314 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

But look at those pocket dimensions. Even if they're not the Fade, they behave in the same way (or in a very similar way). The physics, and architecture. It's very obvious that what we think of as the Fade (i.e., the location, the physical place) is probably another ancient Elvhen pocket dimension. Solas very likely took a part of the world and trapped it somewhere. Which is probably his screw-up - he wanted to trap the Evanuris, but ended up trapping a physical part of the world. 
 
That's what I think Bioware is hinted at re: the Eluvians. It fits with a lot of what we see in the physical Fade, and explains its peculiar physical properties (e.g. the floating rocks, the ruins, etc.). It's not like any other pocket dimension because of what is stored there (i.e., the non-physical Fade, the thing that was "everywhere" and "not a place one went" as Solas put it at Haven).

Except that they don't. A construct in one of the pocket dimensions will be the same in a thousand years, as it is now. Even "living" creatures in the Fade were different to everyone, yes, through the demon playing on their fears. However, the pocket dimensions are constant, once they're there, they are there. Pointing to the architecture doesn't really mean much, other than the same culture built it. I have yet to get a clear view of the Black City, which architectural styles are we comparing it to?

It's the only thing that is constant in the Fade. Given the nature of the Fade, that would mean that it would have to be ground zero for it's creation. This means that it predates the elves, and in fact, that it predates almost everything. The Chantry hints at this with "seat of the Maker". We even have a creation myth that states that the Spirits and Demons were the Maker's first children, thus predating the elves. There's a whole lot more out there that doesn't fit than does, and we've been asked to disregard most of that simply because it didn't fit. It's a case of "If a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's ass when it hopped". Frogs don't have wings, so they do. The Black City is historically older than Arlathan, therefore they cannot be the same place.

[CardButton]

Except that they don't. A construct in one of the pocket dimensions will be the same in a thousand years, as it is now. Even "living" creatures in the Fade were different to everyone, yes, through the demon playing on their fears. However, the pocket dimensions are constant, once they're there, they are there. Pointing to the architecture doesn't really mean much, other than the same culture built it. I have yet to get a clear view of the Black City, which architectural styles are we comparing it to?

It's the only thing that is constant in the Fade. Given the nature of the Fade, that would mean that it would have to be ground zero for it's creation. This means that it predates the elves, and in fact, that it predates almost everything. The Chantry hints at this with "seat of the Maker". We even have a creation myth that states that the Spirits and Demons were the Maker's first children, thus predating the elves. There's a whole lot more out there that doesn't fit than does, and we've been asked to disregard most of that simply because it didn't fit. It's a case of "If a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump it's ass when it hopped". Frogs don't have wings, so they do. The Black City is historically older than Arlathan, therefore they cannot be the same place.

But both of those creation myths are far newer than the Ancient Elves and we have no possible way of knowing whether the Black City predates the Elves themselves, because the only people that could confirm that are Solas and Abelas (and they aren't in a talkative mood).  Abelas says so himself "Your history is as short as your years, you would not know truth".

 

As for the pocket dimensions being unchanging, we don't know enough about them to make that distinction. From everything I personally saw in both the Crossroads and The Library, both seem to be in extreme states of decay.  You could argue that this damage occurred immediately following the creation of the Veil and that these locations have remained primarily untouched since them, but again the only people who could actually confirm that theory for us are the Ancient Elvhen themselves. 

 

There is just as much evidence out there to support the theory that the Black City is the focal point (not the creation point) of the Veil, as much as there is to argue that it is the focal point of the Fade itself.  We don't even know what the Fade was like prior the raising of the Veil, it could have been a very different place. Honestly, after playing through "What pride had wrought" a second time and adding in the revelation that the Fade and the Physical world were once Veil-less, i'm actually pretty convinced that the Black City is some form of Ancient Elvhen construct.   

[Heimdall]

But both of those creation myths are far newer than the Ancient Elves and we have no possible way of knowing whether the Black City predates the Elves themselves, because the only people that could confirm that are Solas and Abelas (and they aren't in a talkative mood).  Abelas says so himself "Your history is as short as your years, you would not know truth".

Well, we don't actually know how old that myth is.  Humans have apparently believed in an absent creator since before their arrival on the continent.  Even the Cult of the Old Gods acknowledged that their gods didn't create the world (If I recall, they actually see the Old Gods as existing outside the creator's plan and praise them for providing guidance to his abandoned children).  It stands to reason the Andrastian version of Creation is based on much older traditions, though the specifics are murkier.

[robertthebard]

But both of those creation myths are far newer than the Ancient Elves and we have no possible way of knowing whether the Black City predates the Elves themselves, because the only people that could confirm that are Solas and Abelas (and they aren't in a talkative mood).  Abelas says so himself "Your history is as short as your years, you would not know truth".

Citations needed. I need to see some codex entries, or quotes from some of the books for verification, not "If I fall back on existing lore, my theory doesn't work", which has been the pattern to date.
 

As for the pocket dimensions being unchanging, we don't know enough about them to make that distinction. From everything I personally saw in both the Crossroads and The Library, both seem to be in extreme states of decay.  You could argue that this damage occurred immediately following the creation of the Veil and that these locations have remained primarily untouched since them, but again the only people who could actually confirm that theory for us are the Ancient Elvhen themselves. 
 
There is just as much evidence out there to support the theory that the Black City is the focal point (not the creation point) of the Veil, as much as there is to argue that it is the focal point of the Fade itself.  We don't even know what the Fade was like prior the raising of the Veil, it could have been a very different place. Honestly, after playing through "What pride had wrought" a second time and adding in the revelation that the Fade and the Physical world were once Veil-less, i'm actually pretty convinced that the Black City is some form of Ancient Elvhen construct.

That's the rub, isn't it? Are we assuming then, that the pocket dimensions were different when they were commonly used to travel from city to city? Other than being more populated, and some of the Eluvians being broken or locked, and a distinct lack of travelers, what are we basing that on? Again, citations needed from official sources, not "but it breaks my theory".

What evidence suggests it's the focal point of the veil? Again, official citation needed. You are drawing these conclusions from somewhere, and I want to see where. If it's from head canon, then there is no evidence.

[CardButton]

Well, we don't actually know how old that myth is.  Humans have apparently believed in an absent creator since before their arrival on the continent.  Even the Cult of the Old Gods acknowledged that their gods didn't create the world (If I recall, they actually see the Old Gods as existing outside the creator's plan and praise them for providing guidance to his abandoned children).  It stands to reason the Andrastian version of Creation is based on much older traditions, though the specifics are murkier.

Well true, but we have no way of knowing how hold those traditions are (if they are really old how well did they hold up as "probably" primarily oral traditions) and they would have to, at bare minimum, predate the founding of the city of Arlathan which happened around 7600 Ancient (to put that in perspective that's over 6400 years before the founding of the Tevinter Imperium and 7500 years before the Chant of Light was compiled) to have any sort of rough validity.  

 

Plus, we have no idea how long the Ancient Elvhen Empire actually existed before the founding of Arlathan itself. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Morrigan states that the Crossroads are collapsing because there's nobody there to maintain it... the pocket dimensions are not unchanging. 

[CardButton]

Citations needed. I need to see some codex entries, or quotes from some of the books for verification, not "If I fall back on existing lore, my theory doesn't work", which has been the pattern to date.
 

That's the rub, isn't it? Are we assuming then, that the pocket dimensions were different when they were commonly used to travel from city to city? Other than being more populated, and some of the Eluvians being broken or locked, and a distinct lack of travelers, what are we basing that on? Again, citations needed from official sources, not "but it breaks my theory".

What evidence suggests it's the focal point of the veil? Again, official citation needed. You are drawing these conclusions from somewhere, and I want to see where. If it's from head canon, then there is no evidence.

Admittedly most of the information I'm using is from the Dragon Age wiki so I truthfully have no way of validating the information there, but if you are seriously arguing for the sake of the Codex's in game being a source of historical accuracy in DA, then I have this in retort (since you seem to have taken some offense by my presumptions).

 

The vast majority of codex entries we the player deal with where written by Humanity post the rise of the Andrastian faith.  While luckily we do get more Ancient Tevinter Imperium entries in DA:I, they still only date back to that of the Imperium itself.  We have very few "primary source" codex's that date back to the time of the Ancient Elvhen Empire.  We simply do not know the truth and if your using the codex entries in the games to justify your stance you should at least be aware that most of those Codex's are the interpretations of history by people who existed far after the events themselves.  Truth be told, humanity doesn't know crap about the Ancient Elves and because they don't know, we as the players simply don't know.

 

What evidence do you have the Black City was the focal point of Fade before the creation of the Veil (I'll certainly admit that it is now)?  What evidence do you have that the Black City predates the Ancient Elves themselves?  What evidence do you have the Veil was anything like how it is now, before the Veil went up?  I certainly do not doubt that the city predates the organized rise of humanity and their religions, but to assume that it also predates the Ancient Elvhen is a huge leap in logic with what we have been presented in the Franchise. 

[CardButton]

Morrigan states that the Crossroads are collapsing because there's nobody there to maintain it... the pocket dimensions are not unchanging. 

Edit: Sorry nvm, I totally misread this post with my first response. I feel dumb...    But yeah pretty much what Medhia said, if the pocket dimensions were unchanging they would not require maintenance to keep them from breaking down. 

[Heimdall]

Well true, but we have no way of knowing how hold those traditions are (if they are really old how well did they hold up as "probably" primarily oral traditions) and they would have to, at bare minimum, predate the founding of the city of Arlathan which happened around 7600 Ancient (to put that in perspective that's over 6400 years before the founding of the Tevinter Imperium and 7500 years before the Chant of Light was compiled) to have any sort of rough validity.  

 

Plus, we have no idea how long the Ancient Elvhen Empire actually existed before the founding of Arlathan itself. 

Well it would probably be as old as humans first arriving, I just don't think you can disqualify the Andrastian creation story on the grounds that it isn't old enough, even if the details are dubious.

[robertthebard]

Well it would probably be as old as humans first arriving, I just don't think you can disqualify the Andrastian creation story on the grounds that it isn't old enough, even if the details are dubious.

To add to this, where is it "borrowed" from? People worshipped the Maker before Andrastianism. We have stories from Origins about how she came to be the prophet she is now.

Regarding "written by people", yep, people in universe, indirectly, by people that created the universe. If I have to pick codex entries over theories that choose to ignore them, I'm taking codex entries. They are, after all, written by the people that wrote the entirety of the universe. I'll take their knowledge of the lore over "but you have to disregard this so my theory holds water" all day every day.

[CardButton]

To add to this, where is it "borrowed" from? People worshipped the Maker before Andrastianism. We have stories from Origins about how she came to be the prophet she is now.

Regarding "written by people", yep, people in universe, indirectly, by people that created the universe. If I have to pick codex entries over theories that choose to ignore them, I'm taking codex entries. They are, after all, written by the people that wrote the entirety of the universe. I'll take their knowledge of the lore over "but you have to disregard this so my theory holds water" all day every day.

What?! 

 

The Codex's are formatted in the game as if they are part of that game world.  Most, if not all, of the codex's (especially in DA:I) have authors, or are excerpts from some larger text.  While they do serve a practical function in terms of giving some lore to the Player, they are also lore themselves and representative of the Author and time in which they were written.  They are not simply just "Divine Exposition from the God Creators of the Dragon Age Franchise", that's why they are so much fun to read.  They are as much a part of Thedas as content they contain, which means they are subject to change or even straight up being wrong depending on the author's viewpoint or interpretation.  This idea is just awesome for world building! 

 

This is why there can be two different versions of the Andrastian faith, which allow for two different Devines to exist simultaneously.  It's a matter of perspective and I cannot wait to get my hands on some of the Tevinter Codex's (written by Tevinter authors of course) revolving their version of the religion itself, because it is assuredly going to have some significant differences.  I take most of codex's in the game with a grain of salt because I adore the idea of finding out the truth if it exists, or reaffirming that what we already know is in fact correct.  To take the Codex's at face value AS intrinsically correct just seems wasteful in such a rich setting, that if nothing else seems to realize that history is all too often defined not by factual truth, but by the perspectives and intents of those who write it.

[CardButton]

Well it would probably be as old as humans first arriving, I just don't think you can disqualify the Andrastian creation story on the grounds that it isn't old enough, even if the details are dubious.

Well assuming the root belief system existed around the time Humanity started exploring Thedas, then (again if the Wiki has any factual basis on this) it would have been about 4500 years after the founding of Arlathan.  Again though (thanks partially to the Qunari destroying the relics and artifacts surrounding Par Vollan, where it is thought humans originated) we really don't know what Religious were practiced by those early peoples.  They very well could have had a belief system that would eventually evolve into the Andrastian faith, they may have believed something completely different, it's hard to tell with what we have in the setting so far.

 

Did the Golden City exist as golden at some point, probably ... but is it the seat of the maker, I'm not so sure anymore.  It really comes down to what Thedas looked like when the Veil was a part of it, but when I think of how long the Ancient Elvhen had to explore the Veil (and how intrinsically connected they were to it) I do find it hard to believe they don't have something to do with the that City or it's contents.  

[Ashagar]

If nothing else we know there are lands beyond Thedas where the elven empire was centered, we also know that that the humans arrived in at least two major tribal groups one with group out of the north which was also the first to encounter the elves and dwarves another out of the distant west. Its seems very unlikely that these two major tribal groups came from the same land given their known sizable religious and cultural differences as well as migrating from completely different directions.

[robertthebard]

What?! 
 
The Codex's are formatted in the game as if they are part of that game world.  Most, if not all, of the codex's (especially in DA:I) have authors, or are excerpts from some larger text.  While they do serve a practical function in terms of giving some lore to the Player, they are also lore themselves and representative of the Author and time in which they were written.  They are not simply just "Divine Exposition from the God Creators of the Dragon Age Franchise", that's why they are so much fun to read.  They are as much a part of Thedas as content they contain, which means they are subject to change or even straight up being wrong depending on the author's viewpoint or interpretation.  This idea is just awesome for world building! 
 
This is why there can be two different versions of the Andrastian faith, which allow for two different Devines to exist simultaneously.  It's a matter of perspective and I cannot wait to get my hands on some of the Tevinter Codex's (written by Tevinter authors of course) revolving their version of the religion itself, because it is assuredly going to have some significant differences.  I take most of codex's in the game with a grain of salt because I adore the idea of finding out the truth if it exists, or reaffirming that what we already know is in fact correct.  To take the Codex's at face value AS intrinsically correct just seems wasteful in such a rich setting, that if nothing else seems to realize that history is all too often defined not by factual truth, but by the perspectives and intents of those who write it.

There isn't a single codex in game that was actually written by an NPC. They were all written by writers on the dev team. As such, they are a far more reliable source of information than "but my theory".

[CardButton]

There isn't a single codex in game that was actually written by an NPC. They were all written by writers on the dev team. As such, they are a far more reliable source of information than "but my theory".

Of course not, the Game Developers and Writers wrote everything in this game, but they also wrote the codex entries in such a way that it makes it feel like many of them have been written by NPC's.  

 

They are not just some FLOATING BLOCKS OF EXPOSITION for the sake of informing the player.  They serve that function, but they are also actual books and literature that can be found in the game world and can be presumably be read by the people of that world. This IMO one of this is one of the greatest strengths of the DA writing staff, because by formatting the Codex Entries in this way we the player only get interpretations of the lore (which may contain some truths), but may be false in some regards as well.

 

The players have primarily been exposed to the history of the DA World as it has been interpreted by Southern Thedas (and most of that is from a Human Andrastian perspective).  Bet you if we were to get codex's on some of the same subjects, but from a Qunari or Tevinter perspective, they would contain quite a bit of variation (and quite a few similarities) from what we've learned in the South.  

[Medhia_Nox]

@CardButton:  Not entirely true.  We were exposed to Dalish lies through three games until Solas basically said:  Yeah, they're wrong... like, not a little wrong... like REALLY wrong. 

 

DA4 will be Tevinter crushing Solas completely... you heard it here first folks.  I would even die laughing if it's Tevinter and the Qunari teeming up to fight a foe they both hate... the elves.  OMG... the laughter pains in my stomach would stop me from playing. 

 

But yes, Tevinter will answer a lot of questions... propose more questions... and crush Solas and the elven problem for good.  

[CardButton]

@CardButton:  Not entirely true.  We were exposed to Dalish lies through three games until Solas basically said:  Yeah, they're wrong... like, not a little wrong... like REALLY wrong. 

 

DA4 will be Tevinter crushing Solas completely... you heard it here first folks.  I would even die laughing if it's Tevinter and the Qunari teeming up to fight a foe they both hate... the elves.  OMG... the laughter pains in my stomach would stop me from playing. 

 

But yes, Tevinter will answer a lot of questions... propose more questions... and crush Solas and the elven problem for good.  

Right!   But those legends were grounded in some form of historical fact (their "Gods" literally existed, they just weren't actually gods).

 

In regards to the Maker himself existing I'm a bit on the fence to whether that will ever that will ever be addressed (I would be fine it wasn't), but if what Solas said about the Veil was true then there is a very real chance that Black City could be next to get slammed by one of these Lore Truth Bombs.    I cannot wait for the lore we will get when we get to Tevinter!

[Medhia_Nox]

My belief is that the Black City is not Arlathan... it is Thedas.  

 

It is the sentient, lyrium heart of Thedas.  

 

We know the elves killed Titans and mined them for lyrium... we also know they collapsed the tunnels in fear of what they unleashed.

 

Let's discuss:  The Evanuris... the worst possible beings on Thedas... were afraid of what they found.

 

Now... Red Lyrium.  We know lyrium seems to grow from the Titans.... presumably... red lyrium would be growing from a corrupted Titan.

 

Or... lyrium grows from Thedas itself, the Titans are an extension of Thedas... Thedas got pissed at the elves... Thedas is the Maker... and punished the crap out of the Evanuris by unleashing the Darkspawn.  

 

The Golden City is the Fade representation of Thedas - now the Black City when the elves corrupted it... the Darkspawn were locked away when Solas put up the Veil... and let out when the Magisters broke into it again.

 

Forget Tevinter... I want into the Kal Sharok Shaperate! 

[Iakus]

My belief is that the Black City is not Arlathan... it is Thedas.  

 

It is the sentient, lyrium heart of Thedas.  

 

We know the elves killed Titans and mined them for lyrium... we also know they collapsed the tunnels in fear of what they unleashed.

 

Let's discuss:  The Evanuris... the worst possible beings on Thedas... were afraid of what they found.

 

Are you suggesting...the elves dug too deep?  

 

 

 

Now... Red Lyrium.  We know lyrium seems to grow from the Titans.... presumably... red lyrium would be growing from a corrupted Titan.

Or... lyrium grows from Thedas itself, the Titans are an extension of Thedas... Thedas got pissed at the elves... Thedas is the Maker... and punished the crap out of the Evanuris by unleashing the Darkspawn. 

The Golden City is the Fade representation of Thedas - now the Black City when the elves corrupted it... the Darkspawn were locked away when Solas put up the Veil... and let out when the Magisters broke into it again.

Forget Tevinter... I want into the Kal Sharok Shaperate!

The Orzammar Shaperate pretty blatantly rewrites history.  No reason to think Kal-Sharok is any different.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Iakus: I am convinced the elves created the Darkspawn.  Or rather... forced the Titans to create the Darkspawn in self-defense/vengeance. 

 

I also think the Evanuris destroyed the Deep Roads - the dwarves have a story where the elves throw the sun down on top of them and create a great disaster.  Elgar'nin I believe did this.  And codex entries suggest that the elves forced the dwarves underground in the first place and that they collapsed the caves while mining the titans.

 

Kal Sharok is notoriously secretive... I think "they know" and that's why they hate everyone else.  I wouldn't doubt it if they're serving the Titans.

 

I would LOVE to see the dwarves rise from Kal Sharok to throw down Solas for what the Evanuris did.

 

EDIT:  Mythals (Flemeth) says:  "What the world did to me." she also says "That's between me, and the world.
when she complains about being slighted.  I wonder if the Darkspawn... created in defense against the Evanuris greed... killed her. 

 

If Flemeth WASN'T being obtuse... but literally meant what Thedas did to her... I'd be impressed (instead of the more likely "the world" being people)

 

That would mesh with Solas saying that the Evanuris killed her - if, by their mining - they were the cause of the Blight.

 

The codex tells us that Elgar'nan stopped because Mythal intervened with his actions with the "sun".

 

Also - Andruil hunting in "The Void" and wearing "Void Armor" and a sickness growing in the land.... seems pretty clearly Blight to me.  

[Hellion Rex]

 

I also think the Evanuris destroyed the Deep Roads - the dwarves have a story where the elves throw the sun down on top of them and create a great disaster.  Elgar'nin I believe did this.  And codex entries suggest that the elves forced the dwarves underground in the first place and that they collapsed the caves while mining the titans.

 

 

Also you have elven stories corroborating the "throwing down of the sun":

 

War? I don't remember any legends about our people fighting the dwarves. Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire. A metaphor for the elves of Arlathan driving the dwarves underground? The Qunari like metaphors. I should share that.

http://dragonage.wik...oads,_Section_2

 

 

I am empty, filled with nothing(?),
Mythal gives you dreams.
It fills you, within you(?),
Making our leaders proud.
My little stones,
Never yours the sun.
Forever, forever.

http://dragonage.wik...oads,_Section_3

[Heimdall]

I also think the Evanuris destroyed the Deep Roads - the dwarves have a story where the elves throw the sun down on top of them and create a great disaster.  Elgar'nin I believe did this.  And codex entries suggest that the elves forced the dwarves underground in the first place and that they collapsed the caves while mining the titans.

Never heard that one, source?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Heimdall:  Helion Rex provided the links above.

 

However - the Deep Roads connection is mine.  Perhaps the Evanuris enslaved the dwarves and forced them to build the Deep Roads and mine the Titans since they can touch lyrium.

 

But that Elgar'nan destroyed the mines leading to the Titans is part of the elven codex entry.

 

The elves enslaving the dwarves isn't shocking... we know they hunted humans.  "When Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts."  It seems clear that they were far worse than Tevinter has ever been.

 

Addition:  Now I wonder if the tattoos of the Casteless are dwarven vallaslin.

[robertthebard]

Of course not, the Game Developers and Writers wrote everything in this game, but they also wrote the codex entries in such a way that it makes it feel like many of them have been written by NPC's.  
 
They are not just some FLOATING BLOCKS OF EXPOSITION for the sake of informing the player.  They serve that function, but they are also actual books and literature that can be found in the game world and can be presumably be read by the people of that world. This IMO one of this is one of the greatest strengths of the DA writing staff, because by formatting the Codex Entries in this way we the player only get interpretations of the lore (which may contain some truths), but may be false in some regards as well.
 
The players have primarily been exposed to the history of the DA World as it has been interpreted by Southern Thedas (and most of that is from a Human Andrastian perspective).  Bet you if we were to get codex's on some of the same subjects, but from a Qunari or Tevinter perspective, they would contain quite a bit of variation (and quite a few similarities) from what we've learned in the South.  

Actually, that's exactly what they are. They exist to provide the player with information that the PC would presumably already have. W/out these expositions, a lot of stuff going on would make absolutely no sense to the player. Look at the bright side, some of it has proven false, like the codex on the Dalish tattoos. However, until the lore proves them false, they certainly can't be disregarded in the name of someone outside of the writing staff's pet theory. When the writers expose something as false, it's one thing, to disregard it because it doesn't fit your theory is something else entirely.

[Heimdall]

@Heimdall:  Helion Rex provided the links above.

 

However - the Deep Roads connection is mine.  Perhaps the Evanuris enslaved the dwarves and forced them to build the Deep Roads and mine the Titans since they can touch lyrium.

 

But that Elgar'nan destroyed the mines leading to the Titans is part of the elven codex entry.

 

The elves enslaving the dwarves isn't shocking... we know they hunted humans.  "When Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts."  It seems clear that they were far worse than Tevinter has ever been.

Those links reference the elven story, no mention of a dwarven story about throwing down the sun.

 

Though the elven legend actually says that Elgarnan buried the sun in the Earth as punishment.  My theory is that this refers to the entombment of the Old Gods.