314 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

Wait really? Where?
And does that mean that the titan is a will or a physical body? Would that make the forstbacks like a really bad rash or something?

More it theory that frostback maybe a titan.

[Heimdall]

That's not right. Everything we read about the old world suggests that thinking about the Fade as a "dimension" is wrong, because it suggests a separate. The "Fade" was part of the world. It was just a different aspect of it. Dreams are a good IRL analogy, because no one thinks when we dream we literally inhabit a separate reality. 

 

The pocket dimension stuff is totally separate, and those are "dimensions" in the sci-fi sense. 

An aspect of the world, sure, but it existed, is my point.  Creating the Veil didn't just shove all the spirits and magic away from the world into something new, the Fade existed as a "place" ancient elves explored while they dreamed.  Solas didn't create the Fade when he created the Veil.

[In Exile]

its clear from codex entries that there was a distinction between the Fade and the physical world before the Fade, even if the borders were open, but I don't think that means we're actually touching real physical stone in the Fade at Adamant.  

 

It's not entirely clear what the "Fade"; the only source we have on it apart from Solas are a few scant codex entries from Trespasser. Solas suggests that the Fade wasn't a place, it was an aspect of the world. The elves talk as if the Fade was a place, but we talk about plenty of things as if they were places when they aren't (again, dreams being the key example here). 

 

At Adamant, we're touching real stone. Whether or not you think it's stone from our world is besides the point - at Adamant, our physical body, that thing we are in reality in Thedas, crossed through a dimension and is in the Fade. The same thing happens when we cross through in the Eluvian. We see that whatever the "Fade" is can float rocks - this is what we see when it leaks out into the real world in "In Hushed Whispers." 

 

Magic in Thedas is quite literally using your will to create physical things. Mages create physical things. It's not unreasonable to say that the entirety of the Fade - which at least for now is a pocket dimension thanks to the Veil - could easily allow people to create  physical things. 

 

Hear me out here.  I think everything we see there is the result of spirit fabrication.  They have to be able to make physical objects, otherwise those Avvar statues from the First Blight couldn't have gotten there.  There's even a codex talking about why there are floating rocks in the Fade, its because the dreamers don't focus on the ground and the spirits don't get connections between ideas..  The codex speculates that if dwarves could dream, then the stones wouldn't float, because dwarves are so attuned with the ground.  So everything in this place is runs on the rules of spirit perceptions.  So why couldn't the very ground we're standing on also be some spirit's craft?  So is the reason the Fade seems different at Adamant because its physical or because we're not looking through the eyes of a dreamer?

 

Any modern codex we read on the Fade is wrong. And we know it's wrong, because it's based on false assumptions about the nature of reality. The Fade runs on perception, sure, but we know for a fact it's not what spirits perceive, because spirits don't have a self, except in exceptional cases. The perception driving the Fade is the perception of mortals. 

 

Ignoring that someone could just easily punch a hole in the Veil and get physical stuff in the Fade (we did that in DA:I, after all), there's (again) nothing to say that you can't create something from nothing using the power of pure thought in the Fade. That's probably what all of the post-Veil stuff in the Fade is - thought. 

[leaguer of one]

They used to not have a wall between them.  That's not the same thing.

 

You're very selective about how you pay attention to the DLC, you know that?  You've yet to explain how this makes any sense if severing them from the Fade destroyed these places.

Sorry but everything state say the fade and the waking world was one. Solas tells you himself how spirits where a natural part of the world.

 

Then you have this with spirit Cole.

[leaguer of one]

An aspect of the world, sure, but it existed, is my point.  Creating the Veil didn't just shove all the spirits and magic away from the world into something new, the Fade existed as a "place" ancient elves explored while they dreamed.  Solas didn't create the Fade when he created the Veil.

No one is saying he made the fade. Just that the fade is part of the waking world. Just because it's part of something does not mean it does not have it own name for it self. My arm is part of my body but not call "body" it's called a part of the body.

[In Exile]

An aspect of the world, sure, but it existed, is my point.  Creating the Veil didn't just shove all the spirits and magic away from the world into something new, the Fade existed as a "place" ancient elves explored while they dreamed.  Solas didn't create the Fade when he created the Veil.

 

Water is an "aspect" of the world. It's total insanity to talk about water as a "place". We have absolutely no idea what creating the Veil did, but the absolute weight of evidence in DA:I is that creating the Veil absolutely shoved all of the spirits and magic from the world into a physical space. Solas literally tells you this is what happened in Haven. I'll try and find a youtube video of his dialogue. 

 

Solas didn't create the "Fade" - or what he refers to and the old elves understood as the "Fade" - but he absolutely did create an actual physical space where he shoved in the spirits, i.e., the other side of the "Veil". Let me use this analogy: 

 

I have an empty room. Across the room are a bunch of ball bearings. They're spread evenly across the room. Suddenly, I draw a curtain across a part of the room. I shove all the ball bearings on one side of the curtain. Suddenly, we can talk about the curtain as thing, and about the part of the room where there are ball bearings and where there aren't. The very clear separation between the two makes talking about separate places suddenly make sense. But that doesn't mean the separation is a naturally occuring feature of the world. 

 

The Fade - the modern Fade - is like that, but at a more abstract level. It's not that what the Fade "is" somehow changed. The ethereal, mind over matter nature of it is what it always was. That nature just got shoved into a small space. Whether that space was always part of the world, whether it was an ancient elven pocket dimension, that doesn't matter. 

 

Whatever Solas did to create the Veil messed with the fabric of all of reality, and separated it. That's the "split in two" language from Trespasser. And Solas tells us very clearly the Fade wasn't a "place you went" in his Haven dialogue. 

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Who knows. All that is know so far is the dragons were first.

Source?

[Heimdall]

That was from before we learn how the veil was made. Remember, all the lore and codex is based for  people in thedas trying to understand what they don't full comprehend from the little perspective they have.

 

Remember, in our world people use to think the world was flat, we only had  4 elements, and the sun and stars revolved around the earth. As we got more information and a better perspective we found out that was wrong.

 

The same thing is happening with the lore of dragon age. The more info and perspective we get the more we find out what is right and wrong. So don't take everything in the codes in how the wolf of thedas works as unchangeable facts.

...See, I was just bringing up an idea, whether or not the codex is objective fact doesn't matter, even the codex I brought up said it was speculating.

 

We know spirits change the Fade, we know that's where many of the objects we encounter there must come from.  So why not the ground itself?

 

It has to. Seeing as Solas gave the orb to Cory to open a way to the City. I believe the City is the "heaven" Solas locked the Elves in
 this would explain why the City was already tainted as Cory said when he emerged in legacy

Solas gave the orb to Cory so Cory would die opening it for him.  Solas only ever mentions wanting to cross the Veil, he never mentions the city.

 

Are you sure? My impression was that the aspects of the fade and waking world were combined before the veil. That there was no veil-that's-like-Solas'-veil-only-it-sucks. Just no barrier at all.

They were joined, certainly, quite closely, but the Fade was still the Fade.  There's a codex that talks about elves exploring its depths in dreams.  So clearly there was some separation.

[In Exile]

The city itself needn't be elvhen, I suppose, but it's almost certainly where the Evanuris are. WoT V2 states that the modern elves believe that is where they are, which isn't proof of course, but usually they at least get the big stuff right. And I see no reason why that would be false (and in a meta sense, the fact that they just added it to their lore indicates it's probably true).

 

Also, Solas locked the Forgotten Ones away in the Void, and the Evanuris in the Beyond. So it's not unlikely that they are in the one place in the Beyond that is extremely hard to get to, and is a place one could be locked in in the first place - a city.

 

Are we buying the Forgotten Ones part of the story with Solas? He doesn't allude to it when he talks about creating the Veil. 

[In Exile]

Wait really? Where?
And does that mean that the titan is a will or a physical body? Would that make the forstbacks like a really bad rash or something?

 

Trespasser. We don't know enough to say what a titan even is - we just know that lyrium "veins" are part of it. 

[TraiHarder]

Who knows. All that is know so far is the dragons were first.

 

The sexy Great Dragons. Maybe their fire brought the Stone to life creating titans
 

[Ashagar]

The city itself needn't be elvhen, I suppose, but it's almost certainly where the Evanuris are. WoT V2 states that the modern elves believe that is where they are, which isn't proof of course, but usually they at least get the big stuff right. And I see no reason why that would be false (and in a meta sense, the fact that they just added it to their lore indicates it's probably true).

 

Also, Solas locked the Forgotten Ones away in the Void, and the Evanuris in the Beyond. So it's not unlikely that they are in the one place in the Beyond that is extremely hard to get to, and is a place one could be locked in in the first place - a city.

 

Hmm well there are certain things that seem to be true both in the elven and human beliefs that have been true for better or worse though it yet to be put together. It could be possible that the Maker created the world and even the golden city then left after or before the Evuaurius starting playing god and then Solas came along and locked them in the Golden City to keep from doing what ever it was he thought would utterly destroy the world but at a high cost.

 

Later comes along Corypheus and company who breach the city via massive blood sacrifices(thousands of slaves) and a empire's supply worth of lyrium finding as Corypheus put it nothing but dead whispers and darkness amongst the golden halls before something cast them out and the city turned black.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

The sexy Great Dragons. Maybe their fire brought the Stone to life creating titans
 

And their the old gods? Or is that Magical Book Knowledge^tm

[Mlady]

Wait really? Where?
And does that mean that the titan is a will or a physical body? Would that make the forstbacks like a really bad rash or something?

 

http://dragonage.wik..._the_Deep_Roads

[TraiHarder]

 

 

Solas gave the orb to Cory so Cory would die opening it for him.  Solas only ever mentions wanting to cross the Veil, he never mentions the city.

.

 

What that makes no sense Cory did it once I'm sure he could have done it again without dying. He knew Cory wanted to get back to the City an he helped him with supplying the power to do so to speed things up. An why would he mention the City he doesn't mention a lot of thing if you didn't notice lmao

 

The City fits perfectly to be the so called heavens the creators went to, to look for the weapon he promised them. Not to mention EVERYONE FORGET CORY SAYS THE CITY WAS TAINTED BEFORE THEY GOT THERE. Cory isn't stupid by any means. I'm sure he remembers what happened. Capturing them in the city would enrage them an could have caused the taint that changed the city. This would explain one why the city was tainted before they got there. An two why Solas would want to get to the City.

 

 

You can't see the connection here COME OOOOOOOOOOOON.

[leaguer of one]

...See, I was just bringing up an idea, whether or not the codex is objective fact doesn't matter, even the codex I brought up said it was speculating.

 

We know spirits change the Fade, we know that's where many of the objects we encounter there must come from.  So why not the ground itself?

 

 

Not really. Spirit can change the fade but that not of their own power. It's based on their ideal and ideal is only what is powering them. Any power spirit or demons get are from the waking world. How much of that ideal or emotion they can get is how power full they can get. The nightmare demon is super powerful and can change the fade around it but that's only because it was collecting all the fears of beings of the waking word for countless years.  Also, no matter what it shown that powerful mages and people of great power are even more powerful then the spirits  in the fade if they understand how to manipulate the fade.

[leaguer of one]

Source?

Dragon Age: The Silent Grove .

[TraiHarder]

And their the old gods? Or is that Magical Book Knowledge^tm

 

on no I wasn't agreeing that they were first sat no the Old gods were supposedly high dragons possessed by spirits but who knows. we don't know alot about them since most are dead. But Great Dragons were the first dragons much more powerful than a high dragon but they went extinct. But Yavana Flemeths daughter brought them back to life recently.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

on no I wasn't agreeing that they were first sat no the Old gods were supposedly high dragons possessed by spirits but who knows. we don't know alot about them since most are dead. But Great Dragons were the first dragons much more powerful than a high dragon but they went extinct. But Yavana Flemeths daughter brought them back to life recently.

So...the great dragons just nyoomed through space and time and poofed thedas, and therefore the titans, into existence? A port-a-bang, as it were? (Ba dum tss)

[jedidotflow]

That sounds something that would be a retcon to me.

 

I don't think the Black City has anything to do with the elves.

 

This would be true if Tamlen hadn't seen a city through the Eluvian that gave him the Blight. And Blight + City + Eluvian, pretty certain it's meant to be the Black City.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

This would be true if Tamlen hadn't seen a city through the Eluvian that gave him the Blight. And Blight + City + Eluvian, pretty certain it's meant to be the Black City.

He saw a city underground. Could easily be the deep roads.

[Heimdall]

Water is an "aspect" of the world. It's total insanity to talk about water as a "place". We have absolutely no idea what creating the Veil did, but the absolute weight of evidence in DA:I is that creating the Veil absolutely shoved all of the spirits and magic from the world into a physical space. Solas literally tells you this is what happened in Haven. I'll try and find a youtube video of his dialogue. 
 
Solas didn't create the "Fade" - or what he refers to and the old elves understood as the "Fade" - but he absolutely did create an actual physical space where he shoved in the spirits, i.e., the other side of the "Veil". Let me use this analogy: 
 
I have an empty room. Across the room are a bunch of ball bearings. They're spread evenly across the room. Suddenly, I draw a curtain across a part of the room. I shove all the ball bearings on one side of the curtain. Suddenly, we can talk about the curtain as thing, and about the part of the room where there are ball bearings and where there aren't. The very clear separation between the two makes talking about separate places suddenly make sense. But that doesn't mean the separation is a naturally occuring feature of the world

Where that analogy falls apart for me is that the ancient elves talk about exploring the depths of the Fade.  I don't think Solas put the Fade into a physical space.  Allow me to try my own analogy.  Let's say there's a wall to wall carpet in this room.  That's the Fade.  It's everywhere, but it can be explored and examined separately from the rest of the room.  It's part of the room, interacts with the room and everything in the room, everything in the room interacts with it, making impressions (And it can be manipulated to change the furniture, not sure how to work that into the analogy).  The bugs infesting it can effortless climb up onto the furniture and back again.  But it is a distinct object, not intermixed with everything else even as it is connected to everything else.  Now, the Veil is a new carpet that covers up the Fade carpet, everything is still interacting with the Fade, but muffled through the medium of the Veil, doesn't make as strong impressions.
 

The Fade - the modern Fade - is like that, but at a more abstract level. It's not that what the Fade "is" somehow changed. The ethereal, mind over matter nature of it is what it always was. That nature just got shoved into a small space. Whether that space was always part of the world, whether it was an ancient elven pocket dimension, that doesn't matter. 
 
Whatever Solas did to create the Veil messed with the fabric of all of reality, and separated it. That's the "split in two" language from Trespasser. And Solas tells us very clearly the Fade wasn't a "place you went" in his Haven dialogue.

I'm not trying to say the Fade was a physical place before the Veil, I'm sorry if my language was confusing.  I don't think it was and I don't think it is now.  It is a nonphysical place, existing concurrently with the physical.  Solas references this in his Haven dialogue, he talks about moving to different physical space to explore different regions of the Fade.  That's why I think your idea of Solas shutting the Fade into a small physical space is wrong.  Solas makes clear that the Fade is still present everywhere, connected to all physical space, its just harder to reach.

 

When Solas talks about splitting the world in two, he's talking about shutting away an aspect of reality, but not into a new physical space.  The separation isn't physical, it's spiritual (That's the best term I can think of).

[Heimdall]

This would be true if Tamlen hadn't seen a city through the Eluvian that gave him the Blight. And Blight + City + Eluvian, pretty certain it's meant to be the Black City.

He saw a city underground.

 

Actually, its possible that he was seeing the physical Arlathan, which Tevinter sunk below the ground, through an Eluvian in the city.

[TraiHarder]

So...the great dragons just nyoomed through space and time and poofed thedas, and therefore the titans, into existence? A port-a-bang, as it were? (Ba dum tss)

 

Who knows an don't forget Thedas is just a continent. I just know they come before they High Dragons an were very powerful an their fire held tons of magic an was just special.

[Heimdall]

Not really. Spirit can change the fade but that not of their own power. It's based on their ideal and ideal is only what is powering them. Any power spirit or demons get are from the waking world. How much of that ideal or emotion they can get is how power full they can get. The nightmare demon is super powerful and can change the fade around it but that's only because it was collecting all the fears of beings of the waking word for countless years.  Also, no matter what it shown that powerful mages and people of great power are even more powerful then the spirits  in the fade if they understand how to manipulate the fade.

Spirits can change the Fade at will, it isn't lack of power but lack of originality that leads them to mimic what they see in mortal dreams.