314 réponses à ce sujet

[Mlady]

Fatal flaw in your idea:

First line describes an elf walking up to a city, it then goes on to describe the city, and nowhere is it golden. The gates thrown open in the last line are referencing the city in the first line. Since the memory is describing an elf walking up to a fairly detailed description that never says golden, and finds the gates open, it's more logical to assume that the elf reached his destination, than to contort the entry to mean something that it doesn't even imply.

 

No one said Arlathan was golden. That's Chantry stuff (they even said the Maker made the Veil lol). The gates and spires are the hint that connect it to the gates of the Black City. Since Mythal likes to nudge history, I suspect she spoke through Andraste and told of what her empire once looked like. I also go by what Cole said in the Fade when we are near the broken pieces of the Black City tainted by the Blight. He says "They still remember when they were higher, before it woke up and everything fell." And Solas said the cities floated and Trespasser confirms that his Veil caused many to fall to their deaths when it all crumbled.

 

The empire and Fade were connected and is why things were so magical and unreal, so when we entered the Fade awake, we saw the mess left behind by the Veil, and the Shattered Library that was connected to the Fade looks like the Fade when you wander it in Trespasser.

 

Basically part of the elven empire is in Thedas and the other half is in the Fade, the City most likely being where Solas sealed away whatever whispered to the Magisters. I'm guessing Titan related stuff. The ones Cole says are trapped behind the mirrors, sleeping and suffering are the ones I'm not sure about. I doubt they are the Evanuris though. Solas wouldn't care for their pain.

[Ashagar]

Except its not just the chantry that states the black city was golden, the Tevinter and likely other peoples clearly saw and recorded the city as being golden as well until the 7 magisters and the first blight and then it was black afterwords Also the chantry states that the maker created the world and the fade, something the ancient northern Neromenians tribes and the ancient Tevinter Imperium believed as well not that he create specifically created the veil.

 

Also there's the little issue of how Tevinter could destroy the remains of the elven capital long after Solas created the veil by sinking it into the earth and it be in the fade at the same time in the meantime.

[robertthebard]

No one said Arlathan was golden. That's Chantry stuff (they even said the Maker made the Veil lol). The gates and spires are the hint that connect it to the gates of the Black City. Since Mythal likes to nudge history, I suspect she spoke through Andraste and told of what her empire once looked like. I also go by what Cole said in the Fade when we are near the broken pieces of the Black City tainted by the Blight. He says "They still remember when they were higher, before it woke up and everything fell." And Solas said the cities floated and Trespasser confirms that his Veil caused many to fall to their deaths when it all crumbled.
 
The empire and Fade were connected and is why things were so magical and unreal, so when we entered the Fade awake, we saw the mess left behind by the Veil, and the Shattered Library that was connected to the Fade looks like the Fade when you wander it in Trespasser.
 
Basically part of the elven empire is in Thedas and the other half is in the Fade, the City most likely being where Solas sealed away whatever whispered to the Magisters. I'm guessing Titan related stuff. The ones Cole says are trapped behind the mirrors, sleeping and suffering are the ones I'm not sure about. I doubt they are the Evanuris though. Solas wouldn't care for their pain.

If you're describing a city that's not Golden, it cannot be the Golden City. Everything we have, not just the Chantry, but everything we have that references the Black City says it used to be the Golden City, seat of the Maker, etc etc. So now, we're having to twist known lore even more to accommodate this theory. As I said in my first post here: If you have to change the lore to fit the theory, there's something wrong with the theory.

[Reznore57]

The ancient elves did like their gold.

There's lots of gold in Mythal's temple , and in the artbook the artists notes says it was supposed to be golden but time wore most of the bling out.

So for now I will stand by the ancient elves probably build the Golden City , fits with their sense of aesthetic , fit with their magical feasts (Crossroad , able to fart a temple out of thin air with magic ) fits with part of their mythology :the Dalish believe their gods were in an "Eternal City" , how many mysterious and legendary city can you have in store?

Solas gets giddy when he sees the city if you take him to the Fade , the guy only gets giddy about old elven stuff and relic .

 

Besides let's face it , the ancient elves were killing Titans and doing who knows what , if there was a mysterious Golden City they would have checked it out and probably conquer it for themselves.

[Judas Bock]

The ancient elves did like their gold.

There's lots of gold in Mythal's temple , and in the artbook the artists notes says it was supposed to be golden but time wore most of the bling out.

So for now I will stand by the ancient elves probably build the Golden City , fits with their sense of aesthetic , fit with their magical feasts (Crossroad , able to fart a temple out of thin air with magic ) fits with part of their mythology :the Dalish believe their gods were in an "Eternal City" , how many mysterious and legendary city can you have in store?

Solas gets giddy when he sees the city if you take him to the Fade , the guy only gets giddy about old elven stuff and relic .

 

Besides let's face it , the ancient elves were killing Titans and doing who knows what , if there was a mysterious Golden City they would have checked it out and probably conquer it for themselves.

 

I think the bolded part really is the thing that can't be explained away. As prideful as the Evanuris were they would not have allowed such a magnificent and unique thing to be anything but their own, so even if the Golden City was not originally elven they would likely have either conquered it or destroyed it to show that they were the best.

 

They obviously didn't destroy it, as it still exists today. Thus either they created it themselves, or they conquered it, which I don't think would be beyond them. The seven magisters managed to get to the City in a time after the Veil separated them from the Fade even further, so I think it would have been child's play for the Evanuris to get there.

 

Now, does this mean that it is actually Arlathan? No. But since we know that Arlathan was the central point of the Elvhen world, and the City - a magnificent spiraled city which the Evanuris would undoubtedly have had some connection to - is the central point of the Fade, I think it lines up perfectly well.

[Mlady]

The ancient elves did like their gold.

There's lots of gold in Mythal's temple , and in the artbook the artists notes says it was supposed to be golden but time wore most of the bling out.

So for now I will stand by the ancient elves probably build the Golden City , fits with their sense of aesthetic , fit with their magical feasts (Crossroad , able to fart a temple out of thin air with magic ) fits with part of their mythology :the Dalish believe their gods were in an "Eternal City" , how many mysterious and legendary city can you have in store?

Solas gets giddy when he sees the city if you take him to the Fade , the guy only gets giddy about old elven stuff and relic .

 

Besides let's face it , the ancient elves were killing Titans and doing who knows what , if there was a mysterious Golden City they would have checked it out and probably conquer it for themselves.

 

That's what I am sticking with too. I trust nothing from the Chantry or Tevinter due to how things are twisted to make them all look better. We know that the Fade and Elven Empire were once one and when the Veil came down it all fell and Cole says as much in the Fade. That's proof enough for me. 

 

As for being literally Golden if such claims were proven, due to magic and combining it with the Fade, the elves created the most amazing things! Did you see that giant gold statue of Fen'Harel in the Shattered Library? That thing was incredible!

 

And yeah Elgar'nan had slaves create statues of him from the corpse of a Titan. Sick stuff.

[Mlady]

Except its not just the chantry that states the black city was golden, the Tevinter and likely other peoples clearly saw and recorded the city as being golden as well until the 7 magisters and the first blight and then it was black afterwords Also the chantry states that the maker created the world and the fade, something the ancient northern Neromenians tribes and the ancient Tevinter Imperium believed as well not that he create specifically created the veil.

 

Also there's the little issue of how Tevinter could destroy the remains of the elven capital long after Solas created the veil by sinking it into the earth and it be in the fade at the same time in the meantime.

 

Seeing as Abelas said Tevinter didn't destroy the empire, the elves did. My guess? Something weird happened when Solas created the Veil and sealed away the false Gods and whatever was not affected by the sealing remained in Thedas. Sort of like when Corpyheus lifts up part of the Temple and makes it float in the sky. It was a part removed from everything due to the Blight. Also if they were at war with Titans and Titans shape the earth, things might have shifted around. It's hard to say, but Titans seem to be the key since their blood is the cause of so many issues.

 

If you're describing a city that's not Golden, it cannot be the Golden City. Everything we have, not just the Chantry, but everything we have that references the Black City says it used to be the Golden City, seat of the Maker, etc etc. So now, we're having to twist known lore even more to accommodate this theory. As I said in my first post here: If you have to change the lore to fit the theory, there's something wrong with the theory.

 

We saw gold statues and know the elves could make things too beautiful to be believed because of the Fade. Golden streets, music, it's all pure magic. What I'm curious about is how Solas creating the Veil was twisted into the Maker creating it.

[Aren]

I do. It's the place where Solas imprisoned the Evanuris. The Evanuris created the Blight in order to assume direct control ™ of everyone. I think a world full of Blighted people controlled by a cabal of Evanuris would be enough to make Solas take some drastic steps.

Solas said that the Evanuris were ready to destroy the entire world maybe through the taint.

I have never understood as for why the taint should be considered as a tool for mind controlling it isn't,it' the calling that song is maybe a form of magic not related to the old gods only,since even the Nightmare demon was capable to do it.

[robertthebard]

We saw gold statues and know the elves could make things too beautiful to be believed because of the Fade. Golden streets, music, it's all pure magic. What I'm curious about is how Solas creating the Veil was twisted into the Maker creating it.

The same way that any millennia old event gets twisted to something else. Take 12 people, sit in a circle, whisper a line to the first one, and see if that line is the same when it gets back to you. I've never seen it happen. That's the problem with oral traditions, they can get twisted to something else in a relatively short frame of time, and that twisted truth gets twisted more as time goes on. People are aware of the Fade, they are aware of the real world, and they are aware that both are separated. If one believes the Maker made everything, then believing, and teaching that the Maker made the Veil isn't as "AH HA" as you might have thought.

[Ariella]

The same way that any millennia old event gets twisted to something else. Take 12 people, sit in a circle, whisper a line to the first one, and see if that line is the same when it gets back to you. I've never seen it happen. That's the problem with oral traditions, they can get twisted to something else in a relatively short frame of time, and that twisted truth gets twisted more as time goes on. People are aware of the Fade, they are aware of the real world, and they are aware that both are separated. If one believes the Maker made everything, then believing, and teaching that the Maker made the Veil isn't as "AH HA" as you might have thought.

The watchmaker analogy comes to mind. Not perfect but close.

[Elfyoth]

Wtf wrong about stating a theory stfu you have yet to give any real argument to the theory other than OMG SOLAS DIDNT SAY ANTHYING ABOUT IT SO IT MUST MEAN NOTHING RIGHT BECAUSE I MEAN HES GONNA TELL US EVERYTHIIIINNNGGG RIGHT I MEAN HE WAS SOOOOOOOOO TRUTHFUL BEFORE

 

 

Yea stfu an actually give a real response.

"Somebody's been drinking..."

[Nonoru]

I don't think so.  Arlathan still existed in the physical world long after the elves started aging.  It was only destroyed centuries later when the Tevinter Imperium sunk it and there's no indication of the city ever not being there as yet.

 

There's no reason it can't exist in both realms if a library does. 

[Ieldra]

Here's what I think:

 

When the Veil came up, everything elven was sundered into two parts - the Fade aspect and the solid-world aspect. Elves themselves and much of their magical work had both aspects. The Golden City may be the Fade aspect of Arlathan, and the city eventually conquered by Tevinter was its solid-world aspect.

[Akiza]

Here's what I think:

 

When the Veil came up, everything elven was sundered into two parts - the Fade aspect and the solid-world aspect. Elves themselves and much of their magical work had both aspects. The Golden City may be the Fade aspect of Arlathan, and the city eventually conquered by Tevinter was its solid-world aspect.

Interesting, since the solid aspect was destroyed the other part get corrupted?

But if i recall there are codex about the golden city and its power that was feared by the evanuris themselves,so it's also possible that the golden city has nothing to do with the elves,SOlas also do not speak much about it,maybe he does not know.

[Heimdall]

There's no reason it can't exist in both realms if a library does.

The library doesn't exist in either. It exists in a pocket dimension created by the ancient elves.

[CardButton]

 

Interesting, since the solid aspect was destroyed the other part get corrupted?

But if i recall there are codex about the golden city and its power that was feared by the evanuris themselves,so it's also possible that the golden city has nothing to do with the elves,SOlas also do not speak much about it,maybe he does not know.

 

Well to be fair when it comes to Ancient Elven related stuff Solas is pretty tight lipped, just look at how he behaved at the Temple of Mythal (he did a whole lot of scoffing, but he didn't add much to the conversation).  I wouldn't expect him to tell us much about the Black City since his whole shtick before his reveal was (I like to be in the fade in my dreams because of the history there, that's how I know so much), but you can only presumably reach the Black City by being physically in the Fade ... we were to assume that he didn't know much about it by that point in the game as he never had the ability to get there.  

 

Now though, who knows?  If the Fade and the Physical World were once one, then who knows what that will mean for the Black City?  I'm either on the it's Arlathan (and he made it a prison for the Evanuris) or it's Pandora's Box and that's how the Evanuris intended on destroying the world thought wagons.

[CardButton]

The library doesn't exist in either. It exists in a pocket dimension created by the ancient elves.

Well if the Elves were able to find/create that pocket dimension and build things there, what was preventing them from building inside the Fade itself? Presumably the signature thing preventing the Tevinter Magisters from waltzing around in the Fade physically whenever they wanted was the Veil itself, but since that wouldn't have existed for the Elvhen then couldn't they presumably go into the Fade physically with very little effort?  

 

I suppose we really don't know what the Fade was like before the creation of the Veil, but it doesn't seem too outlandish to assume that the Elves could go there and create things if they so desired. 

[Iakus]

Except its not just the chantry that states the black city was golden, the Tevinter and likely other peoples clearly saw and recorded the city as being golden as well until the 7 magisters and the first blight and then it was black afterwords Also the chantry states that the maker created the world and the fade, something the ancient northern Neromenians tribes and the ancient Tevinter Imperium believed as well not that he create specifically created the veil.

 

Also there's the little issue of how Tevinter could destroy the remains of the elven capital long after Solas created the veil by sinking it into the earth and it be in the fade at the same time in the meantime.

The Golden (now Blackened) City was the one fixed point in the Fade.  It's visible from anywhere.  Anyone who visits the Fade can see it, so it's not likely that any lie about it being "Golden" could long last.

[CardButton]

The Golden (now Blackened) City was the one fixed point in the Fade.  It's visible from anywhere.  Anyone who visits the Fade can see it, so it's not likely that any lie about it being "Golden" could long last.

Not necessarily, remember the first blight occurred before the advancement of the Andrastian faith. Who knows how much damage the First Blight did to historical records, or how much more further damage the rise of the Andrastianism caused 2 centuries later.  While it does seem that the Magister's entering the Cities boundaries had something to do with the start of the Blights, there really is no guarantee that the Golden City was ever Golden.  It could just as easily be a lie conceived by a new up and coming religion to validate their philosophies and honestly it would not have been hard to get that sentiment (the Magisters defiling the seat of the maker) to become popular in people that had just spent the last two centuries thinking the world was coming to an end.  

 

People wanted someone or something to blame for the hardships they had endured at the hands of the Darkspawn, the Andrastian religion probably gained as much popularity as it did (as fast as it did) because it gave the people this, and hope.  It's remarkable the effect a combination of fear and hope can have on how history is remembered.

[Medhia_Nox]

@CardButton:  Regardless of what happened after... it would be interested to hear why the Tevinter tried to break into a city that didn't look Golden. 

[CardButton]

@CardButton:  Regardless of what happened after... it would be interested to hear why the Tevinter tried to break into a city that didn't look Golden. 

Because it is a city that you seemingly cannot get to yet can be seen from anywhere in the fade and they had those wonderful dragon gods whispering in their ears that if they did so, they would gain immense power.  Knowledge, power, the chance to physically meet your gods in the Fade, and the potential for immortality all seem like pretty good incentives to me, golden or not.

[Medhia_Nox]

@CardButton:  Not to me, powermongers disgust me.  

 

So, why would they call it a Golden City if it looked like the Black City that can be seen in the Fade today?  There's no actual reason for that.  I get that you're suggesting the Adrastian religion simply supplanted the Golden City concept to fit their religion... but the Tevinter have already molded Andrasteanism to their own purposes... there's no real reason to believe if the city weren't originally Black and Dumat told them to break into the Black City that they wouldn't pride themselves on having esoteric knowledge... being Tevinter and all. 

 

I think there's too much effort put into making the Chantry seem wrong to trust most fan theories. 

[Heimdall]

Well if the Elves were able to find/create that pocket dimension and build things there, what was preventing them from building inside the Fade itself? Presumably the signature thing preventing the Tevinter Magisters from waltzing around in the Fade physically whenever they wanted was the Veil itself, but since that wouldn't have existed for the Elvhen then couldn't they presumably go into the Fade physically with very little effort?  

 

I suppose we really don't know what the Fade was like before the creation of the Veil, but it doesn't seem too outlandish to assume that the Elves could go there and create things if they so desired. 

I don't have any proof that the elves couldn't have built anything in the fade, but we don't have any proof of them doing so either.  Why create new pocket dimensions if they could have done that?  I was given the impression that the ancient elves didn't enter the Fade physically at all, that they were content to explore it through dreams or conscious exploration.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Hiemdall:  Not to mention that the roads where the Eluvians lead are "in between" the Fade and Thedas.  They're not IN the Fade. 

 

The Fade is "too much thought" to build in permanently. 

Thedas is "too much material" to build in magically.

[CardButton]

@CardButton:  Not to me, powermongers disgust me.  

 

So, why would they call it a Golden City if it looked like the Black City that can be seen in the Fade today?  There's no actual reason for that.  I get that you're suggesting the Adrastian religion simply supplanted the Golden City concept to fit their religion... but the Tevinter have already molded Andrasteanism to their own purposes... there's no real reason to believe if the city weren't originally Black and Dumat told them to break into the Black City that they wouldn't pride themselves on having esoteric knowledge... being Tevinter and all. 

 

I think there's too much effort put into making the Chantry seem wrong to trust most fan theories.

That's exactly what I think they did.    

 

Plus, while Tevinter may have molded the teaching of Andrasteanism to fit their own purposes the same could be said of Southern Thedas as well.  In the end though they are still Andrastian, just slightly different interpretations of it.  It's similar to how Protestantism and Catholicism vary on some beliefs but they are both fundamentally Christian (though I would equate due to the setting, era, and the two Devines of Thedas it being more historically representative of the relationship between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy). Also last I checked all of the Old Gods went silent after the city was breached, so both the knowledge of how to actually break into the Fade and the incentive to do so has been lost to history.

 

The beauty of it is, the only ones who may have had first person perspectives on the truth of the matter are the few remaining Ancient Elves that still exist and those very same Magisters that breached the Fade and devolved into madness (and neither side seem willing to talk about it). Cory never mentions a Golden or Black City in any of his dialogue after all.