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[Medhia_Nox]

You're right... I've been reading a lot of codex entries..  let me find the ones that talk about a possible war between the dwarves and elves... the dwarves fearing the sun because of Elgar'nan's actions.  Etc.

[Medhia_Nox]

From Shaper Valta:  "I close my eyes and see glimpses of the world as it was, befpre everything changed and the dwarven race broke in two.  Something caused the Titans to fall, and my people fell with them."

 

We know the elves killed Titans.

 

Could Sandal be speaking of the dwarves when he says:  "...everyone will be just like they were."  Valta's "display" suggests... maybe? 

 

His first link does talk about a possible war between the elves and dwarves and a Dalish legend about why the dwarves fear the sun. 

 

"War? I don't remember any legends about our people fighting the dwarves. Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire."

 

I added to a previous post that I also think that casteless markings seen in this light of dwarven slaves mining lyrium... could be dwarven vallaslin.

[Heimdall]

From Shaper Valta:  "I close my eyes and see glimpses of the world as it was, befpre everything changed and the dwarven race broke in two.  Something caused the Titans to fall, and my people fell with them."
 
We know the elves killed Titans.
 
Could Sandal be speaking of the dwarves when he says:  "...everyone will be just like they were."  Valta's "display" suggests... maybe? 
 
His first link does talk about a possible war between the elves and dwarves and a Dalish legend about why the dwarves fear the sun. 
 
"War? I don't remember any legends about our people fighting the dwarves. Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire."
 
I added to a previous post that I also think that casteless markings seen in this light of dwarven slaves mining lyrium... could be dwarven vallaslin.

My theory is that the sun in these stories actually refers to an even older war between the elves and the dragons.  There's a codex entry in the hissing wastes that suggests this dwarven dread of the sun might actually refer to dragons:

I was tracing heraldry etched on a wall when I noticed pictures of weapons with winged lizards worked into the decoration. I spent the rest of the day translating the inscriptions. This verse was apparently passed down through Fairel's house, through his father to his father's father and so on for hundred of generations:

"From the Stone, have no fear of anything, 
but the stone-less sky betrays with wings of flame. 
If the surface must be breached, if there is no other 
way, 
bring weapons against the urtok, and heed their 
screams."

"Urtok" means "dragon." Why was it part of an ancient crest? Why were these dwarves so worried about a monster they'd never see that they worked it into their weapons?
This place becomes more impossible each day.

So I posit this: There was a time before the elves when Dragons dominated the surface and posed a great danger to any attempt to reach the surface, so the Titans impressed upon them a dread of these powerful creatures.

 

The story of Elgar'nan and the sun refers to a time when the elves fought dragons for dominance over the world and succeeded, trapping the greatest of them in underground prisons.  Mythal persuaded the others to let the lesser dragons free (Explaining her association with dragons) just as she persuaded Elgar'nan to let the sun free in the myth.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Heimdall:   For me, that still works.  Whether it's a super-weapon or dragons isn't something that I'm concerned much about.

 

I think it's more to the point that the elves dominated ancient Thedas defeating all others - be they Titans or Dragons (dragons must have been something far different than the beasts we have today).

 

The dwarves and humans weren't even on their roster.

 

I think they enslaved the dwarves.  Why use elves to mine lyrium?  We have no reason to believe that ancient lyrium somehow worked differently and elves - especially if all elves had magic (I don't believe they did though) - so elves wouldn't be able to mine it. 

 

I think it's possible that the Deep Roads are elven in technology, but more likely the elven mines simply laid the foundation for the Deep Roads... though actually made by the dwarves (reflecting a distinct architecture). 

 

Then... Arlathan falls... human tribes, no longer hunted, start migrating into Thedas... while the dwarves, now liberated, begin the construction of their Thaigs. 

 

I truly don't think Arlathan is the Black City... the date of the Tevinter Empire finally threatening what remained of the elves leaves thousands of years - and I believe that Andruil is hunting Darkspawn when she's hunting the Forgotten Ones.  They are called "wicked things that thrive in the abyss". 

 

This is a passage from the Chant. 

 

Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls.
From these emerald waters doth life begin anew.
Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you.
In my arms lies Eternity.

 

And here's what it describes.

 

This fragment is where Andraste goes to speak to the Maker for the first time and convinces him to forgive mankind. It describes a beautiful temple deep under the earth surrounded by emerald waters.

 

The wikia suggest it's the Fade... I'm not sure.  I think it's a Titan... and that either Thedas, or a Titan, is "The Maker" (if it's a Titan, Thedas would be the "Seat of the Maker" perhaps). 

 

We're also told that Elgar'nin tossed the "sun" into the abyss... come to think of it... the Thedosian sun is Golden... and we're told he cast it into the abyss where all became darkness... or.. heck, "Black".  And we know the dragons aren't free - at least the Old God dragons. 

 

I tend toward the "Sun" being a great weapon of fire... perhaps what was used to kill Titans (cause honestly, how do you kill Titans?) - this is when perhaps a single Titan becomes corrupted and begins to create Darkspawn (mirrors of the original dwarves who hear songs and are a hive mind)

The Old Gods are just agents of this corrupted Titan... the darkspawn find them, corrupt them with the taint (not unlike Corypheus' red lyrium dragon) - and then they're an Avatar of the corrupted Titan (with it's song driving the hive mind above the surface).

 

Anyway... a lot of random ideas, but I actually think they're cohesive and not directly challenged by lore (though not necessarily correct).

[CardButton]

@ Heimdall

 

If it's not too much trouble can you post those codex entries (if there are links to them on the Wiki or something)?  I somehow missed those legends (especially the one regarding the Elves and the Dragons) and I would love to read them! 

 

@ Nox

 

I found the codex you were referring to (it's found in the Shattered Library, but like all things Ancient Elvhen it's insufferably vague), but yes it does seem to imply that the Elves were mining Titans during a period where those Titans were assuredly far more active than they are now ... and then the Elves did something else (Though again Mythal seems to be the exception to the "rule" when it comes to Evenuris).  

 

http://dragonage.wik..._the_Deep_Roads

 

Though after reading through it ... did the Ancient Elves release (or create) the blight?  If they did it by somehow corrupting a Titan, then that would explain a lot about the Red Lyrium and would mean that the substance might actually pre-date the darkspawn themselves.  It would also explain a lot about why the Song of the Stone and the Blighted Calling seem so damned similar.  Though it doesn't really mention the dwarves in that codex so it is hard to tell if there was an actual "war" between the two groups, or if the Elves were just closing the Deep Roads to prevent whatever they released/created from getting out.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Cardbutton:  Oh, I don't think it was a "war" at all.  The elves were killing dragons and Titans... I think they simply enslaved the dwarves, pushed them into the mines, then collapsed those mines when they realized the darkspawn had been created.  We know they hunted humans for sport... the Andruil codex says as much.

 

But, if anything I'm saying is true... I still want to know why the Magisters were trying to get into a "Black City".  

 

Though... this train of thought ALSO gives credence to the possibility that the Old Gods were already cast into the earth by the Evanuris (I imagine these had to be the "dragons" they were battling)... and were calling to Tevinter to release the Blight.  

 

So... maybe they couldn't see the city... or, if they saw a Black City in the Fade... maybe they were just deceived by Dumat and the gang.  Remember, we're told you see what you want to see in the Fade... so, maybe they say it Golden because they envisioned it as the embodiment of all their hubris.  

 

I'm not sure if I'm right... but I think this is how I "would" tie the mythology together if I were writing it.  

[Heimdall]

@ Heimdall
 
If it's not too much trouble can you post those codex entries (if there are links to them on the Wiki or something)?  I somehow missed those legends (especially the one regarding the Elves and the Dragons) and I would love to read them! 

Oh, the war is just my theory. You can look up the codex entry for Elgar'nan to see the legend I'm interpreting. In the legend, the sun is an adversary, a precursor that burns the earth to spite Elgar'nan. Elgar'nan then defeats it and buries it beneath the earth until Mythal convinces him to release the sun. That this is the creation myth for the Dalish speaks to the idea that this might have been the ancient elves becoming the masters of their era by throwing down the apex predator.

I'm convinced the Dragons and the Old Gods especially were much more than beasts unto themselves, not because of the Titans or the Evanuris. They're still bestial and savage mind you, but not unintelligent.

[CardButton]

@Cardbutton:  Oh, I don't think it was a "war" at all.  The elves were killing dragons and Titans... I think they simply enslaved the dwarves, pushed them into the mines, then collapsed those mines when they realized the darkspawn had been created.  We know they hunted humans for sport... the Andruil codex says as much.

 

But, if anything I'm saying is true... I still want to know why the Magisters were trying to get into a "Black City".  

 

Though... this train of thought ALSO gives credence to the possibility that the Old Gods were already cast into the earth by the Evanuris (I imagine these had to be the "dragons" they were battling)... and were calling to Tevinter to release the Blight.  

 

So... maybe they couldn't see the city... or, if they saw a Black City in the Fade... maybe they were just deceived by Dumat and the gang.  Remember, we're told you see what you want to see in the Fade... so, maybe they say it Golden because they envisioned it as the embodiment of all their hubris.  

 

I'm not sure if I'm right... but I think this is how I "would" tie the mythology together if I were writing it.  

BTW I like alot of this tying together mythologies stuff, its awesome!

 

As for the city maybe it was Golden ... but then it stopped being so just as the legend says.  The idea that it was Golden bothers me in terms of the Fade not because of that fact that it couldn't be "Golden" in color, but by its positioning in the Fade.  We always (no matter our location in the fade) see the Black City with the primary light source behind it.  It looks black, but I have no idea if that is the coloration or just the shadow.  The physical color of the city wouldn't matter much if all we ever see is the Shadow'd side of the city ... unless it was glowing gold and producing its own light source.  

 

Do you remember the exterior door on the Temple of Mythal?  The one you used to lock Cory out.  This thing not only seemed to be magically sealed, but also glowed with Golden light that emanated from the doors center.  Could it be possible that this was the Golden Light or the Golden City that is in the chant?

 

Just a weird thought I had. 

[In Exile]

From Shaper Valta: "I close my eyes and see glimpses of the world as it was, befpre everything changed and the dwarven race broke in two. Something caused the Titans to fall, and my people fell with them."

We know the elves killed Titans.

Could Sandal be speaking of the dwarves when he says: "...everyone will be just like they were." Valta's "display" suggests... maybe?

His first link does talk about a possible war between the elves and dwarves and a Dalish legend about why the dwarves fear the sun.

"War? I don't remember any legends about our people fighting the dwarves. Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire."

I added to a previous post that I also think that casteless markings seen in this light of dwarven slaves mining lyrium... could be dwarven vallaslin.

There's one other time we hear about a fall and people breaking in two: the Library in Trespasser, about what happened when Solas created the Veil.

It may well be that what broke the dwarves in two was not different from what happened when Solas created the Veil.

[Madfox11]

Before we blame everything on the elves, we might need to think a bit about the qunari and humans: What are they? Were did they come from? What was their position in the world during the height of Arlathan? Considering humans and elves can reproduce they seem to be the same species, or at least a closely related one. Even their relation with magic seems to be more or less the same when comparing the Keepers with the human mages. Dwarves have no mages and it is mentioned that magic for qunari seem to work differently (even if the qunari mage is not different at all). For all we know humans are the descendants of the earliest banished elves or their lowest ranking members - the ones with no magic. In short, blaming the elves is the same as blaming humans

[Medhia_Nox]

@In Exile:  I wonder if... given their connection with the Titans and the lyrium... it's the dwarves who were connected to the Fade most of all and what Solas did crippled them.  

 

I think that would be a great little twist... given the trope of dwarves being so magic resistant and generally anti-magic. 

 

-----------

 

"so I flee to the Qun. Now the Qunari bring me down into the lightless depths, and for what? Because the nursery rhymes I remember from childhood make me an expert on ancient elves."  -Descent Codex

 

So, the Qun has been prepping for this battle for some time it seems.  

 

I think this points to the truth that Tevinter and the Qun will be a united front against Solas.

 

I think the Saarebas are being made weapons of extreme mass destruction (with all the lyrium mining) for the purpose of this fight (yes, and of course to crush Tevinter eventually) 

 

-----------

 

"Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air." - codex entry from Trespasser.  

 

Could this suggest that the elves originally WERE spirits?  We know the Forbidden Ones can take human shape... we know Cole can take human shape.  Cole states very clearly:  "I AM a human." 

 

NOTE:  Is THIS why Solas doesn't want Cole to become human?  

 

--------

 

"In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing." - Codex in Arbor Wilds

 

More proof that the dwarves were slaughtered by the elves. 

 

NOTE:  Sandal APPEARS "witless" "soulless"  - I think it's pretty obvious that Sandal is attached to a Titan.  He was found in the Deep Roads... and we've seen him use "some" form of "not enchantment" on a darkspawn ogre.  

 

NOTE 2:  We've had indications previously that the dwarves were a hive mind.  I think Sandal appears as he does because he's not connected to other dwarves in this fashion.  

 

NOTE 3:  Why is Shape Valta "fine"?  A new type of connection?  

 

NOTE 4: Exciting times for the dwarves are coming... I'm sure of it, and am very happy about it.

 

--------

 

Momentary digression: PLEASE Bioware... please make what happened to Shaper Valta bring dwarven mages... 

 

-----

 

EDIT:  Madfox11:  Nope, sorry... it was the elves fault, I'm convinced of it.

 

We know that Andruil grew:  "Tired of hunting men and beasts" from her codex.  We know that mankind and elves mingled together... that was the Dalish "quickening" lie.  

 

Men and elves are not related.

 

My thought?  Dwarves, men, qunari... are all naturally evolved (well, maybe not naturally... the Titans might have created the dwarves) - but the elves are spirits who became flesh and invaded Thedas.

 

EDIT 2:  The modern elves should be damn glad Solas doesn't consider them "his people" - because the elves that Solas comes from were vile.

[In Exile]

@In Exile: I wonder if... given their connection with the Titans and the lyrium... it's the dwarves who were connected to the Fade most of all and what Solas did crippled them.

I think that would be a great little twist... given the trope of dwarves being so magic resistant and generally anti-magic.

-----------

"so I flee to the Qun. Now the Qunari bring me down into the lightless depths, and for what? Because the nursery rhymes I remember from childhood make me an expert on ancient elves." -Descent Codex

So, the Qun has been prepping for this battle for some time it seems.

I think this points to the truth that Tevinter and the Qun will be a united front against Solas.

I think the Saarebas are being made weapons of extreme mass destruction (with all the lyrium mining) for the purpose of this fight (yes, and of course to crush Tevinter eventually)

-----------

"Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air." - codex entry from Trespasser.

Could this suggest that the elves originally WERE spirits? We know the Forbidden Ones can take human shape... we know Cole can take human shape. Cole states very clearly: "I AM a human."

NOTE: Is THIS why Solas doesn't want Cole to become human?

--------

"In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing." - Codex in Arbor Wilds

More proof that the dwarves were slaughtered by the elves.

NOTE: Sandal APPEARS "witless" "soulless" - I think it's pretty obvious that Sandal is attached to a Titan. He was found in the Deep Roads... and we've seen him use "some" form of "not enchantment" on a darkspawn ogre.

NOTE 2: We've had indications previously that the dwarves were a hive mind. I think Sandal appears as he does because he's not connected to other dwarves in this fashion.

NOTE 3: Why is Shape Valta "fine"? A new type of connection?

NOTE 4: Exciting times for the dwarves are coming... I'm sure of it, and am very happy about it.

--------

Momentary digression: PLEASE Bioware... please make what happened to Shaper Valta bring dwarven mages...

-----

EDIT: Madfox11: Nope, sorry... it was the elves fault, I'm convinced of it.

We know that Andruil grew: "Tired of hunting men and beasts" from her codex. We know that mankind and elves mingled together... that was the Dalish "quickening" lie.

Men and elves are not related.

My thought? Dwarves, men, qunari... are all naturally evolved (well, maybe not naturally... the Titans might have created the dwarves) - but the elves are spirits who became flesh and invaded Thedas.

EDIT 2: The modern elves should be damn glad Solas doesn't consider them "his people" - because the elves that Solas comes from were vile.

I believe Solas called dwarves the broken arm of a once mighty hero. Given how we see the Shar-brytol as a kind of hive mind immune system, and given how the only other "living" things we've seen tied to 1) lyrium and 2) having a hive mind are darkspawn, one night wonder if dwarves are to blue lyrium and regular Titans (originally, before say Mythal messed with then) what the darkspawn are to red lyrium and the blight.

[Medhia_Nox]

@In Exile:  YES!  Exactly my train of thought.

 

However - now I think something might be different.  Shaper Valta IS connected to the Titan... but she hasn't been lobotomized... so, what is "new"?  

 

Or - what are we missing.

[Ashagar]

Before we blame everything on the elves, we might need to think a bit about the qunari and humans: What are they? Were did they come from? What was their position in the world during the height of Arlathan? Considering humans and elves can reproduce they seem to be the same species, or at least a closely related one. Even their relation with magic seems to be more or less the same when comparing the Keepers with the human mages. Dwarves have no mages and it is mentioned that magic for qunari seem to work differently (even if the qunari mage is not different at all). For all we know humans are the descendants of the earliest banished elves or their lowest ranking members - the ones with no magic. In short, blaming the elves is the same as blaming humans

 

We know like the Qunari the humans orginally came from beyond the continent of Thedas and that they migrated in at two major tribal groups, the Neromenians who came from the north whose northern tribes brought maker belief to thadas and the Alamarri came from the distant west though nothing is known about the orginal homelands of either tribal groups. There may also be mentions in a codex of one of the more ax-crazy elven god kings hunting what might be human tribes for sport.

[In Exile]

@In Exile:  YES!  Exactly my train of thought.

 

However - now I think something might be different.  Shaper Valta IS connected to the Titan... but she hasn't been lobotomized... so, what is "new"?  

 

Or - what are we missing.

 

But the darkspawn aren't exactly, either. We have the DA:I codex entry about the hurlock who ... sort of speaks, and we know from DA:O Emissaries sort of did too. And whatever the Architect does, it "frees" the darkspawn from the influence of the song (the Mother says she can't hear it anymore). 

 

She's different, and not necessarily in a good way. We also see that the Shar-Brytol have culture (and so did the darkspawn - they have idols, etc.).