314 réponses à ce sujet

[Xcorpyo]

Wow, seven pages of ‘Solas didn’t say anything about it, so you’re wrong’. I admit I have to admire your complete faith in the guy that makes Loki look like a boyscout, but to each it’s own.

 

After I played The Descent and I found out that Titans are real(hmmm), I had to reconsider all my earlier preconceptions about the city in the Fade.

 

If Titans are real, and Titans are ‘alive’, then it’s reasonable to think that they possess some kind of consciousness/spirit, that could pass into the realm of the Fade in the unlikely event of their ‘death’ or destruction at the hand of the elven ‘gods’. So the ‘city’ we see in the Fade could not even be a city in the first place, but the spirit of a dead/dreaming Titan.

 

And if the City is a spirit, we can assume that it act like any other spirit of the Fade. We know that some spirits that come in contact with mortals in the Fade can be changed/transformed into demons. So maybe when said spirit came in contact with the elves/dreamers travelling the Fade, it was ‘tainted’ somehow, a ‘taint’ he can pass to anyone foolish enough to get close to it(and we know from earlier games that spirits(even the demons) are too afraid to get near the thing, at least the spirits of present day.

 

One piece of evidence that can point to the connection between the Fade and the Titans comes from The Descent DLC, when we find out that Titans(or that particular one) stirs only when the Veil is breached in a major way, the Breach Cory created at the Temple of the Sacred Ashes being the last time happened, the other time being over 1000 years ago according to the dwarfs, and we know that roughly 1300 years ago Cory was at it yet again, breaching the Veil to have a nice stroll through the not so shinny city.

 

My theory is this. At one point in the past, the elven pantheon somehow manages to kill a Titan, or at least trap his soul in the Fade, thus making him harmless. I’m leaning towards the later option, because it will make the next part of the theory more believable(NOT), and maybe if they kill the Titan it’s blood becomes inert. So no living Titan, no living Titan blood(lyrium), therefore less magic. I don’t think they would have liked that.

 

They somehow manage to raise the Titan’s body(filled with magic juice) to the surface with the help of Fade magic, and build and entire city inside it. Since the soul of the Titan in the Fade is still connected to the physical body in some way(this is pre Veil), any modification to it’s body is mirrored to it’s spirit in the Fade. So the elves get two cities at the price of one.

 

Yes, it’s true that the elves don’t mention a GoldenCity found in the centre of the Fade, but they do mention Arlathan, a city found in the centre of the world, and in an age where the Fade was so intrinsically tied to the real world, it was the same thing in their view.

 

Everything is fine for a while, then Solas throws a sissy fit at the ‘death’ of Mythal, the Veil is up, and everything that was built with the help of Fade magic goes bye bye.  And that includes the magic keeping the Titan’s body(Arlathan) on the surface. The city is sunk. The remaining elves build a new Arlathan, the one the humans destroy in -975 Ancient. Later, some dwarves find the city underground, filled to the brim with lyrium that  sings to them, they believe it’s their precious Stone(and maybe it is),  they decide to move in all the nice empty buildings, sniff some lyrium and protect the Titan, and their descendants are the guys we fight in the Descent DLC.

 

Was the GoldenCity golden at any point in the past? Perhaps, or maybe it was just an illusion to trap some idiot dreamer in getting to it, thus releasing the taint inside it and expedite it’s release.  If the Black/Golden City it’s the soul of the Titan the elven gods defeated a long time ago, it stands to reason it might want to escape somehow.  The first step is to weaken the Veil, and the blight managed to do that marvellously. After all, many deaths in one place will weaken the Veil, and the darkspawn washed the entire world in blood.

 

We know that spirits/demons can possess  even rock if enough lyrium is present, so maybe if the Veil is down the Titan’s spirit will be free to take control of it’s body once again, or control other bodies of rock, if enough lyrium is present nearby.

 

If we go for the words of Cory in Legacy, the city looked golden from the Fade, but it was black when they entered it. Maybe is right and wrong at the same time.

Maybe the gold was just an illusion that ended the second the trap was sprung.

Maybe it really was golden, but since we know Fade and blood magic don’t mix well, it was tainted the second the ritual was completed, and so when Cory stepped in, he thought it was so even before his little stunt.

 

My question is are the Old Gods even real? I mean, the old priests of Tevinter heard some voices from the Fade/Golden City, they were given some minor gifts, and got the “Come to the GoldenCity, we have cookies” message.

 

Did they heard the  voices of the elven gods trapped in the Fade? And they used different names because the Vints might know the real ones they had as elven gods, and the Vints weren’t foolish enough to serve the old gods of their slaves, or release the gods of the people they just enslaved. Did they gave the Vints just enough information to release them, but nothing more? Information like the location of their dragon Horcruxes and their keys…after all, the 7 magisters survived the trip to the Fade in the flesh, and the only way to do that is to have the Anchor, and I think every elven god had his own key.

 

Or maybe they heard the voices of the 7 tainted elven gods trapped in the Veil(like Andruil before her showdown with Mythal, but all at once). Different names for the reasons listed above.

 

Or were the voices just another trick of Solas, tricking them into believing they were hearing several different gods. He gave them some blood magic, the location of the 7 Horcruxes of the imprisoned elven gods and their keys, hoping that the second the magisters use blood magic and the keys to enter the Fade(a bad mix), the backlash would kill both the magisters and the souls trapped there, the only thing he would have to do being to kill the remaining Horcruxes, a job that is almost done. And all this was tied to his “I had a plan!” line from Trespasser. The guy should stop trying to save his people before he somehow manages to kill them all. Not even Dobby’s attempts to ‘save’ Harry were this bad.  He gave the Orb to Cory because he knew Cory could open it, because Cory did it once before when he used the keys of ‘Dumat’ and the other OG to enter the Fade in the flesh without dying.

 

Or maybe the ‘voices’ were the work of the tainted Titan soul trapped in the Fade, that was hoping to use the magisters to rip a hole in the Veil big enough for it to exit. Or at least to send some of his new agents(the tainted magisters) to destroy the horcruxes of the elves that imprisoned him in the Fade, and order them to find another way to destroy the Veil. After all, Cory’s desire to enter the GC again might be an hidden order from the Titan, and he only thinks he’s doing it because he wants it. The same way he played the GW in releasing him.

 

Truth is, the only certain thing we found out from the codex entries so far is that nothing is certain. We can’t completely trust legends, we can’t completely trust the stories people have about their pantheons, or any story we hear in the game so far, which proved to be mostly false. We can’t even trust Solas, because even if some of the things he said are true, he might still be keeping stuff secret or withholding important information about some of the things he told us about so far. On the other hand, this is a most fertile soil in which crackpot theories to grow, and I do love me some interesting  crackpot theories.

 

Wait until they find the spaceship in DA4. 

[Aulis Vaara]

The Black City is the elven part of Skyhold. Since it is where the Veil was made, it makes sense that it would be anchored there and thus visible from the Fade while still unchanging.

[leaguer of one]

The Black City is the elven part of Skyhold. Since it is where the Veil was made, it makes sense that it would be anchored there and thus visible from the Fade while still unchanging.

Being that Skyhold is elven in the first place and own by Solas, that would be a big no.

[leaguer of one]

 

Wow, seven pages of ‘Solas didn’t say anything about it, so you’re wrong’. I admit I have to admire your complete faith in the guy that makes Loki look like a boyscout, but to each it’s own.

 

 

After I played The Descent and I found out that Titans are real(hmmm), I had to reconsider all my earlier preconceptions about the city in the Fade.

 

 

If Titans are real, and Titans are ‘alive’, then it’s reasonable to think that they possess some kind of consciousness/spirit, that could pass into the realm of the Fade in the unlikely event of their ‘death’ or destruction at the hand of the elven ‘gods’. So the ‘city’ we see in the Fade could not even be a city in the first place, but the spirit of a dead/dreaming Titan.

 

 

And if the City is a spirit, we can assume that it act like any other spirit of the Fade. We know that some spirits that come in contact with mortals in the Fade can be changed/transformed into demons. So maybe when said spirit came in contact with the elves/dreamers travelling the Fade, it was ‘tainted’ somehow, a ‘taint’ he can pass to anyone foolish enough to get close to it(and we know from earlier games that spirits(even the demons) are too afraid to get near the thing, at least the spirits of present day.

 

 

One piece of evidence that can point to the connection between the Fade and the Titans comes from The Descent DLC, when we find out that Titans(or that particular one) stirs only when the Veil is breached in a major way, the Breach Cory created at the Temple of the Sacred Ashes being the last time happened, the other time being over 1000 years ago according to the dwarfs, and we know that roughly 1300 years ago Cory was at it yet again, breaching the Veil to have a nice stroll through the not so shinny city.

 

 

My theory is this. At one point in the past, the elven pantheon somehow manages to kill a Titan, or at least trap his soul in the Fade, thus making him harmless. I’m leaning towards the later option, because it will make the next part of the theory more believable(NOT), and maybe if they kill the Titan it’s blood becomes inert. So no living Titan, no living Titan blood(lyrium), therefore less magic. I don’t think they would have liked that.

 

 

They somehow manage to raise the Titan’s body(filled with magic juice) to the surface with the help of Fade magic, and build and entire city inside it. Since the soul of the Titan in the Fade is still connected to the physical body in some way(this is pre Veil), any modification to it’s body is mirrored to it’s spirit in the Fade. So the elves get two cities at the price of one.

 

 

Yes, it’s true that the elves don’t mention a GoldenCity found in the centre of the Fade, but they do mention Arlathan, a city found in the centre of the world, and in an age where the Fade was so intrinsically tied to the real world, it was the same thing in their view.

 

 

Everything is fine for a while, then Solas throws a sissy fit at the ‘death’ of Mythal, the Veil is up, and everything that was built with the help of Fade magic goes bye bye.  And that includes the magic keeping the Titan’s body(Arlathan) on the surface. The city is sunk. The remaining elves build a new Arlathan, the one the humans destroy in -975 Ancient. Later, some dwarves find the city underground, filled to the brim with lyrium that  sings to them, they believe it’s their precious Stone(and maybe it is),  they decide to move in all the nice empty buildings, sniff some lyrium and protect the Titan, and their descendants are the guys we fight in the Descent DLC.

 

 

Was the GoldenCity golden at any point in the past? Perhaps, or maybe it was just an illusion to trap some idiot dreamer in getting to it, thus releasing the taint inside it and expedite it’s release.  If the Black/Golden City it’s the soul of the Titan the elven gods defeated a long time ago, it stands to reason it might want to escape somehow.  The first step is to weaken the Veil, and the blight managed to do that marvellously. After all, many deaths in one place will weaken the Veil, and the darkspawn washed the entire world in blood.

 

 

We know that spirits/demons can possess  even rock if enough lyrium is present, so maybe if the Veil is down the Titan’s spirit will be free to take control of it’s body once again, or control other bodies of rock, if enough lyrium is present nearby.

 

 

If we go for the words of Cory in Legacy, the city looked golden from the Fade, but it was black when they entered it. Maybe is right and wrong at the same time.

 

Maybe the gold was just an illusion that ended the second the trap was sprung.

 

Maybe it really was golden, but since we know Fade and blood magic don’t mix well, it was tainted the second the ritual was completed, and so when Cory stepped in, he thought it was so even before his little stunt.

 

 

My question is are the Old Gods even real? I mean, the old priests of Tevinter heard some voices from the Fade/Golden City, they were given some minor gifts, and got the “Come to the GoldenCity, we have cookies” message.

 

 

Did they heard the  voices of the elven gods trapped in the Fade? And they used different names because the Vints might know the real ones they had as elven gods, and the Vints weren’t foolish enough to serve the old gods of their slaves, or release the gods of the people they just enslaved. Did they gave the Vints just enough information to release them, but nothing more? Information like the location of their dragon Horcruxes and their keys…after all, the 7 magisters survived the trip to the Fade in the flesh, and the only way to do that is to have the Anchor, and I think every elven god had his own key.

 

 

Or maybe they heard the voices of the 7 tainted elven gods trapped in the Veil(like Andruil before her showdown with Mythal, but all at once). Different names for the reasons listed above.

 

 

Or were the voices just another trick of Solas, tricking them into believing they were hearing several different gods. He gave them some blood magic, the location of the 7 Horcruxes of the imprisoned elven gods and their keys, hoping that the second the magisters use blood magic and the keys to enter the Fade(a bad mix), the backlash would kill both the magisters and the souls trapped there, the only thing he would have to do being to kill the remaining Horcruxes, a job that is almost done. And all this was tied to his “I had a plan!” line from Trespasser. The guy should stop trying to save his people before he somehow manages to kill them all. Not even Dobby’s attempts to ‘save’ Harry were this bad.  He gave the Orb to Cory because he knew Cory could open it, because Cory did it once before when he used the keys of ‘Dumat’ and the other OG to enter the Fade in the flesh without dying.

 

 

Or maybe the ‘voices’ were the work of the tainted Titan soul trapped in the Fade, that was hoping to use the magisters to rip a hole in the Veil big enough for it to exit. Or at least to send some of his new agents(the tainted magisters) to destroy the horcruxes of the elves that imprisoned him in the Fade, and order them to find another way to destroy the Veil. After all, Cory’s desire to enter the GC again might be an hidden order from the Titan, and he only thinks he’s doing it because he wants it. The same way he played the GW in releasing him.

 

 

Truth is, the only certain thing we found out from the codex entries so far is that nothing is certain. We can’t completely trust legends, we can’t completely trust the stories people have about their pantheons, or any story we hear in the game so far, which proved to be mostly false. We can’t even trust Solas, because even if some of the things he said are true, he might still be keeping stuff secret or withholding important information about some of the things he told us about so far. On the other hand, this is a most fertile soil in which crackpot theories to grow, and I do love me some interesting  crackpot theories.

 

Wait until they find the spaceship in DA4. 

 

Umm....Here's the combo breaker....

 

The elven gods would of just killed the spirit part their goal was to kill them.

[Aulis Vaara]

Being that Skyhold is elven in the first place and own by Solas, that would be a big no.

A severe lack of gothic window arches contradicts you (well, except those three above the main door, for some reason). Skyhold was built in a place where there used to be an elven temple, true, but given that temple is clearly no longer there and that the environment would be absolutely perfect to preserve it, you really have to ask yourself: where did it go?

Furthermore, it suddenly makes a whole ton of sense that Corypheus made his move in the Frostback mountains, that is actually physically close to the Black City! While we don't know where the Second Sin occurred exactly, it is implied that Kirkwall played a part, again a long way south from the capital of the Imperium. And while physical location does not mean all that much for the Fade, it might mean something for that part of the Fade that is actually physical.

[leaguer of one]

A severe lack of gothic window arches contradicts you (well, except those three above the main door, for some reason). Skyhold was built in a place where there used to be an elven temple, true, but given that temple is clearly no longer there and that the environment would be absolutely perfect to preserve it, you really have to ask yourself: where did it go?

Furthermore, it suddenly makes a whole ton of sense that Corypheus made his move in the Frostback mountains, that is actually physically close to the Black City! While we don't know where the Second Sin occurred exactly, it is implied that Kirkwall played a part, again a long way south from the capital of the Imperium. And while physical location does not mean all that much for the Fade, it might mean something for that part of the Fade that is actually physical.

Just because it was rebuild does not mean it's not still elven.

 

It just mean it's design is different. 

 

Also...

 

The elven Ruins you see in trespasser are simular to gothic as well as the ones you see in DAO.

[Aulis Vaara]

The elven Ruins you see in trespasser are simular to gothic as well as the ones you see in DAO.

Exactly.

[leaguer of one]

x

[leaguer of one]

Exactly.

It was rebuilt. but the window show that elven parts remain. 

[Aulis Vaara]

You do realize Skyhold is about as far from gothic architecture as you can get, right? Thick heavy roman walls, round arches, screaming modern humans from every brick.

[leaguer of one]

You do realize Skyhold is about as far from gothic architecture as you can get, right? Thick heavy roman walls, round arches, screaming modern humans from every brick.

Reread my post. i already changed it by the time you posted this.

[Suledin]

You people...arguing about theories or whatevah.


You better ask yourself...What will happen if Solas undo the Fade and what will happen to the Black City and our world as we know now. 

Also Corypheus did say that they've discovered the dark in the City and they took it. So that'd mean that the City was corrupted prior to the Magisters entering it. 

[leaguer of one]

You people...arguing about theories or whatevah.


You better ask yourself...What will happen if Solas undo the Fade and what will happen to the Black City and our world as we know now. 

Also Corypheus did say that they've discovered the dark in the City and they took it. So that'd mean that the City was corrupted prior to the Magisters entering it. 

Since Solas has no consern over it than that would mean it's not an issue with him around. His issue is the elven gods....Most likely they are on it.

[Heimdall]

You do realize Skyhold is about as far from gothic architecture as you can get, right? Thick heavy roman walls, round arches, screaming modern humans from every brick.

 

It was rebuilt. but the window show that elven parts remain. 

 

The site is originally elven, but various codex entries indicate the fortress that stands there now is of Ferelden construction, built by some mage I think that wanted to study the site.

[leaguer of one]

The site is originally elven, but various codex entries indicate the fortress that stands there now is of Ferelden construction, built by some mage I think that wanted to study the site.

that does not mean some of the elven structure is not there or not used. i did not say it was not rebuilt, just that it's still elven in origin.

[Heimdall]

that does not mean some of the elven structure is not there or not used. i did not say it was not rebuilt, just that it's still elven in origin.

The structure isn't.

[leaguer of one]

The structure isn't.

The windows are. And I did not say the sturture are the same. Hence why I said it was rebuilt.

[Heimdall]

The windows are. And I did not say the sturture are the same. Hence why I said it was rebuilt.

That's a very shaky basis, how do you know the architect didn't simply mimic the style? Even if they did keep the windows, it doesn't make it a rebuilt elven structure. It's a new human structure with some elven widows bolted on.

[catabuca]

My theory:

 

Arlathan, seat of the sun god, Elgar'nan - sun god, city paved with gold = Golden City.

 

It turned black because Andruil brought the taint back from the void. That's also what started some of the warring between them all. There's much Solas hasn't told us about the details of that time. There's still much room for speculation.

 

When Fen'Harel created the veil, as he locked away the Evanuris he also locked away their seats of power, or at the very least Elgar'nan's, since he was top dog. That it, and they, were already tainted only gave more reason to do this. What if he could find a cure for the taint? What if he could cure them of their rage and one day bring them back? That's what he wants to do now. "I have a plan."

 

The Magisters didn't initiate the taint. It was already here, just locked underground. The Magisters became tainted when they walked the halls of Arlathan. They remained sentient because of the magic involved.

 

Elgar'nan has been trying to convince people to come and free him for a very, very long time. Sometimes he nearly succeeds. Sometimes he doesn't.

 

Why was the city golden before the Magisters breached it? Because the fade shapes itself to the expectations of those who view it. People expected to see a Golden City, so that's what they saw. Plus Elgar'nan had a bit of a stake in people thinking it was golden. Once people saw it physically, not just in their dreams, they knew it was black, and thus people's expectations changed, and everyone began to see it as black.

 

I refer you to Tales #125: What is Green?

 

What is green? Imagine I should present to you an object which, to my mind, is of indisputable greenness and ask, "Does this thing appear to you to be green?"

 

Naturally, you might say that it does, for you have come to recognize the appearance of the color of the object to be "green," associating the word with what your eyes see. But could it be my understanding of "green" differs entirely from yours? What if, perchance, you could see into my mind? You might realize that all things that I name "green" are actually "red" in your understanding.

 

Ah, without the moorings of objective truth, we are set adrift in oceans of solitary experience.

 

 

Indeed.

 

So where does the taint come from? A diseased Titan. Dwarves were originally part of Titans. A Titan became diseased, a disease of the blood. It forced out most of its dwarves, for their own sake. Cut off from their whole, they lost their connection to magic (the magic Valta now has, and that Sandal has). They eventually forgot. They are the dwarves of Orzammar, Kal-Sharok, etc. A few unlucky dwarves didn't make it. They became infected as well. Our first darkspawn. As they left the Titan, and encountered other races, they slowly added to their numbers. So see, not everything is elves.

 

Don't blindly take for granted what you read. The game makes it abundantly clear that histories are rewritten and re-interpreted to fit a narrative, a dogma, or an ideology whenever someone has the power to do so. When the Chant says that the Magisters brought back the taint, don't assume that to be true. Remember the stories of Andruil bringing back weapons from the void, and slowly going mad. Remember the ways in which the Chant has been altered over the years to suit Drakon's ideals (Shartan, anyone?). Remember how the histories the Dalish passed down for generations only had slivers of truth in them, and in fact the truth was beyond what they could have imagined. Until the game states something categorically (e.g. we know there was a 5th blight; we know Celene's power was threatened; we know Isabela ran away with a book and Anders blew up a Chantry), don't assume it happened. Maybe what you saw was red, but what happened was green.

[leaguer of one]

That's a very shaky basis, how do you know the architect didn't simply mimic the style? Even if they did keep the windows, it doesn't make it a rebuilt elven structure. It's a new human structure with some elven widows bolted on.

Not with all those elven paintings on the wall it is.(The ones before Solas painted the walls.)

[Heimdall]

Not with all those elven paintings on the wall it is.(The ones before Solas painted the walls.)

What paintings?

[leaguer of one]

What paintings?

You're kidding. Walk around every bit of skyhold , would you.

[Commander of the Grey]

Skimmed so I don't know if it's been mentioned but as far as Arlathan the bard in Trespasser sings one about the elves that states the city is in the ocean.

You could say how does she know but I think the songs have always been packed with clues just like her singing that the titans will rise when the small (?) ones unite. Or something like that.

[TraiHarder]

 

Wow, seven pages of ‘Solas didn’t say anything about it, so you’re wrong’. I admit I have to admire your complete faith in the guy that makes Loki look like a boyscout, but to each it’s own.

 

 

I like you for this statement alone. lol

[Heimdall]

You're kidding. Walk around every bit of skyhold , would you.

I don't see anything that wasn't or couldn't be a recent addition.