314 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

 
Why is this not getting through?[/size]

This is the problem when you just jump blindly into a dialog w/out reading what both sides are saying: Here is some context for you to read, so that you understand why telling me what I've been saying all along doesn't disprove what I was saying.

You see, you jumped into this dialog with me, all fired up about defending something that apparently didn't need defended. However, if you follow the link, you'll see, I was asking a very specific question to a specific poster, one which you have answered, only instead of backing me off disagreeing with your theory, you've proven your theory false.

ok ...sorry.

[Heimdall]

Could have stopped right here.

He says the elves destroyed themselves with civil war, but the civilization and the city, even though it was a shadow of its former glory, weren't necessarily wiped off the map.  He also likens Tevinter to a carrion bird devouring a corpse, Arlathan is the corpse, but apparently still strong enough to hold out.

 

1 and 2. Oh...Never mind.

3. Confusing of what he saw not what he remembered.

4.Can you explain why Cole say the shattered library is part of the fade?

 

5. Page number please.

 

6.Agein, not actual statement they actual saw it was golden. Only that it was Golden. Sorry but we don't know what they saw in the fade then and if it was the same now.

3. The isn't clear and it the distinction doesn't matter, point is his account isn't reliable.

4. Sure, it was created with magic.  Its existence is tied to the Fade.  The Fade is what's holding it together, or was holding it together.  All of these might explain why Cole thinks its part of the Fade, but it doesn't change the fact that it isn't.

 

5. http://blog.bioware....me-1-an-errata/- Written from an in universe perspective, like the rest of the book.

 

6.  We're talking about an entire civilization of eye witnesses, all of whom recorded the Golden City as Golden for thousands of years.  By that standard, you'll only accept that the golden city was ever golden if you go back in time and see it yourself.  Come on, that's ridiculous, that's denial in the face of overwhelming evidence.

[DanAxe]

Why would they have to co-exist? If the Chantry is right, Cory is the reason that the Golden City is the Black City. That was only a thousand or so years before Origins. The Veil already existed then, since Cory and his cohorts had to go through the Veil to physically enter the Fade. Their stated goal was to enter the Golden City, because that was the supposed seat of the Maker. So it wasn't Black then, or they'd have had a different goal.

 

Cory says in Legacy that when he entered the Golden City it was already Black. We can take the word of the Chantry over his ofc, but i'd rather take the word of someone who actually was there when it happened, than the story told and retold (and most likely changed with each passing generation) by the Chantry.

 

And if Arlathan and the Black City are 2 different cities, then ofc they had to co-exist, because before the veil, the fade and the physical world werent separated as they are now, so in a way they both existed in the same "dimension".

 

EDIT: I think the problem here is that im saying Black City and Arlathan (if not the same place) co-existed. Maybe if i phrase it differently:

If they are not the same city, then the GOLDEN City and Arlathan must have co-existed at some point, way before the fall of the elves and way before Tevinter came into play. Dont you think that's very possible and very likely true?

[Aren]

I don't think the Black City is even connected to the ancient elves. The Black City is connected to the taint. Avernus says that all the answers about the powers in the taint are there.

 

And it would SUCK, hard, if the taint was connected to the ancient elves. That would basically mean that everything wrong in Thedas right now has some ancient elf behind it.

 

 

Why is the Veil there? Ancient Elves

Why are there darkspawn? Ancient Elves

Why are there red lyrium? Ancient Elves, well Titans too but mostly ancient elves.

Why are there Archdemons? Ancient Elves

 

 

I'm not saying it was Ancient Elves

 

but it was Ancient Elves...

I'm sure that the black city was created by some mistakes from Solas,he tried to get it more golden,but..

[Heimdall]

Cory says in Legacy that when he entered the Golden City it was already Black. We can take the word of the Chantry over his ofc, but i'd rather take the word of someone who actually was there when it happened, than the story told and retold (and most likely changed with each passing generation) by the Chantry.

To be clear, he doesn't actually say that. He claims they expected the power of the gods but "it was black". This seems to imply that the city was black, but it doesn't necessarily have to. Especially since Tevinter has records from mages before the First Blight indicating the City did indeed appear Golden prior to that. It indicates that Cory found something dark and unexpected in a place he expected to be gold. That gives credence to the idea that the City did at least appear golden on the outside, whatever was contained within.

[DanAxe]

To be clear, he doesn't actually say that. He claims they expected the power of the gods but "it was black". This seems to imply that the city was black, but it doesn't necessarily have to. Especially since Tevinter has records from mages before the First Blight indicating the City did indeed appear Golden prior to that. It indicates that Cory found something dark and unexpected in a place he expected to be gold. That gives credence to the idea that the City did at least appear golden on the outside, whatever was contained within.

 

Yes that is also true. But what I'm trying to say is that either Golden or Black, this City at some point must have co-existed with Arlathan if they are not the same city. And if they co-existed I can't see how the prideful Evanuris would just ignore this city.

[Aren]

There is no evidence of any connection between the golden city/the black city and the Evanuris that I am aware of. The only evidence we really have on it is that it was golden before the first blight, that there is a empty seat there and you can see it everywhere in the fade. Other than that we have knowledge that the ancient Neromenian tribes and the later Tevinter Imperium thought it was the seat of their creator deity later known to Andrestians as the Maker and that Solas denies any connection of the ancient elves to it.

The girl called Anduril often dwelled with the forces of the black city while failed to control them multiple times.

As far as i'm concerned she is an Evanuris who entered the abyss

The black city may not be related to them,but as far as i'm concerned both DUmat and Anduril(this one even survived while build an armor) proved to know on how to enter on it

[TraiHarder]

Knowing that he has twisted the truth doesn't mean we should automatically assume he's lying, especially when it doesn't make sense to. He openly admits that going to the Fade and tearing down the Veil as he plans will destroy the known world. Why would he admit to that and then lie about going to the city? What's the point?  And actually Solas doesn't make a lot up.  Sure, he lies about who he is and the source of his knowledge, but the information he gives you is generally true.

A theory is based on available evidence and reasoned speculation. That's how you make a good theory. What you don't do is make things up without a shred of evidence and deny everything that contradicts your idea in allcaps and insults.  For the record, Cory only half-remembers his trip to the Golden City, plus we have word of god writer confirmation that the City appeared Golden before Cory got there.

 

Can you give me a reason to think they are in the Golden City?  Solas says creating the Veil trapped them and seems to imply they're trapped in a non-Fade pocket dimension like the Crossroads.  But the City is in the Fade, not a pocket dimension, so it doesn't make sense that they would be there.

 

For one he never says ANYTHING about the City BECAUSE HE DOESNT HAVE TO. What simple part of everything in this world don't you understand that one doesn't have to mention anything for it to be true. I never accused Solas of lying so please read my post in their entirety. I said he isn't trustworthy an most likely isn't telling us the whole truth. Did you get that because it was fairly simple.

 

An what have a made up? You obviously don't get how theory crafting works do you? Nothing I have stated contradicts a thing I've previously stated. Especially seeing as you actually give no evidence of these contradictions. An for the record Cory seems to remember the event very well he says nothing of partially remembering anything especially seeming as his mind had thought him still in the imperium an wtf does the City appearing golden have to do with anything? Duh it appears golden when see it with out own eyes thank you Catherine Obvious.

 

Ive already given my reason that you obviously didn't read. You do know the Veil is like the wall between the Fade an the real world right? So in what world how do you get that Oh he said he create the veil SO THEY MUST BE IN THE NON FADE PORTION RIGHT???  Because its not like we have this Golden City that nooooot many people have been able to go to. An the only ones that came back said OH it wasn't really Golden it was Black an d Tainted. HMMMMMMMMM WERID RIGHT?!?!?! Because I mean its not like the City could be a pocket dimension of its own within then fade right? I mean if that would make you feel better with the whole Polly Pocket thing.
 

[Ashagar]

 

The girl called Anduril often dwelled with the forces of the black city while failed to control them multiple times.

As far as i'm concerned she is an Evanuris who entered the abyss

The black city may not be related to them,but as far as i'm concerned both DUmat and Anduril(this one even survived while build an armor) proved to know on how to enter on it

 

 

Minor issue, the black city wasn't black when the Evanuris were running around, it was golden until the city was breached by corrpheus and co thousands of years later, its not just the chant that states that, records from dreamers also noted it was golden until then and the developers themselves stated the city was golden until the first blight. Anduril went into the void and tried to control it yes but that's not a mention to the black city as the city would have been golden at that time.

[Heimdall]

For one he never says ANYTHING about the City BECAUSE HE DOESNT HAVE TO. What simple part of everything in this world don't you understand that one doesn't have to mention anything for it to be true. I never accused Solas of lying so please read my post in their entirety. I said he isn't trustworthy an most likely isn't telling us the whole truth. Did you get that because it was fairly simple.

 I point out that he never says anything because there's no indication whatsoever in the game that he has any interest in the City.  That doesn't mean it can't be true, but that doesn't put any points in its favor either.  And he is very forthright in Trespasser about his goals, it doesn't makes sense that he would exclude something that big while freely telling us his plans will probably destroy the world.  So your speculation is baseless and unlikely.
 

An what have a made up? You obviously don't get how theory crafting works do you? Nothing I have stated contradicts a thing I've previously stated. Especially seeing as you actually give no evidence of these contradictions. An for the record Cory seems to remember the event very well he says nothing of partially remembering anything especially seeming as his mind had thought him still in the imperium an wtf does the City appearing golden have to do with anything? Duh it appears golden when see it with out own eyes thank you Catherine Obvious.

What you've said has no basis in what we've been presented with in game and Trespasser. And relies on denying what we're told in Trespasser could have any truth to it out of hand (Which, given your admission that you haven't even played it yourself, makes you very hard to take seriously). And no, Cole states that Cory's memory of that time is chaotic and confused.
 

Ive already given my reason that you obviously didn't read. You do know the Veil is like the wall between the Fade an the real world right? So in what world how do you get that Oh he said he create the veil SO THEY MUST BE IN THE NON FADE PORTION RIGHT???  Because its not like we have this Golden City that nooooot many people have been able to go to. An the only ones that came back said OH it wasn't really Golden it was Black an d Tainted. HMMMMMMMMM WERID RIGHT?!?!?! Because I mean its not like the City could be a pocket dimension of its own within then fade right? I mean if that would make you feel better with the whole Polly Pocket thing.

The Golden City is visible in the Fade, it's there. It's not a pocket dimension, which are not present in the Fade. If they were, people would be able to see them just as they can see the City. But they can't.

We know the City was visibly Golden prior to the First Blight. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but we don't know what is within the City, at all, or what Cory and his ilk did to unleash the darkness the found and stain it.

[robertthebard]

Cory says in Legacy that when he entered the Golden City it was already Black. We can take the word of the Chantry over his ofc, but i'd rather take the word of someone who actually was there when it happened, than the story told and retold (and most likely changed with each passing generation) by the Chantry.
 
And if Arlathan and the Black City are 2 different cities, then ofc they had to co-exist, because before the veil, the fade and the physical world werent separated as they are now, so in a way they both existed in the same "dimension".
 
EDIT: I think the problem here is that im saying Black City and Arlathan (if not the same place) co-existed. Maybe if i phrase it differently:
If they are not the same city, then the GOLDEN City and Arlathan must have co-existed at some point, way before the fall of the elves and way before Tevinter came into play. Dont you think that's very possible and very likely true?

It would be safe to say that they did, if the Golden City was indeed the seat of the Maker, then it would have been there before Arlathan was, if we believe that the Maker then created everyone else. Regarding what Cory saw, the change could have been instantaneous, considering the nature of the place where the city lies. It's also possible that what he says is absolutely correct, and it was already black, we don't have enough information to say one way or the other. We do know that people dreaming in the Fade have seen it as Golden, and we know that when we see it in the Fade now it's black.

The only other thing we know from literature both in and out of game is that the Imperium saw Arlathan, in the physical world, whilst people were still dreaming in the Fade seeing the Golden City, and the Veil already existed. Since both of these stories are true, then it's impossible for "Arlathan is the Golden/Black City" to be true.

[Judas Bock]

I personally believe that the Black/Golden City is Arlathan. To mention something that has not been brought up in this thread yet, the codex entry Arlathan: Part One contains the following:

 

"In those ages, our people called all the land Elvhenan [...] And at the center of the world stood the great city of Arlathan [...]"

 

So, as history remembers it, Arlathan stood in the centre of the world. Meanwhile, the Black/Golden City is located in the centre of the Fade. Maybe that is what history remembers.

 

 

Regarding the Fade before Veil, I don't think it was separated from the rest of the world like some here argue. It was a part of it. It wasn't, perhaps, easily accessible, but under the right circumstances one could experience it.

 

I see it a bit like experiencing sight. You have to open your eyes to see things, but that doesn't mean that what you see is not part of the world. I think the Fade worked similarily in that you had to achieve a certain state of mind to experience the fade, but it was always there, even if you didn't directly experience it.

 

Relating this to the shattered library, it was built by intertwining the physical world and the Fade. It's like a house that's built of wood and stone, except in this case the wood is physical and the stone is made from the Fade. When the Veil was put up it's not so much that it lost its connection to the fade as it is the wood and the stone couldn't interact the way they had. This lead to the whole structure crumbling, because the physical parts were dependent on the Fade part and vice versa.

 

If it had been built entirely from Fade stuff, maybe it wouldn't have broken, and maybe that's what Arlathan was, and thus how it survived to become the Black/Golden City.

[SandiKay0]

Someone figured out the timeline in the lore section. They figured out that Arlathan fell around 5 or 6 thousand yrs ago. Which means that some time before that Solas raised the veil cutting off the flow of magic which many of the cities built upon. The elven slaves raised up against their masters after their gods were locked away, causing a civil war. Which the tevinters then used to re-enslave the elves and destroy what was left of Arlathan.

If the fade is portayed as a perception of the real world, then it could be that the golden city could be a percieved memory of what Arlathan was golden on the outside but black and corrupted on the inside.

Cory does say when he attacked Haven that he was confused for a thousand yrs but no more.

Also, I am confused why people belive that the old gods are aspects of the elven gods since they are trapped at least 5 or 6 thousand years before the old gods suddenly go silent a thousand yrs ago. I am asking for clairification only.

[robertthebard]

Someone figured out the timeline in the lore section. They figured out that Arlathan fell around 5 or 6 thousand yrs ago. Which means that some time before that Solas raised the veil cutting off the flow of magic which many of the cities built upon. The elven slaves raised up against their masters after their gods were locked away, causing a civil war. Which the tevinters then used to re-enslave the elves and destroy what was left of Arlathan.

If the fade is portayed as a perception of the real world, then it could be that the golden city could be a percieved memory of what Arlathan was golden on the outside but black and corrupted on the inside.

Cory does say when he attacked Haven that he was confused for a thousand yrs but no more.

Also, I am confused why people belive that the old gods are aspects of the elven gods since they are trapped at least 5 or 6 thousand years before the old gods suddenly go silent a thousand yrs ago. I am asking for clairification only.

Because it is necessary for them to be so for their theories to work. We can't have established lore interfering with conspiracies.

[SandiKay0]

All righty then lol.

[Poledo]

"Before the fall of Arlathan, even before Arlathan itself, the civilization of the elves stretched across all of Thedas like a great, indolent cat."

 

If they were that far reaching, it could be any of hundreds of elvhen cities.

[myahele]

If doesn't make any sense that the Golden/Black City is the only thing unchanging in the Fade if it's just a memory of ancient elves. 

 

Unless the City predated the Elves, I believe the city to have been a feat of unimaginable Elvhen engineering that took elves alot of resources and time to complete

[Wulfram]

Arlathan could have existed both in the fade and in the physical realm, and the Golden City could be the fade part of it that was severed.

[TraiHarder]

 I point out that he never says anything because there's no indication whatsoever in the game that he has any interest in the City.  That doesn't mean it can't be true, but that doesn't put any points in its favor either.  And he is very forthright in Trespasser about his goals, it doesn't makes sense that he would exclude something that big while freely telling us his plans will probably destroy the world.  So your speculation is baseless and unlikely.
 
What you've said has no basis in what we've been presented with in game and Trespasser. And relies on denying what we're told in Trespasser could have any truth to it out of hand (Which, given your admission that you haven't even played it yourself, makes you very hard to take seriously). And no, Cole states that Cory's memory of that time is chaotic and confused.
 
The Golden City is visible in the Fade, it's there. It's not a pocket dimension, which are not present in the Fade. If they were, people would be able to see them just as they can see the City. But they can't.

We know the City was visibly Golden prior to the First Blight. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but we don't know what is within the City, at all, or what Cory and his ilk did to unleash the darkness the found and stain it.

 

Dude really stop because again your giving nothing. Wow Solas hasn't said anything about the city to us yes because hes told us everything. Once you can actually make a real argument other than Solas didn't mention it then maybe I can take you seriously. I don't need to play Trespasser to hear him say nothing of the City to make a Theory oh the City you idiot. You dumb arguments of Solas didn't say it means it didn't happen are baseless and dumb ya I can do that too.

 

An just because the out side of the city is visible somewhere doesn't mean it cant lead somewhere else. It could be a gatewy for all we know BUT THATS THE POINT WE KNOW NOTHING OF THE CITY!!!!!! OMG

 

An Prior? Its still visibly golden this is why Cory and the Gang, don't call them ilk they are amazing people, wouldn't have known it was already tainted an black within. An released? You mean caught like a infection? For all we know nothing come from the City other than them I'm sure Cory would have remembered if something other than them came from the City.

[leaguer of one]

He says the elves destroyed themselves with civil war, but the civilization and the city, even though it was a shadow of its former glory, weren't necessarily wiped off the map.  He also likens Tevinter to a carrion bird devouring a corpse, Arlathan is the corpse, but apparently still strong enough to hold out.

 

3. The isn't clear and it the distinction doesn't matter, point is his account isn't reliable.

4. Sure, it was created with magic.  Its existence is tied to the Fade.  The Fade is what's holding it together, or was holding it together.  All of these might explain why Cole thinks its part of the Fade, but it doesn't change the fact that it isn't.

 

5. http://blog.bioware....me-1-an-errata/- Written from an in universe perspective, like the rest of the book.

 

6.  We're talking about an entire civilization of eye witnesses, all of whom recorded the Golden City as Golden for thousands of years.  By that standard, you'll only accept that the golden city was ever golden if you go back in time and see it yourself.  Come on, that's ridiculous, that's denial in the face of overwhelming evidence.

3.Yes it matters. If his memory is confuse then what he states happen is dismissable. If he is confused what he saw it mean what he states happen is valid but he did not understand why everything going on in the golden city happen.

 

4.If Cole says it's part of the fade it part of the fade. He has a sense and understanding of it that is far better then any modern person of thedas.

 

5.This is what it says..

"3. The isn't clear and it the distinction doesn't matter, point is his account isn't reliable.

4. Sure, it was created with magic.  Its existence is tied to the Fade.  The Fade is what's holding it together, or was holding it together.  All of these might explain why Cole thinks its part of the Fade, but it doesn't change the fact that it isn't.

 

5. http://blog.bioware....me-1-an-errata/- Written from an in universe perspective, like the rest of the book.

 

"Page 12: The timeline states that the Old Gods whispered to humanity from the Black City in -2800 Ancient. At this time, the legendary city would still be known as “The Golden City,” as it was not yet sullied by the presence of men."

 

Nothing there states they saw it. Only what they called it. If we are arguing about what the city was call , you would have a point...But we are not.

 

6.Sorry, history and info from that time is not valid enough to be absolute. Much of tevinter history was destroyed due to the first blight and the many years they took beat it. We have no info state what we saw is what they say. The name of the black city only spread because of the chantry which was created years after the end of the first blight.

[Cobra's_back]

I don't think the Black City is even connected to the ancient elves. The Black City is connected to the taint. Avernus says that all the answers about the powers in the taint are there.

 

And it would SUCK, hard, if the taint was connected to the ancient elves. That would basically mean that everything wrong in Thedas right now has some ancient elf behind it.

 

 

Why is the Veil there? Ancient Elves

Why are there darkspawn? Ancient Elves

Why are there red lyrium? Ancient Elves, well Titans too but mostly ancient elves.

Why are there Archdemons? Ancient Elves

 

 

I'm not saying it was Ancient Elves

 

but it was Ancient Elves...

I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Ancient Elves. They killed a certain Titan for his blood to fuel their magic. 

[ModernAcademic]

If doesn't make any sense that the Golden/Black City is the only thing unchanging in the Fade if it's just a memory of ancient elves. 

 

Unless the City predated the Elves, I believe the city to have been a feat of unimaginable Elvhen engineering that took elves alot of resources and time to complete

 

This has made me wonder: what if the Fade irradiates from the Black City? What if it's a construct from the real world that generates all things in the Fade through magic, that's been emanating from the City itself - or the Gods locked in it - for millenia?

 

Like you said, the Black City can't be ethereal. It must be real. Maybe it's a fundamental part of Arlathan that was segregated from the other parts in the real world. And the act of raising the Veil blackened it somehow, because it exterminated the natural magical link between them. 

 

Now for a bit of wild and crazy speculation:

Maybe that darkness surrounding it means the City died? Or something that was alive within it perished? Thus the taint would be an infection, caught by something that is dead and deteriorating? Darkspawn do look as thought they are dead. As if all life was sucked from them. A magic that turns life into death. Like a plague.

[Incantrix]

I don't think the Black City is even connected to the ancient elves. The Black City is connected to the taint. Avernus says that all the answers about the powers in the taint are there.

And it would SUCK, hard, if the taint was connected to the ancient elves. That would basically mean that everything wrong in Thedas right now has some ancient elf behind it.


Why is the Veil there? Ancient Elves
Why are there darkspawn? Ancient Elves
Why are there red lyrium? Ancient Elves, well Titans too but mostly ancient elves.
Why are there Archdemons? Ancient Elves


I'm not saying it was Ancient Elves

but it was Ancient Elves...

Itd be more like:

Ancient elves had the ancient arcanic knowledge to know how all these dangerous things could be manipulated and used.

For example, its pretty clear that ancient elves lived harmoniously with spirits without them becoming hostile. Its only the mundane lessar races that corrupted them into demons the moment they cross the veil.

[myahele]

Now for a bit of wild and crazy speculation:

Maybe that darkness surrounding it means the City died? Or something that was alive within it perished? Thus the taint would be an infection, caught by something that is dead and deteriorating? Darkspawn do look as thought they are dead. As if all life was sucked from them. A magic that turns life into death. Like a plague.

 

I am thinking along those lines as well. Perhaps the Golden City was constructed using the same materials that it took to make an Eluvian? Afterall, an Eluvian looks gold and it can be tainted and turned black as seen with Dalish Origins in DAO.

[robertthebard]

6.Sorry, history and info from that time is not valid enough to be absolute. Much of tevinter history was destroyed due to the first blight and the many years they took beat it. We have no info state what we saw is what they say. The name of the black city only spread because of the chantry which was created years after the end of the first blight.

Just to be clear here, you're saying that established lore cannot be relied upon because you have a theory that contradicts it?

Modifié par robertthebard, 03 octobre 2015 - 02:28 .