correlates with the effects of Red Lyrium equipment (see- Meredith)

-Andruil, and likely her weapon, were among the elven deity forces sealed away in the raising of the Veil

-The elven gods were sealed in the fade in such a way and place that they are not known to most who enter

-'Gold' is a theme or identifier used very, very rarely in Dragon Age's lore- primarily Andruil's spear, and the Golden City, which was golden before Blight

-The Golden City, or what was inside it, is recognized as the infection point at which the Tevinter Magisters took the Blight

-That the Blights are lorded over by their masters, the Arch Demons, who take the form of Dragons

-The ancient elves considered dragon shapes the form reserved for the gods

 

If we take the 'spear of light' as less a literalism (not an actual spear when used) and more of a figurativism, we can make a reasonable theory:

 

 

The Blight was a magical super-weapon created/refined by Andruil for a gods war, during or after the Titans, when the Titan-hunters were looking at ways to 'make the ground flower with their passing' and to change the dwarves from their soulless forms.

 

Andruil got corruption... somehow. Possibly by the armor of the void, red lyrium. Before the madness, Andruil gathered the basic power, and created the golden spear and stored it somewhere save.

 

Solas raised the veil- trapping the gods, but also Andruil's armory with the Golden Spear- with the armory being the Golden City.

 

The Golden City city was the weapon/it's vault in it's pre-tampered state, the 'golden shaft' of light- the power of the Gods.

 

That the Old Gods- whether they were the Elven Gods or not- knew of this stored super-weapon, and that's why they directed the Magisters/their priests to open it- promising the power of the Gods.

 

That the Ancient Magisters, through sacfirice and ritual and all that, forced their way- and promptly got affected by Andruil's Spear, which was corrupted by them/corrupted them and produced the first 'modern' darkspawn.

 

 

It certainly fits within the scope of the possible- especially when you consider that the Blight would be really, really advantageous as a superweapon to be lorded over. Entralled, absolutely obediant servants, sacrificed to the spear as the extension of the weapon? Check. Unique magics, special powers, and fantastic capacity to spread and conquer? Check. Megalomaniac godking in the form of the gods to lord over them? Check.

 

If you don't mind the ugliness of the Blight- and the corruption might not have been intentional- it'd certainly suggest a deliberate weapon thought up by a megalomaniacal god-king.

[Ahriman]

There's a thing which separates Golden City and Elven Gods. Golden Throne. It's real (according to Cory) and, what's important, it's the only one which doesn't really fit elven power balance.

Personally I had theory that Maker and his absence has something to do with Blight. Andrastians always talk how Maker will return when Chant will be sung in all corners of the world. But there's also another Song constantly referred in game - the one which is heared be darkspawns. So you can connect the dots.

[Samahl na Revas]

There's a thing which separates Golden City and Elven Gods. Golden Throne. It's real (according to Cory) and, what's important, it's the only one which doesn't really fit elven power balance.

Personally I had theory that Maker and his absence has something to do with Blight. Andrastians always talk how Maker will return when Chant will be sung in all corners of the world. But there's also another Song constantly referred in game - the one which is heared be darkspawns. So you can connect the dots.

Quite the opposite, connecting the dots is rather hard. There is one more Song which is heard by the Dwarves. There is no certainty about how the blight was created so its song could be the cause of something else. What I mean is the blight corrupts and twist the living which either die or become the foundation for byproducts and vessel carriers of the blight. Andrastians are very much like you and I, they speak of rumor and speculation, but unfortunately mold these ideas so they are better understood. 

 

Speculation: echoing the myth that the two god factions may have been producing weapons to assault each other. One conclusion could be that the blight and red-lyrium were super weapons. I admit in my speculation I am unsure as to which faction controls which weapon. The problem it would seem for me is that the war sounds like a 3 faction war with Titans being crippled instead of a 2 faction war. If so red lyrium is an accident the blight a weapon of the Evanuris/Old gods and one more super weapon remains. Then there is blood magic for which the blight could be a counter. It is hard to connect the dots, the Black City houses knowledge and that is enough.

[Heimdall]

-Andruil was the goddess most associated with hunting the pillars of the Earth (the titans), and is said to have fashioned armor from the void (which is a term that refers to the lyrium-supported space inside of Titans)

Wait,could you give a source for that? I've never heard it though it would be major if true.
 

-There are insinuations that the Ancient Elves experimented with biological meddling- tampering with the 'soulless' proto-dwarves and giving them Dreams, possible creation of the Qunari as a slave race

Mythal's doing for the dwarves, I'm guessing her efforts to tie them to the Fade are what severed their connection to the Titans.
 
I think the current evidence points more to Tevinter for the qunari(Kossith?). One of the mosaics indicates there were qunari slaves in the ancient Imperium and Corypheus' line about them not be a race, but a mistake seems to indicate he knows of their origins.

It certainly fits within the scope of the possible- especially when you consider that the Blight would be really, really advantageous as a superweapon to be lorded over. Entralled, absolutely obediant servants, sacrificed to the spear as the extension of the weapon? Check. Unique magics, special powers, and fantastic capacity to spread and conquer? Check. Megalomaniac godking in the form of the gods to lord over them? Check.
 
If you don't mind the ugliness of the Blight- and the corruption might not have been intentional- it'd certainly suggest a deliberate weapon thought up by a megalomaniacal god-king.

If the Blight really did start as Andruil's weapon, I think its current form might be unintentional, the result of uncontrolled mutation or simply the corrupting nature of the power she used to create it.

I also tend to think that the Old Gods are victims of the Blight, not its masters, it seems to me they go mad just as Andruil did in the story, even if they remain intelligent.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wait,could you give a source for that? I've never heard it though it would be major if true.

 

As I recall, it's the name of one of the areas when you're exploring the Titan in Descent. Maybe it was Abyss?

 

I know it was Descent, and that it used a term that popped up in the Elven lore.

 

 

Mythal's doing for the dwarves, I'm guessing her efforts to tie them to the Fade are what severed their connection to the Titans.
 
I think the current evidence points more to Tevinter for the qunari(Kossith?). One of the mosaics indicates there were qunari slaves in the ancient Imperium and Corypheus' line about them not be a race, but a mistake seems to indicate he knows of their origins.

 

 

I agree- but I think that the relationship between the ancient elven gods and Tevinter is close enough that they could be related. Even the origins of Humans is a mystery- and could be a product of manipulation.

 

I really wouldn't be surprised if dwarves are the product of Elven tampering with Titan-spawn, humans are elven tampering on elf-slaves, and then Qunari are more of the same involving dragons. We already know that one of the elven goddesses had a thing for creating lots and lots of monsters- sentient modification is well within their perview.

 

If the Blight really did start as Andruil's weapon, I think its current form might be unintentional, the result of uncontrolled mutation or simply the corrupting nature of the power she used to create it.

I also tend to think that the Old Gods are victims of the Blight, not its masters, it seems to me they go mad just as Andruil did in the story, even if they remain intelligent.

 

 

 

Given how vague the Old Gods motivations and character are, it could be anything: an accidental corruption, or a deliberate and malevolent gambit for total conquest and domination of Remnant.

 

What does seem clear is that the Old Gods knew what was in the Golden City when they directed the Magisters to it, and that they had ambitions of using it for themselves. Whether the Blight was something that went horribly wrong, or horribly right... well, I think they're both plausible and possible.

[Heimdall]

As I recall, it's the name of one of the areas when you're exploring the Titan in Descent. Maybe it was Abyss?
 
I know it was Descent, and that it used a term that popped up in the Elven lore.

The areas in the Titan are called the Bastion of the Pure and The Wellspring. I don't recall any landmark titles that stuck out.
 
 

I agree- but I think that the relationship between the ancient elven gods and Tevinter is close enough that they could be related. Even the origins of Humans is a mystery- and could be a product of manipulation.
 
I really wouldn't be surprised if dwarves are the product of Elven tampering with Titan-spawn, humans are elven tampering on elf-slaves, and then Qunari are more of the same involving dragons. We already know that one of the elven goddesses had a thing for creating lots and lots of monsters- sentient modification is well within their perview.

What we know seems to say that humans arrived from elsewhere. I'd be surprised if elves were at all involved in their origins.
 
 Speaking of monsters, I wonder when the devs realized they never put a single Varterral in all these elven ruins...

Given how vague the Old Gods motivations and character are, it could be anything: an accidental corruption, or a deliberate and malevolent gambit for total conquest and domination of Remnant.
 
What does seem clear is that the Old Gods knew what was in the Golden City when they directed the Magisters to it, and that they had ambitions of using it for themselves. Whether the Blight was something that went horribly wrong, or horribly right... well, I think they're both plausible and possible.

I think the Old Gods thought they knew what was there, but what happened next was unexpected. Why would all the Gods go silent afterwards? Why was Mythal determined to preserve the untainted Urthemiel? Why was Solas horrified at the idea of killing all the Old Gods?

I really hope Bioware digs deep into the Old Gods and dragon lore in general in DA4, there are a lot of questions.