314 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

 CAPS ARE GREAT SO GO F YOURSELF

 

An oh wow so caps aren't good but says "oh Solas didn't say it means it didn't happen" is a explanation right? Because he's such a trustworthy person right? plz stfu

 

To believe that Cory would die from doing something he did before is idiotic at best. Yet this is the person you for some reason trust with all your might omg Solas the one true prophet in your eyes would tell you EVERYTHING right?

 

So please don't get mad at me that your prophet isn't being completely honest with you an you don't want to make a theory on the obvious that's right in front of you.

Solas volunteers to answer our questions when he could have left us entirely in the dark, his answers are worth considering, especially when they make sense.

 

Its atleast a step above make crap up with no proof and denial like you are.

[TraiHarder]

Oh you'd be surprised.

 

I kinda know the rules bud. An taking the thread off course like this is actually against the rules so you should stop bud.
 

[Donk]

I kinda know the rules bud. An taking the thread off course like this is actually against the rules so you should stop bud.
 

 

Okay bud.

[robertthebard]

Do you know we use to thing the sun revolved around the earth. Lack of knowledge and perspective effect who people see the world around them.  Just because it's called the golden city does not mean they actually saw a golden city in the fade.
 
This is not the first time the golden city was spoken of. It's taked about in the saga of Tyrdda Bright-Axe.
 
http://dragonage.wik...e,_Avvar-Mother
 

Second stanza:
 
Thelm Gold-Handed, fingers greasy, jeweled rings 
with glitter shone, 
Took in tribes in times of trouble, fed them fat to 
weaken bone. 
Warriors great and great in number, sun-kissed
swords to fight his wars, 
Drake-scaled shirts their bodies covered, heart-wine 
stained the salty shores. 
Told his tribes a tale of treasure, over sea to north 
it gleamed, 
Whispered words to drive the droves to golden city 
where he dreamed. 
Counseled quick in dreams alone, 
Voices wiser man ignores, 
Pushed the tribes until they screamed, 
Heed the dreams and cross the Waking.

 
 
Fourth stanza:
 
Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Thelm Gold-Handed, battle 
brought with blade and ax, 
Thelm in mail and shields of silver, shining sheen to 
turn attacks. 
Blade of dragonbone, now blooded, warrior throats 
wrung raw with cheers, 
Tyrdda stands, her bright ax blazing, leg still 
weeping battle-tears. 
Bright the ax of leaf-eared lover, laughing lady of 
the skies, 
Fire flares as Thelm Gold-Handed, honey-tongued, 
repeats his lies. 
"North to warmth, and golden cities, 
Whispers speak in Dreamers' ears!" 
Silver scorched, the liar flies 
On raven's beaks, to dream unwaking. 
 
 
 
But it states the guy, Thelm, was only told about it by spirits in his dreams.

So what you've done here is provide proof that someone dreaming saw the Golden City in the Fade. I'm not sure, based on what you said before you provided this proof, what you're now trying to say; that Tevinter Magisters don't know Gold from Black when they're dreaming in the Fade? How many years before Cory and his cohorts entered the Fade did these events take place? They can't have been after these events, because, as we know from Cory, and our own experience bears it out, that it's the Black City after he goes. So what you have effectively done here is verify that Arlathan and the Black City didn't have to co-exist.

[leaguer of one]

So what you've done here is provide proof that someone dreaming saw the Golden City in the Fade. I'm not sure, based on what you said before you provided this proof, what you're now trying to say; that Tevinter Magisters don't know Gold from Black when they're dreaming in the Fade? How many years before Cory and his cohorts entered the Fade did these events take place? They can't have been after these events, because, as we know from Cory, and our own experience bears it out, that it's the Black City after he goes. So what you have effectively done here is verify that Arlathan and the Black City didn't have to co-exist.

It says the whispers in his dream told him there was a golden city, not that he saw it.

 

And it's not as if they can tell gold from black. It's that from their perspective they may of saw something that was not what it was. There is no proof that the city was actually golden.

[TraiHarder]

Solas volunteers to answer our questions when he could have left us entirely in the dark, his answers are worth considering, especially when they make sense.

 

Its atleast a step above make crap up with no proof and denial like you are.

 

Oh yea because he was so trustworthy before right?

 

An lmao did I ever say I stated fact? OH WHAT I didn't OMG no way so your saying I was stating my theory NO WAY.

Its not like its a thing EVERYONE does here.

 

Because making a theory isnt essentially making things up right? Using the information we already know like Cory saying straight out that the City was already black yea I mean that's nothing at all. But yet OH WAIT Solas made tons of things up yet I mean once he says sure ill answer questions you take everything he says to heart. Because he's tell you everything right?

 

So again when you can actually give a actually argument to why the creators aren't locked in the City other than the crap of Oh Solas doesn't say anything about the City soooooooooooo the center of the fade just must mean nothing.

[TraiHarder]

Okay bud.

 

I'm not your bud but you're my bud remember that.

 

But would you like to get in on the actual convo of the thread? Its really interesting.
 

[robertthebard]

It says the whispers in his dream told him there was a golden city, not that he saw it.

...and how many years before Cory went into the Fade? 10, 100, 1,000? That's my point. Taking everything we know into account, they absolutely didn't have to co-exist. In fact, it's likely that the Black City didn't exist at all in the time of Arlathan. In order for this to be true, Arlathan would have had to have existed when Cory went into the Fade. Since the Imperium was built upon the remains of Elven society, that's not possible.

[TraiHarder]

So what you've done here is provide proof that someone dreaming saw the Golden City in the Fade. I'm not sure, based on what you said before you provided this proof, what you're now trying to say; that Tevinter Magisters don't know Gold from Black when they're dreaming in the Fade? How many years before Cory and his cohorts entered the Fade did these events take place? They can't have been after these events, because, as we know from Cory, and our own experience bears it out, that it's the Black City after he goes. So what you have effectively done here is verify that Arlathan and the Black City didn't have to co-exist.

 

You don't see black when you see the City did you not see the City when we went into the fade? It still shines bright you wouldn't be able to tell it was tainted until you actually would make it there an presumably open the door I guess.
 

[Reznore57]

Arlathan is probably the Golden City , yep.

 

The fact is the magisters would never had sunken Arlathan underground unless they were drunk.

It was the heart of elven civilization, and they were fond of elven knowledge , also ...elves liked their gold.

No one is able nowadays to find this bloody city , let's say the magisters did sunk it underground , you'd still find things , and again every looters would have run there.

It was before the darkspawn so you could dig underground.

But nope the city went poof!

 

I'm pretty sure Abelas says "the shemlen did not destroy Arlathan." too.

[leaguer of one]

...and how many years before Cory went into the Fade? 10, 100, 1,000? That's my point. Taking everything we know into account, they absolutely didn't have to co-exist. In fact, it's likely that the Black City didn't exist at all in the time of Arlathan. In order for this to be true, Arlathan would have had to have existed when Cory went into the Fade. Since the Imperium was built upon the remains of Elven society, that's not possible.

Oh my god.

 

Do you even understand what you're saying.

 

1. Cory went to the "Golden City" over 1000 years ago.

 

2. Elven history is way , way older then that.

 

3. What the elves call things is different from what humans or even tevinter call thing.   Aka how each culture has a different name for the sky.

[TraiHarder]

Arlathan is probably the Golden City , yep.

 

The fact is the magisters would never had sunken Arlathan underground unless they were drunk.

It was the heart of elven civilization, and they were fond of elven knowledge , also ...elves liked their gold.

No one is able nowadays to find this bloody city , let's say the magisters did sunk it underground , you'd still find things , and again every looters would have run there.

It was before the darkspawn so you could dig underground.

But nope the city went poof!

 

I'm pretty sure Abelas says "the shemlen did not destroy Arlathan." too.

 

You talk just like Sera

[robertthebard]

Oh my god.
 
Do you even understand what you're saying.
 
1. Cory went to the "Golden City" over 1000 years ago.
 
2. Elven history is way , way older then that.
 
3. What the elves call things is different from what humans or even tevinter call thing.   Aka how each culture has a different name for the sky.

OK, so tell me, how can the Black City, and Arlathan have existed at the same time, if one predates the other by centuries? You see, the point I'm debating here is that the poster I initially quoted stated that the Black City and Arlathan must have co-existed. I have yet to see anything provided that demonstrates that they did. I have seen some conjecture about the Avaar, I have seen you claim that Cory went to the Golden City 1000 years ago, but that's not news, I stated the same information myself. So instead of trying to run down my intelligence, provide something that demonstrates that the Black City and Arlathan co-existed.

Tevinter and Southern Thedas call it the Black City, independently, I might add. So people in both of these cultures are now seeing a Black City, but when Cory went, he was going for the Golden City. He claims it was already black, but the Chantry claims that their hubris was what caused it to turn black. That's the information we have, and that transformation could have been instaneous, or nonexistent, we don't know. What we do know is that you have provided evidence that it was still the Golden City before Cory went. Arlathan was destroyed well before Cory went, and so, if our information is correct, the Black City and Arlathan could not have existed at the same time. Now, if you have some lore that counters that, do share, but "OMG, you're so dense, why can't you just accept my theory" isn't going to cut it as proof.

[Heimdall]

Arlathan is probably the Golden City , yep.
 
The fact is the magisters would never had sunken Arlathan underground unless they were drunk.
It was the heart of elven civilization, and they were fond of elven knowledge , also ...elves liked their gold.
No one is able nowadays to find this bloody city , let's say the magisters did sunk it underground , you'd still find things , and again every looters would have run there.
It was before the darkspawn so you could dig underground.
But nope the city went poof!
 
I'm pretty sure Abelas says "the shemlen did not destroy Arlathan." too.

Abelas says the elves destroyed themselves and Tevinter was basically picking over a corpse, but Tevinter was there.

This is explained in WoT, I believe. The siege was proving too costly for the fledgling empire, so they cut their losses and made sure their enemy wouldn't be able to regroup around the capital by sinking it and apparently burying it.

It says the whispers in his dream told him there was a golden city, not that he saw it.
 
And it's not as if they can tell gold from black. It's that from their perspective they may of saw something that was not what it was. There is no proof that the city was actually golden.

Tevinter records say it appeared Golden, just as it now appears Black. That is what people saw. There's no getting around that there was a visibly Golden City prior to Cory. This is according to Gaider.

[Heimdall]

Oh yea because he was so trustworthy before right?
 
An lmao did I ever say I stated fact? OH WHAT I didn't OMG no way so your saying I was stating my theory NO WAY.
Its not like its a thing EVERYONE does here.
 
Because making a theory isnt essentially making things up right? Using the information we already know like Cory saying straight out that the City was already black yea I mean that's nothing at all. But yet OH WAIT Solas made tons of things up yet I mean once he says sure ill answer questions you take everything he says to heart. Because he's tell you everything right?
 
So again when you can actually give a actually argument to why the creators aren't locked in the City other than the crap of Oh Solas doesn't say anything about the City soooooooooooo the center of the fade just must mean nothing.

Knowing that he has twisted the truth doesn't mean we should automatically assume he's lying, especially when it doesn't make sense to. He openly admits that going to the Fade and tearing down the Veil as he plans will destroy the known world. Why would he admit to that and then lie about going to the city? What's the point?  And actually Solas doesn't make a lot up.  Sure, he lies about who he is and the source of his knowledge, but the information he gives you is generally true.

A theory is based on available evidence and reasoned speculation. That's how you make a good theory. What you don't do is make things up without a shred of evidence and deny everything that contradicts your idea in allcaps and insults.  For the record, Cory only half-remembers his trip to the Golden City, plus we have word of god writer confirmation that the City appeared Golden before Cory got there.

 

Can you give me a reason to think they are in the Golden City?  Solas says creating the Veil trapped them and seems to imply they're trapped in a non-Fade pocket dimension like the Crossroads.  But the City is in the Fade, not a pocket dimension, so it doesn't make sense that they would be there.

[leaguer of one]

OK, so tell me, how can the Black City, and Arlathan have existed at the same time, if one predates the other by centuries? You see, the point I'm debating here is that the poster I initially quoted stated that the Black City and Arlathan must have co-existed. I have yet to see anything provided that demonstrates that they did. I have seen some conjecture about the Avaar, I have seen you claim that Cory went to the Golden City 1000 years ago, but that's not news, I stated the same information myself. So instead of trying to run down my intelligence, provide something that demonstrates that the Black City and Arlathan co-existed.

Tevinter and Southern Thedas call it the Black City, independently, I might add. So people in both of these cultures are now seeing a Black City, but when Cory went, he was going for the Golden City. He claims it was already black, but the Chantry claims that their hubris was what caused it to turn black. That's the information we have, and that transformation could have been instaneous, or nonexistent, we don't know. What we do know is that you have provided evidence that it was still the Golden City before Cory went. Arlathan was destroyed well before Cory went, and so, if our information is correct, the Black City and Arlathan could not have existed at the same time. Now, if you have some lore that counters that, do share, but "OMG, you're so dense, why can't you just accept my theory" isn't going to cut it as proof.

1. because a. the anceint elve never called anything  the black city.

And b. humans and people modern thedas have been mistake what they are witness as something else. 

 

Their is no quote or lore say they co-exsited. No elven lore has it. 

 

2.Actually, it only started to be called the black city after the blight happened. It was only spread as the black city by the chantry. it was only call the golden city before by dreamers who exsisted before the chantry. Also, the chantry does not full understand what is going on with the fade and the black city. Remeber, they state the maker made the veil...which we find out they are wrong.. and the maker made the spirit, which if we talk with Justice in da:a we find they are wrong, and fade was not part of the waking world....which we find out is also wrong.

 

 

The point you mistake. Why? because you thing their something in the lore that states Arlathan exsited when the black city was around.

​It was not. In fact dai, in the well of sorrows with Abelas prove that wrong.

 

Abelas tells you Arlathan fell due to civil war way before tevinter was  around....So the city you are refering to they Tevinter took down was not Arlathan.  That city was gone many years ago.

[leaguer of one]

Tevinter records say it appeared Golden, just as it now appears Black. That is what people saw. There's no getting around that there was a visibly Golden City prior to Cory. This is according to Gaider.

That's only based fro dreamer who only talked to the old gods. Nothing say they actually saw the city.

[Heimdall]

That's only based fro dreamer who only talked to the old gods. Nothing say they actually saw the city.

No, its word of god.  Gaider has confirmed that dreaming Tevinters before the First Blight described the City as Golden.  You don't have a leg to stand on here.

[leaguer of one]

Knowing that he has twisted the truth doesn't mean we should automatically assume he's lying, especially when it doesn't make sense to. He openly admits that going to the Fade and tearing down the Veil as he plans will destroy the known world. Why would he admit to that and then lie about going to the city? What's the point?  And actually Solas doesn't make a lot up.  Sure, he lies about who he is and the source of his knowledge, but the information he gives you is generally true.

A theory is based on available evidence and reasoned speculation. That's how you make a good theory. What you don't do is make things up without a shred of evidence and deny everything that contradicts your idea in allcaps and insults.  For the record, Cory only half-remembers his trip to the Golden City, plus we have word of god writer confirmation that the City appeared Golden before Cory got there.

 

Can you give me a reason to think they are in the Golden City?  Solas says creating the Veil trapped them and seems to imply they're trapped in a non-Fade pocket dimension like the Crossroads.  But the City is in the Fade, not a pocket dimension, so it doesn't make sense that they would be there.

1. Why would he mention the city? It not part of his plan. Added, if it's really Arlathan, why would he call it the golden city?

2. He not going to mention the city.

​3. Cory fully remember that trip. You confusing he being loopy after waking up with lack of memory. he full remember that trip.

 

4. The pocket dimension are in the fade.

[leaguer of one]

No, its word of god.  Gaider has confirmed that dreaming Tevinters before the First Blight described the City as Golden.  You don't have a leg to stand on here.

Agein base on what was told to them. Nothing say they actually saw the city as golden.

 

What he said was 

" The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. "

 

Nothing out of that says they actually saw the city and seen it was golden. Only that it existed.

 

 

This is not the first time it was like this as the Alamarri tribes also were told about the golden city.

 

http://dragonage.wik...e,_Avvar-Mother
 

Second stanza:
 
Thelm Gold-Handed, fingers greasy, jeweled rings 
with glitter shone, 
Took in tribes in times of trouble, fed them fat to 
weaken bone. 
Warriors great and great in number, sun-kissed
swords to fight his wars, 
Drake-scaled shirts their bodies covered, heart-wine 
stained the salty shores. 
Told his tribes a tale of treasure, over sea to north 
it gleamed, 
Whispered words to drive the droves to golden city 
where he dreamed. 
Counseled quick in dreams alone, 
Voices wiser man ignores, 
Pushed the tribes until they screamed, 
Heed the dreams and cross the Waking.

 
 
Fourth stanza:
 
Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Thelm Gold-Handed, battle 
brought with blade and ax, 
Thelm in mail and shields of silver, shining sheen to 
turn attacks. 
Blade of dragonbone, now blooded, warrior throats 
wrung raw with cheers, 
Tyrdda stands, her bright ax blazing, leg still 
weeping battle-tears. 
Bright the ax of leaf-eared lover, laughing lady of 
the skies, 
Fire flares as Thelm Gold-Handed, honey-tongued, 
repeats his lies. 
"North to warmth, and golden cities, 
Whispers speak in Dreamers' ears!" 
Silver scorched, the liar flies 
On raven's beaks, to dream unwaking. 

 

​Nothing says they saw said city.

[robertthebard]

1. because a. the anceint elve never called anything  the black city.
And b. humans and people modern thedas have been mistake what they are witness as something else. 
 
Their is not quote or lore say they co-exsited. No elven lore has it.

Could have stopped right here.

[Heimdall]

1. Why would he mention the city? It not part of his plan. Added, if it's really Arlathan, why would he call it the golden city?

2. He not going to mention the city.

​3. Cory fully remember that trip. You confusing he being loopy after waking up with lack of memory. he full remember that trip.

 

4. The pocket dimension are in the fade.

1. TraiHarder's theory is that Solas wants to get to the City just like Cory, it makes no sense that he would hold that back after freely revealing he plans to destroy the world.

2. I know, because it isn't part of his plan.

3. No, according to Cole his memory of the event is chaotic and confused.  He also contradicts himself about it and claims he walked the halls of the Golden City.

4. No, they are not.  Until you can explain how they can be severed from the Fade while being inside the Fade, you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

 

Agein base on what was told to them. Nothing say they actually saw the city as golden.

 

What he said was 

" The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. "

 

Nothing out of that says they actually saw the city and seen it was golden. Only that it existed.

 

 

This is not the first time it was like this as the Alamarri tribes also were told about the golden city.

 

http://dragonage.wik...e,_Avvar-Mother
 

Second stanza:
 
Thelm Gold-Handed, fingers greasy, jeweled rings 
with glitter shone, 
Took in tribes in times of trouble, fed them fat to 
weaken bone. 
Warriors great and great in number, sun-kissed
swords to fight his wars, 
Drake-scaled shirts their bodies covered, heart-wine 
stained the salty shores. 
Told his tribes a tale of treasure, over sea to north 
it gleamed, 
Whispered words to drive the droves to golden city 
where he dreamed. 
Counseled quick in dreams alone, 
Voices wiser man ignores, 
Pushed the tribes until they screamed, 
Heed the dreams and cross the Waking.

 
 
Fourth stanza:
 
Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Thelm Gold-Handed, battle 
brought with blade and ax, 
Thelm in mail and shields of silver, shining sheen to 
turn attacks. 
Blade of dragonbone, now blooded, warrior throats 
wrung raw with cheers, 
Tyrdda stands, her bright ax blazing, leg still 
weeping battle-tears. 
Bright the ax of leaf-eared lover, laughing lady of 
the skies, 
Fire flares as Thelm Gold-Handed, honey-tongued, 
repeats his lies. 
"North to warmth, and golden cities, 
Whispers speak in Dreamers' ears!" 
Silver scorched, the liar flies 
On raven's beaks, to dream unwaking. 

 

​Nothing says they saw said city.

 

Are you kidding?  There's even an error correction for the WoT saying that the city would have appeared golden at that time.  ...Are you even passingly familiar with the lore?  The City is visible from everywhere in the Fade.  Everyone can see the city.  They would be able to see what color it is.  So you think someone said it was gold and an entire civilization of Fade walking mages became selectively blind?  That's absurd.  You need proof that the city was never golden and Cory's confused recollections aren't going to cut it.

[leaguer of one]

Could have stopped right here.

What are you even saying anymore?

 

The black city and  Arlathan never was stated to exist at the same time. No lore with the ancent elves have it. Tevinter though the wrong city was Arlathan.

 

Why is this not getting through?

[leaguer of one]

1. TraiHarder's theory is that Solas wants to get to the City just like Cory, it makes no sense that he would hold that back after freely revealing he plans to destroy the world.

2. I know, because it isn't part of his plan.

3. No, according to Cole his memory of the event is chaotic and confused.  He also contradicts himself about it and claims he walked the halls of the Golden City.

4. No, they are not.  Until you can explain how they can be severed from the Fade while being inside the Fade, you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Are you kidding?  There's even an error correction for the WoT saying that the city would have appeared golden at that time.  ...Are you even passingly familiar with the lore?  The City is visible from everywhere in the Fade.  Everyone can see the city.  They would be able to see what color it is.  So you think someone said it was gold and an entire civilization of Fade walking mages became selectively blind?  That's absurd.  You need proof that the city was never golden and Cory's confused recollections aren't going to cut it.

 

1 and 2. Oh...Never mind.

3. Confusing of what he saw not what he remembered.

4.Can you explain why Cole say the shattered library is part of the fade?

 

5. Page number please.

 

6.Agein, not actual statement they actual saw it was golden. Only that it was Golden. Sorry but we don't know what they saw in the fade then and if it was the same now.

[robertthebard]

What are you even saying anymore?
 
The black city and  Arlathan never was stated to exist at the same time. No lore with the ancent elves have it. Tevinter though the wrong city was Arlathan.[/size]

 
Why is this not getting through?[/size]

This is the problem when you just jump blindly into a dialog w/out reading what both sides are saying: Here is some context for you to read, so that you understand why telling me what I've been saying all along doesn't disprove what I was saying.

You see, you jumped into this dialog with me, all fired up about defending something that apparently didn't need defended. However, if you follow the link, you'll see, I was asking a very specific question to a specific poster, one which you have answered, only instead of backing me off disagreeing with your theory, you've proven your theory false.