314 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

What Trespasser strongly suggests - along with DA:I itself - is that the elves society, and their cities, weren't all based on what we think of as "Thedas", i.e., the actual continent. The elvhen had tons of pocket dimensions. While Solas might have created the Veil, we aren't told he created an actual physical "space" to stuff the Fade part of the world. Smart money is on Solas just using a space that already existed to stuff in the "Fade", which seems to really be a by-product of whatever he planned to do to "trap" the Evanuris.

So... maybe the Void is another one of those dimensions? Though, if it is, I doubt the elves created it, since it seems like they only discovered it.

[Heimdall]

That's still in the fade. Remember this was build at the time the waking world and the fade were one and the same. Like Hydrogen and oxygen is with water. Not 2 different place but one in the same.

 

It make 100% sense they can build things in the fade if the fade is part of the world like air is ours.

They weren't one in the same.  They existed as two discreet dimensions, their borders were just much more permeable for spirits and dreaming elves.  The Veil only drastically reinforced that barrier.  Even the ancient elven codex speak of a waking world and a dreaming one.

 

And the pocket dimension thing is explained in Masked Empire as being connected to but separate from the Fade, by an ancient elf.  It isn't the Fade.  That it can be severed from it, and crumble because of that separation, should be enough proof.  If it was the Fade, it would have all the magic it needs, because the Fade is the source of its magic.

 

The question is "did they?"  We have no evidence of that.

[Ashagar]

I think the Black City is only equidistant if you're dreaming, and you could in theory, approach it if you're there physically. Solas comments on how close the Black City is when you are in the fade, and you are the first people to go there physically since Corypheus and friends. And those two groups may be the only people to have done so since the veil was created. Plus, it kind of makes sense that you could approach it if you're physically in the fade, otherwise it would be very unlikely the Sidereal Magisters could have gotten to it in the first place.

 

Well, it obviously does, since it's where the Evanuris are sealed.

 

There is no evidence of any connection between the golden city/the black city and the Evanuris that I am aware of. The only evidence we really have on it is that it was golden before the first blight, that there is a empty seat there and you can see it everywhere in the fade. Other than that we have knowledge that the ancient Neromenian tribes and the later Tevinter Imperium thought it was the seat of their creator deity later known to Andrestians as the Maker and that Solas denies any connection of the ancient elves to it.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Ok but where did the fade itself come from? HMM?
Time for the real questions.

[TraiHarder]

That sounds something that would be a retcon to me.

 

I don't think the Black City has anything to do with the elves.

 

It has to. Seeing as Solas gave the orb to Cory to open a way to the City. I believe the City is the "heaven" Solas locked the Elves in
 this would explain why the City was already tainted as Cory said when he emerged in legacy

[BansheeOwnage]

They weren't one in the same.  They existed as two discreet dimensions, their borders were just much more permeable for spirits and dreaming elves.  The Veil only drastically reinforced that barrier.  Even the ancient elven codex speak of a waking world and a dreaming one.

Are you sure? My impression was that the aspects of the fade and waking world were combined before the veil. That there was no veil-that's-like-Solas'-veil-only-it-sucks. Just no barrier at all.

[In Exile]

They weren't one in the same.  They existed as two discreet dimensions, their borders were just much more permeable for spirits and dreaming elves.  The Veil only drastically reinforced that barrier.  Even the ancient elven codex speak of a waking world and a dreaming one.

 

And the pocket dimension thing is explained in Masked Empire as being connected to but separate from the Fade, by an ancient elf.  It isn't the Fade.  That it can be severed from it, and crumble because of that separation, should be enough proof.  If it was the Fade, it would have all the magic it needs, because the Fade is the source of its magic.

 

The question is "did they?"  We have no evidence of that.

 

That's not right. Everything we read about the old world suggests that thinking about the Fade as a "dimension" is wrong, because it suggests a separate. The "Fade" was part of the world. It was just a different aspect of it. Dreams are a good IRL analogy, because no one thinks when we dream we literally inhabit a separate reality. 

 

The pocket dimension stuff is totally separate, and those are "dimensions" in the sci-fi sense. 

[In Exile]

So... maybe the Void is another one of those dimensions? Though, if it is, I doubt the elves created it, since it seems like they only discovered it.

 

I think everything we've read about the Void is too speculative to come up with any concrete theory. It just comes up in a few religious parables about the Evanuris; it's too hard to say if it's a metaphor, an actual place, an elven creation, another word for a part of the "Fade" in the old world, etc. 

[TraiHarder]

Ok but where did the fade itself come from? HMM?
Time for the real questions.

 

A collection of elf, dwarf, an magister farts I thought everyone found that codex.

[In Exile]

Ok but where did the fade itself come from? HMM?
Time for the real questions.

 

From what Solas tells us, it was a natural part of the world. Asking where it comes from is a bit like asking what created Thedas. 

[BansheeOwnage]

There is no evidence of any connection between the golden city/the black city and the Evanuris that I am aware of. The only evidence we really have on it is that it was golden before the first blight, that there is a empty seat there and you can see it everywhere in the fade. Other than that we have knowledge that the ancient Neromenian tribes and the later Tevinter Imperium thought it was the seat of their creator deity later known to Andrestians as the Maker and that Solas denies any connection of the ancient elves to it.

The city itself needn't be elvhen, I suppose, but it's almost certainly where the Evanuris are. WoT V2 states that the modern elves believe that is where they are, which isn't proof of course, but usually they at least get the big stuff right. And I see no reason why that would be false (and in a meta sense, the fact that they just added it to their lore indicates it's probably true).

 

Also, Solas locked the Forgotten Ones away in the Void, and the Evanuris in the Beyond. So it's not unlikely that they are in the one place in the Beyond that is extremely hard to get to, and is a place one could be locked in in the first place - a city.

[leaguer of one]

They weren't one in the same.  They existed as two discreet dimensions, their borders were just much more permeable for spirits and dreaming elves.  The Veil only drastically reinforced that barrier.  Even the ancient elven codex speak of a waking world and a dreaming one.

 

And the pocket dimension thing is explained in Masked Empire as being connected to but separate from the Fade, by an ancient elf.  It isn't the Fade.  That it can be severed from it, and crumble because of that separation, should be enough proof.  If it was the Fade, it would have all the magic it needs, because the Fade is the source of its magic.

 

The question is "did they?"  We have no evidence of that.

Ummm....Yes they were one and the same.. The entire dlc about the ancient elves state this. The fade and the waking world use to be one. The veil divided them. There was no border  till the veil was put up.

 

What the mask empire says still means it in the fade. It a pocket in the fade. That still means it in the fade.

[leaguer of one]

It has to. Seeing as Solas gave the orb to Cory to open a way to the City. I believe the City is the "heaven" Solas locked the Elves in
 this would explain why the City was already tainted as Cory said when he emerged in legacy

How would that be a retcon?

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

From what Solas tells us, it was a natural part of the world. Asking where it comes from is a bit like asking what created Thedas. 

OK sure that's the next logical step, no? We gonna be all TERA and the titans are dreaming our existence or are the titans literally our existence? Can I then posit that the fade is not only our dream land but the titans dream land?

[leaguer of one]

That's not right. Everything we read about the old world suggests that thinking about the Fade as a "dimension" is wrong, because it suggests a separate. The "Fade" was part of the world. It was just a different aspect of it. Dreams are a good IRL analogy, because no one thinks when we dream we literally inhabit a separate reality. 

 

The pocket dimension stuff is totally separate, and those are "dimensions" in the sci-fi sense. 

Yes, it's basically saying if you in a sub in the ocean then you not in the ocean based on that logic.

[leaguer of one]

OK sure that's the next logical step, no? We gonna be all TERA and the titans are dreaming our existence or are the titans literally our existence? Can I then posit that the fade is not only our dream land but the titans dream land?

No because it's clear that the titan are a produce of the waking world and fade like everything else in thedas.

[Heimdall]

The elves build pocket dimensions. The "Fade" wasn't a place - Solas makes that clear in Haven, when you first speak with him. The implication is that Solas stuffed what the Fade "was" into a pocket dimension, and otherwise wrecked everything that depended on the "Fade" being the way it originally "was". What Solas likely did is take the thing that is the "Fade" - that things are connected to - and stuffed it all in one place. That's the "splitting in two" that we learn about in the library. 

its clear from codex entries that there was a distinction between the Fade and the physical world before the Fade, even if the borders were open, but I don't think that means we're actually touching real physical stone in the Fade at Adamant.  

 

Hear me out here.  I think everything we see there is the result of spirit fabrication.  They have to be able to make physical objects, otherwise those Avvar statues from the First Blight couldn't have gotten there.  There's even a codex talking about why there are floating rocks in the Fade, its because the dreamers don't focus on the ground and the spirits don't get connections between ideas..  The codex speculates that if dwarves could dream, then the stones wouldn't float, because dwarves are so attuned with the ground.  So everything in this place is runs on the rules of spirit perceptions.  So why couldn't the very ground we're standing on also be some spirit's craft?  So is the reason the Fade seems different at Adamant because its physical or because we're not looking through the eyes of a dreamer?

 

I'm suggesting that we didn't enter a physical place in the Fade, we entered a non-physical space with physical bodies.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

No because it's clear that the titan are a produce of the waking world and fade like everything else in thedas.

Well then who made the titans?

[In Exile]

OK sure that's the next logical step, no? We gonna be all TERA and the titans are dreaming our existence or are the titans literally our existence? Can I then posit that the fade is not only our dream land but the titans dream land?

 

We don't know enough about the Titans to start theory crafting. Other than the fact that getting blasting by some lyrium laser drove our dwarf guide a bit mad (and she acted as if the titan was an actual will she could interact with), we don't know anything about them. Well, there's the evidence Mythal killed one. But that doesn't tell us much of anything. 

[Heimdall]

Ummm....Yes they were one and the same.. The entire dlc about the ancient elves state this. The fade and the waking world use to be one. The veil divided them. There was no border  till the veil was put up.

 

What the mask empire says still means it in the fade. It a pocket in the fade. That still means it in the fade.

They used to not have a wall between them.  That's not the same thing.

 

You're very selective about how you pay attention to the DLC, you know that?  You've yet to explain how this makes any sense if severing them from the Fade destroyed these places.

[Mlady]

The only 2 things that make it possibly connect is Cole's comment about the Black City in the Fade and a codex entry in the Shattered Library.

 

Cole's comment:

 

"They still remember when they were higher, before it woke up and everything fell"

 

The codex entry:

 

http://dragonage.wik...ara:_Homecoming

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

We don't know enough about the Titans to start theory crafting. Other than the fact that getting blasting by some lyrium laser drove our dwarf guide a bit mad (and she acted as if the titan was an actual will she could interact with), we don't know anything about them. Well, there's the evidence Mythal killed one. But that doesn't tell us much of anything. 

Wait really? Where?
And does that mean that the titan is a will or a physical body? Would that make the forstbacks like a really bad rash or something?

[TraiHarder]

The city itself needn't be elvhen, I suppose, but it's almost certainly where the Evanuris are. WoT V2 states that the modern elves believe that is where they are, which isn't proof of course, but usually they at least get the big stuff right. And I see no reason why that would be false (and in a meta sense, the fact that they just added it to their lore indicates it's probably true).

 

Also, Solas locked the Forgotten Ones away in the Void, and the Evanuris in the Beyond. So it's not unlikely that they are in the one place in the Beyond that is extremely hard to get to, and is a place one could be locked in in the first place - a city.

 

But we have to remember that Cory says the Golden City was already tainted before they got to the city. I don't believe he was delusional at all in any sense. The City was most likely tainted already but why. This is what I believe the so called heavens were that Solas told the Creators his magic blade was located. An a Golden City sure does sound like it could be a sort of heaven for sure. I would believe the act of betrayal an the rage of the Creators would have tainted the city.

 

So if your thinking the Golden City is there prison then I'm with you.  

[leaguer of one]

its clear from codex entries that there was a distinction between the Fade and the physical world before the Fade, even if the borders were open, but I don't think that means we're actually touching real physical stone in the Fade at Adamant.  

 

Hear me out here.  I think everything we see there is the result of spirit fabrication.  They have to be able to make physical objects, otherwise those Avvar statues from the First Blight couldn't have gotten there.  There's even a codex talking about why there are floating rocks in the Fade, its because the dreamers don't focus on the ground and the spirits don't get connections between ideas..  The codex speculates that if dwarves could dream, then the stones wouldn't float, because dwarves are so attuned with the ground.  So everything in this place is runs on the rules of spirit perceptions.  So why couldn't the very ground we're standing on also be some spirit's craft?  So is the reason the Fade seems different at Adamant because its physical or because we're not looking through the eyes of a dreamer?

 

I'm suggesting that we didn't enter a physical place in the Fade, we entered a non-physical space with physical bodies.

That was from before we learn how the veil was made. Remember, all the lore and codex is based for  people in thedas trying to understand what they don't full comprehend from the little perspective they have.

 

Remember, in our world people use to think the world was flat, we only had  4 elements, and the sun and stars revolved around the earth. As we got more information and a better perspective we found out that was wrong.

 

The same thing is happening with the lore of dragon age. The more info and perspective we get the more we find out what is right and wrong. So don't take everything in the codes in how the wolf of thedas works as unchangeable facts.

[leaguer of one]

Well then who made the titans?

Who knows. All that is know so far is the dragons were first.